saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

No odd coincidence, Ivor. You're looking at the old bed of the Lys before it was canalised. The border follows the original bed of the Lys from way E of Armentières to way W of St Venant at least.

You gave a very good summary of events as we now understand them. Compliments.

And now:

If my man in the field can confirm that the farm on the photos was indeed once the Ferme Boulet, the next step will be to get hold of the pathologist's report. I have queries outstanding in Germany and have also alerted my French friend, who I hope will go and bother the Maire of St Venant about it. And if we can connect the bodies in the report to the unmarked graves in the cemetery, we'll be getting somewhere. Not there yet, but moderately hopeful.

John

john
thank you. this would explain why the field appears to be boggy.
thank you very much for the compliments. from someone of your experience and standing on the forum i am very grateful.i enjoy this sort of thing and if i can be of assistance in the future then i hope it will be OK.
i think the autopsy report could make interesting reading i attended quite a few as a police officer. we had a good Pathologist who would explain what he was looking for. very interesting. i learned a lot from him.
jumping ahead, i was wondering if, with a lot of luck and a large dose divine providence we may achieve the ultimate result. that would be fantastic. it has been done before. let us hope.

ivor

Flattery will get you nowhere, Ivor!

Seriously, though, the compliment was well earned and we should do this again. I hope that even from your base in Tywyn you will look in once or twice a day so we can have another go, if need be. Meanwhile, I shall continue my own feeble efforts on Tony's behalf.

John

Ivor, I have not been on much the last night or two, mainly because of the superior knowledge of you experts, I would be struggling to add anything. I thought it better to take a back seat whilst things are developing. I never get tired of saying thanks to everyone who has given me a tremendous lift in my search. So. it's thanks again.

Your description of how Anthony may have met his end going back over the bridge certainly has a bona-fide ring about it. This could certainly have put him in the last place that he was seen alive, the canal bank at the side of Farm Boulet. The timing of events, although approximate, all adds up. The War Crimes Investigation reports a British soldier being shot in the head at around 12 noon on the 27th which would have given him time to be there after the fighting had started early in the day.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has Anthony's death as being on the 29th but this is unlikely. His superior, RSM Goddard and all fit and able personnel were marched away to a POW camp on the 27th. There is very little likelihood of the Germans caring for Anthony from the 27th to the 29th, having to tend his wounds and feed him. No, I think that the minute RSM Goddard and any other officers marched away, the last ounce of fairness and compassion went too.

tony.
thanks for your comments. but i am no expert.i am a retired civil servant (RAF) with an interest in the BEF. who spends most of the year in Malta. as i have lots of spare time the opportunity to help someone has been very welcome.i have thoroughly enjoyed what i have been doing and the fact that we have almost certainly identified where your Uncle died is brilliant.but it is also possible that,maybe, we have re-written or clarified this particular part of the battle.I too have learned a lot about what my father went through and for that i owe you a great deal of thanks for posting this thread.
as i said i have to pull back because where i live in Wales we do not have WiFi.i will keep in touch with the forum and will be kept informed of developments by chow.
i want to thank you for the opportunity of being part of your quest, whilst we have established much from our armchairs,we have to wait now for the results of your queries and john's man on the spot. if the autopsy report can be found then who knows where that may lead.we are nearly there. just a few more pieces and the picture will be complete.

ivor.

Ivor,

It's been great being part of it all but I hope you are going to be around for the conclusion of it all. Thanks again for your interest and hard work. Our paths will cross again there's no doubt about that!

tony.
believe me i am awaiting the conclusion with a great deal of interest and have no intention of missing it. it has been a pleasure and i look forward to our paths crossing if i can be of help at any time, contact me.

good luck

ivor.

morning john.tony.
will be heading off from Loughborough to Wales shortly but, before i go.this occurred to me sometime during night.it just might be the key i needed.
Tony you said your uncle's body was found in a grave on the Calonne - Robeq road this puzzled me at the time, but last night it finally made sense. to me it completes the picture.
OK. the Germans had secured an intact bridge east of St Floris they now are able to pour men,tanks and so on to the north bank. the Calonne - St Floris rd area is now going to become a very busy holding area. but one slight problem. there are a lot of dead bodies in the area. so what do they do with them.it would not really be possible to bury them where they are. they have to be taken from the area, to where. a mass grave on the Robeq rd. this grave contained not only tony's uncles body but bodies of other 2 DLI and RWF. there are a lot of unknowns in Calonne Cemetary.
John i can not take this forward but i think that this may be an opportunity to look at those posted missing (no known grave) at St Venant as it is possible that they may actually be buried at Calonne Sur la Lys. this would be way outside my experience and ability.so i will have to pass this on if you consider it a possibility.
i believe that the picture is now complete. i think we will find that Farm Boulet is or was near the Canal on the Rue De Mote Baudet.
of course i still may be wrong. we will have to wait and see.


ivor.

Bore da Ivor,

My most recent (and local) source places Ferme Boulet to the west of St Venant, so we now have a choice of three!

No time today, but will be back tonight to see what can be done.

John

Hello Again,

Just to point out Tonys uncle was never found,he has no known grave,there is no known record of Pte Corkhill after 27th May 1940. The man buried near the Robecq Road is known as `Soldier Six` he was a wounded British Soldier murdered by an SS man on the 27th May 1940 witnesses included Victor Boulet.There was a single `innconnu`unknown found in a grave in the pasture opposite the Boulet Family home.Remember these are Three seperate incidents /events which if they `could` be linked will give Tony a way forward. Sorry but it really is too early to assume anything yet I`m speaking from past experience.Its looking promising.
Something Tony mentioned about the CWGC regarding the date of Pte Corkhills date of death given as the 29th May 1940 on their register,what this forum will be unaware of is the Germans would not let the body be buried for two days..on the 29th May 1940. Something else I should make this Forum aware of is that there are such things as `Missing Men Files` The DLI missingmen file lists Pte Corkhill as `Dead` not missing not unknown but emphatically as `Dead`.There was no effort made by the British Government to find what happened to Tony which suggests they were already aware,the Red Cross carried out an enquiry but hold no files/results.What the `Missing Men File` does have is a mispelling of Pte Corkhills name to `Corthill` next to his name is the letter `Q` and a file number.This `Q`appears on the document only three times,we do not know for sure what the `Q` stands for but we are aware that any report of war crimes or ill treatment made by repatriated PoWs were entered on a `Q`Form. If this `Q` does indeed stand for this type of form it is either `Lost` or still `classified`.The lack of effort by the Government to find the ultimate fate of Pte Corkhill suggests to me that they were already satisfied that he was `Dead`and aware of exactly how he was killed.Would the Government not tell the families what had really happened? The answer is ,for whatever reasoning,No! They made no attempt to inform the families (speaking again from a DLI angle) of Ptes Barlow and Hayton (6th DLI) murdered by the SS in 1944 nor the families of men killed when a British submarine sank an Italian transport filled with British PoWs.
There was no `War Crimes` investigation into the murder of `Soldier Six` as none of the perpertrators could be traced.I do not know how much you are aware of regarding the `War Crimes` in and around St Venant in 1940 there are believed to have been around `Sixty` British soldiers murdered here there are files on many some named the majority unknown.Forty unknowns I believe in St Venant alone (?) This is why we should proceed with caution.Keep up the good work .

Best Wishes

Jim

Thanks for the info, Jim. I do realise that it's a big job. Still, it's been done before, so...

A copy of the 2 DLI WD for say 25 May (or whenever they first moved to the St Floris - St Venant sector) to 27 May would certainly help. Could you post that or email it to me, please? And the testimony of M Boulet and his maid?

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baconwallah

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John

---

Its in the Vault John!

Thanks, Al. Never thought of that.

John

John,

I'm pleased that Verrieres has reigned us in a little. To be honest, I was getting a little carried away and I think that once your hopes are built up, it is easier to take the route that you'd prefer to take rather than the one that you should take. I have been trying to email you and Jack a copy of the St Venant War Crimes, or at least the page that this quest is based on. That is, case No 6, a British soldier, wounded in both legs, being shot in the head by an SS soldier on the land of Farm Boulet. There were two witnesses, Mr Victor Boulet aged 64 and a 20 year old girl. This British soldier was, after about three days, buried on the Robecq Road. Two years later his body (and others)was exhumed in the presence of a pathologist who took notes regarding each body. I believe that these pathologists reports are still in the custody of St Venant council officials. There is a record of where each body lay before exhumation.

If the reports say that soldier No 6 had wounds to both legs, a flesh wound to the neck and a final gunshot wound to the head, then I think it is highly likely that this soldier would be Pte Corkhill who was, I believe, operating in the area. As I have said all along, I believe that the location of Farm Boulet is vital to this enquiry. The reason being that if the farm was situated a fair distance from DLI HQ where Anthony was likely to have been at the time, then I would expect that soldier No 6 was not him and that part of my quest would, frustratingly, be closed.

Not having a military background, I might be a long way off with this next theory;- Anthony was batman to RSM Goddard who was with HQ. Whilst they would not have been tied together with a piece of string, is it not possible that where RSM Goddard was, his batman may have been expected to run errands and carry messages etc., thus creating a need to be 'not too far away' from one another. Wishful thinking perhaps, but if that was the case, it strengthens the expectation that Farm Boulet was the DLI HQ and that Anthony had reason to be in that vicinity.

It is said that 'up to sixty' murders were committed in the area but only four witnesses came forward because of fear. I think this is only partly true. It may be that the War Crimes Tribunal only called four named witnesses for whatever reason. I will read through the 250 page War Crimes document once again(!) and I will count up the witnesses. Possibly only four played any sort of major part but I am sure that there were more additional witnesses. That is to say that one person may have given their name in a statement but had been with others at the time who had also seen the murders. In any case, the War Crimes Trials were not held until, I think, 1946. By then there may well have been quite a lot of belated witnesses who, were prepared to say what they saw with reassurance that the war was over.

I have seen a document detailing where 54 bodies were buried prior to exhumation including the body of DLI lad Tom Rodgers. Many of these would have been murdered and although a good many are named, there are quite a few unknowns or 'inconnus'. Schoolboy logic again perhaps, but if witnesses were terrified to come forward how did the authorities know where all the bodies were buried? Jim has already highlighted that one 'inconnu' on this document was murdered on land occupied by Victor Boulet. This is the only mention of Victor Boulet on this one page list. Other bodies were dotted about in other areas suggesting that this would have been the body of soldier No6.

There should still be a record of where in the Communal Cemetery this body was reburied and, dare I say it again, if this body has injuries akin to those of Anthony, then it all falls into place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by teecee1941

Jim has already highlighted that one 'inconnu' on this document was murdered on land occupied by Victor Boulet. This is the only mention of Victor Boulet on this one page list. Other bodies were dotted about in other areas suggesting that this would have been the body of soldier No6.

There should still be a record of where in the Communal Cemetery this body was reburied and, dare I say it again, if this body has injuries akin to those of Anthony, then it all falls into place.

---

Exactly my reasoning, Tony.

We are hot on the trail of the Ferme Boulet and the path report, so all possibilities are still open. My friend is looking into both issues (and, he implied, enjoying it).

And yes, you are right in assuming that the RSM and his batman would be more or less in the same area. Moreover, if the RSM saw your uncle when he was being led away, he must have been close. I do not think that the Germans would have given him a grand tour of the battlefield while on his way to the PoW cage.

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Thanks for the info, Jim. I do realise that it's a big job. Still, it's been done before, so...

A copy of the 2 DLI WD for say 25 May (or whenever they first moved to the St Floris - St Venant sector) to 27 May would certainly help. Could you post that or email it to me, please? And the testimony of M Boulet and his maid?

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John

---

Hello John,
Please find attached files relating to the War Diary of 2 DLI 25th-27th May 1940

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Thanks for the info, Jim. I do realise that it's a big job. Still, it's been done before, so...

A copy of the 2 DLI WD for say 25 May (or whenever they first moved to the St Floris - St Venant sector) to 27 May would certainly help. Could you post that or email it to me, please? And the testimony of M Boulet and his maid?

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John

---

Hello John/Tony,
It has indeed been done before hopefully it will be done again,but this is only the beginning .I can answer the question relating to Anthonys proximity to RSM Goddard as it was RSM Goddard who asked the Germans if they could take Anthony with them it was also RSM Goddard who directed the Field Ambulance back in Anthonys direction, and Anthony was having a `lucid` conversation with RSM Goddard just prior to them being marched off.RSM Goddard also described Pte Corkhills wounds at the time.
Only four cases are covered in depth within the file there are the briefest of descriptions relating to the incident from the witnesses concerning `Soldier Six`.If Tony wants to forward these on I`m sure he will.I have the files which ,with respect, I will not be posting as some pages go off into detail of other cases in the area and their horrific nature I feel will lead away from the goal of establishing Ferme Boulet
Best Wishes

Jim

Jim, thanks for the WD pages. I had hoped to find some hints to the location of Bn HQ, but nothing doing. It's still not entirely clear where the RWF and DLI were, relative to the town of St Venant.

Thanks also for trying to keep my sensitive soul from harm. Not that I'm easily shocked, after 30 years in operating theatres and A&E, but it's the thought that counts.

Off now for some more digging in my library. Next week I expect to have more news from France.

John

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Jim, thanks for the WD pages. I had hoped to find some hints to the location of Bn HQ, but nothing doing. It's still not entirely clear where the RWF and DLI were, relative to the town of St Venant.

Thanks also for trying to keep my sensitive soul from harm. Not that I'm easily shocked, after 30 years in operating theatres and A&E, but it's the thought that counts.

Off now for some more digging in my library. Next week I expect to have more news from France.

John

---

Hello John,
Sorry I`m sure you can stomach the details ,the reason for not posting was to protect any family member stumbling across something they would rather not know its different if like Tony you seek the truth some I have found would rather not know.The files are open in the National Archives for to research so they are open to the public.Also I would not like to deflect from Tonys aim.I`m sure you understand.
Best Wishes

Jim

As I said, Jim, it's the thought that counts.

Tony meanwhile sent me the typed (by him) text, queer Franglais and all, and it's very interesting indeed. We have been searching to the east of St Venant, but from the text it is clear that we should look on the other, western side. My 1917 map (detail attd) shows that the likely location is in a range of two map squares, i.e. 2000 yards along the Bas Hamel road.

My French friend told me that his information too indicates that the Ferme Boulet was to the west of the town on the Bas Hamel road. Locating it should now be much easier. He will visit the Mairie of St Venant next week to check the archives for M Boulet and while he's there to have a shufti at the path report as well. We'll see. Watch this space.

John

Attachment 2801

hi guys.
just a quickie. where ever i looked i have never seen any ref to 2DLI ever being further west than St Venant Cemetary. also bear in mind that once the Germans crossed the Lys they went east to attack Merville.
as teecee established very early on in this.the Boulet was a common name within the area so it is quite possible that there would be a number of farm boulet's
while all info is helpful some of this is confusing the issue.
we know that 2 DLI were tasked with holding St Flores on the 24th there is no evidence that they moved position before being overrun. i am very sorry but i have some misgivings about the positions stated in war diarys. we need to await info from the contacts and if we are wrong then reasses our position

ivor

Ivor, I've spent most of the afternoon and the evening digging around in my extensive library and have drawn you the attached map. Two coys of 2 DLI were spread along the Rue d'Aire, one of them Tom Rodgers who is remembered by a memorial plaque on the spot where he was killed. St Floris was the responsibility of 1 RWF and they repulsed a German attack there on 24th May before advancing to capture St Venant. The French named a road after LtCol Harrison on the other side of the canal. Later (c.26th May) one coy of 2 DLI (probably C Coy) was moved to the left flank of the RWF, at St Floris. The right flank of the brigade was held by the Berks at Bas Hamel itself.

The info about the Ferme Boulet being on the Bas Hamel road does not come from any war diary (the RWF WD is confused, the DLI WD gives no place names) but from the extract of the War Crimes hearings Tony sent me. My friend on the spot confirms it after enquiries made earlier this week. He will try to pinpoint the location next week.

The Germans (3 Pz Div) crossed east of St Floris and then turned right to Merville, leaving St Venant to the SS Verfügungs Div. You were certainly right there.

John

Attachment 2813

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all.
I wrote the following last night before i saw johns latest post.you beat me to Rue Colonel Harrison.

If I seemed a bit short in my last post Im sorry, but I had just realized something that I found quite upsetting. which I will not include here. but since I pulled back on Friday I have not pulled out of the quest. During my searches I have acquired a large amount of info, small pieces from a large no of places. Pulling back has allowed me time to put this into some sort of order.
In all that I have read nowhere is there any indication that 2DLI was ever anywhere further west than St Floris except that after 27^th Bn HQ was moved to St Venant Cemetery.Neither is there any record, that i have found,apart from the 2 RWF Cos sent to take the bridge west of Robeq of RWF being any further west of St Venant.


What follows is based on known fact from entries in war records and several ww2 forum and a German military historical (English language ) site.

Fact. 3 Panzer took St Venant/St Floris the day before the attack by RWF/ 2DLI.

Fact. 3 Panzer contained Bridge Building units.

Fact. in one article I read the bridge was referred to as a TEMPORARY Bridge..???? Built by 3 Panzer.

Fact In RWF War Diary it states that Bridge Building Material was captured in ST FLORIS area.

Fact. In RWF War Diary it states that engineers were seen approaching from the Haverskerque direction but unfortunately were engaged before they could be captured. ???? From across the fields ?. (further relevance later).

Fact. On 24^th 2DLI tasked with Defiance of ST Floris. ??? and bridge

Fact. In RWF War Diary. 27^th May Bn HQ suffered direct hit. no further contact with HQ. persons missing Lt Colonel Harrison and others.
Fact. From 2DLI.Early 27^Th .Col Harrison issuing orders AT BRIDGE area. ??? Was RWF HQ also near Bridge.

Fact. Rendezvous for retreating forces was Haverskirque

Fact. From 2DLI. Col Harrison escaped over bridge. Killed SHORT TIME LATER…???? Col Harrison heading for Rendezvous. across fields. ***** Village of Le Corbie on the Haverskirque to Merville Rd,towards the Western end, has a road named Rue Du Colonel Harrison.

Fact. From 2DLI Col Harrison issued orders that anyone who could was to get over the bridge. ????? Did RSM Goddard order Private Corkhill to go.

Fact. From 2DLI.About 12.00 Private Corkhill seen by Goddard and others ( now P.O.W.s) wounded by the canal in both legs and neck ( not Critical ) assured by Germans that he would get treatment..

Fact. Private Corkhill never seen again.

On 29^th May . I suspect, that a number of local people including the 2 witnesses under the command of an S.S. Officer were collecting bodies within the area so it could be used as a holding area prior to crossing the bridge.

A British soldier was found alive but wounded in both legs. We know the result.

Ok. from here on things are very vague. we know that Private Corkhill had left his ’Dog Tags’ in the UK. thus making identification virtually impossible. If john can obtain some info from the autopsy report then we might get a bit further.

I also believe that Farm Boulet was near the bridge.

Finally in the page scanned from ‘ The Red Dragon’ it says. ’’Through the gap EAST of StVenant the enemies armored columns had advanced on Merville''

My own feeling is that it was Private Corkhill that was executed. and buried in the Robeq Rd. and that he was soldier 6 and is buried in the Cemetery at Calonne sur le lys

Is the burial plot of Soldier 6 known ???.

But of course I may be totally wrong.


ivor

hi
as a result of reading john's latest post.i wonder if we are looking at an entirely different phase of the battle. the only actions i am aware of that took place to the west was when the RWF Bn Hq tried to pull back to Haverskirque when they came under heave fire. or after the St Venant bridge was blown when many troops had to swim the river.
We know that the German troops would be to the west of Haverskirque,as they had access to the bridges at Robeq. so it is likely that Tom Rodgers was killed in a different action.
whatever units were to the east were effectively wiped out. this would leave the eastern flank of St Venant open which would be good reason for blowing the bridge as the town was becoming increasingly indefensible.

will keep looking when i can

ivor

You wonder if we are looking at an entirely different phase of the battle.

We are indeed, Ivor. While you have been producing an impressive number of facts which taken together form a first class description of the final hours of the RWF's stand at St Venant and St Floris against 3 Pz Div, I have been looking at the last stand of the DLI (and the Berks) against the SS Verfügungsdivision. The two actions are, although related in a larger context, the defence of the Lys Canal, unrelated in a more local sense.

The DLI probably shared responsibility for the road bridge at St Venant with the RWF. The situation is unclear. In its own sector, the DLI had to protect foot bridges across the canal. There was one just opposite Haverskerque (which stilll exists) and probably another one at Bas Hamel. Further W in the sector of 1 Berks there was a lock.

On the dispositions of 2 DLI a French historian wrote

Quote:

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La défense de Saint-Venant est complétée le 25 par l'arrivée des deux autres bataillons de la 6ème brigade: le 2nd Durham Light Infantry et le 1er Royal Berkshire. Les compagnies B et D du 2nd D.L.I. et le 1er Royal Berkshire sont envoyés dans la rue d'Aire (le 27 mai ils seront opposés au régiment S.S. Germania). Les compagnies A et C du 2nd D.L.I. occupent la plaine devant Saint-Venant entre les rues des Amuzoires et de Robecq. L'état-major du bataillon est situé dans une ferme située à l'intersection de la rue des Amuzoires et du canal.

---

and these dispositions you will find reflected in my little annotated map (post 102). Interestingly, he places 2 DLI HQ in the farm I originally pinpointed.

In short, although you found no trace of the Durhams W of St Venant, that does not mean they weren't there.

John

Wow you have been busy ,now I can let you know a little more about the 2DLI involvement.First the DLI HQ was in Bas Hamel on the 24th May 1940 from the 24th May to the 27th it moved three times! The last was into a Barn which was near the RWF who had pulled back next to 2DLI to consolidate their forces the RWF were in the Cemetery I believe. C and A Companies fought a different action to that of D and B Companies who due to losses were operating as a composite unit. The order `Every man for himself` was given to the remnants of D and B Company by a senior NCO once all the officers had been killed..this was not part of Harrisons order it was made on the spot by the NCO. Harrisons order to fall back was given to the 2DLI Adjutant Capt Townsend who was shot in the face crossing the Bridge the order to fall back never reached 2DLI in the Barn.From the Barn action only 10 men plus the wounded Townsend escaped.I believe one or two were killed at Merville? on the 29th May 1940. You are looking at three seperate actions involving the DLI alone.A C and B companies were wiped out ,virtually, with a total of 150 men returning to England from a complement of nearly 700.Does this help or am I complicating things.

On other matters Baconwallah Disc posted!
On other matters and I hope this makes sense the locations of the unknowns that Tony has sent today are the original field burials the page is from In Search of Tom there is no title pageto the document .

The Autopsy reports are not in the hands of the Mayor of St Venant .Pte Tom Rodgers report was in the office of M.Faivre. Phew!

Best Wishes

Jim

An interesting post, Jim.

The three actions of 2 DLI as I understand it were
1 - next to the churchyard, together with 1 RWF
2 - around Ferme Boulet
3 - presumably on the southern fringe of St Venant village (I assume)

Apparently my first guess at Ferme Boulet was 50% right: the farm was HQ, but it wasn't Ferme Boulet since that was in or near Bas Hamel.

Two problems:
- is the inconnu at Ferme Boulet (burial report) the same man who according to M Boulet's testimony was buried near the Rue de Robecq? The two locations seem irreconcileable. So instead of field burials perhaps the document lists the locations of the casualties before they were taken away to a temporary grave at Rue de Robecq?
- if the man at Ferme Boulet was Pte Corkhill, then why were the RSM and he there instead of at HQ?

I think it's necessary for my French friend to go in search of M Faivre.

John

Hello Ivor. John,

We have certainly opened a can of worms here. I think it is unbelievable that the amount of information that has been turned up in the space of a week has not led to a satisfactory conclusion. I am a complete novice at this sort of thing and have, for almost the last three years, relied on Jim to supply me with all the information that I had up to last week when I joined this forum. I'm sure that the BBC could make an excellent documentary out of this. We may be an inch or a mile away from knowing the truth. Every night I go to bed with my head buzzing. This the sort of thing that can easily take over a person's life.

Before sentiment takes over, I have an extract from the diary of Major Townsend of the events of the 27th;- ''A verbal message came up that Col Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge, wanted (to speak with) Col Simpson. As the CO had recently been at the RWF HQ talking to Bde HQ by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was (space) I crawled back to see Col Harrison. He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead. I was to bring back any men I could''

The CO did not know exactly where he was. More and more, I am thinking that a feature of this whole scenario was that it was not known, constantly, where anyone was. Is it not possible that the DLI thought they were in one place and the RWF thought they were somewhere else, due to the earlier withdrawal of maps? Here is a bit more from the diary;-

.....''After a few minutes the armoured cars came on towards me, so I withdrew with two men and eventually reached the bridge...............Col Harrison's RSM came up to say that the armoured cras were approaching the bridge. I was told to get my men over the bridge. We ran the gauntlet of enemy MG fire but on reaching the other side I was shot in the face. A Welshman put on a field dressing and I managed to walk away under more MG fire..................When Col Harrison saw how close the leading tanks were, (150 yards) he ordered the RE to blow the bridge but none were available......................the situation became impossible because about 20 men were holding the bridge with only one Bren gun against at least five tanks........the leading tank came across the bridge and wiped out most of the men holding it and blew up some of the houses where men were sheltering..........this tank then made its way to the head of the road leading to Haverskerque and shelled three RWF carriers withdrawing. Its career was cut short by an 18 pdr gun..........sixty men under 2nd Lt Rudd made their way to the Forest of Nieppe and joined (B) Echelon.

John, I said that I had seen it written that the RWF and DLI were sent to fill up the gaping hole around Bas Hamel. You'll have to give me a day or two on this one as far as to where the information came from. I have read so much over the last few days and have passed stuff on in emails and on these pages. My head will burst soon, I'm sure.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all.

OK. so we have successfully proved where the breakthrough took place. But I am now somewhat confused.
Right, this is now difficult as without internet access I have to rely on Memory, and a couple of john’s maps, and I have not been looking very much to the west. So, although I am not convinced this is the right place. What have I learned?
The RWF and some of 2DLI were approaching from the east. on 23^rd they reached St Floris.
24^th 2DLI was tasked with holding St Floris while RWF continued on towards St Venant taking it on 25^th. A. & C. Co’s RWF carrying on towards the western bridge near Robeq which they were unable to reach. Taking some casualties. Where did they take up position when they withdrew?
If my memory is still working A.& D Co RWF were placed on the left flank of 2DLI,at St Floris. With D Co continuing towards Robeq until they were ambushed.

Ok. John on your map you show DLI forces on an E/W axis I assume facing south ? but if the Germans were already on the North bank surely the threat would come from their west flank. And on your map showing the breakthrough area it would appear that the German front did in fact hit the west flank of DLI and as they seem to have troops further north then I am not sure how any troops from DLI would be able to get to the area you have marked as Farm Boulet. Surely they would be pushed back east or north east whilst your farm is north at Haveskirque.
Odd.
Assuming a flank attack then what are the options for DLI. Withdrawal to St Venant and cross the bridge. Without the internet I have no other idea and I will not speculate. I do recall reading that soldiers trying to swim the canal where machine gunned from the bank and also many drowned. I am not sure where but I think it was to the west of St Venant.
Will have to do some more digging, when I can. But in the meantime a couple of questions.
According to page 189 of ‘The Red Dragon’ it states ‘’ and recaptured by the British 2^ND Division on 25^th May (page 146)’’. I would like to see page 146, if possible. It also refers to 1^st RWF and PART of 2DI. Does 4 Co’s constitute a part? How many Co’s where there?

OK I was just about to bed down for the night when I had a flash of inspiration, it’s ok it wasn’t painful. John your farm is in the region of Haveskirque. But the war crimes files state Calonne Sur le Lys - St Venant area. Surely this implies that the incident took place to the east of StVenant. But if it was where you suggest, surely it would read Haveskirque – St Venant Area.
While a lot of the stuff we are dealing with is, because of the situation, very vague. I do not think that the War Crimes Commission suffered this problem. And I am quite convinced that they would be pretty accurate with their locating the incident.
Just a thought, but maybe worth considering.

ivor

Hi all.
the above was written last night as a word document an i copied/pasted it in.this is now live. TeeCee.What you are quoting, i believe ,refers to the action at the bridge east of St Floris. it gives a few more details to what.i already know.
i believe it confirms that both 2DLI and RWF had HQ's at the bridge. If the 2 Colonels were there then i would think it could have been Bn HQ's.
John . if the the 2DLI's Colonel was there then i assume it is quite possible that RSM Goddard would be there also, as would his Batman?
Back to Sq 1
OK..you all know my belief on this and,teecee's quote just strengthens that belief.

on a different subject. i have now found out that i can use my mobile phone as a Hotspot so i can access the Forum again.i have to check a few details re usage etc but it should mean that i can at least check what is going on.

ivor

Ivor, I hope to receive the full War Crimes report this week, and that may contain some hints on where to look.

You are right in saying that both Bn HQs were near the bridge at St Venant. 1 RWF had its Bn HQ in the cemetery and was responsible for the front E of St Venant, 2 DLI had its Bn HQ in a farm with a large barn, less than 50 yards away from 1 RWF HQ, and this is probably the farm and barn shown in my Google Street View photographs. 2 DLI was responsible for the line S and W of St Venant, with the exception of Robecq where B Coy 1 RWF was holding out.

Getting back to basics, these are the documented facts we must try to connect and reconcile:

- RSM Goddard saw Pte Corkhill, wounded in both legs and neck, and made him comfortable on the canal bank. Location unknown. [letter of RSM Goddard to family]
- M Victor Boulet saw a man wounded in both legs being murdered by an SS officer, opposite his farm on the Rue du Bas-Hamel. [war crimes testimony]
- an unidentified body was recovered from the pasture opposite the Ferme Boulet at Bas-Hamel [French list of bodies recovered from the Rue du Bas-Hamel - Rue d'Aire area]
- both Bn HQs were located to the E of St Venant, some 500 yards from the road bridge [RWF WD, http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272, http://arham62.monsite-orange.fr/page1/index.html]

John

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi again
(i've done this through mobile phone hotspot)


A number of things have been seriously bothering me about this action at the bridge. all 4 Co’s of both RWF and 2DLI and the Berkshires are accounted for, we know where they were. So what were these units at the bridge.
There was a bit of info that had been floating about, in the background, amongst the rest which never really got my attention. till now.
On one of the 3 maps that jungle submitted via bob it shows a Brigade HQ at Calonne near the junction of the Robecq Rd.
Where did it go? or is this what was at the bridge ?
It would make a certain amount of sense. They could withdraw across the bridge either towards Haveskirque or the forest where a no of troops were gathering.
This might account for the presence of 2 colonels and some other top brass. The RWF diary mentions 2 i/c. i/o. Padre and RSM. As being there.
I am assuming that a Brigade HQ Co would be made up of elements of the units comprising the Brigade but in what sort of numbers ?
Can anyone tell me is a Brigade Hq Co a fighting unit or is it more admin with a few teeth?
Would this unit have the weapons and amo to fight off a sustained attack from a panzer unit ? like only 1 Bren.
And finally, and I think this is critical. John I think you raised the question of the reason why the RSM would be there. I think this could be your answer.

OK. Let me bounce this around.

On 23^rd RWF arrive St Floris.
When on 24^th was 2DLI tasked with defending St Floris. ????? Where did these guy’s come from as we know where the 4Co’s went.
We know that Bgd HQ was shown on a map outside Calonne. Did they move up to St Floris on 24^th.to a barn near the bridge (farm Boulet). Was it the 2DLI element of Bgd Hq that was tasked.
On 27^th Col Harrison initially orders 2DLI to fall back Through RWF. Were these Bgd Hq men as we also know where the 4 RWF Co’s where.
OK this next bit might seem obvious but if 2 DLI were to pull back through RWF. Where were RWF. ???? Second line of defence at bridge.?
Right, this brings a lot of brass into the area. We know there are 2 colonels. the RWF
Seem to have a lot of staff there, so I would expect 2DLI to have similar. We are told that RWF’s RSM is there so I think it fairly safe to assume that 2DLI’s RSM Goddard would be there also. With his Batman.Pte A Corkhill.

This would put the right people, in the right place, at the right time. BUT before we jump to any conclusions.
We know were Bn HQ’s were
Does anyone have any info regarding the location of Brigade HQ 24^th -27^th May???
This could be crucial.

ivor

All I can tell you, Ivor, is that the DLI WD says that on the 27th in the midst of the fighting the Brigadier turned up and sanctioned a withdrawal. Where he came from. no idea. Where he went after that, again no idea but probably N across the canal.

A Bde HQ might be able to defend itself after a fashion, if the orderly room clerks could find their rifles, but its fighting potential would be severely limited. That was, after all, not its intended function.

As for RSM Goddard, I can only repeat what I have said before and also implied in my previous post. Location unknown. If he was near the Rue du Bas-Hamel, it would tie in nicely with the testimony of M Boulet, but we have no evidence for that and no documented reason for his being there, away from Bn HQ. If he was at Bn HQ, it logically follows that the man seen by M Boulet must have been somebody else and we should be looking for another man with leg wounds in the combined HQ area of the cemetery. Nice puzzle.

John

John, your last paragraph seems to be the most logical answer to the mystery and it is the one I am going with at the moment, although I have swayed from one to the other quite a few times. As you say, if RSM Goddard and Pte Corkhill were in the cemetery HQ, then Victor Boulet would have seen a different soldier being shot, not Anthony. This would answer my short-term search, ie for the location of Farm Boulet, although I do not want to lose sight of the bigger picture which is, to find the unmarked grave of my father's brother. Is our French friend still on the case? Might he yet come up with a king size clue?

PS sent you a PM earlier

Tony

PM problem (full in-box) solved. Please try again at your convenience.

My French friend is still on the case and as far as I know was planning to go to St Venant this week to pester the Maire. I think we should ask him to try and contact M Faivre as well.

John

john.

a nice puzzle indeed.
But. we talk of Bn Hq's but seem to be ignoring Bgd Hq. we know it was at Calonne from the map.so where did it go from there. if the Brigadier suddenly turns up the hq must have been reasonably close. if i remember correctly an entry in the RWF Diary for 27th says that HQ suffered a direct hit and no further communications were possible and it then gave a list of persons missing. some of these we know were alive at the bridge,so what was this HQ. could it have been BGD HQ.
If he had been at the bridge when it was lost, is it not possible that,realizing that the situation was now impossible would he, instead of escaping over the bridge to the north,visit the Bn Hq to order the withdrawal and the blowing of the St Venant bridge



ivor

I've checked the RWF WD, Ivor. It says "0600 - Bn HQ Suffered a direct hit from arty fire." All the men listed as missing were officers belonging to Bn HQ. The entry was obviously made by a Company officer who after the action had the difficult task of producing some sort of an account for the WD, all officers of Bn HQ being dead or captured. Hence the "<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:HyphenationZone>21</w:HyphenationZone> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->No further contact was made with Bn HQ."

John

A Brigade HQ in the field oftens splits to allow the Brigade Commander to get forward and as mobile as possible so he can influence the battle. Often known as a Tac HQ (tactical_HQ) which would have a security group 3, signallers 2, staff officers including the BAO (Brigade Artillery Officer) 3 and possibly some liaison officers from units to run orders to his units. Numbers would probably be three to four jeep sized vehicles. (12 to 15 persons say) The Main HQ would be elsewhere containing the balance of signallers manning rear link to Divisional HQ and Forward Links to the Commander and Units as well as the balance of staff officers and transport.

So it is quite feasible for Brigade HQ to a have been split into TAC and MAIN. The two parts tend to move separately in bounds in a mobile situation so that one foot is always on the ground but in the rout situation of Dunkirk I suppose anything could happen.

If all COs were together on the road bridge it was probably a brigade Orders Group (O Group).

I wish that I had chatted in more depth to Jack Wills (IO at the time) about all this at the time we were inaugurating the Memorial. He pointed out where the CO and BnHQ was shortly before they crossed the canal, it was in a ditch off the canal bank nearer the lock than the cemetery. I also took Demond Llewellyn (Q in the Bond movies) to Robecq to here his story with B Coy before he was captured. He found it very hard to identify locations but told a great story of how he was nearly shot as a spy by the Germans because the lock keeper had given him dry clothes after swimming the Bourne Canal just before he was captured.

Bob

Some clarification, after reading the War Crimes report.

The theory that M Boulet was actually a witness to a killing elsewhere, i.e. away from his farm, will not hold. The report clearly states that a British soldier, wounded in the legs, was shot at the Boulet farm. Witnesses: M Boulet, Mlle Josien.

The report describes atrocities in the St Venant area and the Calonne area. For St Venant it describes killings W and SW of St Venant as well as in St Venant itself, for Calonne it describes killings S of Calonne. Haverskerque does not come into it, sorry Ivor. Obviously the names St Venant and Calonne are used to indicate the administrative areas ('communes'), not just the villages themselves. Haverskerque is not only a different commune, it is also in a different Département.

John

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Morning all. (well this was actually written last night )

I thought I understood the St Floris/bridge part of this action but as there is a Bgd HQ in the area it poses another set of questions. So, and i hope you will forgive me, I am going to keep shaking this for a bit to see what, if anything, falls out.

Something did. not what I expected. But a size 9 BOOT which promptly buried itself to the 3^rd lace hole you know where.

AARRGGHH ,(various forceful expletives) All along I have been thinking of a defensive line south from the bridge. one of you mentioned the Hq being 500yds ahead of the bridge. But it still did’nt register. Of course it wasn’t south from the bridge (bl**** stupid idea). If the Hq was 500yds from the bridge then the defensive line would have been somewhere in advance of it. and I assume would curve in a south west direction so that A Co RWF which as far as I know was still on the left flank of 2DLI. would end up on a roughly east/west axis with their backs to the bridge. Also covering Bgd Hq.( at this point if anyone wishes to make any suitable comments please feel free to do so).
OK so now I do understand. As the defensive line was pushed back then Bgd Hq staff would have had to evacuate towards the bridge. To a barn?. The RWF probably would have reached the bridge first and formed a defensive line so that 2 DLI and Brigade staff could get over the bridge. 2 DLI was unable to disengage, and were overrun some Bgd staff and forward Hq staff made it, some were wounded and others including RWF taken prisoner.
Guys, I may have been facing the wrong direction for 2 weeks but it has not really affected what I have written. It just means that it has taken me a lot longer to understand what I had been reading.
However looking east or south is of no consequence. If RSM Goddard and his Batman were either at the forward Hq or BGD Hq then they have to end up at or near the bridge.

Ok I am reading posts via my phone
first thank you Bob for that info re Brigade Hq a very interesting post.
With regard to the O Group what would be the composition. I am mainly interested in knowing if the RSM’s would be part of this group.
John thanks for the info re the war crimes report. Actually I have never considered Haveskirque as a possibility.
The rest is very interesting. With regard to the ‘Communes’ I assume these correspond roughly to our parishes, so I assume that St Floris is within the parish. But can we find how far east towards Calonne the boundary extends.
Right, if any of you are starting to think that I have fixation with this bridge you are probably right. My gut feeling tells me that this is the right place. Just one small, but very elusive, piece of info is all we need. It must be out there somewhere.
We know that units kept War Diaries would anyone know if a Bgd Hq would have kept records of Staff/planning meetings and would these contain a list of who was present.


Verriers as our DLI expert. John has located 4 DLI Co’s west of St Venant so have you any ideas what element of 2DLI was at the bridge?

ivor