I hops so as well but lets not forget the MP,s will be getting ready for elections in a few weeks time and therefore any civil servant will be in Purdar for several weeks before and so may not be able to help him.
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I hops so as well but lets not forget the MP,s will be getting ready for elections in a few weeks time and therefore any civil servant will be in Purdar for several weeks before and so may not be able to help him.
Thanks Dave/Jim
Ho Ho, looks like I've cracked it by using google chrome. God, what a nightmare it was last night typing away what was to end up like a pile of knitting. A couple of weeks ago, I spent more than an hour but cancelled and gave up.
Anyway, what I was trying to say yesterday was that I was slightly more hopeful after visiting the MP, even though he reported that nothing had actually been done. I managed to give him a bit of a rocket and said that I was not happy with the rate of progress. I told him that the MoD could always manage to find the documents whenever there is a charge and to date I have bought Anthony's Army Service Record, his death certificate and online access to his last will and testament. I have read recently that WW1 soldier's diaries and letters home are available. There'll be a charge, no doubt. It's strange how all the records that are free, have been destroyed or can't be found. My uncle gave up his life, fighting for this country, who now can't be bothered to send someone to investigate the circumstances of how and where he died.
I will give my MP a few weeks grace and then I'll be back in to see him, but next time I won't wait so long. If he drags it out a bit more, I'll be back in until he is sick of the sight of me. I'm not giving up now.
Thanks again for all your support. I will report back as soon as there is anything new.
Tony
That's the spirit, Tony.Quote:
Originally Posted by teecee1941
John
Never give up hope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLXrmAjD38
John
Thanks, John. That's a lovely story that certainly gets you thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconwallah
Tony
Picked this off facebook...interesting though it may have no relevance to this thread..
From Nick Lock
Following up on earlier post of a Yeoman turned Royal Welchman, Private James Sinclair, 25 RWF, here is a modern photo of the 74th (Broken Spur) Yeomanry Division memorial at Saint Floris, Northern France. The 24th and 25th Battalions RWF, formerly Yeomanry Regiments, served in the Division and the RWF cap badge records this on the memorial. Sadly the village is linked twice with the RWF as in May 1940 the 1st Battalion fought a desperate action here against an SS Division. Many Royal Welchman gave their lives in the fighting and are buried locally. Right next to the memorial is a section of Royal Welchmen who were all killed next to the WWI memorial when their Bren Gun Carrier was destroyed by Anti-tank firing. Amongst the seven killed was Lieutenant John Garnett. He died on 23rd May 1940 aged 23. His father was Lt-Col W Garnett, DSO, DL, JP, formerly of The Royal Welch Fusiliers. The somewhat exocentric Garnett senior was featured in an earlier post and served in the 1st Battalion at the start of WWI. To have survived the Great War to have your son killed in the Second World War must have been a huge blow.
My Grandfather John James Mansfield Lock served in this Division but in the West Somerset Yeomanry. Gallipoli, Egypt, Palestine and Northern France.
Thanks, Chow,Quote:
Originally Posted by chow
When you say this may not be relevant, I think that it is just a story like this that could unlock the key to this mystery and set us on our way. The Authorities are offering very little help so the more unorthodox links we have the better.
Tony
A few weeks ago I was told by a good friend, Mr Brian Sims, of the existence of a Card index relating to Victims of War Crimes again at the National Archives arranged in Alphabetical order it was hoped ,despite there being no trace of Form Q 80, that the name of CORKHILL may be listed. Unfortunately this index has only two entries under `C` neither of them relevant. My thanks to Mr Brian Sims for his invaluable help. Another possibility eliminated the search continues
Jim
That's a shame Jim but the information we need has to be out there somewhere,I still believe it is deliberately being witheld for some reason.
Tony has had a very encouraging reply from his MP the details I will not go into I will let Tony explain more, suffice to say at last they seem to be taking it more seriously.
I have been struggling to find words to simply express what we seek from the authorities then it hit me ..we do not have any fancy references or file numbers (except Q80) what we want plain and simple is.. a copy of the document that both the MoD (War Office) and CWGC accepted as proof of death on May 29th 1940..can it be put any simpler?
Best Wishes
Jim
That's exactly it, Jim. And preferably uncensored.
John
Thanks Jim,
I think that is a great suggestion and I will be forwarding it to the MP in the next day or so. It is exactly what we are looking for, a straight answer. And like John says, uncensored. As soon as I get an answer I will let everyone know.
I think the latest reply from the MP is encouraging but there's a long way to go and once again it's all down to the hard-headedness of the MoD as to what sort of response I get.
Once again, it's fingers crossed. Is it ever anything else!
Tony
Hello again, everyone,
Sorry I have not been in touch for a while but I have been waiting to hear from my MP. His contact was not forthcoming so I went to see him at his monthly surgery last Saturday.
I am sad to say that there has been no progress at all and although my hopes were dashed, I realised that there is very little to be gained by getting involved in any sort of shouting match with him. The minute I tell him to stick his help, that is one more door firmly closed. I am convinced that in order to get the case considered by the MoD, I have to stick with it, no matter how long it takes.
He promised me that he was going to see the Minister today(12 May) to put the case forward 'in London' rather than remotely and it seemed as though he was intent on making some sort of impact, especially after I told him that I was receiving the same answers over and over again from the MoD. I said that I was not pleased that in about thirteen months, absolutely no progress had been made. He seemed to take note of my comments and said ''Right, let's see what we can do'' (I've heard that one before!)
For my parting shot, I asked him at what point should I abandon my optimism. He told me not to give up and he would do all he could.
Whether or not he was glad to see the back of me, I don't know but although there was no movement at all since I last met him, I was not as downhearted as perhaps I should have been. My plan now is this;- I will wait two or three weeks then write to him and ask only one question, what happened when he went to see the Minister (P Hammond). I intend to chip away until he is sick of me and hopefully we will eventually get a result.
Like I said earlier, the only way is to stick with the MP even if it takes a hell of a lot longer. It seems that the evidence or at least the documents which will do us any good are in the custody of the MoD and it is likely that the route is via the MP.
I will be in touch as soon as I can,
Thank you all,
Tony
PS I sent a reply to a message from AP1 but it seems that the system was not working properly and he may not have got my message. This is just to say that I have not ignored you Al.
Shame this Tony but keep at it mate
Interesting sequence of pictures on the RWF Museum Facebook page….reposted onto the RWF Forum Facebook page…the final one below:
Attachment 3405
morning all.
Thanks Al, an interesting find.
I wonder, we have info that there was a ''temporary'' bridge over the canal, could this be it. allowing for poor translation. This would appear to be the access bridge to the Island where the Lock Keepers house was located.The vehicle is traveling from the island.
However, if my memory is correct, this type of bridge would have been moveable. to allow for clearance of barges as the lock filled. Some of these where in 2 halves. I wonder if the crane in the background may have been for lifting it.
It also appears that there are 2, either, steel girders or timber baulks along the length of the bridge which would restrict the width of the roadway. If i had been a tank commander i think i would have been very, very suspicious of this bridge.
Now, a bit of possible speculation. It would appear that the Lock Gate at this end is still intact. looking under the bridge you can see, what i believe to be the gate. again looking between the bits of the destroyed bridge, i believe the white areas to be water, if the lock gate had gone i do not believe it would have been this noticable.
OK. this little bridge may have got them onto the island, but what was between the island and the North Bank ???.
ivor
An aid:
Attachment 3406
Very useful map Al
Hello again, everyone,
Many thanks to Al, Dave and Ivor for the picture, map and comments. Sadly, Ivor's fine description of the workings of the bridge is a bit above my head, as always!
I heard from my MP recently but, for reasons of confidentiality, I am unable to say exactly what I have been told. This does not mean there has been any development, quite simply, there hasn't. All I can say is that I believe there has been an extra ounce of pressure put on the MoD and have been told that the MP will chase up the MoD for an answer before too long. I will wait two weeks, then get back in touch to ask for an update. I am determined to at least try and keep up the pressure.
Sorry to be reporting this 'non event' but I hope to back in touch in a couple of weeks. Thank you all once again for your interest.
Tony
Hi All.
well now this is becoming rather interesting.
We have seen this map before early in this thread.It shows the Main Road crossing the canal, what it doe's not show is the fact that the river still flows to the North of the canal where,apparently is a Weir. The Keepers House is on an Island.
The Photo is somewhat confusing.
We have had evidence from a couple of sources that the bridge at St Venant was Mined but Not Blown. But quite obviously the bridge in the picture has been destroyed. So what bridge is being referred to as not being blown.
After further studying the bridge shown in the photo it reminded me of pictures of temporary bridges i had seen when was looking at the subject before.While,sadly, i can not, at the moment, find my earlier source the pic linked below is very similar.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-German-...item4ab514339b
This is a German bridge.
Now, we know that the Germans had bridging equipment in the area for a day or so, as it was captured by the advancing RWF.
Looking at the photo it would appear that a fairly heavy, from the wheel tracks, vehicle had got to the edge of the canal. It may be a possibility that if as i suspect this was a German bridge then they would also have placed a bridge over the river to the North of the Island. Is this the temporary bridge mentioned in the records, which was not blown.
ivor
Possible the photo is out of its timeline? Could this be a 1944 image rather than a 1940?
Pte Anthony Corkhill
2nd Durham Light infantry
29th May 1940
Another year passes but you are never forgotten
RIP
Jim
You may well be right there, JIm. It looks as though the French bridge constructed in the winter of 1939-40 (background) has been destroyed and this is a temp construction on the spot where the old drawbridge was in 1940.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verrieres
John
Hi all.
Personally i doubt that it is out of context. I think that it is another instance that may show that the info we have may be suspect.
ivor
I have been trying to ID the vehicle on the bridge as if we know the type it will give us a timeline for production and Country of manufacture and use.
The vehicle on the Bridge is a bit of an oddity to me im afraid it appears to be about the size of a jeep but the shape is all wrong, also it is unlike any British vehicle of early war that I have ever seen. In all honesty if the photo IS early war and in context the vehicles can only belong to three countries, France, Briton and German however if it is not in context and is late war we can add Canada to that list.
I shall continue to try to find out what the vehicle is as and when I get time
Just found this on the net
And also: The hospital of Saint-Venant was caught between the two lines of German and Franco-British fire and was the scene of a bloody struggle, even in the same hospital courtyard 24, 25 and 26 May 1940. Located in the countryside, cut into a few hours of all communications with Outside, taken and retaken three times, in turn defended by the British and German troops, it had probably escaped complete destruction as urgent representations made in full battle by the director and one of his assistants. Reduced due to lower men of military personnel had to face a tragic situation; asylum housed in effect in 2300 people, including 2000 patients, both civilian and military, both French and Belgian and English, for most victims of a bombing that destroyed 22 May half the town of Saint-Venant. We lamented at least 50 deaths, including those of the chaplain Louis Becque, sister Bethany Sainte-Madeleine and Jean Bonnet, mortally wounded May 26, 1940 in their ministry or service.
Shows us some of the problems with the hospital problem
I subscribe to the CWGC Newsletter this month they are asking for volunteers to file and catalogue their `vast` archive??? I thought they didn't hold any records? They also say if you are interested you can view their archives via appointment only this is what you can see todate.
http://www.cwgc.org/media/14251/ac_part_2.pdf
Jim
Yes, I'd noticed the same in this month's newsletter. I know they have extensive records, have made use of them in Great War research, but it's the first official mention I've seen.
John
I`ve just heard that Arthur Willis, died at home 8 June 2014.aged 101 years He served with 2 DLI 1932-1938 and 1939-1946 he was at St Venant and although he could not shed any new light on the search was good enough to speak with Tony regarding the battle following his 100th Birthday.
RIP Arthur
Jim
Morning all.
As you say, the Vehicle could be a clue to the timeline. Difficult to id as apart from the other Countries mentioned, it could be Austrian or Polish. Having had a closer look at this pic i wonder if the vehicle is a ''Staff Car'' as it appears that the 2 persons in the rear look to be sitting considerably higher than the Driver. Might narrow the field a bit.
will continue looking. But i wonder if similar vehicles would have been attached to the Bridging unit.
ivor.
hi again.
The following link seems to be a good source of info. but sadly i can not find our vehicle, so it may well be a captured one
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/ww2-weapons.asp
ivor
Hello Ivor,Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
From Kyle Hinson on the WW2 Talk Forum the vehicle has been identified as a Hotchkiss R15R Command & Reconnaissance 4x4 or a a Laffly V 15T.. Car built in 39-40 French manufacture 200 in total made and operated by the Germans following the fall of France. Production ceased after 1940.
Jim
hi all.
Chow just linked this on F Book. While i have been on this site on a number of occasions i have not seen the attached photos. Photo 12 shows the Old Bridge structure which is the bridge from the North Bank, over the River to the island on which stands the Lock keepers Cottage.
So now we have the complete picture, this pic, 70 yrs later, of the Old Brick Bridge and the 1940 pic with the Staff Car crossing the Temporary bridge over the Canal.
http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/?id=272
wonderful.
ivor
Hello Ivor,
I`m not sure which photo you are referring too but if it is the brick bridge with the Rodgers family commemoration then that isn't `our` bridge that's `D` Company 2 DLI and Royal Berks Bridge and not the one over the lock. In their book `In Search of Tom` reference is given to their initial search being in the wrong place as D Company (and remnants of B) 2 DLI fought at another bridge over the Guarbecuque Canal and not over the Lys at St Venant itself.(Hope this makes sense?)
Jim
Hello,
Tony will be along soon to tell you about his `Ministerial` replies to say they are disappointing and condescending is an understatement. Tony is being, understandably, diplomatic but if it was my right to reply I would word it something like this;-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr (MP),
I have received your reply and after due consideration I am of the opinion that I am once again being fobbed off with standard non relevant drivel. Every step you have mentioned are steps that any newcomer would receive on an initial enquiry direct to one of the departments and not one from a so called Ministerial level.
Yes I have undertaken research ,extensive research and it is because the files you have stated are either incomplete or at worst `doctored` that I have sought your help. I am aware of the CWGC stance, I know about the Corporal in the grave next to Pte Walt the very fact that his dates of death are estimated from the 1st May to the 31st May 1940 are in themselves impossible As hostilities began on May 10th the 2nd DLI RWF and R Berks were in Belgium not France so unless they drove their dead around for a month before burying them in a different country whilst fighting a frantic rear guard action then the dates are totally unbelievable ? I have indeed done my research it is obvious the Minister has not done his.
My request is a simple one I want a copy of the document the War Office sent to the CWGC confirming my uncles death. Simple isn't it? As the CWGC state themselves they do not know when the unknowns were killed thus they give a `between date` In Anthony Corkhills case we have a specific date THE 29th MAY 1940,SPECIFIC!! What document was forwarded on to the CWGC to be SPECIFIC?
I know the file references you have quoted but these are not the original file numbers, they are incomplete where are the rest? The NA do not know where Forms Q are that too is on their website on the Discovery page.
Everything you have forwarded to me is either available on a Google search or would be the first step the most green of amateur researchers would perform. I have been fobbed off by these organisations already that is why I turned to you, now whilst you seem to have accepted their lame excuses I do not It is clear to me that the sacrifice of this brave soldiers life means nothing to the Government of the country he fought for We at least refuse to give up on him!
Yours
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I`m a little Peeved at present :(
Jim
Hello Everyone,
As Jim says, the reply is disappointing. Unfortunately, I am once again unable to say too much at this stage because there are issues that are still pending.
There is still very much to do, but I am still very hopeful of a favourable result.
Will be back in touch ASAP
(Still having a lot of trouble typing. Has taken about 20 minutes to type this)
Tony keep pushing mate eventually someone will give up and give you the info you need (within the constraints of legalities of course)
Dave
Hello,
I`ve been a bit busy lately so I haven't been able to pop in as much as I would have liked but here`s a little bit of a puzzle for you
Last year the MoD sold off copies of Soldiers Wills at £10 a time, Tony applied for Anthony Corkhill`s a copy of what he received he kindly forwarded on to me `Army Form B.2089`
Army Form B.2089 was contained in a Soldiers Paybook if there`s no information on Anthony and he was never found..then how were they able to retrieve the Will from the paybook?
From the National Archives of Scotland;-
I do not know enough about these wills to do anything but speculate at this time but I doubt there would be two copies? Worthy of consideration ?Quote:
..He could write another will when issued with a new pay book, and if he died his most recent will would be retrieved from his pay book whenever possible. Known as a 'Short Form of Will'.
Jim
hi all.
i think i am correct in assuming that a man would have kept his pay book on him at all times. or would they be kept at a HQ Bgd or Regiment.
He may have forwarded the will to the orderly room!
http://www.ab64.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/a12.htm
possibility is that his paybook containing his will was full and therefore returned to Regiment and replaced by a new one, it is likely he would not bother doing a new will since the Regiment already had the original in there possession