Frank Williams WW2 Wrexham TA, RWF mix of units, Killyleagh, Possible Commando time

ok so my next question (sorry) having read about Whittington Barracks why, if they were US Army during WW2 would the 31st Battalion RWF (whoever they were) be stationed there?

I still can't see why he also ended up in hospitals in Bangor, Abergele and Portmadoc whilst listed as being in 'field' which I am assuming is their shorthand for Lichfield because that was the one above all of these entries.

Also one other odd question, did people often refuse innoculations? both my grandfathers refused them in 1943/4, it doesn't say what they were vaccinations for.

hi.
I think the US was there from sometime in 43, so the last entry showing ''Field'' is 24 June 43 so it may tie in. i am trying to figure the hospital bits, it's odd.

ivor

ah ok - so the Americans were following him around then. First Ireland, then Staffordshire.

Well I suppose it would be boring if it was as nice and logical as my other Grandfather's record. I am fascinated that once he became a driver the records are all clear and logical but this patch before that is just so strange. Makes me wonder what on earth he was up to.

Just looking at the Court Marshall info, what could 'disembarking' be referring to? boat?

hi.
this link is quite long. but you will need to scroll down to the heading. Changes in 1940, it has some more info.

http://ww2ni.webs.com/informationotherpart2.htm


ivor

thanks - that explains how the US troops fitting in with RWF in NI then.

Anniek.

Disembark. means to leave a ship, do we have a ship.
yes.
H.M.S Al Rawdah

Is that what they were guarding.

possible.


Ivor

hmm makes you wonder doesn't it.

hi.
Have been looking at the Y List and found the following.

''Y List


The army ruling at one time was that if a soldier had been in hospital for 21 days or more he was put on the Y-list; which meant that when he became fit for duty he was sent to a holding unit and then could be sent to any unit other than his own. This, in most cases, was not a popular move which, I believe under the orders of General Montgomery, was changed. The ruling became that if a soldier was in hospital for 21 day when wounded or sick for 30 days he was entitled to seven days home sick leave and then would return to his own unit if they wished or could be transferred to another unit.


My Dad's service record did exactly that shown above. Went into hospital early July 1942 and 21 days later was posted to the Y List. He did return to his own unit in October that year.


Hope that was of some help.


Also when my Dad was demobbed, he was posted to the Y List. Maybe one of the Vets can tell us a bit more.''

I have extracted the dates he was in either CRS or Hospital and they are more that 21 days. but what is a bit puzzling is that he is not posted to the ''Y'' until nearly 6 Months later.
and if he was in Litchfield what is he doing in Med Facilities in North West Wales.
Odd

Ivor.

thank you - that does in some ways make sense. He was put on Y list and then appointed to a completely different role as a driver. He did claim he was invalided out of the commandos due to an extra bone in his foot which cause some problems with marches but my mum said he never had any problems walking or going on long hill walks etc after the war so she never fully understood that.

I am relieved I am not the only one who thinks it is all a bit odd. We have no idea about the hospital visits when he was supposedly in Lichfield. He was always in excellent health right up until he was killed in the 1970s so as far as we know there were no ongoing health issues, there is no indication he was ever wounded on his sheets (mind of course there was no indication he actually did anything at all or that he ever left the UK so who knows) and I don't believe some pain from an extra bone in his foot would warrant hospital stays in the middle of WW2.

I haven't really seen any other people's records other than my 2 grandfathers but were they normally as odd/large gaps as this one? My other grandad did training courses and got qualifications which are all listed, there is lots of stuff on his about where he was and who he was training. not loads of detail but enough and in a logical spread out timeline that it makes sense.

hi.
I have been trying to make some sense of his Hospital dates.
CRS Dromore is, i think, just what it says. He was there for treatment for Scabies.

Now, the rest is where it gets a bit more interesting.
CRS Vaynol is on the Menai Straits near to Port Dinorwic,now Felinheli (welsh). Obviously something happened, prior to the 18/4/42 to put him there for 3 days. until 20/4/42, so it might be reasonable to think it was not particularly serious.
The next entry is the Military Hospital, Abergele .which had the following.

>Abergele WWII US Army Camp 32nd Evacuation Hospital 62nd General Hospital (1,500 beds)<

Whatever happened to put him there,must have been more serious as he is there from 16 to 24/4.43
9 days later he is in CRS Portmadoc, which also has a harbour. 3rd to 11/5/43. a month later he is back there again 12 to 23/6/43.

There are 2 things here i do not quite understand.
first. What is this 31 Btn in Litchfield which i can find nothing about. and why after his release from Hospital did he not return to this unit.
second . why would it take 6 months to put him on the ''Y''List.

with regard to the second question the only thing i can think of is that after his discharge on 23/6 he returned to whatever his duties were but became unfit to do them.

I think it fairly obvious that during this period he was Commando. I know that there were quite a number of training camps on the North West Wales Coast, Tywyn had 4 camps within the area, there was another at Barmouth and one at Harlech.

But, sadly, unless someone can come up with more info i don't know where we can go from here. i will keep looking.



ivor

thank you - that is all very interesting. Yes I am not sure where this 31st Battalion comes from. It doesn't seem to be showing up on anything. It looked like they wrote 30th battalion but then went over with a thicker pen to make 31 so they obviously initially made a mistake writing or changed their mind but it is quite clearly recorded as 31st.

It is reassuring it looks likely he was a commando then. I was starting to wonder if he had been making that up although why he would I don't know.

I really appreciate your help. Even if we find out no more I am much further on with information and possible ideas than I was a few days ago. Thank you.

Anniek.

just found this'

http://www.llgc.org.uk/ymgyrchu/Heddwch/WW2/HEAR07.jpg


ivor

thank you - will have to get a magnifying glass out I think. I have been to Criccieth.

I have just realised I think I have been a bit dim, I assumed (not having looked at service records before) that it was saying he was in Lichfield all that time because it just said field in that column underneath Lichfield but it has just dawned on me that that might mean he was 'in the field' so therefore could have been in any number of places in Wales hence the Welsh hospitals.

out of curiosity if the RWF were on the whole all Welsh people did they just speak Welsh? I know my Grandfather didn't learn English until he was an adult and his parents never spoke English.

hi.
Firstly i do not think you are being at all dim, this whole thing is quite complex as there are huge gaps in his record for which there is no written explanation.
I have wondered about it myself but to me it seems to be too vague, in effect they are saying well he is still on the strength but we do not really have a clue where he is, or what he is doing. which, if he was Commando would be perfectly true. it would only be when he went into hospital that his unit would be informed. This would appear to be more evidence that he was Commando.
This Tatton Park, possibility is interesting as it was used for Parachute training which as Dave said earlier might account for him being awarded SPP.
What i now wonder is, if he was 1 Commando,for instance, would they have kept records themselves and if so where would they be as it is obvious they were not sent to his unit when he left ?.

Your second point. i think there were a lot of Non Welsh speakers within RWF, but i think others will have more info on this.


ivor

Perhaps I should point out that the records as supplied may well be incomplete. We have already discussed this in the St Venant thread, where there was mention of missing medical records (if I remember correctly).

John

Ivor, Tatton Park was also used by the SOE/SIS which raises other posibilities mate and as know from my dad men were often seconded to them for various reasons yet they remained within there parent regiment.
not saying this is the answer just a possibility.

Morning
I am quoting an extract from a document re 1 Commando. this is from the nominal Roll.

''Formed 13th June 1940 with personnel from No's 6 & 8 Independent Companies as No 11 Independent Company. Redesignated No1 Commando 14th June 1940 and disbanded on 27th July 1940 and became part of No1 Special Service Battalion.


Reformed as No1 Commando 5th March 1941 in Dartmouth.


Raids included 27/28 August 1941 on the French coast.


2-7 April 1942 Bayonne ….Operation Myrmidon (Aborted)
A troop from No 1 took part in the raid on St Nazaire where Sgt Tom Durrant was awarded the Victoria Cross.


1942 No1 Commando was then withdrawn from raiding to prepare for the North African operations and landings ‘Operation Torch’. November 1942, during Operation torch, No 1 Commando were the first unit in history to wear the green beret in battle.


Several operations were undertaken by the Commando in North Africa before fighting as part of the line and then returning to the UK for refitting and re-equipping.
Nov 1943 the unit sailed for the Far East and jungle training in India.''

This now makes some degree of sense of his record.
If he took part in the St Nazaire raid was he injured and on his return in CRS Vaynol 18 to 20 /4 42 as a result.
The same can apply for Operation Torch Nov 1942. his record is blank from his marriage entry 5/10/42 till he is granted SPP on 3/3/43.
similar gap appears from 7/8/42 until he is married on 26/9/42. He does not appear to have asked for leave to do this so that i would think that he was stationed in the area, possibly Tatton Park. Para training ?
If he was involved with Operation Torch he would have left the UK probably not long after his Marriage and if he was again injured, more seriously this time, i can quite well believe he may not have returned to UK till April when he was Hospitalised in Abergele. If this injury was the reason for his 2 later visits to CRS Portmadoc then it might raise questions regarding his fitness.
This would be more critical as they were going to India for Jungle Training.Not the easiest job. and it might account for his refusing Inoculations.
This could well have been the reason for him leaving the unit and his posting to the ''Y''List.


ivor

hi all.

I Have linked this as it makes interesting reading.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/site/the-army-commandos

Oh. and Pte F Williams is listed on the 1 Commando Role of Honour.
there is a link within the document.

Total Respect is given.


ivor

Er, the Pte F. Williams mentioned in the Roll of Honour was killed in the war.

John

Looking at 31 RWF. They were part of the "Home Forces" There is a file ref in the National Archive

http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils?Uri=C31294

Attachment 3143http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

thank you everyone. I don't think we will ever find out quite what he did.

He always said that half of them didn't go to India due to pneumonia and my mum by chance met someone recently who said the same about his father who had been a commando. I must get that story out of her properly - my parents met him in a stately home or something. So the pneumonia could explain one hospital visit or perhaps a couple but I would be surprised if it was more than that. He also apparently went to the docks to collect his 'troop' (is that what they were called?) when they came back from India and he was horrified to discover that their bags had been looted by the dockers. I don't know when they came back but that could possibly have been when he was a driver? although quite some coincidence to be going to collect the same men he had been training alongside if he was then in a different company/troop/battalion thing altogether (sorry I really haven't got the hang of the terminology here)

He definitely wasn't the one on the Roll of Honour, he wasn't killed until the 1970s.

Hi folks.
I never said that the F Williams on the Roll of Honour was Frank, nor do i know that it was him on the Nominal Roll. All i am saying is that there is a F Williams on the Roll of 1 Commando. Which may be a coincidence but from what we have it is a Possibility. There is no F Williams on 2 Commando. Which was founded at the same time.
1 Commando was founded from men returned from Norway which Frank had done and he was 8 Independent unit. While this is not proof it fits Known Facts/Beliefs. So it has to be considered.
When we started we had a possibility and some info. i think we now have a lot more possibilities and some strong Probabilities. I do not believe we can ever successfully find out what went on,or what happened, unless something else turns up, like 1 Commando records. But i will not give up just yet. I like Mysteries. and this is a good one.



ivor

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vori101

1 Commando was founded from men returned from Norway which Frank had done and he was 8 Independent unit.

---

Can you post the portion of the record that states "Independent Unit" Please Ivor. Obviously without seeing the record, its difficult for the rest of us to pick up on possible clues.

Cheers

Hi.

as Requested.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/node/358


ivor

Thanks Ivor,

I think the "8th" on our Frank Williams service record refers to 8RWF. I don't see anything on the record that suggests he was a commando. Unless I've missed something. What I do think is maybe possible, that he was one of Stockwells men who deployed to Norway in May 1940. But that is only because of his family conversations. Gen Jon Riley is not aware of the name(he wrote Stockwells biog), but it was such an ad hoc group of men, quickly formed, from unlikely sources...effectively part time soldiers, doing the job of special forces, that anything in those dangerous times was possible. We will probably never know. Our final option is Swipers check of the war diary for that period.

Hi Al.
Like you i have been going on info given not looking at the record too closely. but this AM i have and have to admit i can not find any indications of Commando. but i do not think that, in view of the situation at the time, we should ignore the possibility.
I think you said that the Commando units only got to Norway in time to fight a withdrawal action so i would think it quite possible that Stockwell was not aware of who was there.
You may well be right about it being the 8 RWF but i am puzzled as to why he would not have been posted to I.T.C, if that is Initial Training Course until 22/6/40. and on the same date posted to the 50th. Looking on the record posted by Anniek. the one with his Embodied Stamp. There are 4 entries in the 1st column with 2 authority entries:-
149/40 and 103/40. posted to I.T.C. 22/6/40
13/40 and 150/40. Posted to 50th. 22/6/40 Taken on Strength at Denbigh. 23/6/40
153/40 and 68/40. Granted war substantive rank. 27/8/40
153/40 and 90/40. Posted to 4th 22/9/40.

Might this not indicate that the original authority came from a different unit.
It might appear that Frank never went to I.T.C. It might be interesting to know if he was T.A. before 39, as he would have done Basic then so he could have been available immediately. and would that have made him eligible to Volunteer for Commando. If so then 8th may still have been the Independent unit.
There is another odd thing here the 50th. quote..

''On the 10th January 1940 the 7th Holding Battalion was formed at Denbigh in North Wales containing a King's Own company. The 7th Holding Battalion divided on 2nd June and it's King's Own company moved to Heysham Towers in Lancaster, to form the 50th Holding Battalion. The first operation of the 50th was to receive men just back from the British Expeditionary Force in France. In the autumn of 1940 the 50th Holding Battalion was converted to the 10th Battalion of the King's Own and joined the Northumberland Division, Brigaded in 225th Infantry Brigade - along with battalions from the King's and Border Regiments. The 10th Battalion was responsible for coastal defence in Northumberland. In September 1940 the battalion did its first formation training as part of the 59th Division. After this training they returned to the beaches. In November 1941 the 10th Battalion learned that the Northumberland Division was to break up. 10th King's Own were to be converted to a heavy tank regiment of the Royal Armoured Corps - becoming the 151st Regiment Royal Armoured Corps in January 1942, receiving Churchill tanks shortly afterwards.''

If the 50th was in Heysham from 2/6 would he have been taken on their strength in Denbigh when they were a Kings Own unit and not RWF. the 7th HB would have made more sense.

ivor

its almost impossible to unravel. Perhaps the war diary for the 8th Bn, may provide a clue, especially if it mentions volunteers for Norway.

During his period with 31 RWF at Litchfield, I do wonder if he was involved in Coastal Defence, in North Wales.

hi.
Anniek.
did you say you had some records from earlier than the ones you scanned. If so was he TA before he Joined Up.



ivor

Hello - thanks everyone for all of that work.

Yes he was TA. He joined the TA on June 6th 1939 (as he turned 20) in Llay and it says he was for the RWF and the 4th Battalion. He was called to colours on 2nd September 1939.

The medical section of his service and casualty form is covered up with what looks like a white sticky label just saying C2(HS) 2/10/45 MD 1/c Troops Donnington. There is something written under that but impossible to see if it is anything useful. Can see a date of 1940 sticking outon the right hand side of the label and next line ARD then XASC underneath on the 3rd line so no help there.

Mum looked at her parents wedding certificate and whilst her mother gave 2 addresses, her home one in Tyneside and her ATS posting one at High Legh, he only gave his home address in Llay, they married in uniform in Bucklow. So I am not sure if that indicates he was moving around a bit.

He only ever mentioned training in the mountains and killing the sheep, training in Benbecula which he was none too complimentary about as place to visit and one trip to Norway. He certainly never mentioned going anywhere else and it did sound like he missed most of the action with missing India through illness.

I think you are right, we will never work it out but it is proving to me all the confusion surrounding everything in the war. Thank you to everyone, hopefully it is at least proving interesting for you too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ap1

its almost impossible to unravel. Perhaps the war diary for the 8th Bn, may provide a clue, especially if it mentions volunteers for Norway.

During his period with 31 RWF at Litchfield, I do wonder if he was involved in Coastal Defence, in North Wales.

---

Coastal defence would make an awful lot of sense, it could also explain why he turned up in different coastal hospitals, plus a knowledge of the area of North Wales would presumably have been helpful as would any training he had done in the mountains (presumably in Ireland seeing as we know he was there) and Benbecula if what he said was right.

Anniek.
Believe me i am finding this fascinating.
However. You say when he joined the TA on 6/6/39 he was destined for the 4th RWF. Yet when he joined in Sept he went to the 8th something, he did not get to the 4th until 22/9/40, a Year later.interesting. I do not know if the RWF were ever in Benbecula or if they were involved in Mountain training in 39/40. Any ideas anyone.

But this raises an interesting point. he does not seem to have been on Basic Training. unless he did it between 6/6/39 and 2/9/39. as TA ????.



ivor

nope there is no training listed ANYWHERE. that is why I didn't copy the TA stuff because it doesn't say anything really.

standard who he is, medical stuff etc on pages 1 and 2 then on the 3rd page it says literally

6/6/39 RWF Attested, rank Fus from 6/6/39
4th posted 6/6/39 and stamped 4th Bn RWF
nothing else on that whole sheet

4th page is the military history sheet

just says place - home, from 6/6/39

the instruction/wounded/special instances/medals/injuries and so on all blank and then just his father filled in as next of kin.

absolutely nothing else whatsoever.

so no it looks like he did no training of any sort at any time for anything.

I am starting to wonder if he actually did anything at all.

my other grandad has courses, qualifications, training etc all neatly logged on his (he was also TA from 1939 but was highly skilled in setting charges in mines so was rapidly taken off to train people in mine disposal) but Frank seems to have done nothing at all.

I am pleased you are finding it fascinating

hi
odd as on the page you copied it says Embodied 2/9/39 8th.
further down Posted 4th 22/9/40.

ahhh good. another puzzle.


ivor

oh I hadn't noticed that. well you couldn't expect anything to match up could you? nothing else on his records seems to! All so odd. He must have done SOME training surely. It is quite sad in a way, he was a lovely man and very intelligent from all accounts, went on to employ hundreds of people, fitted in with everyone whatever their background, experienced miner before the war and so on (is listed as being a steel erector on his forms) so he would presumably have been a useful soldier and he signed up early as well rather than wait until he was forced.

mind I have learned something else, his religion is listed as a Culmonistic Methodist! I presume they mean a Calvinistic Methodist although I had never heard Calvinistic before so had to look that up.

hi guy's

another thing which seems odd is. within 3 months he was a Lance Corporal and 4 months later is acting Corporal. was this normal. as it seems a bit quick to me. he was only 20.


ivor

well I wondered if that was something to do with Norway.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/einnaf/12075122585/
on this page which seems to be the most 'confused' of the pages (mind I haven't really read the driver ones yet but they look straight forward) it says about him being Corporal right at the top, date given May 27th 1940. It presumably COULD be possible that the change to Acting Corporal occurred in Norway if the dates suggested earlier of 25-29th May 1940 might apply - he did say they were very heavily bombed and not on land for that long, Bodo would seem the one likely for bombing although he said he went to Narvik at some point and I can't see why he would even know much about Narvik if he hadn't been somewhere vaguely near for some reason. I notice that entries 2 and 3 on this sheet are in the wrong order. August before June so obviously written up some time after the event. Can anyone make out what the location was on the 3rd entry here it says posted to the 50th HB? I can't work it out. It looks like it starts with a B..lub..gh? Doesn't even hint at anywhere I have heard of.

And my mum says thank you very much for all your efforts and thoughts. She has been quite sad looking through all his records and them not making much sense so she really appreciates people spending time investigating.

I did ask her again about the bizarre story from bumping into this chap in a stately home last year. She is going to look up where it was they had been on a day trip but the chap was the owner of the House and his father had been a medic in the RWF and then went to Norway with 1 Commando. The man who became his (the house owner's) uncle was sent to India with one of the units where it was supposed to be the other half who went but they were all ill with pneumonia or some other such serious illness so his half went instead. She came back from the day trip quite unsettled because she said it all matched too closely what her dad had said about the India thing but she didn't think to ask the man if he knew any more. If she tells me where they were I will try to contact him to ask.

anniek.

the word is Denbigh. the 50th was formed there from the 7th HB.then moved to Lancaster.


ivor

gosh some of these people had awful handwriting! I did wonder about Denbigh after it was mentioned earlier but I just couldn't make the scrawl fit the letters. Mind to be fair Cpl next to it doesn't actually look like Cpl either.

I like the person a few lines later who wrote in capitals.

thanks