Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconwallah
Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconwallah
Thanks once again, John, I'll email them tomorrow.
I omitted to tell you before that I emailed that address and he said he'll get back to me later in the week, so thanks also for that.
Well, we may be getting somewhere, Tony. Cautious optimism.
John
Posted on behalf of Brian Donovan:
I have scanned 3 photos from the Red Dragon for the man who lost an Uncle around Saint Venant and he served in the Durhams. I thought they may be of use to him. I am awfully busy at present and wondered if you can post them for me please.
Regards as ever Brian Donovan
Attachment 2787Attachment 2788Attachment 2789
Hello Brian,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I've had a look at the maps and with your consent, I'll pass them over to my DLI Historian to see what he can glean from them. Thanks again, Tony
John, just a quick one to tell you that I emailed the CWGC about an hour ago. They say it will take a week or so for them to reply.
hi all.
had a quetish day trying to get a line on a temporary bridge over the Lys, which was'nt blown and allowed the Germans over to the north bank. so i have been floating around the area courtesy of google earth, looking for possible clues.one place in particular looks very promising.the north end of ''Rue de Motte Baudet ''. if you Google Earth the field directly across the river you will see some very distinct straight tracks.these are between 15' and 20' wide(using Google ruler) and from ground level appear quite deep.
where the DLI guarding this as well as the road at this point the main road is only 220 yds from the river.the account i read stated that the position came under fire from both sides of the river.
before i go any further i would like an opinion from someone out there who knows a bit more about tanks than i do.
ivor.
oh, john, i think i have found the Motte as in Rue de Motte Baudet. a small village about 3.5 miles N called La Motte-au-Bois.
Ivor, if you look at the map I posted you'll see the name 'Motte Baudet' north of the canal. Your road was probably named after it because it led there before they dug the canal.
I was a tankie once, so I'll have a shufti at your bridge site tomorrow.
John
hi.
seems a lot further west than our road.flying back to uk tomorrow am. so will have another look tomorrow evening.
ivor
If the Rue de Motte Baudet led from Calonne to the nearest ford (and you have to cross the Lys to get to Motte Baudet) the position of the road may be entirely logical. I have no way of finding out, I'm afraid.
Re your tank tracks, Ivor: tread width of the German Pz III was about 15", if I remember correctly, so that's a good argument. But would the tracks still be visible after 72 years? The fields look cultivated, the Lys further west is no more than a ditch, if that, so a tractor might be more likely. Or even the pre-canal continuation of the Rue de Motte Baudet. Local inspection would solve this...
John
Hello all,
The panzer mark 3 Medium tank had the following details. Country of origin Germany crew 5 weight 22,300 kg (49,060 Lbs) dimensions length 6.41 metres (21 feet) width 2.95 metres (9ft 8ins) height 2.50 metres (8ft2 ins) range 175 Km (110 miles) Armour 30mm (1.8 ins) Aus M version one 75 mm ,L/24 gun, 7.92 machine gun. power plant one Maybach H L 120 TRM 12 cylinder petrol engine developing 300 horse power ( 224 kW)performance maximum road speed 40 km (25 mph) fording 0.8 M (2ft 8 ins) vertical obstacle 2.59 metres (8ft 6 ins)
Regards RBD aka jungle1810
hi guys.
first, thanks brian for that info, very helpful.
now, i grew up on a hill farm in NE Wales. we had several fields around the farm which were never cultivated. they were only ever used as grazing for the cattle. also at certain times of the year wet/soggy areas would appear, if you drove a tractor through them it would leave deep ruts.
looking at the land in question i suspect that it may be grazing pasture and i also suspect that it may be wet in places. i have considered that they could have been grubbed out hedges. but i do'nt think the profile fits seems too wide. so i will stick with my tracks. if you drive 1 22 ton tank over soft ground it would leave a fairly deep set of tracks. but if you drive several dozen over the sameish piece of wet ground then some very deep and distinct marks will be left.if the land then is not cultivated i can see no reason why the marks would disappear. this piece of ground seems to have some odd features.
the light green patches could be standing water covered with algae. the green patches along side the ploughed field. as it goes northish it turns black the same color as the Lys. the sort of snake like marks near the top of the field could also be a track
of course this is pure speculation but if any of you even vaguely agree i will take it further.
ivor
Thanks for the additional info, Ivor. Being an old city rat myself, I'll gladly take your word for it. Although even in wet ground I would expect the tracks to have disappeared after 72 years. I am also rather surprised at the fact that judging by the ruts all the crossing tanks seem to have followed exactly the same course. Once past the contested crossing of the canal barrier I would have expected them to fan out. It's what I would have told my squadron to do.
As battlefield archaeology this is fascinating, but will it bring us any closer to the identification of the Ferme Boulet, I wonder?
John
john.
let me take your last point first.
i think it is crucial to locate the exact location of 2DLI. at the time. if they were positioned as i have suggested and the missing bridge was also here then farm boulet could well also be here. i will see if i can find the ref about the position coming under fire from both sides of the river.
if you look closely you will see some tracks amongst the trees to the left of the main northern track. so it is possible that some units went into the trees.the track to the right may be the units withdrawing into the woods later.
as a fan of 'Time Team' on a number of occasions very old features have been found by areal survey which are not clear from the ground.
i am wondering if it might be profitable to contact the local military history group to see what the local's think. but i will need teecee's ok on that
ivor
Ivor, if we go on like this, we'll be able to write a detailed history of the defence of the Lys canal. Sounds good to me.
As for the local historians, my first question would be "Where was the Ferme Boulet?", leaving contested crossings for later. But Tony is re-establishing his contacts in the area, so perhaps we should give it some time.
John
This is getting really interesting ....Im sure you will find where the farm was....
Interesting it surely is, Dennis. One of my friends who lives in the area has now joined the search, and there's nothing like a man on the ground, with local knowledge and speaking the language.
I'm reasonably confident that we'll get to the bottom of this.
John
good morning all.
at the moment i can not find the ref i was looking for, but i will. however the following link,
http://durhamlightinfantry.webs.com/france1940.htm
if you scroll down the entry for St Venant makes interesting reading. i suspect that they use St Venant for the whole area as we know from other accounts that they were detailed to hold St Flores.
from this account it will be seen that there was an intact bridge at this point,also that Bn HQ was also near a barn here.
it seems that some of 2DLI got over the bridge and i wonder if teecee's uncle was hit by machine gun fire while trying to get to the bridge.I assumed RSM Goddard would have been at HQ and this seems to have confirmed it.
now let me justify this thinking. first, this action occurred on 27th. according to RWF War Diary the ST Venant bridge was blown on 28th(poss 27th) therefore was not taken intact.
Second.the RWF Bn HQ's move to the Cemetery was it's 3rd move according to map 2 provided by jungle via bob. We must assume that 2DLI's Bn HQ was wiped out at the barn. to move to a position near RWF Bn HQ would seem to be a logical move.( er. well to me it would. )
finally. i feel that the sight of 2 German tanks smashing there way into a barn full of blazing hay bales for real.must have been one of the most terrifying moments imaginable.
on a personal level whatever the outcome of this thread it has given me a totally different outlook on what my father and all others of the B.E.F. went through.
Total Respect TO These Guys.
ivor
A very interesting site, Ivor, thanks for discovering it. I wonder if they could provide more information on the barn and the bridge, as they are certainly well informed.
John
hi john.i am glad it's of use but i am not sure of it's accuracy.it seems that we have all got some useful stuff out of this thread. but i think we have reached the limit of what we can do from the comfort of our armchairs.we will have to sit back and wait for your friend and others to come up with some answers. i dont think we can write a definitive account of this action but we my have cleared up some questions.
i suspect that farm boulet may have effectively ceased to exist at this time but we can hope that some locals may remember it's location.
ivor
I agree, Ivor, there's probably not much more we can do. But my friend is hot on the trail of the Ferme Boulet. I understand that all family members are now dead. That means that the farm will be under new management and will have a different name now. I am reasonably confident that he will find it. And my contacts in the German war graves commission and the Bundeswehr Museum are trying to discover more about that pathologist and his report. So there's hope.
On the whole, I think we did rather well!
John
hi again.
i found the ref i needed.it was,of all places in the RWF Museum Doc.Quote:-
''Apart from heavy shelling and the sight of numbers of German tanks and infantry moving across the front, 26 May was uneventful. The Durham Light Infantry took over Saint-Floris, allowing the Battalion to concentrate around Saint-Venant. Having sent the transport over the canal, Lieutenant Colonel Harrison sought permission to withdraw to the north bank, but this was refused, so the Battalion settled down to await the inevitable attack. This started at 8 a.m. on 27 May, and it was soon clear that no weapons were available that could stop the medium tanks of the 3rd Panzer Division. At 9 a.m. the Brigadier ordered the D.L.I. to fall back through the Royal Welch, but they were too closely engaged to extricate themselves. Colonel Harrison therefore ordered all his men who could get clear to double back over the canal bridge which was now under machine-gun fire from both sides. He followed them but was killed shortly after reaching the north bank. At this stage it was found that the engineers waiting to demolish the bridge were no longer there, so that the German tanks were able to cross on the heels of the survivors, killing some and taking others prisoner. ''
3rd Panzer Division:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51528342/G...on-10-May-1940
i think that i must have misunderstood this point when i first read it.i now think it means that the bridge was now under fire,not as i thought from Germans on both sides of the Lys. but from both the Brits and the Germans.
This i find rather disturbing.
ivor.
Fascinating thread guys, well done. It will be interesting to see how it later develops. Lots and lots of work still to be done on WW2, barely touched in reality. I think the interest in it from RWF researchers will increase when the Regimental Records volume covering WW2 is finally published. I still get a chill, when I read the passage in The Red Dragon, which describes the 1st Bn dug in overlooking the River Dyle, as they spot the first German troops on the other side of the river bank, the start of the retreat to Dunkirk for 1RWF. Most of the Bn's first ever taste of action. Which eventually ended in 1945 in the jungles of Burma(for the small few who managed to escape Dunkirk).
Disturbing, Ivor, but I wonder. According to the Official History the Germans were already entering Merville (NE of St Venant. Also, St Venant was the SW cormer of the British line, and the German line to the West could easily fire into the town from the North. Utter confusion, that's for sure.
John
interesting john, a have not been looking at the west of St Venant. i know that some of the RWF were isolated in Robecq.that A and C cos failed to reach bridge 4, the most western of the 4 around Robecq. and that A and D cos were ambushed on the Robecq - Calonne Rd. ok there was still a corridor open to the NE to Haverskirque which appears to have been the direction of retreat. on 27th or 28th when the bridge was blown so they were not that close on that side. but once tanks had crossed the river on their captured bridge then they could have fired on the town from the north bank.
would you do me a favor. would you read the quote in my previous post an compare it with the entry in the war diary.Re Bn OC. i would be interested in your thoughts.
ivor
Here is what I have, Ivor. Not the War Diary but a page from the Official History (Ellis L.F., The War in France and Flanders 1939-1940, HMSO 1953) and the relevant part of the accompanying map.
Re the CO, I think he made the best of a bad situation. Undergunned, undermanned, outgeneralled, what could the BEF do? Col Harrison had lost most of his battalion, could not even extricate the remnants of 2 DLI, and was in an extremely confused situation on the verge of going into the bag on the wrong side of a water barrier which was already being crossed by the enemy. In such a situation making a last stand is maybe good for the history books and the exhibit at the regimental museum, but for nothing else. Losing all one's trained troops will make winning the war, eventually, much harder. Anyway, if he was wrong he paid for it with his life.
John
Attachment 2793Attachment 2792
john.
thank you very much for the map and the info. if we could over lay this map on to a regular map i believe the breach would be more or less where i have been speculating. and the article states that ' Armoured Columns ' passed through the gap to Merville and lestrem. these two places are to the Right once you cross the bridge. these are going to create Serious tracks.
thanks john i suddenly feel a twinge of confidence that my speculation may be closer than we thought.
ivor
Hi ,Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
First post here just like to confirm as far as it can be the information on that site is indeed acurate.Its actually my site.I have been in touch with Tony for a few years now I have been able to provide him with contact to RSM Goddards son,contact re M Faivre through his work searching for Pte Tom Rodgers,The War crimes files regarding the shooting of PoWs at St Venant which led to the case of Soldier Six and the witness M Victor Boulet,The existance of the autopsy reports used by M Faivre and the Rodgers family which were compiled on 6th June 1942,Copy of the original buriel locations via `The Search for Tom` what I cannot give him is the exact location he seeks thats where you have excelled giving him some excellent advice and contacts.The nearest I have been to actually pin pointing the HQ is actually from the ARMAN website which stated `The 2DLI battalion headquarters is located in a farm located at the intersection of the street Amuzoires. and the canal`...the situation is confused by references to other Hqs not Battalion but Company Hq`s in the 2 DLI War Diary it states`The fate of the Rifle Companys will become clear after the war when those who survived and were captured can tell their story`.Just to add it appears the Germans were on both sides of the canal as the War Diary refers to 2 DLI being ordered out of their HQ onto the Canal Bank where German Light Machine guns were able to shoot them up from the rear.Keep up the Good Work and thanks for helping Tony out this was his Dads quest and now its his.All the Best
Jim
Welcome to the Forum research section, Verrieres.
If I understand you correctly, this (see map and photo) should be the former Ferme Boulet. Location would be very likely indeed.
John
Attachment 2795Attachment 2796
hi.
First may i welcome you to the forum. in the course of this thread i have visited the D.L.I site a few times. i accept that the information is correct. it just differs from the R.W.F. in certain aspects, this is partly what i have been trying to reconcile. in one of my posts i said i had been floating over the area . this particular spot was one of 3 i identified as a possible crossing. however,using Google Earth i spent quite a bit of time searching the North bank of the Lys for possible signs of the movement of heavy equipment etc. the only place i could find it was the field directly opposite the Rue De Motte Baude.
oh dam.....
john do you recall my saying ''seems a lot further west than our road'' could it be that after the war somehow the road names got switched ? could it be that the rue Amuzoires was actual at the end of the village.
john do you know the translation of Amuzoires ?
the photo of the farm shows a fairly new building which would be expected. but maybe too new.
Verriers thank you for the info and i can assure you that we will do all we can to assist tony. hope to see you on here again.
ivor
Ivor, the Rue des Amusoires is named after a large farm, Ferme les Amusoires, further south on the road to Robecq. It's in map square 17, just off my map, below square 11.
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
Hello Ivor,
I notice on a daily basis the difference in `official` accounts and the personal diaries and accounts others have supplied.I am not familiar with the diaries of the RWF but what I do know is the DLI diaries were lost and reconstituted later the DLI diaries for the period read more like a personal account rather than an account dictated by brigade and battalion orders and directions.
I have deliberately stayed out of this simply because I felt Tony needed the help of a `Fresh pair of Eyes`which this forum has provided.Like I mentioned I can not provide Tony with a definative answer and hope what I posted has not deflected any of you away from the sterling work you have all contributed todate
I will come back again as the War crimes file I posess has significant interest for those with a RWF interest but again for now I will retreat back to the shadows so I do not deflect Tonys quest for answers.
Best Wishes
Jim
good morning all.
first an apology. the Rue De Les Amusiores runs from Robeq to a point on the Lys just east of the St Venant Cemetery. where R.W.F.Bn HQ was also situated. i should have checked this last night before putting fingers to keys. my only defense is that we are staying with family at the moment and it was quite late. or could it have been a senior moment.
O.K. verriers.i agree that 2DLI HQ was near the cemetery and the RWF HQ. but it is my contention that it was there because the previous HQ had been wiped out at the bridge further east. whatever the name of the road there is,to me anyway, a lot of evidence that leads me to believe that the German break through occurred at the bridge, which we know was taken intact,to the east of St Flores. even john's latest map shows the breach well to the east.of this i am fairly confident.
let us assume for the moment that i may be right about the marks in the field to the north. the track to the right leads to a small wood. the field to the right of this wood also has some odd marks. would it be possible for this to have been a holding/regrouping area for units crossing the river ?
ivor
Good Morning Ivor,Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
Battalion Hq for 2 DLI was to the best of my knowledge set up in `a` farm which was shelled I believe by advancing German Armour forcing the DLI into a large Barn type building at the rear of the Farm Buildings near a canal..Apart from the fact it was very near to the RWF Hq in the cemetery thats all I can say for certain.
The DLI Companies were spread out over quite a considerable area and there is often confusion in relation to the Bridges I say bridges because there were two one over the Guarbecque Canal on the Rue Berthalotte which `D` Company 2 DLI were hoping to defend and the one over the Lys which the retreating DLI were stopped from crossing by German Machine Gunners on the other side.The confusion arises when each Company action report refers to their HQ without stating if this was Battalion HQ or more likely Company HQ the DLI had believe it or not ..one solitary map of the area.
Your theory may well have good founding I cannot comment as I am not very well versed in the actions of the RWF.The situation I believe in 1940 was termed `Fluid` many individual actions many HQ`s but very little documented regarding the final 2 DLI Hq which was finally overun on the 27th May1940 when Pte Anthony Corkhill was reluctantly left outside a Barn by his comrades and `dissappeared` from history.
Best Wishes
Jim
jim
i do not know if you accessed this link. but it indicates that 2DLI were holding St Floris not St Venant.
would this be of use you will need to scroll to he 4th entry
http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/nb.html
i think 'Fluid ' is a fairly conservative term for the situation at the time.i could think of some this is a family site.My father was BEF a signaler (RCS) attached to the 59th(4th West Lancs )medium RA. and although he died when i was very young some of the stories i heard were hairy to say he least.
I guess documentation was not really a priority at this time so it is not surprising that there is so much confusion. maybe with this thread we may clear up a little bit.
regards
ivor
Summing up:
DLI pushed back from St Floris to St Venant, uncovering a canal crossing near St Floris. New HQ 27th May in large barn close to RWF HQ in cemetery.
Here you have it all: farmhouse (the one on the previous photo), large barn, cemetery, canal. The large barn is also on the 1917 map detail I posted earlier.
John
Attachment 2797
Hello Ivor,Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
I am just heading out to work but if you or your fellow contributors think it would be of use I can post the 2DLI War Diaries for the 27th May 1940? If you think it will only confuse the situation I fully understand .Let me know and I`ll sort them this evening for you.
Baconwallah you may just have it there!
Best Wishes
Jim
john.
while i agree that this is the farm where the 2DLI moved their HQ with the RWF HQ in the cemetery. i am not convinced that this is farm boulet. i think we will have to agree to differ on this one at the moment and await results.
ivor
Feel free to disagree, Ivor.
In my humble opinion the Bn HQ was at the Ferme Boulet when it was overrun on the 27th, so this must have been the place. Still, we'll see what my friend in the area has to say about it.
Jolly good thread this!
John
john.
i totally agree a jolly good thread. i think we have learned a lot about this particular phase of the battle.
we have narrowed down the location of tony's uncle's death and i have every confidence that the exact site will be established.
in summary.i believe that the action, which resulted in Pte Corkhill's death. took place early on the 27th May 1940 near a bridge over the Lys at the end of the Rue De Motte Baudet. at the eastern end of St Floris.i believe that the 2DLI Hq was here at farm Boulet. and as a result of this action the HQ was wiped out. we know that Col Harrison of the RWF ordered all troops that could, to retreat over the bridge and i believe that this is when Pte Corkhill received his wounds from machine gun fire.
Due to the engineers not being in place to blow this bridge it was captured intact,thus giving the Germans access to the north bank and giving them opportunity to attack St Venant.
i also believe that this allowed the Germans to move large amounts of heavy equipment across to the north bank which i think is quite boggy in places which accounts for the tracks in the field. from here they went east probably regrouping in the field by the woods before attacking Merville.
it appears that as the BEF had moved north into Belgium all maps of France had been withdrawn so the units had only a rough idea where they were.which i think accounts for some of the confusion between positions in St Venant and St Floris.
whatever the outcome this has been totally fascinating.and the fact that Tony should ,at last, find where his Uncle died a great result. i am very pleased that i have been able to play a small part in it.
Tomorrow AM we are heading back to our base in Tywyn,West Wales where we do not have WiFI internet so i am only going to have limited access by my phone or by visiting our local library so after tonight i will be quiet for a while. chow will be keeping me informed with what is going on.
ivor.
oh, if you remember my speculation re some standing water around the field with the tracks. by some odd coincidence the Franco - Belgian border follows the water. ideas anyone...