Regimental Association Standard

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Originally Posted by jase hill

You are correct in saying your wasting your time, its done lets just get on with it.

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Actually they don't have to "Get on with it" They're civilians.

This is quite important Jase for those guys in the branches who have never served in the Royal Welsh. There has been some pretty painful times for all of us over the merger( and I obviously include all you guys still serving, which must have been even worse).

But not allowing those Ex Royal Welchmen to continue to parade under their RWF standard seems petty(if that is the case). Unlike me, they have devoted a considerable amount of time and effort supporting the serving guys, i'm sure they feel its a kick in the teeth.

Its a shame this situation has arisen. Certainly I felt that some of the sting relating to the merger was easing. This is bad timing. If its untrue, then it needs to be nipped in the bud. So we can focus on the real issues, which revolve around the 1st Bn undertaking the warfighting

Whilst The RWFCA is still the RWFCA we ex members of The Royal Welch Fusiliers should be allowed to march behind OUR Standard/Colours after all it was who we served with

Gentlemen

I have tonight emailed Richard Tuffney the Assitant Regimental Secretary in Cardiff and asked him to interceed on our behalf to get a briefing paper on where the position of Regimental Association Standards etc is vis-a-vis the discussion that has taken place on this thread to date.
If we get the story from the horses mouth so to speak, then all the supposition and rumours can be either qualified or denied and we can all either sleep soundly or challenge the position.
I hope I've not over-steeped the mark in acting as a mouthpiece but as Benny and Don can testify I like to speak my mind when I can see a possible wrong that needs correcting!

Cofion cynnes

Paul Hinge

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Originally Posted by Paul Hinge

Gentlemen

I have tonight emailed Richard Tuffney the Assitant Regimental Secretary in Cardiff and asked him to interceed on our behalf to get a briefing paper on where the position of Regimental Association Standards etc is vis-a-vis the discussion that has taken place on this thread to date.
If we get the story from the horses mouth so to speak, then all the supposition and rumours can be either qualified or denied and we can all either sleep soundly or challenge the position.
I hope I've not over-steeped the mark in acting as a mouthpiece but as Benny and Don can testify I like to speak my mind when I can see a possible wrong that needs correcting!

Cofion cynnes

Paul Hinge

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Hi Gentlemen,

Firstly, many thanks to Paul for contacting me regarding the concerns over the proposed Regimental Standard. I have been keeping a close eye on the comments on this forum and it is good to see that the forum is being used to good affect to voice opinion and debate and gain feedback – whether good or bad.


Without going into too much detail on the forum, (as I believe a short briefing note as suggested by Paul would be more appropriate), but the proposed Regimental Standard is not being introduced to replace any of the RWF identity, position or status. In short, the principal aim is so that the present day soldiers of The Royal Welsh have an Association of their own to join when they leave – after all, they would never have been a member of the RWF, RRW etc etc.


Whilst we would hope that everyone would embrace a new, larger Regiment - The Royal Welsh - we do understand that in practice this is not possible, and therefore we hold close the pride and passion felt by the Comrades and their Associations as well as the individual and unique identities of each of its antecedent Regiments. We are therefore working extremly hard to bring everyone together as one, yet at the same time, not forgetting or dis-regarding that which has gone on in the past.


Finally, and I don’t want to say too much more, because I know that words can sometimes become miss-construed, but the proposed Regimental Standard design is not in anyway biased towards any of the antecedent Regiments. The background colour of Green is solely because the colour of The Royal Welsh is Green. The Standard also includes elements of each of the antecedent Regiments, and in the case of the RWF, the Rampant Dragon. Ultimately, the design is pretty much as fair as it can be and it is likely that the wording will be in yellow/gold as opposed to black or white - so pretty neutral.


I appreciate that this is not a comprehensive explanation, and as mentioned, myself or Des Williams hope to put out a briefing note shortly to explain everything a little more clearly. Overall, I hope no bad blood is caused over this and that we can continue to build bridges together.

As always, I am here to chat or discuss any of your concerns via phone or email at any time.

Enjoy your weekend!

Richard Tuffney
Assistant Regimental Secretary
RHQ The Royal Welsh

Hey Everyone

Let's not put this issue out context, I only gave the information that I got at 1st hand from Capt Des Williams in general conversation and passed it on to you the forum members, and to give you the "Heads Up" so to speak. All my opinions as I said was on a personal status and was trying to get some feed back from forum members',which was received greatly. I am glad that Paul has made contact with RHQ Cardiff and they have set the books straight on this topic, so please don't "shoot the Messengers". Once again I'm sure that this topic will not go away and keep coming back to bite us in the bum?.

Regards
BennytheBall

PS:
Paul and Brian
I've sent you a PM.

Ian i wouldn't worry too much about it mate. After all we did go to war with Iraq with duff intel. I wonder are there any WMD's at RHQ?
Thank you Richard for your enlightening post, but as you say you have been monitoring this discussion and a heads up a little earlier may have eased the worries of a few concerned members.

Hello Ianto 07,
In reply to your e mail.In an interesting letter to The Times the writer is wondering why the 24th of Foot and their V.C's are not remembered in Warwick.

Dering lines was not built until early in the second war,The SWB depot was in the barracks. The oldest building (where the RRW museum is ) was built in 1805 for the militia In 1842-1844 an infantry barracks and cavalry barracks (as we know it today) was built with the keep added in 1877.

It was occupied by several regiments including the RWF in 1825 to 1830(Depot companies)In 1858 (2nd Batt) 1867 to 1869(2nd batt) 1870 to 1871
(1st Batt)

It became the depot of the SWB in 1881(after the defence of the Drift)
and remained so until 1960 when Cwrt-y-Gollen became the Welsh Brigade
Depot, and the 3 Regimental depots,Wrexham Brecon and Cardiff closed.
So as I pointed out it must be a certainty that no member of the 2/24th were trained in Brecon
In the origins of the 24th of Foot the following apears: Wales was sparesly populated until the expansion of the coal, iron, and steel industries in the late 19th century.Brecon had static population of only 5,000 people covering a wide rural area. In 1880 Brecon still had a population of 5033 (2551 males of all ages) while the County of Brecknock had a total population of 54,131 [B]the number of men of recruiting age was there fore very small The 24th Regimental Depot was founded in Brecon in 1873 and recruited in the Counties of Brecknock, Cardigan, and Radnor as well as the neighouring English counties for 5 years immediately prior to the Zulu War and most of the recruits going to the local 2nd batt the first Batt had seen over seas service
for 8 years prior to arriving in S Africa on the 4th of February 1875 At this moment in time the first Battalion's link with Wales was at the very best tenuous indeed,in fact it's Regimental march was "Warwickshire Lads"
Further to your query on the "Small wars issue) in 1954 the Second battalion RWF served in the Malaya confrontation this was officially classed as an "EMERGERNCY" because if it was called a war insurance premiums would have shot through the roof so by definition it is an example of the RWF serving in a small war which is what you specifically asked for, and is mentioned in a book of Small wars The 2nd Battaliion lost 11 men killed in action during our three year tour of duty,one of whom was a Major Byrde (Welch Regiment) attached to2 RWF.In quoting Y Cymro as your bible they have not accredited the most bravest Welshman who served in the Great war with his correcrt medal entitlement. Here endeth the first lesson part two to follow
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

I'm sure I'm not the only one that remembers the massive effort made to prevent the merger of the 3 Welsh Regiments in the 60's, the RWF held out to stay the same, good luck to you. However, you were also lucky in not seeing the aftermath of that decision, which resulted in very many ex SWB/Welch members being posted to english regiments (many went to 1 D & D). I know a former Cheshire Reg't guy who said that initially they were being told to merge with RWF-I only know what he said.
However, with the standard issue, there was no debate about this topic for the King's Own Borderers - they were sent the design and told to get on with it. This makes ALL RHQ's guilty of riding roughshod over the associations? So this makes me think some-one higher up is pulling the strings on this one and it has been done to prevent the long drawn out arguments for and against which this thread is so adequately proving to do.
For all those that finished their service prior to 2006, the regiments no longer exist BUT the history is still there and that is OUR responsibility to keep it alive, irrespective of where we live and which regiment we served with. No-one can ever take that away from any of us.

Hello all including Richard,and Al
I must emphasise the fact that one of our most erudite members of the forum(Al) has got his facts right on the button again and I am indebted to him for being man enough to be so forth right and honest. To a lot of people we in the RWFCA do not know very well, he also dispels the myth of the amount of antagonism that this merger has spread over Wales since Dai's Day 2006. Al has always been a very good Royal Welch(S)man and a close friend and advisor to me personally. I am also well aware that his views help the new Regiment to the nth degree.He knows a lot of former members of both the Welch and the RWF.and is open minded.This is my first attempt to air my (and by definition my branches views on the new standard) What I find most offensive and disagreeable is ( If I am reading the information supplied so far as being correct)why are we threatened with expulsion from any parades in which our Colonel in Chief is present? if we do not accept the new standard and all it's implications this is a most reprehensible decision.I remember on one other ocassion this same opinion was expressed by a number of people that the RWFCA comrades would be forbidden to go on a parade when our Colonel in Chief was present our then branch Chairman Monty asked why we were not allowed on parade he (Monty) was asked what difference it made he replied that if we were not allowed on the Parade he would inform our Colonel in Chief he would disband the RWFCA asap, we did go on the parade as RWFCA and our Colonel in Chief had a talk with some of our members. Also as an academic point to me ,why were we not invited to discuss this most delicate issue after all the Welch regiment branch members who attended the meeting in Cardiff must also be civilians.? In passing one of my most favourite atributes is as I was once informed is " That I (RBD) make a very good friend but a very bad enemy, This has it happened has proven true on the 2/1/2006, when I was told a certain association did not want any thing to do with me or Bridgend RWFCA and as a consequence it is 4 years and not a word passed between the two warring factions.I have since met 3 most pleasant and affable people from Cardiif (RHQ) and whom I have been able to talk civilly to and been treated with respect, Thank you Major Tim Wheadon, Richard, and the WO 1 who invited my branch to attend the function in the recreation centre on the 2nd Battalion receiving the Freedom of the Borough, this is the way to go about improving fraternal relations not issuing ultimatums, and ignoring fellow comrades. In short gentlemen I am a student of history (Self taught) and I learn do a lot from history. As a point of interest after the Japs bombed Pearl Harbour on the 7th December 1941 Admiral Yamamoto stated that all Japan achieved was to waken a sleeping Bear. So if people and associations speak with circumspection they will gain far more than "Bombing" I think the whole issue of the new standard was very badly dealt with and little or no thought given to the consequences of threatening our association. I think the damage will be lasting and was not needed had we been dealt with in a professional manner.I hope I may be proved wrong on the damage factor caused by this stupid ultimatum A little bit of my family history, my father served with 1 Welch Regiment in the Great War and survived but unfortunately died when I was a seven year old. My eldest brother served in Palestine with 1 WG. my second brother served with 1SWB.in Ertrea. So if any one can be open mined it is I as a former RWF man who served with the first and second Battalions RWF.

Regards RBD akaj ungle

Richard
Many thanks for your prompt reply which is fairly comprehensive and informative. Can I ask you to also qualify the position regarding RWFCA parading with their standards now the new association is being formed? Are we (RWFCA) going to be allowed to parade alongside the new regiment when parades take place? Furthermore, as an RHQ, you need to consider that many of the senior members i.e. SNCO's upwards have served in the antecedent regiments and still have an effinity to those regiments as well as the RW. They will have to filter through the system and have retired before you have a wholly RW contingent that has no attachment to an antecedent regiment.
I have to say from my Branch's standpoint, I have 2 serving personnel with the RW who were former RWF who are branch members so there's still a long road to travel before the RWA becomes a stand-alone organisation in its own right.
Finally, you will of course need ex-serving members willing to run the branches and from my experience men leaving the Army or indeed any of the services are not interested in affiliating themselves to their regimental associations for quite some time so I would argue we (RWFCA) as a constituted association is still today, and for some considerable time to come, best placed to draw the ex-soldier/officer back into the fold so we need to be fully consulted and perhaps even best placed to advise how we progress towards the future needs and aspirations of those leaving the RW. After all, these young persons have differing priorities. So as you can see, there are many imponderables here that I feel have perhaps not been fully understood or even explored from on high.
A one size fits all template I'm afraid will be a recipe for a downfall.
Consult and listen, that's the way to a future we can all subscribe to!

Paul Hinge

Based on all the above I have two questions for all you stalwarts of the RWFCA:-

How many years do you think the continuation of seperate Associations for the RWFCA and the RRW Association will last, and how will they be funded for those years?

As there will only be one main RHQ, how do you foresee it operate and prioritise when allocating finance and resources?

Hi all, there have been some very good comments on the new standard, as being the ex Cardiff RWFCA Standard Bearer I hope you dont mind me commenting on this issue.

There is a lot of talk about standards being carried on parade, as we know in the future all of us will eventually go to the great parade ground in the sky. The Royal Welsh Fusiliers will always be close to my heart. But as people on here have stated we have to move with the times.

For this reason can I suggest that for parade purposes that all comrades are present, and the new RW standard takes the pole position, flanked by the other two standards (i.e RWF & RRW Comrade standards) then the new standards of the RW followed by the standards of the branches of the RWF & RRW, we would then see a dwindling of RWF, RRW standards over the years which will be a natural process, as this occures then RWF, RRW branches can form into new branches of the RW. With all comrades taking up the rear of the standards I belive this will show real comradship with people who have kept the tradition of these great regiments going.

I really dont think there is one comrade on here who would not have given his life to save the life of any other comrade RWF, RRW or RW, and thats what comradship is all about, I for one served and trained with many fellow soldiers from the RRW.

There are some positives I sure that social events would become more often and we all love a good social event, just ask my brother??

Hope you can understand what I am trying to say, maybe some will disagree with the way I have placed the standards, but that is always open to discussion.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, be nice to see what comments there are.

Thanks Benny Ball 415

The way i see it is this, we should be more concerned with dwindling branch members. Without members branches are struggling to keep going,to replace or buy a new branch standard would be a big finance for any branch.

Hello Gents, it's a long time since I've visited these shores. I hope this post finds you all well. I thought I might be able to add a bit to your discussions.

The standard is made up of two component parts that were decided upon two yrs ago. The first is the Royal Welsh Regimental colour being Green. This was decided in 2007 prior to my departure and the Regimental Crest made up of the RWF blue background in the centre, rampant dragon, Wreath of Immortelles around the outside and RRW motto underneath (the RWF did not have one). These were all put together and passed as the crest in 2007. All RHQ have done is put these two together into a standard for the RW. There is nothing new about it so why should they want to involve you.

You must remember that it is the standard of the RW association which you did not want to be a part of and therefore gave up your right to have a say in their standard. On the other hand the RRW association embraced the RW and became a part of it.

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Originally Posted by jungle1810

Also as an academic point to me ,why were we not invited to discuss this most delicate issue after all the Welch regiment branch members who attended the meeting in Cardiff must also be civilians.?

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RBD why would they invite you as it was a RW issue and not RWFCA. If you had attended you would probably have gone on about the SWB during the Zulu wars as you always seem to do. There are many examples of these tangents and petty stabs on these forums. You have already stated that you are an amateur historian "SELF TAUGHT". History is written and cannot be changed no matter how many different way's you interpret it. The term can't see the wood for the trees jumps to mind.

Politics and blame put aside there are many on here who can now see the merger for what it is (benny, ianto, AP etc). Yes the government made the decision and the serving soldiers followed orders as they always do. They made the best of what they had as quickly as they could because they had to get on with life. They did all this whilst fighting a war on two fronts (Iraq and Afghan). The changeover of the Pte - Cpl ranks in the battalions is so quick that an association for the veterans of this merger was needed ASP. The RW association was born. This was not done to slight the achievements of the RWF or RRW but out of necessity. As has already been said we all move on to the big parade ground in the sky and one day the RWFCA will need to become part of the RW association. Some of you may say 'over my dead body', well that just may be the case.

You will alway's be Royal Welchman who served proudly in the Royal Welch Fusiliers.

You will alway's be distinguishable as Royal Welch Fusiliers by you blue beret, bomb cap badge and hackle.

The Royal Welsh will alway's have the RWF, Welch Regt, SWB and RRW as part of it's history.

Gentlemen,

I have just this minute come off the telephone with Lt/Col Merfyn Lloyd Chairman of the RWFCA and have his permission to give you an update on the topic of this thread.
Maj/Gen Plummer and Lt/Col Lloyd have held a meeting with Maj/ Gen Porter regarding the RWA. It is written in stone that whilst there are members of the RWFCA and other antecedent Comrades Associations of the Royal Welsh wish to carry on they are able to do so and will sit alongside the new RWA with equal status.
The RWA needs to be formed as the regiment has now been in existence for 4years and they have members of that regiment who will have left the RW and have only served with that regiment and they need to enjoy the camaraderie that we do in a similar organisation. It is therefore for that reason and that reason only the new association will be formed.
Captain Des Williams who is the RWFCA Secretary will also be the Secretary of the RWA this will ensure we have the closest of liaison between the RWFCA and the RW. The RWFCA will stay as an autonomous body as long as we wish it to be!
The other concern was that when the RW paraded that the RWFCA would not be allowed to parade. Nothing is further from the truth. Gen Porter (ex RWF Commanding Officer) wishes to see as many of the antecedent regimental associations on parade as is possible in their individual regalia.
I have been informed that there will be a full parade (possibly at Chester Racecourse) on 10th June where the Colonel-in-Chief H.M.Queen will present the new RWA standard at which we will all be welcome to be on parade in our individual headdress, blazers and standards.
As members will see, there are no underhand moves to subsume the RWFCA into the new Association only a wish to work together side-by-side in harmony as after all these men are our successors and uphold the traditions and standards that we hold so dear.

Hingey

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Originally Posted by Paul Hinge

Gentlemen,

I have just this minute come off the telephone with Lt/Col Merfyn Lloyd Chairman of the RWFCA and have his permission to give you an update on the topic of this thread.
Maj/Gen Plummer and Lt/Col Lloyd have held a meeting with Maj/ Gen Porter regarding the RWA. It is written in stone that whilst there are members of the RWFCA and other antecedent Comrades Associations of the Royal Welsh wish to carry on they are able to do so and will sit alongside the new RWA with equal status.
The RWA needs to be formed as the regiment has now been in existence for 4years and they have members of that regiment who will have left the RW and have only served with that regiment and they need to enjoy the camaraderie that we do in a similar organisation. It is therefore for that reason and that reason only the new association will be formed.
Captain Des Williams who is the RWFCA Secretary will also be the Secretary of the RWA this will ensure we have the closest of liaison between the RWFCA and the RW. The RWFCA will stay as an autonomous body as long as we wish it to be!
The other concern was that when the RW paraded that the RWFCA would not be allowed to parade. Nothing is further from the truth. Gen Porter (ex RWF Commanding Officer) wishes to see as many of the antecedent regimental associations on parade as is possible in their individual regalia.
I have been informed that there will be a full parade (possibly at Chester Racecourse) on 10th June where the Colonel-in-Chief H.M.Queen will present the new RWA standard at which we will all be welcome to be on parade in our individual headdress, blazers and standards.
As members will see, there are no underhand moves to subsume the RWFCA into the new Association only a wish to work together side-by-side in harmony as after all these men are our successors and uphold the traditions and standards that we hold so dear.

Hingey

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Well said Paul.

Hello Paul,
Your e mail clears at least one point after you made representations to the powers that be, all the rumours and false info was clarified. It is now as Churchill once remarked "Jaw jaw is better than war war" Even allowing that expats from the Antipodes are not in the least bit affected having left our shores for reasons best known to themselves they seem most unduly peturbed over a matter that has little or no bearing on them now they are domiciled many thousands of miles away. All that was needed was correct and detailed information to be chanelled to the RWFCA. I think it best that the RWFCA be the best judge of what they care about, and not to be ruled out of consideration because we exercised our rights in a perfectly democratic way. In short the RWFCA knows what is best for the RWFCA, and should not be disenfranchised this is what gets peoples "HACKLES" up. Re sniper "MYCOBBER" keep your loaf well below the fire step and do not take a third light from a match for your cigarette despite rumours to the contrary I did miss your input for a while nice talking to you again.
Regards RBD

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Originally Posted by jungle1810

Hello Paul,
Your e mail clears at least one point after you made representations to the powers that be, all the rumours and false info was clarified. It is now as Churchill once remarked "Jaw jaw is better than war war" Even allowing that expats from the Antipodes are not in the least bit affected having left our shores for reasons best known to themselves they seem most unduly peturbed over a matter that has little or no bearing on them now they are domiciled many thousands of miles away. All that was needed was correct and detailed information to be chanelled to the RWFCA. I think it best that the RWFCA be the best judge of what they care about, and not to be ruled out of consideration because we exercised our rights in a perfectly democratic way. In short the RWFCA knows what is best for the RWFCA, and should not be disenfranchised this is what gets peoples "HACKLES" up. Re sniper "MYCOBBER" keep your loaf well below the fire step and do not take a third light from a match for your cigarette despite rumours to the contrary I did miss your input for a while nice talking to you again.
Regards RBD

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Well said Richard.

"Even allowing that expats from the Antipodes are not in the least bit affected having left our shores for reasons best known to themselves they seem most unduly peturbed over a matter that has little or no bearing on them now they are domiciled many thousands of miles away".

Hello Jungle

do your comments include all expats who are members of this site or only the ones who disagree with your views ?

Colin

It is good to see that the RWFCA is to stay and that Des 54, will be Regt Sec as well as being Sec of the RWFCA.

Regarding the prsentation of the New Standard by the Colonel in Chief, have the Queens and Regimental Colours been presented by Her Majesty. If not, is there a likely chance that they will be presented to the 3 Bns on the same day as the presentation on the New Standard.

G'day Jungle, I thought I would post again as it's my democratic right to do so. Where have I heard that before? You tell me I have no business in discussing this because I left the UK. Perhaps you should read your own post again matey as it talks about democracy, free speech etc. Well I'm using my voice just as you use yours Cobber. Even though I'm thousands of miles away I'm still better informed than you. As the secretary, chairman and 3rd member of the Singleton Branch of the fledgling Royal Welsh Association it gives me the right to talk about this.

I can also spout qoutes -

'It is a small mind indeed that is afraid of trying something new or unknown'. Anon

'Knowing a lot of facts is not the same as being smart' - Anon

And my favourite in relation to this situation 'you've got to be in it to win it' - the national lottery.

As a point of fact I'm not afraid to put my head up above the fire step and I don't smoke.

Benny - I hope the Queen does present all the colours. That will make the day very special indeed.

well said Matt!!

UK Sniper its Bertie Bal 01l not Benny Ball 54 that asked about the Queen I hope it will be her.

Have a g"day Cobber

Gentlemen I believe this thread is getting too personal and bitchy.can I suggest that the likes of myself, UK Sniper, Coops 13 and anyone else who has never served with the RWF stay out of this thread and leave it to the RWFCA as it is their business and clearly they feel very strongly about it. Could I also ask Jungle 1810 to resist having a pop at the battle honours of the 24th Regiment of foot which clearly inflames the likes of myself. Is it any wonder we struggle to get young people to join our dwindling ranks when we act like the old farts Statler and Waldorf from the Muppet show?

The aim of the original post was simply to inform. It is now in danger of degenerating into a slanging match and repetitive stalemate.

There is a fine line between moderating and suppressing debate, however, as I've no wish to see further fuel added to the fire I have closed this thread.