saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

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23-06-2013, 19:04
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi All.

Thanks for the info Jim, when exactly did the photos emerge for sale. was it since the start of this thread, if so maybe someone has realised that money could be made out of them. But what else may be out there. I may be a suspicious old sod but if they did appear after we started this investigation i just may detect a slight whiff of a certain Frenchman. Of course i may be totally wrong.
But the main purpose of this post is something different.
I am, probably like yourselves, somewhat puzzled, even annoyed, by the reluctance of the Authorities to come up with the info. I can think of 2 reasons for this,
First. they DO NOT HAVE IT. if so WHY? was it lost,Buried, a long time ago for some reason. possibly to protect reputations ?
Second. is it covered by the 70 odd year rule, if so why not say so.

Now i am going to ask for your help for the next part, because i do not know how to do it, or if it at all possible.

Under the Freedom Of Information Act. what is the basis for a request.
What i am thinking of is it possible to request, if it is available, the records of the German Aid Post at Calonne.
My thinking is this. We know who are buried in Calonne but we do not know if they died in the Aid Post. Also the record should have the names of persons admitted and when. If as i believe there is a possibility that Anthony could have been taken there, then this is a way of establishing this possibility.
But i am not sure where a record of this nature would be , would it be with U.K. Authorities as it dealt with British Personnel, or would it have been retained by the Germans. But some record must exist somewhere.

ivor
23-06-2013, 19:10
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The records of the aid post, if they were kept at all, and if they survived, are not in German archives or my friends would have found them by now.

John
23-06-2013, 19:34
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John,
Thanks. That is what i thought, but, if they survived, they must be somewhere.
I would have thought that they would have been available to those working on the 41/2 clearances or how else could they have obtained exact info re Dof D. especially those bodies removed from the School Field

ivor
23-06-2013, 19:44
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor go here mate, https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/mod

Remember though they will not accept or reply to generalisation requests they must be specific also IF the documents come under the 75 year rule then they will not release them under any circumstances until the date of expiry. If the documents contain reference to Organisations like SOE or SIS (MI6) or people that later served in those departments in any way then they will not be released until 2030.

Cheers

Dave
23-06-2013, 19:51
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Dave.
Thanks for the link.Believe me my request will be most specific.. will keep you all informed.

ivor
23-06-2013, 20:12
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

No probs Ivor, only mentioned the SOE/SIS beacause i have found out a fair bit more about what dad was up to when he came out of hospital after Dunkirk, when we meet i will explain but i reckon you could hazard a guess from what we have discussed in the past.

:twitcy::shocked::coolicon:
23-06-2013, 20:14
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The official dates of death appear to have been wild guesses at best. The men in the Robecq Road mass grave were all killed 27/05 and buried within a day or two. Yet dates of death according to the CWGC vary from 21/05 to 08/11. Not much good to build your case on.

John
23-06-2013, 21:17
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi Guys.
Dave , i fully agree with your comments re SIS/SOE. I will be back in U.K. from 15 July for about 5 weeks so we may well be able to arrange to meet.

John. i Fully agree with you with regard to the D o D, with regard to the Majority of those KIA. But the circumstances of the men who died in the Field Hospital or in any other Hospital,surely, must be somewhat different.
Even if only Minimum Records were kept, Surely they would contain, Name, Date of Admission, Nature of Injury, Date of Release to PoW Or DoD.
I would have thought that would have been a requirement of Geneva Convention.

ivor
24-06-2013, 17:09
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

This is not strictly relevant to the thread but it may help to explain why we hit walls if there is any mention of anyone that later served with the SOE or SIS in the records then the following sent to me my an expert in the subject will apply, it may even be the reason why i get no replys from the Wardrobe on any enquirys i make to them about St Venant. Because dad going on to "special ops" and spending a lot of time at Shorncliffe because it had an airstrip and was only a short hop to France, when asked why he did this he said hey wanted people who knew northern France and spoke very good French

 The SOE was to some extent a law unto itself in how it was staffed and operated, due to its very constitution it had no formal existence in the armed services so they either made up its units as pure fiction (the classic example of this is that of Major Woods 'E.S.6. (WD)' at Aston House) or contrived a suitable cover unit (eg I.S.R.B). In many cases already serving military personnel seconded to the SOE retained their unit identity (especially where special or tactical knowledge was their particular skill) however the pool is also muddied by the fact that the SOE not being a recognized unit during WW2 had a high level of effectively civilian upper management (albeit 'commissioned')... traditionally the espionage world is populated by people who know people rather than people who applied for the job.

SOE papers do exist in TNA, and slowly they are being made public domain however as you say personnel files are by Chancellors order retained for 100 years (on the assumption of individuals birth in 1930) if the individual is either proven or thought to be alive. However SOE personnel files of surviving/living members can be accessed by the member without restriction (post 2003 from memory).... but, the decision was made that any file of a living member that contains information of a member thought or proven to be alive will still be restricted without formal consent of that individual too.

So in reality this is a bit of a daisy chain as in most cases one document relates to another and that relates to another an so on...... but it is by no means a fait accompli.

Information on accessing the SOE files at TNA is obviously on the TNA website, I cant be 100% sure but in the past they were under the purview of Howard Davies in the Records Management Department. File statement: Special Operations Executive: Personnel Files (PF Series) code: HS9

It is also worth noting, that although the files initially can only be accessed by the surviving SOE member, once this has been done and there is no restricted material within they be released for family/public viewing if the member gives formal permission in writing to the appropriate archivist.

Last bit of advice I can give on the topic so far is that as suspect a large proportion of the SOE documentation was possibly destroyed by fire at the end of the war whilst in storage at Baker Street (many I have spoken with have some suspicion over this fact.. or more to the point if this was accidental or deliberate!). Below is the TNA statement put out when there files were released and there was a lot of dismay at the gaping holes...

..."SOE's archive is confused and incomplete. To some extent this is due to the haste and piecemeal fashion in which the organisation developed. For reasons of security no central registry was kept and each branch kept its own papers according to its own filing system. Toward the end of the war there was an attempt to reclassify the papers by subject, irrespective of origin. Only about a quarter of this task was completed in 1946 and as a result two unfinished systems of classification were left. Moreover two major destruction exercises took place, firstly the Oriental mission in Singapore destroyed it files in light of the pending Japanese advance and secondly the Middle Eastern Mission in Cairo, one of SOE's largest foreign stations, similarly destroyed its records as the Germans approached Alexandria. Instructions were subsequently issued for all surviving papers to be sent home after weeding of ephemeral material (Massingham, the Algiers base operating in France, destroyed virtually all its records with the exception of the personal files). Furthermore, a drastic weeding exercise was carried out by inexperienced staff in London. A fire in late 1945 also accounted for a further unknown number of files. Suggested subjects include Finance, FANY, Belgium and Poland. As a result an estimated 85% of SOE records held in London were destroyed..." The National Archive 2002

If your father was with SIS TNA will be a greater help as SIS was much better organised (being of military decent), they held a full Registry unit (incidentally based not far away in St Albans).


Sorry in advance if this bores you witless
Cheers

Dave
24-06-2013, 17:59
jungle1810

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello,
My apologies for using this thread to mention some good books. I am unable to get into the "Recommend a book section"I can recommend the following books.
"Shot at Dawn by Julian Putowski and Julian Sykes the book lists all the men shot at Dawn with little pen pictures of the badges of the regiments they served in and full details of why they were arrested and the charges that led to their execution.
"Great battles of World War one" By Anthony Livesy. This book contains 20 of the battle sites in the Great War with photos and maps plus a Gazetteer which provides details of the battle sites mentioned in the book Flanders, The Somme, The Verdun area, with many useful addresses.
"Defeat at Gallipoli" by Nigel Steel &Peter Hart. This book contains maps and a definitive story of this campaign.
Regards R B D aka jungle1810
26-08-2013, 23:22
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi, Its been a while so I thought I`d pop back with an update on how things are going .
Anyone following will recall the list of PoWs from 2 DLI that I posted ? Thanks to Mr Brian Simms we have been able to establish that out of the whole list including officers there are no records to suggest any of them filled out Liberation questionaires or followed up with Forms Q.
In relation to updates from either the MoD ,CWGC or the MP ...there has been none.
The `Missing Men File` from the National archives dealing with the DLI has ,after researching those named within it, proved to be a part file (only) dealing mainly with men of `D` Company. Other men known to be missing like Anthony Corkhill have no mentions what so ever.
Contact with other families has resulted in the finding of another `wounded` soldier who disappeared the family were told he died in hospital possibly in an air raid? But no one knows where he is buried.
In relation to those whom enquiries were made then a pattern has emerged most were last seen alive but wounded on their way to the aid-post or awaiting medics.
An enquiry in 1946 (I now have the file) into War Crimes at St Venant focused on four cases (there were more) Statements were taken from men of the Germania SS Regiment who were present in May 1940.In the statements none of those interviewed admitted any knowledge of the killing of British soldiers at this time and each one denied any orders were given at Regimental level in relation to prisoners. Indeed few claimed to have actually been at St Venant when the town fell most speeding on to the Forest of Nieppe. There is a mention that another unit was operating in St Venant and from the descriptions of the uniforms, insignia and rings which these soldiers wore they were likened to Totenkopf SS (not in the area according to official publications) and there was a note in the file that further investigation into this was needed.
The investigation were satisfied that someone at a lower level of an unknown unit had issued an order..and these are the words in the official file..." That no prisoners be taken and wounded British soldiers were to be slaughtered" Some of those killed are known to be Royal Berks but other cases the victims are unknown ,wounded soldiers executed and plenty of civilian witnesses and their testimony was accepted by the court. The file reiterates that whilst only 6 cases are dealt with over 60 soldiers may have been murdered.
An account by the DLI signals officer Michael Farr was thought to exist I reviewed the Family papers last week but could not find the detailed account which does exist.In a letter to his mother following his capture there is reference to hundreds been killed but the letter was not the right way or time to go into detail of what had happened.
Whilst I was looking through the papers Mr Simms contacted me to tell me Farr had completed a Liberation report together with numerous others these Questionaires are currently `locked` in a MI 19 file. He has put in a Freedom of Information request to view these only to be told they are not there! He knows they are and will take this up on a later visit.
Tony is to recontact his MP it was my intention to offer to accompany Tony (as a bit of moral support) to visit his MP however his surgeries and my shift pattern make this impossible at present.

That I think is that for now although I`m sure I have simplified things a little, not much to hearten the search but we soldier on..

Best

Jim
27-08-2013, 05:21
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Thanks for the update Jim, much food for thought in it.
13-09-2013, 12:19
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi Folks.
Been a quiet summer but something has come up which just might have some relevance to Jim's research into 2 DLI. Have a look at the Thread
4192026 L/Cpl Leonard Brooks.
While not directly connected to this thread it contains info re the PoW situation.It might be that Brooks was a survivor of Robecq (B Co RWF) who ended up in Stalag XXA in Poland.With some 4,500 others from Dunkirk.
It is possibly worth reading the Wartime Memories Link. as it was a march of some 800 + miles and a lot of guys died during the march.
What would have been the procedure in these circumstances. a field grave. But would they have been recorded, and dealt with under the clearances. or are there dozens of unknown grave along the route of the march.
To strengthen this theory. there is evidence that RSM Goddard was in Stalag XX1B which is only 45ish miles from XXA. Have a look and get back to me.

ivor
19-09-2013, 16:06
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi All.
A thread has just been posted which contains something that may have some serious implications for this quest.

Private 9956 John Woodford, RWF WW1.

AP1 has attached a MIC which has the annotation '' Death Accepted 30/10/14 ''.Now in explanation Richard Ward says that usually, at that time, that would indicate the last time they were known to be alive. I have asked him for confirmation if the same system was being used in WW2.
This would have a considerable impact on our search and the responses from ''Officialdom''. we have worked on the assumption that it was evidence that Anthony was known to have Died on 29/5/40. if the WW1 system was being used then that may have been the last date he was known to be Alive. I hope someone can clarify this as it would change things quite dramatically.

ivor
19-09-2013, 16:35
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

This would indeed open a whole new can of worms
19-09-2013, 16:39
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Here is the full text, Ivor:

"It is my painful duty to inform you that it has been decided by the War Office Casualty Branch that in view of information received by that department and the lapse of time during whieh no further news has been received your son 4449147 Pte Anthony Corkhill 2nd Bn Durham Light Infantry will be recorded as presumed died of wounds on or since the 29th May 1940."

In short, Anthony was still alive, apparently, on the 29th and then disappeared.

The crucial bit is of course the 'information received' - what was it, who gave it?

John
19-09-2013, 16:53
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quite agree John, of course if it was one of his companions or in fact anyone given the info by word of mouth to the authorities then they may well be deceased logically there fore we are only going to find out more on this subject if something was put down in writing and this i suspect will not be the case. Do you know the date this sad message was given to the family ?

Dave
19-09-2013, 16:54
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
you may have missed a bit. and from WHERE.

ivor
19-09-2013, 17:17
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The 'who' will also answer the 'where', I think.

The letter was dated 28th November 1941. Points to a returning PoW in my opinion.

John
19-09-2013, 17:34
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi.
So this letter is only a 'Presumption of death' not a notification of death. In fact a 'missing in action'.

ivor
19-09-2013, 17:41
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

"The letter was dated 28th November 1941" John surely the only way a POW could be returning to Britain in 1941 is if he was in dire straights health wise or am i missing something here. My feeling is that the information came from the RSM when he was released, do we know when that was. There is one other possibility though, that is that a POW had contact with the Red Cross and they passed the info on to the authorities in 1941.
19-09-2013, 17:54
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

A sizeable number of PoWs were repatriated for health reasons in 1941, several DLI among them. There is a list and Jim has it, I think. So far, a dead end.

The RSM was released post-war. He has stated twice (first in reply to a Red Cross request during the war, then again post-war in a letter to the family) that he last saw Anthony on the 27th. He had asked around among his fellow PoWs but never discovered what had happened to Anthony.

The Red Cross has no record of any correspondence re Anthony except the RSM's reply mentioned above. Had there been any, they would have passed the information to the family, not to the authorities.

John
19-09-2013, 18:15
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Thanks John, so by this it would seem Anthony was still alive 4 days after the RSM observed him on the canal bank this would seem to preclude the executions around that date and would suggest he was eithrer taken to hospital as suggested or maybe even hidden by the French for those days
19-09-2013, 18:26
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi again.
With regard to the possibility that he was in the Aid Post from 27th.
The Aid Posts are by their nature mobile units which follow the front line. If an AP had a number of wounded PoW's and it was required to move on, what happened to said PoW's, i doubt that they would have been taken with them. Similar doubts about them being left at local Hospitals as that would have involved leaving men to guard them.So what would have happened to them.
Where would the German wounded be treated, did they have a ''Base Hospital'' type of unit which could have had a secure area for the PoW's, if so where?.

ivor
19-09-2013, 18:39
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, following up after the assault troops would have been Fedgendarmerie units (Field Police, very much the same as our Military Police only with a lot more power and a lot nastier ie they shot rather than arrested including there own men if they showed any inclination not to fight) to secure the area and maintain a presence untill the garrison units arrived a few days later, there may even have been some units of German civilian Police brought in (many Police units were formed during the war for just this reason) including ones working for the Gestapo in Russia.

I dont think the field Aid posts would as you say be able to cope with wounded being moved with them, they would be off loaded somewhere though where is debatable.

Cheers

Dave
19-09-2013, 18:51
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
in that other thread re PoW'S it was known that the RSM was in Stalag XX1b which was officers. If Anthony got to that area he would probably have been in XXa. So there probably would not have been any knowledge of Anthony.

ivor.
19-09-2013, 20:48
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I have corrected the date in my post #622: the RSM last saw Anthony on the 27th, not the 25th. After the war he wrote, "During the time I was a PoW I made many inquiries from men of the Battalion but I am sorry to say that I was unable to procure any further information regarding him."

The VDK (the German War Graves Commission) told me they have no records of medical units in the 1940 campaign.

John
20-09-2013, 18:30
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi Guys.
Just found this
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...iederung-R.htm

looks interesting.

ivor
20-09-2013, 19:38
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

None in France, Ivor, unlsees you count the reoccupied Alsace.

These were/are large and highly specialised hospitals, nowhere near two days from the front.

Try Feldlazarett.

John
20-09-2013, 20:18
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi.
Just looking over the list there is one interesting point that answers one of my earlier queries, a number of the Hospitals are shown as PoW hospitals. However there is hospital at Verdun. would this be within a couple of days travel from the front ? also it is fairly close to the German border.

ivor
20-09-2013, 20:40
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Verdun, in the last days of May 1940, would be on the other side of the moon to the Germans as it was still French. The fortress did not fall until June 15th.

John
20-09-2013, 21:26
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
Thanks i wasn't aware of the dates.
As i said in a previous post the Aid Posts were by nature mobile organisations which worked independently. But, surely, they were responsible to someone. For example. any wounded German would not have been kept at the Field post for long,surely, they would have been taken somewhere else,further away from the front. A Clearing hospital ? which in turn would have been responsible to a Base or main hospital. if we are correct in assuming the Field Aid Post at Calonne closed down on 29th then would it be safe to assume that there would have been German troops there as well as Brits. so where would they have gone? would Cologne be an option?

ivor
20-09-2013, 22:26
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

A General Hospital would receive the serious cases. All others would be sent from the Aid Post, the Verbandplatz, to the divisional Field Hospital, the Feldlazarett, with 200 beds, and even the serious cases would probably have had to go through there. Unfortunately there is little or no information on the medical services set-up in the war zone. We know how it was organised, but the where and when of individual units are hidden deep inside the divisional war diaries - if they still exist.

John
20-09-2013, 23:21
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
You probably know this. but it is interesting reading. came from Feldgrau.net.

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewto...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

seems that the Base Hospital was at Btn HQ.

ivor
20-09-2013, 23:36
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Not so, Ivor. a Base Hosp would be in the rear zone. It had nothing to do with fast moving units such as Divisions and Corps. The largest a Div had was the Feldlazarett, the FIeld Hosp. At Battalion level there were just two Medical Officers, much overworked. Even a third MO for the 3-bn regiments could not be realised due to continuing shortages. If there was one, he was not a surgeon but a gas specialist.

John
22-09-2013, 17:01
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Folks as i understand this is how the German military evacuation of wounded took place for there own wounded, i assume Prisoners would go the same basic route.

HOSPITALIZATION AND EVACUATION The chain of evacuation of German wounded was found to be very similar to that utilized by the US Army, but triage, that is sorting of patients for specialized hospitalization, differed in several important aspects. First aid to the wounded was rendered in a Verwundetennest by a medical non-commissioned officer, in an extreme forward position. This treatment can be said to compare in echelon to that given by a US company aid man on the field of battle. Here the first dressing, improvised splinting for transportation ease, traction splinting, pressure bandages and tourniquets were applied. The wounded were evacuated from the Verwundetennest to the Truppenverbandplatz, which corresponded to the American battalion aid station, and where the first medical officer, corresponding to the US battalion surgeon, practiced. Treatment given at this station included: checking of the dressing (unless there was some indication the dressing was not to be disturbed) ; tracheotomy; application of occlusive dressings to open chest wounds; relief of pain; preparation for further evacuation to the rear; shock therapy in the forms of peristone, physiological salt solution, coramine, and external heat by electric heaters; prevention of infection, by injection of tetanus antitoxin and gas gangrene antitoxin, administration of sulfapyridine by mouth, insufflation of sulfanilamide powder into wound at time of first dressing, pressure bandage, and arrest of hemorrhage by application of tourniquet (rarely by hemostat or ligature); and catheterization.
From the Truppenverbandplatz all the wounded were evacuated to the Hauptverbandplatz, which was established about four miles to the rear of the combat line by the Sanitaets Kompanie of the division. This unit was staffed to perform the functions of both clearing and hospitalization. Its Tables of Organization provided for two operating surgeons, but in times of stress six or eight more surgeons might be added. The unit was designed to hospitalize two hundred patients, but often expanded to three or four hundred. When the flow of casualties was not heavy, all those patients with abdominal wounds and other non-transportable cases were given primary surgery at this installation. In addition, primary surgery was performed on minor wound cases here as well. All cases with major compound fractures, brain wounds, and chest wounds were evacuated to the Feldlazarett or to a Kriegslazarett, where they were treated with more definitive care. In the German medical field manuals the functions of a Hauptverbandplatz are listed as: tracheotomy; closure of open chest wounds; aspiration of the

603
pericardium in cardiac tamponade; emergency amputations; final arrest of hemorrhage; administration of blood and blood substitutes; surgery on the non-transportables; and suprapubic cystostomy.
The Feldlazarett was the next unit in the chain of evacuation. It was an Army unit designed to care for two hundred patients. Ordinarily patients with head wounds and transportable chest wounds, severe muscle wounds, buttock wounds, and major compound fractures received primary surgery in the Feldlazarett. While it was attempted to perform intra-abdominal surgery as far forward as possible, such cases were often evacuated to the Feldlazarett for surgery whenever the Hauptverbandplatz was too busy. The Feldlazarett was staffed with only two surgeons, but in periods of pressure, it was often augmented by surgeons from other units.
The Kriegslazarett, or General Hospital, was usually assigned to the German Army Group. In Italy most of these installations were grouped at Merano and Cortina d'Ampezzo. It was their function to hospitalize all patients who were not returned to duty from the more forward units. In addition, certain groups of the wounded received primary surgery at the Kriegslazarett, such as penetrating head wounds complicated by involvement of the eye or ear, and maxillofacial wounds. In very busy periods, all patients with major wounds might be evacuated to the Kriegslazarett for surgery while the more forward units confined their surgery to men with wounds of such a nature that they would be able to return to their units and full duty within reasonable short periods of time after surgery. Also, as frequently occurred during heavy attack periods, abdominal and head wound cases were given no surgical care.
In addition to those units already mentioned, there were hospitals for the lightly sick, lightly wounded, and convalescent patients. In each German division was the Ersatz company which served as a replacement depot and reconditioning unit for lightly wounded who had received primary surgery at the Hauptverbandplatz. The wounded sent to this Ersatz company were given light exercise under the direction of a doctor, and were ordinarily returned to duty after one week. There were usually between fifty and one hundred lightly wounded in the Ersatz company, in addition to the replacements sent from Germany, who only stayed long enough to be equipped before being sent into combat. The officers and the doctor of the Ersatz company were limited service personnel by nature of previous wounds or illness.
In the army areas and in the general hospital centers, hospitals for the lightly sick and wounded were established by elements of transport units (Krankentransportabteilungen). They received their patients from Feldlazaretten in the Army area and from Kriegslazaretten in the Army Group area or hospital centers.
22-09-2013, 17:06
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Continued.

At the beginning of the war in Europe, all divisions had two Sanitaets Kompanies. At the end only the armored and mountain divisions had two each, but the Corps Surgeon had under his control one Sanitaets Kompanie for use where needed. When two Sanitaets Kompanies were available, two Hauptverbandplatzen were often established. In the beginning of an offensive, one Sanitaets Kompanie, horse-drawn, was placed only three or four kilometers behind the battle line to receive casualties. The other Kompanie, motorized, was held in reserve to be used after substantial gains had been made. Then, if further gains were made and the Hauptverbandplatz was required farther forward, the motorized Kompanie moved, leaving its patients to be taken over by the animal-drawn Kompanie. The patients of the animal-drawn Kompanie were left to be taken over by a Feldlazarett. Thus there were often two divisional units performing surgery ahead of the Army's most forward Feldlazarett. With a large-scale offensive division, army, and army group hospitals might all perform primary surgery only on the less seriously wounded, putting aside the intra-abdominal and intra-cranial wounds in favor of those who were more likely to live and return to full duty.

I need to stress here this is for the Germans own wounded but most i suspect would apply to Prisoners
22-09-2013, 17:08
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

thanks guys.
while digging i found the following.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...en/Sankp-R.htm

We know that one of these units was at Calonne, so i will try and identify which one, could take some time.
well i have plenty of that.

ivor.
22-09-2013, 17:18
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf

SS Field Hospital 3
22-09-2013, 18:51
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Sad to say i believe we have to take into account the nature of the units in this area at the time.

SS VT, a highly politically indoctrinated unit containing a regiment (Germania) that came close to being wiped out at Merville and was only saved by the intervention of elements of the Division Totenkoph who were themselves in the main ex Concentration camp guards and thus saw any prisoners as a hindrance (Wormhoult is an example) where they massacred 65 Royal Norfolk Prisoners (15 survived to testify yet no one was brought to account) . Even German prosecutors a few years ago said there was insufficient evidence to bring Wilhelm Mohnke to trial. these units would have been followed by There Feldgendarmerie troops (including one from Corps and Army) all looking for prisoners held in hospitals or hidden by local French or just simply hiding to avoid capture which was part of there job. On finding any they would nearly always have been taken into custody no matter how badly injured they were. Following this would have come the members of the SD who were very nasty and it would seem had no conscience a all about committing atrocities, and finally the garrison troops who were generally 2nd line divisions with older more unfit men unsuitable for 1st line use. A s i said in an earlier post there may well have been units of German civilian police in the area as well.

I have asked a friend of mine an ex pat who has lived im Germany for a long time and has had a lot to do with HIAG (The SS Veterans Organisation) to see what he can find out for us, he also has many contacts within the German authorities and is as far as i am aware the only person ever to have been allowed to teach an d dress as the SS side of things in museums etc without being arrested.

Hopefully he may be able to open up avenues which non of us can.

Cheers

Dave

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