saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

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28-04-2013, 20:37
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello,
i know Tony is going to come along and add something shortly.In relation to the staffing and enquiries every CWGC enquiry is given a unique reference number to which is attached the information provided by whichever customer service representative was dealing with it so each time Tony has enquired even if he got someone completely different they would know exactly what had been passed previously.Short time,part time or whatever supervisors know the procedure if people were there to simply draw a wage then these people would not be in a job very long.The CWGC have a charter they have a code of practice but for as yet unknown reasons they are playing games not only with us but a lot more people and have done for years now.
We are constantly receiving totally false reports,information and mis information from all parties,how do we know this? because we are not your average `Joe Public` making an enquiry for a family tree. `Joe Public` makes an enquiry he is told by the CWGC or the Ministry of Defence "Your relative died..blah blah blah..in the battle of...Blah Blah Blah" and `Joe Public` believes this,why should`nt they after all the CWGC and the MoD are respected organisations.I am sure they receive more `Joe Public` requests than those from people like ourselves who have a little background knowledge so the CWGC and MoD send us the same error filled replies which we in turn question and question again but they keep rehashing the same old rubbish because in the vast majority of cases they either convince the enquirer that they have made a mistake or people simply give up and cease pestering them. Its tried and tested but in some cases there has been break throughs ie Tom Rodgers.
On the the CWGC site I failed to spot a glaring error which thankfully John picked up on it refers to this;-

Quote:

In fact British troops continued fighting at St. Venant after the evacuation of Dunkirk,

No they did not so why has this been added? Perhaps this does not refer to the battle of St Venant at all? I believe the CWGC are refering to an action over 130 miles away at St Valery en Caux involving the 51st Highland Division who were indeed involved in fighting after the Dunkirk evacuation.
In relation to Forms Q the MoD and CWGC are `unfamiliar` with these forms ..as are the National Archives whose own researchers are `unfamiliar`with the term Form Q indeed the MoD in Whitehall wrote to Tony and said the only WW2 records of note they still retain are service records the other records being disposed of or destroyed a long time ago..do we believe them? `Joe Public` would I`m sure ,but we are not `Joe Public` and thank fully John has came up trumps again when he unearthed TS26/88 Repatriate statements on Form Q: Germany! Where is the France file hidden? Further down we find another file TS 26/224 which deals with Alleged German War Crimes;- La Bassee? Can they deny the existance of Form Q now ..of course they will!

Best

Jim
28-04-2013, 22:52
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I don't think there is a special 'France' file, Jim. There are only the "Germany, 'Japan' and 'Italy' files, so I would assume 'Germany' has to be read as 'The war with Germany'.

John
28-04-2013, 23:25
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

I don't think there is a special 'France' file, Jim. There are only the "Germany, 'Japan' and 'Italy' files, so I would assume 'Germany' has to be read as 'The war with Germany'.

John

Hello John,
Thanks for the clarification I was assuming they were the geographical theatres of war and not the actual `enemy` theatres .Cheers
Best
Jim
29-04-2013, 08:23
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

hi all
.i am still in Cardiff at the moment on a new laptop so dont have access to notes. but i am sure that the ref that fighting continued in the area after Dunkirk.is in an official history, and may have come from
Frenchmans account. will check when i get back later today.

ivor
29-04-2013, 09:49
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

but i am sure that the ref that fighting continued in the area after Dunkirk.is in an official history, and may have come from
Frenchmans account.ivor

Sorry, Ivor. The answers are:

No, it is not.
No it did not.

It seems Mr Andrews is confusing St Venant with St Valery-en-Caux, where the Highland Division fought on after the Dunkirk evac.

John
01-05-2013, 18:00
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi all.
First, Jim. An interesting post and i agree with most of what you have said. However there a number of points i am not sure about.
First, as you say we are not '' Joe Public '' and are not going to go away without answers. But in quoting the Tom Rogers example as a break through i am not so sure. As i understand this the Rogers Family were, like us, getting nowhere with MoD/CWGC until they were put in touch with M Faivre who appears to hold records that are NOT accepted by MoD/CWGC.
Now in order to investigate this further they would have had to accept the French files which appear to be from the 41/42 Field Grave Clearances, which they will not do. So in order to satisfy the Rogers Family have they allowed them a ''Buried near this Spot'' Memorial stone. This solved the problem.
But in our case that will not work so they appear to be somewhat more cooperative it is M Faivre that is not. Odd.
However i have a feeling that, in part, they may be telling the truth. I suspect that, for a couple of reasons, they may not have all the info, one being their not accepting the French Files. But, as i have said before, the facts as i understand them leads me to believe that Anthony is not in St Venant but in Calonne.
My 2nd point is with regard to this report that British troops were fighting in St Venant after Dunkirk i believe would have been quite possible. After the German breakthrough at Robecq the Germans pushed rapidly East and North to isolate Dunkirk. This i believe left a number of British troops isolated to the south of the Germans. would it not therefore be possible that they would then head for the St Venant area in trying to get to the coast.
The CWGC list for St Venant shows 15 men died between 30/5 and 1/6, OK i accept this may have been due to wounds but who knows.

Ivor
01-05-2013, 19:18
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

i must admit i have wondered about some of the dates myself Ivor but i put it down to mistakes by grave registration or as you say died later of wounds.
01-05-2013, 21:13
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Hi all.
First, Jim. An interesting post and i agree with most of what you have said. However there a number of points i am not sure about.
First, as you say we are not '' Joe Public '' and are not going to go away without answers. But in quoting the Tom Rogers example as a break through i am not so sure. As i understand this the Rogers Family were, like us, getting nowhere with MoD/CWGC until they were put in touch with M Faivre who appears to hold records that are NOT accepted by MoD/CWGC.
Now in order to investigate this further they would have had to accept the French files which appear to be from the 41/42 Field Grave Clearances, which they will not do. So in order to satisfy the Rogers Family have they allowed them a ''Buried near this Spot'' Memorial stone. This solved the problem.
But in our case that will not work so they appear to be somewhat more cooperative it is M Faivre that is not. Odd.
However i have a feeling that, in part, they may be telling the truth. I suspect that, for a couple of reasons, they may not have all the info, one being their not accepting the French Files. But, as i have said before, the facts as i understand them leads me to believe that Anthony is not in St Venant but in Calonne.
My 2nd point is with regard to this report that British troops were fighting in St Venant after Dunkirk i believe would have been quite possible. After the German breakthrough at Robecq the Germans pushed rapidly East and North to isolate Dunkirk. This i believe left a number of British troops isolated to the south of the Germans. would it not therefore be possible that they would then head for the St Venant area in trying to get to the coast.
The CWGC list for St Venant shows 15 men died between 30/5 and 1/6, OK i accept this may have been due to wounds but who knows.

Ivor

Hello Ivor,

The Rodgers family had what we seek the eyewitness account of Toms death from Pte Luke Bowden who saw Tom fall at the `other` bridge.The CWGC have the final say and this was swayed by the eyewitness report as the M .Faivre records could not be matched (according to `In Search of Tom`) with those of the MoD.As a result of the mis match Tom was denied a headstone over what M.Faivre identified as Toms actual grave. We find the eyewitness report of Anthonys death on the 29th May 1940 we find where hes buried.St Venant or Calonne we do not know but I still believe hes in St Venant,personal gut feeling nothing more.
The MoD and CWGC have not helped in the least to date? I`m not sure where you see they have M.Faivre has stated he knows nothing and the Cwgc and MoD continuously say they have nothing. What we are getting is mis-information there was no action in St Venant post Dunkirk (Today the CWGC agreed to re-evaluate their information regarding this yet its been on their website for years if John had not spotted it would it ever have been questioned?) this refers to St Valery en Caux which was where the Rodgers family were originally told Tom was killed(coincidence)
The dates quoted for men killed `between dates` bear no mystery these refer to last seen to body discovered these are assumed dates.Anthony Corkhill does not have an assumed date ,originally he did but this was ammended to 29th MAY 1940.There is no mystery regarding the date of death our mystery is where is the account of Anthonys death which enabled the date to be confirmed.Pension date 29th MAY 1940,Non Effective discharge DIED IN FRANCE 29th MAY 1940,Service records DIED 29th MAY 1940, CWGC Debt of Honour 29th MAY 1940.Landforces British Army DIED of WOUNDS 29th MAY 1940 and now Death Certificate Died of Wounds 29th MAY 1940 (Theres others)
The MoD remain silent whilst the CWGC state only one DLI casualty for the 29th MAY 1940..WRONG! Tony has questioned the latest update,I say update because it contained nothing new and nothing of relevance so we cannot call it information.
They replied with an admission that they are looking into their claims regarding the action post Dunkirk,they also admit they meant only one known DLI casualty in St Venant (Syd Walt which we told them) rather than a single DLI casualty that day they further state there were actually 7 DLI recorded as died on 29th MAY 1940 including Anthony. This is also wrong as there were 8 but we do not need to know this as only three were from the 2nd DLI , one Pte Clews died at home in Newcastle,so that gives us two Syd Walt and Anthony Corkhill (The other 5 were from the 8th,9th and 11th DLI fighting in another area) .The question of the number of unknowns also came into question there are 40 the CWGC quoted 50 theie explaination 10 are WW1 burials again we do not need to know this So why are we being given updates with even less information than we originally supplied them? The answer, this is how they normally respond to `Joe Public`tried and tested.
UPDATE
The CWGC had said a Corporal rests in the `unknown` grave next to Syd Walt they know he died in May but cannot confirm a date,strange as they have during past enquiries denied holding information on `unknown` soldiers,Tony to his credit has questioned this and been told today....we do hold records of all of the unknowns but information is limited (Hurrrrah are we getting somewhere)

Who filed the report confirming Anthony Corkhill died on the 29th May 1940, if his last official contact/sighting was on the 27th May 1940 by the RSM then this would have been used as an assumed date of death it was not,Anthony was never classed as missing he does not feature in any missing men file,there was no (known) correspondence his fate was known he is recorded as dead on the casualty list even before Syd Walt`s death was relayed back to the War Office even the Red Cross never enquired on behalf of the War Office(They made an enquiry at the request of the family).The Missing Men files, which I possess, have literally hundreds of enquiries sent out to comrades serving all around the world in an effort to determine the fates of Anthonys fellow Durham Light Infantrymen missing during the period 10th May-Evacuation,hundreds of letters and replies but not one solitary letter enquiring about Anthony Corkhill ....why?....Its my honest belief he was never missing !

Best
Jim
02-05-2013, 08:56
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi all.
I will not make any comment on this,yet, but this link makes interesting reading.

http://books.google.com.mt/books?id=ZM71HK2ysoAC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&dq=St+Ven ant+may+1940&source=bl&ots=KTTQ_pcwOt&sig=1MBMgJsf fK1G9U5VZGwpK_nIR4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d1KBUe-vKITZ4AT1qYHIAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q= St%20Venant%20may%201940&f=false

A somewhat different version of events.Hmm.

I think the author of the book from which this is taken, Dunkirk: Fight to the Last Man.needs no introduction.

ivor
02-05-2013, 16:29
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

So the brigade commander put the brigade on the south of the canal instead of the north which seems to back up what the FOO told my dad about the artillery strike though of course it relates to the 27th where as dad said they were hit on the 24th and the date of death of his mate says the same.
04-05-2013, 09:53
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim.
Interesting post.
But let us break this down into something more manageable.
On 27th May Anthony is seen, by a reliable witness, with wounds that are not thought to be serious. at a position somewhere along the Lys Canal possibly somewhere between St Venant and St Floris. Awaiting treatment from a German Medical Aid Team. As he was unable to walk at that time this treatment would presumably have required Hospitalisation.
Where ? Would the German aid post have had the facilities to deal with this or would he have been taken to the local hospital. Where, St Venant or Calonne.
Whichever, he was KNOWN, as it would appear that a record must have been started in his name.
On 29th he is Certified Dead. How or why is really not important at the moment. What is important is the fact that whatever this documentation, when it is made available to the British Authorities, it is accepted as proof of Date of Death. Do we know when this amendment was made?
Now, with regard to this documentation. Whilst i obviously do not know what applied in wartime conditions, in normal circumstances the only persons authorised to sign a Death Cert are, a Doctor, a Pathologist or a Coroner. In this case if Anthony was in Hospital then obviously a Doctor would have been available, so a Legal Death Cert could have been issued, which would have been acceptable to our authorities.
I believe you are right, Anthony was never missing, while he was alive.

ivor
04-05-2013, 11:57
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Not sure about France but in the USA. In Texas, for example, a justice of the peace can sign.

It may be that a JP can sign the certificate in France as well, just a thought.

Cheers

Dave

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I have been trying to find the !st Btn Berkshies war diary for the time, i believe i may have found it. What has happened is that for some reason it is not in the search criteria on the Wadrobes site, however on going to the war diaries purchase page there is one advertised as the 1/4th Btn however when you look at the picture it states 1st AND 4th Btn (so far as i am aware the 1/4th Btn only existed during the 1st WW). So i have sent for a copy to see if im correct you never know there just may be some comments that could assist in unraveling this query.

Oh by the way the 1/4th Btn was my Grandfathers unit in WW1 and contains the following :

 1916-06-19

Regiment.
1/4th Royal Berkshire

Location
France, Hebuterne

Entry
Working parties as on the 18th. A and C Companies relieved B and D Coys by 7.0p.m. Divisional Cards were received from the GOC for Distinguished Conduct in the Field on the night of the 15/16th May - names below. Their guns were more active all the day, chiefly 15c.m., and their machine guns hardly stopped firing all night on our front. Weather:- Capt R G Attride 2/Lt H M Wells Lt D J Ward 2/Lt G S Field 2443 Sergt Pitman, C 2171 L/Sergt Page, A 2646 L/C Cooke, W 3051 Pte Drewitt, A J 2834 Pte Shaw, E Remarks Casualties:- 1 Died of wounds, 1 wounded.

1916-08-24

Regiment.
1/4th Royal Berkshire

Location
France, Ovillers

Entry
Companies were practiced in Bomb throwing etc. in the morning. Digging parties of 75 each from B and D Coys were found, leaving at 9.15p.m. for the work in the front line. Owing to the continual shelling all night by the enemy not much work was possible. Weather:- a fine day. Military Medals for immediate awards granted to Corporal RICE: Corporal COOKE: L/Corporal RUSSELL: Private MITCHELL: Private SMITH.

Cheers now

Dave

06-05-2013, 08:20
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I knpow this isnt strictly relevant for which i appologise folks but i have just ordered a book which may have some info "The History of The Royal Berkshire Regiment 1920-1947" by Gordon Blight. It gives an day by day account of the withdrawl of the Berkshire Regiment from La Tombe in Belgium through to Dunkirk and even describes how at St Venant the battalion HQ was attacked on 27th May 1940. you never know we may gain a snippet or two from this.

Cheers

Dave
07-05-2013, 22:58
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Good evening, gents. It's a while since I was on here but I know that Jim has kept you well up to date with what is, or isn't happening. At the moment I am waiting for a development in connection with the MP's investigations. I've had two or three contacts with the CWGC and they say they will be back in touch. I think this is unlikely because my last email to them did not show them in the best light. They told me that there was only one casualty in Saint Venant on the 29th May but we know that there were two, Anthony Corkhill and Syd Walt. I'll wait a while to see if they get back to me before contacting them again. About three or four weeks ago I had the delight and privilege to speak with 100 year old DLI veteran Arthur Willis of Eston, near Middlesbrough. Arthur was amazingly lucid and comprehensible for a man of his age and we talked for a good while. It was an enjoyable experience. Although Arthur had been in the St Venant area at the same time as Anthony, unfortunately the two had never met. Coincidentally, Arthur had done a bit of boxing during his posting to France, as had Anthony. Thanks again to all who have taken the time to read and be involved in this thread. I am still very hopeful for a successful result.
07-05-2013, 23:44
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

In addition to Tonys enquiries I made an approach to the CWGC in relation to the circumstances/place of death of Pte Syd Walt ,a different contact but a `Joe Public` answer..this is what I asked................

Quote:

Could you please let me know if you hold information relating to where Pte Syd Walt of The 2nd Durham Light Infantry died I am aware through eyewitness testimony that he was wounded two days earlier on the 27th May 1940. Do you know where he was when he died on the 29th May 1940.(Hospital etc)I am aware he was wounded near St Venant and rests in the St Venant Communal Cemetery at that location.Thank you for your consideration on this matter

Today the reply was ;-

Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail of 21st March 2013 regarding Private Sydney Walt.<O:P></O:P>
Unfortunatelty I am unable to assist you with your request. This is because the Commission does not hold details regarding the circumstances of death of a casualty. The details we do hold I give below:-<O:P></O:P>
Casualty Details<O:P></O:P>
Rank: Private<O:P></O:P>
Surname: WALT<O:P></O:P>
Forenames: SYDNEY<O:P></O:P>
Service No: 4449017<O:P></O:P>
Age: 26<O:P></O:P>
Unit: 2nd Bn.<O:P></O:P>
Regiment: Durham Light Infantry<O:P></O:P>
Date of Death: 29 May 1940<O:P></O:P>
Additional Information<O:P></O:P>
Son of Thomas William Walt, and of Florence Beatrice Walt, of Hutton Magna, Yorkshire.<O:P></O:P>
Commemoration<O:P></O:P>
ST. VENANT COMMUNAL CEMETERY, Pas de Calais, France, Plot 3. Row A. Grave 20.

I am sorry I have been unable to help yopu with your request.<O:P></O:P>

Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

All of that information is available on the website,they are sticking to the basics whats it going to take to change that ? or do we believe they hold nothing else? If they do`nt who does?
Remember what proof they require in relation to the erection of Headstones,the proof beyond doubt that the graves in question do infact hold the men that are inscribed on that stone then ask yourself based on the information they claim to hold would that be enough to satisfy any of their own criteria?

Best

Jim
08-05-2013, 17:01
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

So once again they insist they have nothing more than what is on the website (and have claimed they didnt know about some of that) strikes me they just are not looking any further than there e-mails. I wonder sometimes is this because they cant be bothered or do they have some information they either dont want to release or are being told not to release. To be honest this stinks of either inefficiency or a cover up for some reason. Of course it could just be plain bone idleness on the part of the clerks answering the E-Mails.
Strikes me this is something for the MP who may just get them to look further than there noses.

Cheers
Dave

PS one of the books (The History of The Royal Berkshire Regiment 1920-1947) has been despatched and so should be here tomorrow or Friday. I dont hold out much hope but maybe there will be something in there we can use.
10-05-2013, 17:05
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ok folks here is the first part of details of the Royal Berks at St Venant, nothing of help to Anthony im afraid but interesting (to me at anyrate).

 MAY 24^th
It was not until the morning of the 24^th that the 1^st battalion clambered once more into buses and sped by way of Genech and Seclin to La Bassee. The road had been bombed, and was congested with traffic and swarms of refugees moving in all directions. After waiting for two hours at La Fosse, north of La Bassee , they were told that the Germans were already near Merville ahead of them, but that they should continue there move, protected by their carrier platoon and seize the bridges over the Aire canal at Guarbecque south west of St Venant .
After passing through Mervill, where the situation was obscure and the confusion considerable the bus column came to a stop and the battalion spent the tail end of the night resting where they were.

May 25^th
In the morning the move was continued by two routes; one direct to Guabecque by way of St Venant, and the other direct to Haverskerque, a village between the Lys and the Foret de Nieppe. The information given to the battalion belittled the likelihood of much organise opposition, in the way that official uncertainty often adopts. It was not long before the southern column directed to St Venant had every reason to distrust it. The bridge over the Lys had been partially destroyed, and its defenders lay dead by the roadside. Hasty repairs enabled the troops to pass over. Soon after German artillery opened a heavy fire and several casualties at once ensued among whom Captain E.S Hall was killed. As the companies advanced towards Guarbeque heavy machine gun fire directed from a factory south of the Aire canal prevented further lateral movement without the weight and range that could only come from artillery support. This was not available. By nightfall the battalion held forward of the long bend of the Lys canal between St Venant and the Forest, with battalion headquarters in Bas Hamel and C Company in reserve behind Haverskerque. On the right was a week pioneer battalion and on the left the 2^nd Durham Light Infantry.

i will try to do some more over the weekend if people are interested.

Commanding officer Lieutenant Colonel M.C Dempsey MC later General Sir M.C Dempsey K.C.B, K.B.E, D.S.O, M.C, A.D.C

Cheers

Dave
11-05-2013, 07:26
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 May 26^th
The battalion remained in the same position the next day, undisturbed except by shelling and suffering some casualties in the process, among whom were Lt L.J.L Hill and Captain C.N. B Dawson both wounded. Although the latter officer could no longer walk he insisted on remaining at his post being one of the few officers left. Platoon Sergeant Major Harvey now became commander of D company. (The rank held was introduced shortly before the war with the object of securing young, tactically trained leaders to meet the shortage of junior officers. These warrant officers Class III of the battalion amply justified there selection but the experiment ceased in the Army in 1943- with the retention of rank only by those men holding it.)
In contrast to the comparative peace of Sunday -not to be confused with the sabbatical calm at home- the night that followed was full of incident. Parties of enemy had crossed the Lys with roving tanks sometime previously; they now began to interfere in the rear area of the battalion, blocking the road back to Haverskerque. Sgt T. Williams was sent with the carrier platoon to tidy up the position. They soon came into contact with enemy armour and in the fight that followed several carriers were destroyed. The road was never the less secured.
11-05-2013, 10:37
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Heres the last part folks all its done is show the situation from the point of view of the third battalion in the brigade unfortunatlely.

Hope you find it interesting though.

 May 27^th
On the following morning the tension increased and enemy attacks became general everywhere. Battalion Headquarters itself was attacked at dawn and in the dog-fight that followed clerks, orderlies and batmen became closely engaged. The second in command Major H. Rew organised a successful counter attack and restored the situation with the same tolerant nonchalance that attends manoeuvres when the august of a unit suffer indignities at the hands of an enterprising but slightly too exuberant an enemy. The enemy attack finally subsided with the arrival of the reserve company. A discreet battalion withdrawal under heavy fire followed.

The battalion next halted on a position east of Haverskerque behind the Lys canal where it covered the withdrawal of the brigade transport into the forest. As they turned to go two particularly large enemy tanks appeared and opened machine gun fire at the scattered parties of men- they were now about a company strong crossing an open stretch of ground before reaching the leafy embrasures of the forest. Astonishingly few casualties were sustained but everyone there had reason to congratulate themselves that these tanks were handled with considerable discretion otherwise the encounter was likely to have had a different outcome. After emerging from the protecting trees they were again met by fire and luckily again it had little effect but the situation was rapidly becoming very unpleasant. The battalion moved on under orders for Cuadesqure two miles away where they became concentrated within the brigade and spent an uneventful night. There total strength then was twelve officers, 200 men and six serviceable Bren guns.

May 28^th
That morning the 1^st battalion marched away from the trampled banks of the Lys the torn woods and the harbouring village of Caudesqure.
11-05-2013, 17:23
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

"I have been trying to find the !st Btn Berkshies war diary for the time, i believe i may have found it. What has happened is that for some reason it is not in the search criteria on the Wadrobes site, however on going to the war diaries purchase page there is one advertised as the 1/4th Btn however when you look at the picture it states 1st AND 4th Btn".

I was quite correct in this because i recceived the book today and it covers the war diary from 22nd August 1939 to 29th April 1940 and a summary of events from 10th May 1940 to 30th June 1940. Much is the same as in the other book however there is a little more info not in that one nothing to help us with Anthony sadly so sorry folks i guess i didnt really expect there to be anything.

Cheers

Dave
11-05-2013, 22:00
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Dave, thank you for your effort. Like you say, it is maybe not relevant to the case of Anthony but interesting all the same. I am always pleased to read anything that concerns Saint Venant. It is only by investigating as much as possible about the events of May 1940 that one day, a breakthrough will be staring us in the face. I never get tired of saying thank you to anyone who is good enough to spend any effort towards bringing a successful conclusion to the mystery of my uncle's disappearance. Thanks again. Tony
12-05-2013, 05:18
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Tony, thanks for that, always nice to be appreciated.
As soon as i can i will post the aditional information from the war diary that is not in the other book.

Cheers

Dave
12-05-2013, 12:14
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

He He He just spoke to dad and he wants me to research a Major REW who was O/C of A company (dads company) believe it or not he only had one arm yet was a champion pistol shot !!!!!, im hoping to speak face to face in a couple of days so i may get some more snippets. Dad believes he ended up a Brigadier.

Dave
12-05-2013, 14:01
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

dave.
the following may be of some help, if you dont already know of it.

http://www.unithistories.com/officers/Army_officers_W02.html

ivor
12-05-2013, 14:31
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Thanks Ivor i shall get down to researching the name for him as soon as i can.
13-05-2013, 18:15
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Folks, here is a few additions from the war diary that either are not in the other books account or differ from that account.

May 25^th
The information given to the battalion about the Germans suggested that they were only parachute troops and motor cycle troops and the battalion was really engaged on a mopping up operation that should not prove difficult.
There was one 25mm anti tank gun in support of C Company to the north of Haverskerque and to the right in the Foret De Nieppe was a weak pioneer battalion of the York’s and Lancs.

26^th May
A quiet day with little shelling. Our own artillery could do little in reply as their CP,s were unable to get through by WT.

27^th May
Battalion HQ attacked at dawn from the left flank, Brigade Commander ordered C company forward to make a bridgehead at the Haverskerque footbridge make touch with battalion HQ and give the battalion O/C verbal orders to withdraw over the canal. The attack subsided with the arrival of C company and withdrawal began with the aid of two machine guns from the Masnchesters, C company covered the withdrawal and was then withdrawn in turn.

That’s about it folks. Except for a map of the route took through the area between 24^th and 28^th May.

Cheers

Dave
13-05-2013, 22:25
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdl12976

He He He just spoke to dad and he wants me to research a Major REW who was O/C of A company (dads company) believe it or not he only had one arm yet was a champion pistol shot !!!!!, im hoping to speak face to face in a couple of days so i may get some more snippets. Dad believes he ended up a Brigadier.

Dave

Hello Dave,
Thank you very much for posting the information it is of interest and helps set the scene remembering there were three battalions plus support troops helps too at St Venant. In regard to your enquiry re Major Rew heres a couple of snippets hope they help Major Horace Edward Rew, The Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of
Wales's) was awarded a DSO for operations with the BEF in 1940 London Gazette Issue 34893 published on the 9 July 1940THE LONDON GAZETTE, 1 FEBRUARY, 1929 publishes an announcement that Flying Officer Horace Edward REW (Lt.,

R. Berks Regt.) relinquishes his temporary commission on return to his Army duty dated 27th Jan. 1929
The London Gazette dated 11th September 1918 gives the appointment of the following Lieutenants into the
R. Berks. R.
—Frederick William Paines.
Horace Edward Rew.
Ivor Thomas Clement.
Herbert Walter Gabbett Arthy.
His DSO citation is at the National Archives Ref WO 373/15/84,he served in India in 1932 so will be on the medal roll for the India General Service Medal as well.

Jim
14-05-2013, 05:51
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Thanks a lot JIm, i havent got round to checking the Major out yet because im busy with another enquiry with reference to my grandfather in WW2.

Cheers

Dave
14-05-2013, 07:36
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 A little strange some of the movements of the battalion on the 24^th May “After 2 hours at La Posse information was received that the enemy was in the vicinity of Merville and the battalion was ordered to move by MT with carrier protection and seize the bridges over the Lys (AIRE ?) Canal in the neibourhood of Guarbeque. The move was carried out as far as the other side of Merville whence the advance guard of carriers was held up and the battalion spent the night”

A couple of questions here.
1. Why did the battalion move NNW to Merville from La Fosse instead of moving almost directly West to Guarbeque past Robecq?. The war diary states there were only three maps available for the area at the time. Have a look at the map and you will see what I mean. Surely logic would have said keep south of the Lys to move to Guarbeque. Mind we do know the brigadier had ordered the brigade south of the Lys when they should have stayed to the north so maybe the Berks were just obeying the proper order and ignoring Furlongs later order.
Guarbeque is on the South of the AIRE canal NOT the Lys, wrongly transcribed I think because the other book places the town correctly south of the Aire canal.
2. Obviously dad is a day out with his incident since the Battalion spent the night at Merville and did not cross the bridge at St Venant to move on to Bas Hamel until after midday on the 25^th May. This seems confirmed in the book History of the Royal Berkshire Regiment 1920 to 1947 wherein the role of honour states “ 5127016 Lance Corporal Joynson P. 25^th May 1940”.
This once again shows just how little faith we can place in the dates from the CWGC, I can understand dad being a day out since he is 95 and memory of over 70 years ago will be a little hazy.

Cheers

Dave
14-05-2013, 21:24
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi Dave,
I believe Robecq was in German hands at that time (unsure) The Royal Berks entered the town over the wooden bridge over the LYS .Advancing from Merville where they had been given the task of holding the GUARBECQUE bridge.They reached the HURTEVENT Road initialy protected by the trees once they broke cover they were heavily engaged by German artillery on the other side of LE BASSEE CANAL They suffered a large number of dead and wounded Capt Hall tried to take cover at Ferme LEPOIVRE but was killed whilst doing so .The flat terrain offered no cover the orders were to continue yet German machine guns at the ISBERGUES FACTORY would cut them to pieces.They stayed put pinned down between the Canal de la LYS and the GUARBECQUE river hoping for artillery support. (Source M.Faivre)

Isnt it strange how when you are desperate to find a little snippet of information relating to a particular subject, in this case Anthony Corkhill, you find yourself more than a little distracted by something of great importance but not at all directly relevent to the search .Both John and myself have each found references to other `missing soldiers` commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial being at St Venant tonight I think I have found another this time a comrade of Anthony 4452575 Pte Charles Richard Minns Son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Henry Minns, of Walker Gate, Newcastle-upon-Tyne in a testimony from DLI Sgt James Wray held at the IWM there is a reference to Sgt Wrays wounding at St Venant as he recalls Pte Hurst dressing his wounds and the Sergeant Major coming up to see what shape the platoon were in he says "..in the meantime Menns had been killed" .(there is no MENNS but there is a Minns So perhaps MINNS is at ST VENANT too but like Anthony commemorated on the DUNKIRK MEMORIAL...

Best

Jim
15-05-2013, 07:16
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi Jim, well what you have both found does prove that there are others besides Anthony Corkhill "missing" from the official records. I guess given the confused situation at the time in the area we should not be surprised at this, it is likely that men from the other two Battalions are in this situation as well.
Im sure if we keep digging a breakthrough will be made.

Cheers

Dave
29-05-2013, 15:19
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Dedicated to the memory of Pte Anthony Corkhill
2nd Battalion The Durham Light Infantry
Died 29th May 1940 St Venant

73 years to the day.
Years have past but here you are never forgotten

Best

Jim
29-05-2013, 16:51
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Nice one Jim and i concur with the sentiment totaly.

Dave
29-05-2013, 22:19
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim, thank you for your kind sentiments which have added a bit of depth to my day. This morning I had a run through to Durham Cathedral to visit the Durham Light Infantry Chapel and see Anthony's name in the Book of Remembrance. It is rewarding just to have a quiet moment in the little chapel which sits nicely within the imposing Cathedral. Tony

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verrieres

Dedicated to the memory of Pte Anthony Corkhill
2nd Battalion The Durham Light Infantry
Died 29th May 1940 St Venant

73 years to the day.
Years have past but here you are never forgotten

Best

Jim
01-06-2013, 18:54
roy dadge

1 Attachment(s)

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I am not sure if I am too late but I visited the site of the battle that took place on the morning of the 28th May 1940 in 2007. My father who was in Platoon 18 "D" Company RWF and was fortunate in that he escaped that morning. I cannot confirm the name of the farm but I did take a photograph looking towards the RWF headquarters from the bridge(which I have included below) and one from the RWF headquarters to the bridge. I remember that the DLI Headquarters was about two hundred yards futher along the canal from the RWF Headquarters and indeed in 2007 there was a large building there that could of been a barn. If you were to visit St Venant, stand on the bridge, then walk along the towpath as shown in the photo and when you reach the cemetary the DLI Headquarters will be found, from memory, between the cemetary and the canal.

Taken from the war Diaries of the RWF

"The Canal Bank position was held at this time by theHeadquarters of the R.W.F. and of the D.L.I., together with what remained oftheir respective H.Q. Companies. There was also a M.G. Platoon of theManchester’s in the vicinity. The Battalion had the A.A. L.M.Gs. in a copse tothe West of the cemetery. Outside the cemetery on the South, West, and Eastsides were roughly dug trenches containing some dozen men apiece. On the roadthat ran between the North, or rear end of the cemetery and the canal wasBattalion Headquarters itself, consisting of about four officers and somesignallers, and clerks. Some 150 yards along the road, to the East, the D.L.I.H.Q. occupied a farm along the canal bank. Their dispositions are not known indetail. On either side of the position, from the canal bridge on the right andthe farm on the left, the canal bent slightly towards the rear, a factor thatwas to have an effect on the fighting."

I have uploaded a photograph marking the positions of the headquarters of both regiments. Looking from the bridge they are both on the right with the RWF the closer of the two. I hope this helps.

Roy
01-06-2013, 20:03
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Roy, any other slant or opinion on this thread may help to piece things togeather mate.

Cheers

Dave
02-06-2013, 12:24
roy dadge

1 Attachment(s)

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdl12976

Roy, any other slant or opinion on this thread may help to piece things togeather mate.

Cheers

Dave

Hi,

Attached is a map of St Venant which provides the positions of the various units that I put together in 2007. I hope it helps.
02-06-2013, 12:31
dcdl12976

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Roy we have i think had a similar map on here some time back, but nice anyway, dont forget there was a third battalion in the area 1st Royal Berks which is my particular interest because dad was in it. If you check back through the thread you will find his story.

Cheers

Dave
22-06-2013, 20:39
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello,
It has gone rather quiet on the Anthony Corkhill search I`m not sure if Tony has any updates but until he comes along heres a bit of related information.a while ago someone sold copies of three photographs from St Venant on a well known postcard selling site in France. (Theres still copies there!) It was hinted that two of the photographs showed a massacre site when it was in fact the mass grave referred to earlier and which the CWGC denied all knowledge of despite it being on their website at the time????? If it was a massacre we do not know at least in the sense of a war crime that is.
As one of the lines of enquiry we obtained a list of the unfortunate souls exhumed from this grave.We identified , matched ,cross matched these lists finding a few surprises along the way but...something I missed along the way... the dates of death given for those buried there.
We have seen how unreliable the CWGC dates are for this period however in this grave we have 7 DLI with dates of death between 28th May 1940 and (various). The 28th May 1940 one day after the battle ,one day before the death of Anthony Corkhill. We have always argued that based on their own criteria the CWGC hold or had been supplied with an eye witness report which saw Anthony,certainly alive after RSM Goddards meeting with him on the 27th May,and possibly his death on the 29th May 1940. So I ask who or what document relates to the last sighting of these 7 DLI and the rest of the men in that grave? The various end dates are the dates a body was found not buried hence a soldier listed as died between 28th May 1940 and 1st June 1940 had documented evidence of being alive on the 28th May 1940,he could have died on this date or any other date up until June 1st but he was last seen alive on the 28th (had to be).
One day after the battle ended there is a record of these men alive,just like there is a record of Anthony Corkhill being alive on the 29th May. Is this document one and the same as the one we seek? If theres no document filed under `Corkhill` could it be filed elsewhere under one of the other mens names?
In relation to Tonys last update relating to the unknown next to Syd Walt being a Corporal? Lance Corporal/ Unpaid Lance Corporal? Promoted in the field? If the war diary did`nt survive I doubt field promotions would either there would be no record of it on his service record for May? Perhaps we should`nt discount anything ?

Best

Jim

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Regiment.	1/4th Royal Berkshire
Location	France, Hebuterne
Entry	Working parties as on the 18th. A and C Companies relieved B and D Coys by 7.0p.m. Divisional Cards were received from the GOC for Distinguished Conduct in the Field on the night of the 15/16th May - names below. Their guns were more active all the day, chiefly 15c.m., and their machine guns hardly stopped firing all night on our front. Weather:- Capt R G Attride 2/Lt H M Wells Lt D J Ward 2/Lt G S Field 2443 Sergt Pitman, C 2171 L/Sergt Page, A 2646 L/C Cooke, W 3051 Pte Drewitt, A J 2834 Pte Shaw, E Remarks Casualties:- 1 Died of wounds, 1 wounded.