saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Good Morning.
Thanks for the info guys
Dave. whilst i do not doubt you, i find you quote below remarkable.

" Simlpy put no because the only real difference would be the regimental cap badge and given the pride most soldiers have in there badged regiment changing cap badges without being officially sanctioned ordered and officialy transfered would be highly unlikely (and against Army Regs anyway). It is possible i suppose but highly unlikely. ''

Does this mean therefore, that any man who lost his cap, and in the circumstances we are dealing with would seem to me to be very, very possible. If severely wounded it would not be possible to ID him to his unit. I thought that a unit name tag was sewn on the shoulder of the Battledress tunics. which is why i asked the question, Cap Badges never occurred to me.

Jim. The knowledge that the army knew as early as June 40 possibly isn't that surprising. It was known that the Hospital was in the area. It is known that British troops were still fighting in the area some time later, so the info that it had moved on 29th could easily have got back. Even the '' On or Since 29/5/40 '' makes sense. It is likely that the British would not have known exactly what happened to the wounded there. and certainly i doubt they would have known, at that time, of the possibility of murders there.
But these ' missing ' dates are puzzling me. As i said before Where were they on 10th and was there anything of significance known to have occurred on or just before that date. anything which may account for Anthony's apparent 'disappearance' until seen by Goddard on 27th. this seems odd.Was there anyone else shown missing between these dates ?


ivor

Ivor you may be right but Dad said he never wore shoulder titles (of course at 95 he may misremember) however he also said he wore the 2nd division shoulder flash (crossed keys). As you say if a soldier lost his cap he may well have found a replacement from somwhere and if he had no tags (as Anthony ) thus been put down as a wrong unit. I suspect you are correct and most would have shoulder titles and thus be identified from them in which case we run into a whole new can of worms.

Cheers

Dave

Hi All.

Of Course SOMETHING Happened on 10 May 1940. The German's invaded, (I have deleted the next couple of lines as they were not suitable for persons of a nervous disposition or for family viewing.) Of Course The Bl**** Germans Invaded. something of a SLIGHT significance.
But this could explain something else.
Prior to the 10th was it not the practice for troops due R&R to be returned to UK for leave. so on 10th ALL BEF men on leave would have been given an IMMEDIATE recall. So could Anthony have been on leave in UK and in the rush to get back is this when he left his 'Dog Tags ' behind, and when they got back to France it took quite some time for them to find their units.
I can well imagine quite a lot of men were Missing at that time, somewhere in France trying to find their units.


Ivor.

A damded good thought Ivor however i would think it unlikely that many would be granted leave when an attack was thought possible at any time (i am probobly wrong on that) but it is a distinct possibility.

Ref the shoulder titles, a little research reveals that until just after Dunkirk shoulder titles were metal pin on type and thus easily removed and looking at lots of photos from the time in France there are few that show them in use. Bearing in mind the poor photos and the fact that brownish metal titles would not show up very well on kharki i believe my Dad may be correct. Bearing in mind the standard pow orders of name rank and number only to be given to the enemy why have shoulder tities that gave away the regiment (even though the cap badge did). One of the weird and silly things of the time i suppose.

A little research may reveal an order to remove them on a war footing when serving in France at this time.

Cheers Ivor

Dave

Hi,
Just a couple of points battledress at this time May 1940 had no insignia, no shoulder titles metal of cloth versions no crossed keys nothing except rank badges some formations adopted unofficial versions but not the 2nd DLI.Captain Annands batledress is at the DLI museum its blank apart from his pips.
It was after the BEF action that the various shoulder titles and unit insignia started to be worn again.Pre war the brass shoulder title was worn on service dress but not in France 1940.
Ivor there were many DLI `missing` from 10th May 1940 onwards but Anthony was not one of them ,he simply had not drew any pay (like the majority of 2 DLI) Anthony Corkhill only became a concern after RSM Goddard saw him on the 27th May 1940. The fact that we are unable to establish which Company he was with is common with no surviving Company lists and in the most of the cases I have encountered all references to a mans Company are based on the Company Roll on deployment in France. Hope this clears up a few things. The only item other than a dog tag which a soldier always carried was his AB64.

Best

Jim

Just a small edit Anthony was not on leave he returned in April 1940. Those on leave at the time of the German advance(DLI,RWF,R.Berks,RA etc) were formed into a composite battalion,not to far away but not near the fighting at St Venant.Dave the thing about divisional signs and shoulder titles were ordered to be removed but any man could be identified by his paybook which contained a soldiers army number which pre war and in the first year or two were issued in regimental blocks which the Germans would have been aware of anyway.

Thanks for that Jim it confirms what i thought about the titles, thonugh dad says he wore the 2 div patch however i have his from that time and it has popper things on it which suggests it was easily removable from before deployment to France.

I hadnt though about the AB 64 that suggests that Anthony was not in possestion of his when he was captured/died otherwise there would be some record somewhere he was in possestion of the AB64 when he was buried surely that info would have been enough to put on his grave.

Dave

Hi
Ok, so things get more complicated. so not only does Anthony apparently leave his 'Dog Tags ' in the UK it might seem to appear he left his pay book there as well.
Right, Jim, are you saying that just because Anthony did not draw his pay he would have been recorded as ' missing '. What was the Pay procedure prior to the 10th a pay parade ?. i would have thought that from the 10th a formal parade would have been almost impossible.

ivor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vori101

Hi
Ok, so things get more complicated. so not only does Anthony apparently leave his 'Dog Tags ' in the UK it might seem to appear he left his pay book there as well.
Right, Jim, are you saying that just because Anthony did not draw his pay he would have been recorded as ' missing '. What was the Pay procedure prior to the 10th a pay parade ?. i would have thought that from the 10th a formal parade would have been almost impossible.

ivor

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Hello Ivor,
No I`m saying he was never posted as missing until the 14th June 1940 and then only briefly.He was confirmed as `DEAD` Q80 on the Roll he was never treated as a missing soldier no enquiries were ever (as far as can be ascertained) carried out into his wearabouts.No searcher parties no correspondence to those he served with, to the War Office he was `DEAD`.This is the inconsistancy in the whole search and which has led us to believe something further was filed/reported in regards to his death. Anthony has no known grave his AB64 could have been taken from him along with piles of other AB64s (or it could be still with him).The Mayor stated at the time soldiers personal effects which were recovered from the dead were despatched to the relevent authorities..whoever they were.
Best

Jim

Afternoon,

I have heard from Tony, last night he received an email from the MoD as expected not very encouraging..a little explaination in what they normally do in these cases ...I say normally because apparently due to a lack of staff they will not even be looking into this !...Sorry thats it for now too angry to comment further at this time.Just to keep you all up to speed really.
Best

Jim

So not helpfull at all Jim but thanks for letting us know mate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

So not helpfull at all Jim but thanks for letting us know mate.

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Hello Dave,
Blood pressure is returning to normal now! No not very helpful at all,I expected an initial knockback but the reasoning behind it simply blew me away! Anyhow we factored in this type of response thats why everything was copied and sent off to Tonys MP its time to put a little pressure that way I think?
I may be reading too much into this but Tonys mail from the MoD set out the `normal` procedure ie they contact the CWGC who forward their documents to the Casualty people who compile the case as requested. Now we have already contacted the CWGC and they stated they hold no records of their own on Anthony and referred us to the JCCC, The CWGC stated the Dates of Death were supplied by the relevent service authority at the time. I natually assumed that the CWGC held nothing and the MoD had the relevent records ..what if I`ve read this wrong?
Could they(CWGC) mean, bearing in mind the MoD `normal` procedure, that they have records but they hold those that belong to the MoD and thus cannot release them without the MoD approval hence the `Normal` procedure? I`m clutching at straws but is it a possibility?
Meanwhile Newspaper contact is moving rapidly along and we have other courses/paths to travel we will keep chipping away Anthony has waited 73 years I am afraid he may have to wait just a little while longer but we are coming for you son! Your Country may have forgotten but we have not.Chin up Tony onward and upwards mate!

Best

Jim

Jim you may be correct but so far as i am aware MOD records remain MOD records and only a copy with as much info as required would have been supplied to anyone else, remember the MOD like any government department will only answer exactly what they were asked and no more i.e. they will not volunteer info over and above the question asked (if they answer at all as you have found). I find the excuse they are short staffed very strange, they are but not to that extent i believe.
A point to bear in mind is that so far as i am aware many MOD records are now held and administered by a private firm, certainly civil servants records so i suspect some military records may also be held thus. Also bear in mind that normaly the MOD will only release service info etc to a direct relation and they may not consider Tony to be so. Dont forget also that some records have a 75 year statute before they can be released, am not suggesting this as a reason but it is worth bearing in mind.

There is of course other possibilities why they will not check and i am beginning to think Ivor and my thoughts on this may be nearer to the truth than we realise (not for the forum of course especially since i work for the MOD in a lowly capacity).

My feelings on this is that the thing stinks, and i would hazard a guess that the 75 year rule is being applied for some reason as yet unknown.

Sorry if that sounds negative but for what its worth it is my feeling and opinion mate.

Cheers
Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

Jim you may be correct but so far as i am aware MOD records remain MOD records and only a copy with as much info as required would have been supplied to anyone else, remember the MOD like any government department will only answer exactly what they were asked and no more i.e. they will not volunteer info over and above the question asked (if they answer at all as you have found). I find the excuse they are short staffed very strange, they are but not to that extent i believe.
A point to bear in mind is that so far as i am aware many MOD records are now held and administered by a private firm, certainly civil servants records so i suspect some military records may also be held thus. Also bear in mind that normaly the MOD will only release service info etc to a direct relation and they may not consider Tony to be so. Dont forget also that some records have a 75 year statute before they can be released, am not suggesting this as a reason but it is worth bearing in mind.

There is of course other possibilities why they will not check and i am beginning to think Ivor and my thoughts on this may be nearer to the truth than we realise (not for the forum of course especially since i work for the MOD in a lowly capacity).

My feelings on this is that the thing stinks, and i would hazard a guess that the 75 year rule is being applied for some reason as yet unknown.

Sorry if that sounds negative but for what its worth it is my feeling and opinion mate.

Cheers
Dave

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Hello Dave,

Something is amiss with this, one question throws up another the deeper you go.Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why such an important battle which basically saw three top infantry regiments decimated has never been covered in detail.The 2 DLI diary,at least,records that the full story of what happened to the rifle companies will not be told until they return from captivity..which to the best of my knowledge never was?
In respect of the MoD`s records remaining their property yes I`d agree with that but they do not always retain the originals when I applied for my uncles records he too was killed with the DLI I received a very apologetic letter with three photocopied sheets and an explaination that my uncles records had been sent on loan to what is now the Veterans agency and were believed subsequently destroyed! I disputed the fact that they would have destroyed them and asked that further enquiries be made into their wearabouts.Two months later I received a second letter again apologising the records had been returned and copies were enclosed in full...what would have happened if I had not pursued them?.....Nothing I suspect.
In respect of the MoDs excuse they state they have only two staff on Historic identifications and these were `busy` with casualties of both Wars who turn up in France the rest assist with Afghanistan...the too hard box springs to mind!

Best Wishes

Jim

I am not sure if you have seen this web site but just in case it may throu some light on anything you are researching I have copied the link for you, if you have already seen it then nothing lost www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Verrieres

Hello Dave
Something is amiss with this, one question throws up another the deeper you go.Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why such an important battle which basically saw three top infantry regiments decimated has never been covered in detail.The 2 DLI diary,at least,records that the full story of what happened to the rifle companies will not be told until they return from captivity..which to the best of my knowledge never was?
In respect of the MoD`s records remaining their property yes I`d agree with that but they do not always retain the originals when I applied for my uncles records he too was killed with the DLI I received a very apologetic letter with three photocopied sheets and an explaination that my uncles records had been sent on loan to what is now the Veterans agency and were believed subsequently destroyed! I disputed the fact that they would have destroyed them and asked that further enquiries be made into their wearabouts.Two months later I received a second letter again apologising the records had been returned and copies were enclosed in full...what would have happened if I had not pursued them?.....Nothing I suspect.
In respect of the MoDs excuse they state they have only two staff on Historic identifications and these were `busy` with casualties of both Wars who turn up in France the rest assist with Afghanistan...the too hard box springs to mind!

Best Wishes

Jim

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Verrieres

Hello Dave,

Something is amiss with this, one question throws up another the deeper you go.Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why such an important battle which basically saw three top infantry regiments decimated has never been covered in detail.The 2 DLI diary,at least,records that the full story of what happened to the rifle companies will not be told until they return from captivity..which to the best of my knowledge never was?

Jim

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I do agree Jim, have you thought that so far as i can find no war diary from the 1st Royal Berks at this time is to be found anywhere ? possibly these were lost/destoyed etc at the time but there may be other reasons as well. its just possible that my father may well hold some clues but at 95 i doubt he may remember (or may not say) there is a point to me saying this but its not for forum view mate. Sorry.
Agreed yo uneed to keep pushing at the MOD and you may eventually get a result. No excuse to say they are tied up wth Afganistan this is NOT a historic war it is indeed still going on as we are all aware,u are i think correct in sayiny "to hard" i would rather say "cant be bothered" cos there is talking and reading papers to do. However maybe i am being a litle hard on a department that is being cut in numbers of staff daily.

Cheers

Dave

Thanks bennyball2 we did i think know about this link but it never hurts to be reminded mate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

I do agree Jim, have you thought that so far as i can find no war diary from the 1st Royal Berks at this time is to be found anywhere ? possibly these were lost/destoyed etc at the time but there may be other reasons as well. its just possible that my father may well hold some clues but at 95 i doubt he may remember (or may not say) there is a point to me saying this but its not for forum view mate. Sorry.
Agreed yo uneed to keep pushing at the MOD and you may eventually get a result. No excuse to say they are tied up wth Afganistan this is NOT a historic war it is indeed still going on as we are all aware,u are i think correct in sayiny "to hard" i would rather say "cant be bothered" cos there is talking and reading papers to do. However maybe i am being a litle hard on a department that is being cut in numbers of staff daily.

Cheers

Dave

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Hello Dave,
The Royal Berks Diary has always been a mystery to me the 2DLI are reconstituted they are not original so why not reconstitute the Royal Berks? or would that be forgery as the originals still exist ....in the same box as Q80 possibly:winkicon:

Best

Jim

Good Morning.
Well guys , you probably now realise that we are into something not quite what we expected. Welcome to St Vennant
In ‘’Ye Olden Days ‘’ a map would have shown the area as ‘’Do Not Enter. There Be DRAGONS Here’.I am very,very reluctant to enter there, as I believe I know who the Dragons are.
You have found that by looking at the War Diaries of the 3 units involved, that they are either wrong, RWF Dates, missing, rewritten. 2DLI or just plain missing. 1RB.
This would not have surfaced otherwise.
There are several known incident of FF.. I believe that the deaths of Lt Garnett of the RWF and 6 others ,Grave markers 23/5/40, RWF WD 24/5/40 . were a result of the advancing RWF coming under fire from a Co of 2/5 WY who had been tasked with the defence of St Floris to hold against the Known German advance into St Vennant. On 23^rd.
The account from Mr Cook Snr of the arty fire and the comments of the FOO that they believed that the Gremans held the position, would seem to indicate that British troops were not known to be further west than St Floris.which appears to have been the British Holding Position.
So why were they there ?
Another very strange thing occurs to Mr Cook Snr. On his return to UK he is Hospitalised and he arranges to speak to the parents of his friend who was killed in the FF incident. When he is released from Hospital he is not posted back to his regiment, he is posted, without any prior notification, for Parachute training to become an Air Gunner. I am not sure if you are aware but the life expectancy of an AG was measured in Days/weeks not months. Very Odd. But fortunately he survived and he has my total respect.
I might be a cynical old sod but it might seem that Mr Cook may have been deliberately put in Harms Way.
With regard to the reasons why British troop were in St Vennant. When it was known that the German’s were there on 23^rd and the British were holding at St Floris.I will not comment. I have my own opinion regarding this but that is how it will stay.
In conclusion I will just say that yes I believe that there is something very odd here and I do not believe that we are going to get any further with this, unless we are able to find someone outside this forum with a Lot of Seniority and Authority..


Ivor

Thanks to Ivor for his post, i am of the opinion that i have to be pretty carefull what i say on the open forum still working for the MOD and all. One point mate if dads memory is right and the incident took place on the 24th then since he said he was very close to the footbridge to Haversque then the Royal Berks were even further out of the area they should have been in than we thought.

Perhaps a reminder of Dads mate,s Mother and Father might be in order here his Father being an ex Brigadier and officially a "Gentleman" and the family lived in Warwick where Dad was in hospital.

At some time i seem to remember Dad telling me that after his parachute training he was sent to a "Large house in the country" cant remember which county though for further training. As well as being a mid upper gunner on Sunderlands he was gunner in Bolton and Paul Defiants and flew in and out of Malta several times (quite what he was up to i may never know). i do know that at some point he was wounded in the wrist and still has a fixed wrist to this day. One thing i vividly remember when i was very young was a gang of younsters giving him grief and if i remember right he put several down in short time.

His medals are Africa Star with 1st Army clasp, 1939/45 Star Italy star And Atlantic star plus the usual 2 others so that gives us a clue that what he says is fairly accurate. One thing eludes me though what was a soldier doing as mid upper gunner on Sunderlands over the Atlantic.

I have long thought it strange that this battle has so little info on the net or elsewhere not to mention the various anomolies in the War Diaries including the s missing one, by the way i never did have a reply from the Wardrobe to my question about the diary and the battle.

Anyway enough for now this isnt helping to find Anthony.

Cheers

Dave

hi.
Dave, i agree with your being careful. but you may have found one of the Dragons. I believe another was a sometime High Sheriff of an Irish County.
Thanks again to your Dad.
Now, as to this not helping to find Anthony, well, maybe,you are aware that i still believe that Anthony will be found at Calonne. But if i am wrong and Anthony is in St Vennant, then we will have to come up with something very dramatic in order to blow this whole thing open. But if possible, we have to beware that we do not open a very,very large can of worms in doing so.



ivor

Thanks Ivor yes i think i have the one dragon but as to the other i dont have a clue im afraid obviously you have checked (or found) something i havent. Sadly i believe this could well go to very close to the top of the powers that be, military,Goverment, MOD and maybe even "another place" as the saying goes. If that is so then i feel we will not get anywhere (i hope im wrong on this) if we are correct then the can of worms contains very large,rich and powerfull worms.

Hope im wrong mate.

Cheers
Dave

Hello,
I will make this brief for Tony deserves all the credit and I want him to come here and tell you all what he has accomplished today. I will tell you this he has fought his corner well with both the MoD and CWGC today. Come on Tony credit where due mate after the consessions you got today you need to be justly proud.Well done.

Post away mate

Best

Jim

Jim, Tony i am looking forward to some good news on this for a change. Fingers crossed

Hello All,

Sorry for the delay in replying but I've had 'one of those days'. My description of the good news that Jim writes about is more like the 'promise of good news to come' or perhaps the launching pad for a major development. What happened was this;- I wrote off to the MoDs JCCC a week or two ago and a few days ago received an email telling me that there was nothing they could do because of 'staff shortages'. I rang the office and spoke to the very charming lady who had sent me the email. I pointed out that this was not an ordinary historical search of the kind that were being put into cold storage because of lack of staff. I managed to get the message across that if the War Office at the time knew enough about Anthony being dead to amend his 'missing' status to that of 'dead' and remove him from the Army payroll, there must have been some documentary evidence to support this and the record could still exist today.

After a lengthy and promising talk I was given the number of a person at the CWGC who had already been approached by JCCC to ask if he had anything to add to what I had already told them in my introductory letter. I rang the gentleman and after the initial 'things are not looking so good on this number' he turned out to be quite keen to help. We discussed the fact that, as far as we know, there were only two casualties on the 29th May, Anthony (without identification) and Syd Walt (indentified).

It seems that Syd is buried in Saint Venant Communal Cemetery. He has a headstone marking the spot where he is buried. Next to him is an unknown. We are aware that we will probably never find out the name of that unknown but I have asked the CWGC if they could find out WHEN HE DIED. I know it's perhaps schoolboy logic but if that unknown was killed on the 29th May, then there must be a chance that he is in fact, Anthony. I realise of course that Anthony and Syd may have been a few miles apart when they died and this could have led to them being buried in different locations but if they were near enough to have been both put into the same ambulance or other means of transport, it would have made sense to bury one next to the other.

To cut a long story short, I have a promise from the CWGC that they will investigate this fully and pass their report on to JCCC who will let me know the result of their findings. The person I spoke to reinforced my belief that the CWGC deal with 'after death' cases and therefore they have an interest in this case. I suspect that if they find that the person buried next to Syd was not killed on the 29th, they now have a reason to make further enquiries to find out where that person was buried. I got the feeling that the person I spoke to was already in possession of some knowledge of the connection between the casualties of the 29th May and he talked freely about the chance of them being buried next door to each other.

About three months ago, I rang the CWGC and was told very nicely that there was nothing they could do. Perhaps because I was a bit more forceful this time or because I got to speak with a more understanding contact I now get the feeling that something is getting done. Maybe this will all collapse like all the leads we've had up to now but I am, without doubt, more hopeful than I have been for quite a while. Other subjects that came into the conversation were the Missing Men files that surprisingly do not contain the name of Anthony Corkhill. I asked about the Q forms but neither the CWGC or JCCC seemed to know anything about them.

Regards

Tony

Quote:

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I realise of course that Anthony and Syd may have been a few miles apart when they died and this could have led to them being buried in different locations but if they were near enough to have been both put into the same ambulance or other means of transport, it would have made sense to bury one next to the other.

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Well done Tony! As for the Syd Walt ambulance scenario this is a definate possibility you see I have an eye witness account that Syd was wounded in the lower body and bleeding heavily and was left for the stretcher bearers on the 27th May 1940. If Syd died on the 29th May there must again be a record or medical file relating to it..sound familiar!
Well done again mate
Best

Jim

Jim,

point taken and if Syd and Anthony were both wounded and waiting for stretcher bearers on the 27th but did not die until the 29th, they both had two days unaccounted for. I know I keep churning up the same thing time after time but the Germans would not have either or both of them lying around from the 27th to the 29th where they would be tripping people up. They would have either killed them, or took them to hospital. I'm sure I read that account of Syd lying badly wounded and having to be left by his comrades. If he was as badly wounded as I suspect, he would not have lived much past the 27th. This supports the possibility of him being looked after in hospital until his death.

Tony

Well done mate, at the very least you will now get this investigated (even if it gets nowhere) and thats a massive step forward.

Mornin.

Tony.Great job my friend, not only have you now got someone actually looking, you have, something that may prove important. a contact, not just a name on an email, you actually got to speak to someone. Well done.
But. While i am in agreement with your feelings that they were in Hospital, i am not sure that they would have been together.
This complete lack of Hospital Records is very annoying. They MUST hold the key to the whole thing. However i may be guilty of overestimating the hospital situation.
The German's preferred to use their own aid system rather than use local Hospitals,why, possibly because of the volume of wounded passing through. But what type and degree of wounds did they deal with.
Anthony, appears to have had wounds that RSM Goddard considered not to be serious. so would these be the type of wounds that the Field Aid Post/Hospital would be able to deal with. But Syd's wounds being too severe,and untreatable, would he have been taken elsewhere, to the local Hospital, which may have been more comfortable for a dying man. Possibly, but this does nothing to change my opinion that Anthony would more than likely have been taken to Calonne.




ivor

Thanks Dave,

Fingers crossed that it is the start of a spell of good news.

Tony

Thank you, Ivor,

It was indeed nice to have someone to talk to who did not immediately dismiss the case out of hand. Lets hope this is the start of a run of good luck.

Tony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vori101

Mornin.

Tony.Great job my friend, not only have you now got someone actually looking, you have, something that may prove important. a contact, not just a name on an email, you actually got to speak to someone. Well done.
But. While i am in agreement with your feelings that they were in Hospital, i am not sure that they would have been together.
This complete lack of Hospital Records is very annoying. They MUST hold the key to the whole thing. However i may be guilty of overestimating the hospital situation.
The German's preferred to use their own aid system rather than use local Hospitals,why, possibly because of the volume of wounded passing through. But what type and degree of wounds did they deal with.
Anthony, appears to have had wounds that RSM Goddard considered not to be serious. so would these be the type of wounds that the Field Aid Post/Hospital would be able to deal with. But Syd's wounds being too severe,and untreatable, would he have been taken elsewhere, to the local Hospital, which may have been more comfortable for a dying man. Possibly, but this does nothing to change my opinion that Anthony would more than likely have been taken to Calonne.




ivor

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Hello Everyone,
Just a very brief update Tony met with his MP who,with his secretary,were familiar with Anthony Corkhills disappearance and fully supportive of Tonys search for answers .The MP has sent off to the MoD requesting the information or to be put in touch with somone who can find it. The initial enquiry was met with our similar ` lets try and put them off again` letter stating very few records had been retained and most had now been destroyed..Rubbish of course.
Tony has spoken with the two representatives in the MoD and CWGC and they confirm they are still looking (which considering they first stated they had nothing to look at in the first instance is quite remarkable!) Its a waiting game.
One interesting point is the letter the MP drafted up in relation to the wearabouts of Forms Q in the letter it stated the ` MI9 form Q` quite correct of course but strangely enough ..we never mention this was MI9s form...a sign that the MP has done some homework on the matter prior to his letter to the MoD? Lets hope so.
A rather disappointing outcome to the Northern Echo line who after showing a little initial interest have cooled with `so busy have not the time to look into this` apparantly its been passed to another section.I have asked them to contact Tony via his email if nothing happens soon then the story will be off to another news paper!
A couple of weeks ago we tracked down a delightful 2DLI veteran celebrating his 100th birthday. Tony had a long chat with him but unfortunately he did not recall Anthony. He did state he doubted Anthony would have been an RSMs batman in war time which bears out the theory that Anthony filled this role pre war possibly in India or the Sudan..did I say a brief update Sorry!
Best

Jim

Jim do you not think the MP may have been aproached over this by someone in authority in the MOD before you and Tony got in touch, the fact he put the correct designation on the request would seem to suggest that just maybe he had. Or of course he just may have had a background in that sort of area and have known anyway. Nice to here about the Veteran i assume from this Anthony was in the Army during the times that the Battalion was serving in either of these areas ?. I have an idea that he may well be correct in saying that the RSM would not have had a batman during the war even many officers had to do without so far as i can make out (could be wrong on that though) after all the men had far more important things to do than making tea and maintaining the officers (and RSM,s) uniforms etc like fighting the enemy and staying alive.

Probobly wrong on this but thats my feelings for what they are worth.

Cheers now

Dave

Hi Guy's
Dave i have a suspicion that you may be right. I would expect the MP to have had a briefing from someone in authority over this. Hence his knowledge.

Jim.With regard to Anthony no longer, officially, being the RSM's batman. i would agree, but, is there a possibility that he may have, unofficially, continued to be. What i was wondering is, if the story of Anthony being a DR was correct would this post have allowed him to continue, in some limited way, with his previous duties. I am assuming that a DR would have been, generally, somewhere close to a HQ where it might be reasonable to expect the RSM to be.
Just a thought.


ivor

Ivor i suspect we may be taking the term batman to literaly it may be that RSM,s clerk would be a more appropriate term for Anthonys duties. Just a thought mate.

Dave.
While i accept your point. Would it really change my idea. Would it have been possible for him to have carried out the RSM's Clerical Duties on a temp basis and still be a DR.

ivor

Certainly Ivor indeed DR may well of been part of his duties as a clerk.

Hi Everyone,
What ever duties Anthony was performing that day as John pointed out a while back is not (yet) our main concern as the facts that we have show the RSM and Anthony in the same area hence the meeting on the canal bank.
In relation to the MP it was Tony who met him and Tony stated they were up to speed on the matter.In relation to the MI9 reference I believe that someone has briefed him yet the MoD and CWGC still deny any knowledge of Forms Q so who advise the MP about them?

A further update for you chaps Tony applied and received a copy of Anthonys death certificate cause of death ;-DIED of Wounds (Not believed to have Died of Wounds!!) Date of death 29th May 1940.....29th MAY 1940...bear this in mind people because you are not going to belive the next bit!

Tonys CWGC contact has been in touch in relation to the unknown soldier next to Syd Walt..their enquiries have established that this lad is a BRITISH ARMY CORPORAL who died sometime in MAY they do not have the exact date of death (Not bad going as they told me they did not hold records of unknowns yet they know this lad was a CORPORAL? why not AN UNKNOWN BRITISH CORPORAL KNOWN UNTO GOD HEADSTONE?) Moving on the CWGC can confirm only one soldier of the DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY died on the 29th May 1940 Pte Syd Walt???????????????? Wheres Anthony then as its now established on his Death Certificate he too died on the 29th MAY 1940 even their own website states the 29th MAY 1940
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/ca...ILL,%20ANTHONY

The CWGC update is amaturish in the extreme it contradicts its own website and to me it seems to have been passed to a junior clerk who has done a little more than a standard search passed it to his boss who has then read it out as it is written not bothering to check the information and hoping again this will go away! It won`t when will they get the message they are simply adding fuel to our fire?
The MP seems no fool will he accept this explaination hopefully not.

Best

Jim

Jim, from my experience the problem with the MOD may be down to the fact that we are haing to lose one third of full time workers therefore policy is to not deal with anything they consider unimportant. This may be very important to Anthony but less so to the MOD.
Other factor may well be that many posts in the department are now filled by Agency or short term workers who with the best will in the world will not have the knowledge of records, forms and proceedures etc that full time long serving civil servants would, in my own area for instance over 60% of people fall into the Agency or short term workers and the few full time workers are now fielding most queries. This doesnt excuse the fact they say they have no knowledge of Q forms but it may explain why they are saying this.
My belief is that this problem is caused by government cut backs in the department and employing agency workers who know they can be told we dont need you tomorrow at any time. Not sure about the CWGC though it may be they have the same problem.

Sorry but this still smacks of a cover up for some reason.

The death cert is interesting as has been noted elsewhere saying DIED OF WOUNDS would suggest that someone witnessed his death and this is i believe the crucial area for us. As for who has advised the MP about the M19 Q form obviously some one higher up in the MOD IS taking an interest in this because it would in my opinion have been a senior civil servant advisor (or a VERY senior military officer). Was the MP told of this before Anthony contacted him personaly or after because if it was before then once more an attempted cover up is suggested to me.


Cheers

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

Jim, from my experience the problem with the MOD may be down to the fact that we are haing to lose one third of full time workers therefore policy is to not deal with anything they consider unimportant. This may be very important to Anthony but less so to the MOD.
Other factor may well be that many posts in the department are now filled by Agency or short term workers who with the best will in the world will not have the knowledge of records, forms and proceedures etc that full time long serving civil servants would, in my own area for instance over 60% of people fall into the Agency or short term workers and the few full time workers are now fielding most queries. This doesnt excuse the fact they say they have no knowledge of Q forms but it may explain why they are saying this.
My belief is that this problem is caused by government cut backs in the department and employing agency workers who know they can be told we dont need you tomorrow at any time. Not sure about the CWGC though it may be they have the same problem.

Sorry but this still smacks of a cover up for some reason.

The death cert is interesting as has been noted elsewhere saying DIED OF WOUNDS would suggest that someone witnessed his death and this is i believe the crucial area for us. As for who has advised the MP about the M19 Q form obviously some one higher up in the MOD IS taking an interest in this because it would in my opinion have been a senior civil servant advisor (or a VERY senior military officer). Was the MP told of this before Anthony contacted him personaly or after because if it was before then once more an attempted cover up is suggested to me.


Cheers

Dave

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Morning Dave,
To be fair to the MoD they are very quiet on the matter I believe the only `info` recieved directly from them was the `brush off letter` since then Tony has spoken with the contact who as far as we know is `still looking into it`. The latest info is from the CWGC who throughout this have constantly denied holding anything! The information or lack of it concerning the `unknowns`,to me anyway, is unacceptable during and after the war the War Office instigated `Searcher Parties for those unaccounted for they produced `Missing Men files` for EVERY regiment including the DLI yet Anthony appears in none of them..again I`m repeating what I`ve stated from the beginning and what I know a lot of you agree with ,,,why Anthony was never featured was he was never missing he was `DEAD ,DIED OF WOUNDS 29th MAY 1940` We realised this a long time ago so why can they not see it and concentrate on finding answers not repeatedly going over old ground.
Instead of stating wrongly that only 1 DLI soldier died on the 29th May 1940 why do they not look at their records to see if by any chance they hold a record of one of these unfortunate souls having died on the 29th May 1940? Or another line of enquiry would be if Syd,having been wounded on the 27th like Anthony died in a hospital and which one then by checking with these records perhaps a second casualty having died on the same day could perhaps be identified?
Another dissappointing `error` again from the CWGC is contained in Tonys most recent reply where the contact stated,and I`m quoting direct from the reply letter here

Quote:

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The cemetery records also detail several further unknowns with a May 1940 date of death in Row A, Plot 3 and there are a total of 50 unknowns buried at St. Venant.

I can also confirm that Sydney Walt is the only DLI casualty with a date of death of 29/5/1940, although as indicated above several unknowns have been allocated a May 1940 date of death.

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50 Unknowns.........................50 Unknowns.............where have the other ten appeared from as John and myself worked out the full list from the CWGC cemetery plan! Below is another quote this time from the CWGC site itself notice the glaring error!

Quote:

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During the 1939-45 War, St. Venant was the centre of heavy fighting when delaying actions covered the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force to the coast. In fact British troops continued fighting at St. Venant after the evacuation of Dunkirk, and 90 or more were buried in a mass grave in a field at St. Venant. The 1939-45 burials are in Plots III and IV.

There are 253 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-18 war, 10 of which are unidentified, and 177 of the 1939-1945 war, 40 of which are unidentified, in this site. The 1939-45 total includes the 90 originally buried in a mass grave and an officer who is commemorated by a special memorial inscribed "Believed to be".

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So now we have had quoted wrongly `only one DLI died on the 29th May Syd Walt` We are unaware of any mass grave at St Venant` `There are 50 unknowns` is it incompetance or just plain laziness? If you are right Dave and this is unimportant to the MoD or is being dealt with by people on short term contracts I have this to say `This country should honour its fallen,sadly it does not the organisations there to commemorate them produce range upon range of glossy brochures and forget their core responsibilities.Those on short contracts would they really not bother? If so then they are,again in my opinion ,in the wrong job! Every November this country makes a great fuss at the Cenotaph `remembering` but do we remember for the right reasons not if we as a country do not support families like the Corkhills whose sons,brothers,uncles grandfathers have given all ,and are then forgotten or not deemed important enough for the relevant organisations to `bother themselves` with outstanding issues. Sad

Best

Jim

Hi Jim i agree with most of what you say, however ref the CWGC it may be that like every department you get a dfifferent person every time you make an enquiry which means that if they dont talk to each other you WILL get the same ground covered every time. Many of the short term or agency workers may well not even know what records they do hold let alone where they are or how to sort through them. Sadly this is a result of government policy to get rid of long serving and experienced civil servants in favour of workers who can be dropped at will rather than going through legalities (its cheaper for one thing ie no redundancy payments, they cannot be in a union so no strikes and till recently less leave allowance and far poorer terms and conditions. There are from personal experience more Agency and short term workers with the attitude of why bother when we may not be here tomorrow than ones who genuinly want to do a good job, i suppose you cant really blame them they are in it for the money however short term that is (personaly i would ban the parasitic Agencies since they are living of other folks misery) but sadly many firms will now only take on workers through an agency.

As you say nothing seems to fit with the CWGC, s answers, also i am still wary about the apparent lack of help from the MOD when it seems obvious someone high up has been speaking to Anthonys local MP and given him information that they deny exists i will repeat this smacks of a cover up to me.

Lets face it mate the government makes all these statements about looking after our warriors but this is in my view crocodile tears and i honestly dont believe they care at all. Lastly it is indeed sad that this state of affairs exists but over centuries it has ever been so.
All you can do is keep pushing in any direction you can think off mate and i wish you the best of luck

Cheers

Dave