saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

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13-07-2012, 23:11
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Tony, the CWGC use the date a man was found to be dead. I have an example of a man missing at Festubert 16/05/1915, with a short note in the file saying "buried by 2 Yorks 15/07/1915. The latter is his official date of death. Before that he was officially missing. Many more examples exist. Remember that in many cases it's guesswork, more than anything else. If you want to be absolutely certain, ask the CWGC how they came by the date. And as for the stretcher bearers, they too were SS men. An SS Regt such as the Germania Regt at St Venant had all supporting services, often more and better than the regular army.

Ivor, the RWF WD specifically mentions a withdrawal from St Floris to St Venant, HQ at the cemetery, and later states that 'the bridge at St Venant was blown. Troops of A and D Coys had to swim the canal."
The capture of St Floris on the 24th is described, but there is no mention of a bridge.

John
13-07-2012, 23:28
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Additional info;- I have copy of the letter that RSM Goddard wrote on the 25 September 1941 to the International Red Cross. He states.............he was taken prisoner of war together with me on the morning of 27th May 1940 at St Venant near Merville in France..............the German guards odered us to make him comfortable on the canal bank near the village..............at the time the situation in the area was quiet.

I also have most of the very letter that RSM Goddard wrote to my Grandfather, Anthony's father. It is undated but must have been written in 1945 at the end of the war;-

Dear Mr Corkhill,...........on the 27th May 1940 I was captured at St Venant and as I was being moved to the rear(?) I heard your son's voice calling me from the canal bank. I immediately went over to him.......he had a flesh wound to the neck and wounds to both legs.......................the fighting in the area had ceased and there was no apparent danger of him receiving further wounds.

Taken prisoner at St Venant......make him comfortable on the canal bank, near the village.

This making me think.
14-07-2012, 00:59
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
There are a no of things in the diary that don’t match up with what is known. i think the Doc I linked from the RWF Museum could be a better source of info.
As soon as I can I will find the ref to the temporary bridge.
It is highly unlikely that Col Harrison escaped over the St Venant Bridge as that would not put him in the position where we believe he was killed.
The German’s could not have used the St Venant Bridge as that was blown and we have accounts of tanks crossing to the north bank on 27^th.
I believe that the name St Venant is used as a general term for the area and does not always refer to the town.
We have several reports that the Bn Hq suffered a direct hit on 27^th. It was wiped out so how could it have been withdrawn.
We know that RWF and 2DLI’s had Hq’s some 500yds (east?) from the bridge that the German’s then crossed.
We have reports of a group of 60 men heading for the forest to the north. Not Haveskirque.
And now we have evidence that RSM Goddard was seen by Major Townsend directing traffic across this bridge
John, why there would be no mention of this in the diary I have no idea. But there can be no doubt that this bridge existed and that a lot of men died trying to hold it. And I am absolutely certain that it was not St Venant.

Ivor
Oh, when I was a police officer if a had, had this much evidence on a case I would have been very happy to go to court.
14-07-2012, 10:56
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quoting from the Museum website:

Apart from heavy shelling and the sight of numbers of German tanks and infantry moving across the front, 26 May was uneventful. The Durham Light Infantry took over Saint-Floris, allowing the Battalion to concentrate around Saint-Venant. Having sent the transport over the canal, Lieutenant Colonel Harrison sought permission to withdraw to the north bank, but this was refused, so the Battalion settled down to await the inevitable attack. This started at 8 a.m. on 27 May, and it was soon clear that no weapons were available that could stop the medium tanks of the 3rd Panzer Division. At 9 a.m. the Brigadier ordered the D.L.I. to fall back through the Royal Welch, but they were too closely engaged to extricate themselves. Colonel Harrison therefore ordered all his men who could get clear to double back over the canal bridge which was now under machine-gun fire from both sides. He followed them but was killed shortly after reaching the north bank. At this stage it was found that the engineers waiting to demolish the bridge were no longer there, so that the German tanks were able to cross on the heels of the survivors, killing some and taking others prisoner.

I read this as follows:
- DLI take over St Floris, RWF concentrate at St Venant
- DLI unable to fall back on St Venant
- RWF crosses canal - evidently at St Venant, unless they had gone back to St Floris
- bridge not blown

Assuming your agreement, Ivor, I have sent an email to the authors of the coming vol 5 of the RRRWF, LtGen Riley and LtCol Sinnett, asking for clarification. I hope that we'll be able to put this story to rest after that.

As for the DLI crossing, that may well have been at St Floris. Where is our resident DLI historian? Jim?

John
14-07-2012, 11:35
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

john.
i think at his point independent clarification is needed. as i said previously i believe this confusion of bridges has been going on for over 70 yrs. so maybe you were right we may rewrite history.
i look foreward to their conclusions.
whatever the outcome this has been absolutely fascinating.
but it is'nt finished yet .
14-07-2012, 11:59
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Fascinating indeed, Ivor! We may even be talking about two bridges, one for the RWF and one for the DLI. Anyway, I hope that with the aid of LtGen Riley and LtCol Sinnett we'll be able to put this to bed for once and for all. I'll keep you informed.

My French friend just now informed me that he is not getting anywhere. The town hall has no papers relevant to the search, the local historian says that he has given up, believing the task to be impossible. Bad news.

John
14-07-2012, 16:03
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
Mon cher ami
At last, admission of a second bridge, thank you, we progress.
Believe me A Co RWF was also at this bridge.
Now I am going to ask you to take a leap of faith.
I fully understand why your friend has given up. But can you try and generate I bit more enthusiasm in him for another quest. or two.

First could he find out why the village to the north has a Rue Du Colonel Harrison.
I think that might be quit enlightening, as I do not think that this sort of thing would be done for no reason, so what did Col Harrison do to deserve this honour. this may not be that difficult.

Second. To see if he can find any evidence of the bridge at St Floris. If, as records show a large force crossed this bridge then I would imagine that they would first concentrate on the south side to prepare for the crossing and assault on Merville which we know they did. also if there was ever a Farm Boulet within that area.

This bridge is said to have been ‘later removed’. But when was it removed, it could have been there for quite a few years.
An instance of a ‘Bailey bridge ‘ being in place for a long time occurred just to the north of TYWYN.(West Wales ) where I now live when in UK. This bridge crossed the Dysynni river close to the railway bridge and connected the Ton Fanau camp with the Morfa camp at Tywyn. I have no doubt that some members of the forum will remember it. I do not know exactly when it as removed. But it is not that long ago.

As i have said before I suspect that Farm Boulet may have effectively ceased to exist around this time. We know the barn was destroyed in this action is it not likely that the house suffered damage also. We are of course fully aware of the Kind, Caring and Considerate nature towards life and property of these advancing S.S.Troops.

I hope your friend will consider this request favourably as I think he may get some useful info, hopefully with a lot less trouble.
I suspect chatting to a few of the older locals over a glass of Wine in a local bar might prove enlightening. Of course he may have to provide some of the wine. But I am sure if need be we can make a contribution.

ivor
14-07-2012, 16:48
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, my friend has not given up. He is looking for other approaches.

As for Ferme Boulet being near the bridge, I must disappoint you. The War Crimes report clearly states that it was on the Rue du Bas Hamel. We can disregards Ferme Boulet. RSM Goddard was nowhere near it, and neither was Anthony Corkhill.

I'll keep you informed of developments, mon cher ami!

John
14-07-2012, 18:30
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Sorry but whilst not ruling out St Floris as a crossing I remain unconvinced at this time that 2 DLI were there.There are a lot of discrepancies between the diaries of the different units but having read a lot of Regimental and Personal accounts none have mentioned the actions of the 27th May 1940 taking place at St Floris .
The 2 DLI diaries deal in the main with the actions of C and A Companies,Hq Company only get a mention in the later hours,I very much doubt that HQ Company existed as a Company in anything but words. D and B Companies as discovered by George Rodgers, fought under different Prefixes but in reality what did they number?
The Histories are based on eyewitness reports and the Diaries (Accurate or not).Unless there has become available a new source of information I fail to see what any new publication can reveal no matter who the distinguished gentlemen are who compile them. I remain unconvinced.

I am not a `DLI expert` far from it what Ive learnt comes from a lifelong family interest I offered to help Tony with what I could and I think I provided a lot of food for thought as well as a lot of factual evidence and documentation from the period. I could offer him no more that is why he has turned to yourselves,a fresh pair of eyes so to speak who have a lot of RWF knowledge.Hopefully you will get there in the end it would be tremendous if you could...but...and there always is one I have not seen any factual evidence to support it.We must be careful of rewriting History bare in mind the recent Tom Rodgers Plaque erected with the blessing of the Mayor and the various Regimental Associations,that plaque is the map I posted for reference...if the Crossing was at St Floris then unfortunately History has already been re-written as this `Historical` plaque is wrong/misleading.

I don`t think this one would get past the CPS.http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/ima...ons/icon12.pngSorry I remain to be convinced

Best Wishes

Jim
15-07-2012, 01:54
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi again

Firstly. John.
Sorry, I miss read your post it is good that your friend is still on the trail. But I hope he might find some time to look at the points i raised.

Second. Jim.
Interesting post and again very informative. But, I understand that Tom Rodgers was killed in the fighting, with others, west of St Venant. Our search is for a wounded man left behind by his unit who had either escaped to safety, were captured or dead who was murdered in cold blood by a S.S. thug. To me this is very different.
I recall you saying that the DLI war diaries were lost and what you have were rewritten some time later. Whilst I agree there are discrepancies within them, which I suppose is to be expected, there is ample evidence to prove that D Co 2DLI , or what was left of it were at St Floris together with A Co RWF.
This is recorded in the RWF Diary and is confirmed in the post by jungle. It is further confirmed by Major Townsend.
As I said before this action can not have taken place at St Venant as we have evidence that the bridge there was blown. As some of RWF had to swim across the canal. This action can only have taken place at this 2^nd bridge which evidence seems to indicate was at St Floris.
We know this action took place from early on 27^th, both from Major Townsend and from RSM Goddard’s letter.
We also know that at some time on 27^th tanks crossed to the north bank.
Jim. I can assure you i have been thinking very hard about this for quite some time but which ever way I look at what is known I can not escape the conclusion that this action could not have taken place in St Venant.

With regard to rewriting the history of this action I do not know what was done with regard the Tom Rogers investigation and I do not think it would be relevant to what we are doing.
I have been convinced for quite some time that I know where this shooting took place. But that is not sufficient, you, teecee, john and everyone else involved would have to agree also. We can not take this anywhere until we are all in agreement.
However I have a very uneasy feeling that what we are doing is the easy part. But we will solve this, and if our findings do not quite fit the ideas of others. I have one word for them. Tough.

ivor

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