saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

ok i am now live again.
i have quoted the following from teecee because it illustrates nicely one of the major points of confusion :-

''Before sentiment takes over, I have an extract from the diary of Major Townsend of the events of the 27th;- ''A verbal message came up that Col Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge, wanted (to speak with) Col Simpson. As the CO had recently been at the RWF HQ talking to Bde HQ by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was (space) I crawled back to see Col Harrison. He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead. I was to bring back any men I could''

this account must refer to the bridge at St Floris, not St Venant, as we know that Col Harrison escaped over this bridge.
this i think has been a source of confusion for a long time and maybe we can now put the record straight. It seems clear that at 0600 on 27th both RWF and 2DLI Bn Hq's were to the east of the St Floris bridge, RWF Hq takes a direct hit and all communications were lost, By Whom?
it would appear from the quote that wireless communications between RWF Hq and Bde Hq were still possible.
Could the Hq in the cemetery have been a Company Hq and because it assumed that everyone at Bn Hq was out of action promoted itself to Bn Hq? i also seem to recall that 2DLI did not relocate to the Cemetery area until after the loss of the bridge.
The defense of the St Floris bridge was the vital element in this battle.it's loss allowed the Germans a crossing point much further east than those at Robecq. So i think it reasonable to assume that all relevant staff would be within the area.

I am actually beginning to think that the Germans would have considered the St Floris bridge as much more important than the St Venant bridge. this was a purpose built construction with known limits. whereas the St Venant bridge was probably quite old and whilst suitable for local needs may not have been able to withstand the stresses of heavy traffic.


ivor

Hello All,
Info from the movements on the 24th May. As the day wore on parties of French infantry began to arrive nd it was confirmed they were to take over the BACHY position whilst the battalion (RWF) moved back to a rest area near LA BASSEE as G.H.Q Reserve Once again Major Owen set off to recce the new position they arrived at LA BASSEE just after it's second heavy air raid of the day. After some delay he reached DIV H.Q. to learn that the Battalion (RWF) were to with draw to the village of VIELLE CHAPELLE with the idea of holding up the enemy on the line of the LA BASSEE canal.
There were no maps available of the roads back to VIELLE CHAPELLE and the thick mist which came down with the coming of darkness made the task of lorry drivers more even more difficult . The battalion (RWF) was due to start it's move at 2300 hours but it was not until 05-00hrs on the 24th that the lorries at last appeared . A wide detour was made around LILLE which was being heavily attacked from the air and as the sun rose and dispersed the mist the column was bombed as it was passing through the village of ANOELIN but the whole convoy reached VIELLE CHAPELLE in safety. the companies were quickly dispersed to billets and all ranks settled down to rest

But once again it was not to be for long. Events now were moving rapidly and it was from the west that the new attacks were coming , BOULGNE had fallen and CALAIS attacked by two German Divisions, was in the last throes of of it's heroic defence. The new threat to the B.E.F. was mounted from the the direction of the Channel ports. and a swift thrust from the west had taken the enemy across the LA BASSEE canal in the vicinity of CALONNE sur LYS. It was the to be task of 6th infantry Brigade to recapture the four bridges over the canal near ROBECQ and hold them until the R.E could blow them. In the absence of any maps of the district the advance was a difficult one even more so by by the lack of any precise knowledge of the extent of the enemy 's advance. Riding in T.C.V's the Battalion proceeded via LA FOSSE and MERVILLE
to CALONNE where the T.C,V's left them. From CALONNE the companies were to march forward to ST FLORIS thee to divide with "C" coy objective as ST VENANT and the right hand bridge "B" coy ROBEQ and the two centre bridges and "D" coy to the left of "B" and the left hand bridge "A" Coy was to be held in reserve at ST FLORIS The carrier platoon under 2nd Lt J Garnett led the way to ST FLORIS with "C" Coy following on foot messages soon coming back to say the village was in the hands lof the enemy
Regard RBD

Some info on two of your points, Ivor.

As for the extent of the St Venant commune, if you look at St Venant on Google Maps you will see the exact area nicely coloured pink.

From the Townsend diary it is clear that at least the remnants of D Coy 2 DLI were near the bridge, under cmd of CSM Metcalfe (who received the MC for his efforts). The remnants of B Coy 2 DLI may have ended up in the Bas-Hamel to the Haverskerque foot bridge area, cut off from the main body. No definite info there.

I think that 'No.6' can be discounted. We must look for Tony's uncle near the bridge.

John

Additional info: according to the DLI WD, Bde HQ was situated at Le Touquet, just north of Haverskerque, off the main road. See my 1917 map.

John

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/r.../other/map.jpgIvor,This is a re-working of The Tom Rodgers Memorial Plaque.Perhaps it will help?
Best Wishes
Jim

I have now seen the relevant pages of Capt Townsend's diary. He describes how, in the early morning of the 27th, RSM Goddard is evacuating Bn HQ vehicles across the bridge. The RWF pulls back closer to the bridge. DLI HQ receives a direct hit. Then three German armoured cars approach along the tow-path. The sole remaining 2-pdr is out of action. While groups of men remain on the south bank, unable to move under the heavy enemy fire, Townsend and some others manage to escape across the bridge. They are followed by a German tank which turns into the head of the Haverskerque road where it is then disabled by an 18-pdr.

We must look for Tony's uncle near the St Venant bridge.

John.

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A lot more info, but a lot more confusion.
All this hinges on 2 bridges, the St Venant town bridge and a temporary bridge at St Floris
This has been causing confusion since 1940 so can we possibly now solve this problem ?
We know that the maps of France had been withdrawn. So the commanders in the field, in such a fluid situation, possibly were, at times, not exactly sure where the troops were.
St Venant was the larger community in this particular area so I would assume that it was used as a ‘cover all’ for the area. St Floris is not really mentioned. But in this eastern phase of this operation this was a much more critical position than St Venant.
The bridge at St Venant was a town bridge which may have been suitable for local traffic, but may not have been suitable for sustained heavy traffic. I do not believe this bridge was ever a serious target for the assaulting forces
However the bridge at St Floris, was referred to a ‘temporary bridge’. we know that 3Panzer had bridging units with it, and that bridge building equipment was capture at St Floris. And we know that after the battle in this area there was major armoured movement over it. So I have no hesitation in believing that this bridge was put in place by the bridge engineers of 3 Panzer. It was purpose built with known limits etc and considerably further east than the Robecq bridges that actually faced west/south.
This, I am sure, would have been the main thrust of the German assault not St Venant.
The St Floris Bridge is in open country. The St Venant Bridge is in the middle of a town. The St Floris Bridge is purpose built, the St Venant Bridge is an unknown quantity. To me. No contest.
The operation in the west after securing the bridges at Robecq would probably, to the Germans at least, be more of a ‘mopping up’ exercise. They had secured their objectives.
OK. let us go back to the eastern action. we have evidence from the diary of Major Townsend, that at least the remnant of D Co. 2DLI were here, and from RWF diary that A Co RWF had been positioned on the left of 2DLI these units formed a defensive line from a point at least 500yds to the east of the St Floris bridge. Presumably on a south to west arc. With RWF nearest to the bridge.
Now on the Map (Page 27 of the Red Dragon) submitted by jungle. It shows a Brigade HQ on the edge of Calonne near the junction of the Robecq Rd. I would assume that this would be within the defensive line. I have already written on this in my last post.
However from jungle’s last post. which states D CO RWF was to take the East Bridge at Robecq, that B CO had the 2 middle bridges and C CO the western bridge on the St Venant Rd and that A Co RWF was being held as reserve at St Floris. But the map shows A & C Co’s as being held just west of St Venant this would have probably been 24^th/25^th May. So it would appear that A Co was withdrawn to St Floris. To the defensive line.
There is also evidence that 2 DLI had a HQ 500yds from the St Floris Bridge with a RWF Hq close by( which took a direct hit on 27^th), we know this, again from the Diary of Major Townsend.
It is my feeling that references to St Venant in some instances should be treated with a certain amount of caution.
Jim thanks for the Tom Rodgers info but I am not sure A Co RWF were actually at that location.


John. This action is at the St Floris Bridge. Major Townsend states that ‘’a verbal message came up that Col Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge wanted to speak to Col Simpson. As………. I crawled back to see Col Harrison………………………………I was to bring back any men I could’’
WE KNOW COL HARRISON WAS AT THE St FLORIS BRIDGE.

Ivor, if you are correct in stating that 'the bridge' was the temporary bridge at St Floris built by 3 Pz, does that imply that RSM Goddard was evacuating Bn HQ vehicles across a bridge in German hands?
Also, from the St Floris bridge, a tank could not immediately turn into the Haverskerque road, as Townsend describes. That would be a mile away, trough terrain criss-crossed with ditches. From the Rue de Motte Baudet, another 2500 yds.

I think the St Venant road bridge is meant.

John

Hello again all, something that keeps gnawing away at me about Anthony's disappearance is this;- The CWGC has his date of death as 29th May 1940. This not negotiable. Even the Roll of Honour in the DLI Chapel in Durham Cathedral displays his name on this day. RSM Goddard was the last person of any significance to see him alive and, on the 25/09/41, wrote to the Red Cross to say that this had been on the 27th May 1940. There are no records of him being dead or alive after that date. Can anyone say why the CWGC say that he died on that day? All along, I have thought that although the Germans said that they were going to take him to hospital, they would have got rid of him as soon as RSM Goddard was marched off to a POW camp. But,just supposing, the stretcher bearers who RSM Goddard spoke to, were just ordinary soldiers doing their every-day work and had no connection with the SS. Just supposing they did take Anthony to hospital like they said they would. What if the SS came into the hospital a day or two later and shot him then?

Is it not possible that the DLI were told of Anthony's death by a witness and at a time of 'stocktaking' added his name to the list of the dead. RSM Goddard would be ignorant of Anthony's death as he was well on his way to the camp by then, where he spent the rest of the war.

There is no doubt that the CWGC were at some time informed by someone of Anthony's death. They did not just pull the date from a conjurors hat. Would it be possible to find out this information? Would the CWGC tell me if I asked them? I would really like to hear everyone's views on this.

If Anthony was indeed shot in hospital, this discounts soldier No 6 and possibly makes the task of finding out the truth almost an impossible task.

Thanks

Tony

john
the bridge at S Floris was taken by RWF on 23rd/24th when they took St Floris/ St Venant. you will recall that bridge building equipment was captured in St Floris. the German assault to the east of St Floris on 27th was to recapture this bridge.
it was held by 2 DLI and RWF until sometime on 27th the accounts regarding the escape of Col Harrison and now Major Townsend was over this bridge.i am not sure about the tank i will keep an open mind on that at the moment.
But if Major Townsend puts RSM Goddard directing traffic over a bridge on 27th it will be the St Floris Bridge of that i am certain.