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I would very much like to wish a happy and prosperous New Year to all of the 126 members who have read this thread. Special thanks to Jim, John, Ivor and Dave and all others who took the time to be involved during 2012. Your efforts are very much appreciated.
Regards,
Tony
Hello,
All the best everyone a little late I know but better late than never.
To continue.......
I`m still working on those lists its taking longer than I anticipated..actually I`m prone to distraction! One distraction I have found is while examaning The Townsend Diaries unfortunately it is not going to help our search for Anthony one bit I`m afraid.The Diary reveals that following the actions on the Dyle 2 DLI pulled back to a new line six miles in the rear ,shortly afterwards they were pulled back again in need of organisation the men were distrubuted into `new` Companies headed by what officers they had with CSMs and senior NCOs filling in for officers...would this mean RSM Goddard would now leave HQ Company and head one of these ad hoc Companies?
If he did we do`nt know but what Townsend does record is that following the `fallback` there was no time for transport to be brought forward and ALL military equipment was abandoned save for Brens and Anti tank rifles which they carried away.He further states with No Signal Equipment,Pioneer Equipment etc there was no need to keep HQ Company intact and its personnel were used as riflemen distributed between the companies. Who was Anthony with on the 27th May 1940 ? Remember Remnants of B Company together with D Company were at the `other` Bridge.A and C Companies were along the railway line in St Venant and their HQ was in the cemetery.
The audio recordings at the IWM are now back online and Fred Cottier recalls some of the Pioneers who were guarding the HQ managed to escape by swimming the canal further downstream. The audios whilst useful for background make no mention of the RSM or his batman indeed Cottier had been dispatched to the other bank to carry a message to brigade and when he returned it was all over.Sgt Wray was wounded and was brought to HQ and escaped from it but he was with A and C companies during the fighting and again witnessed the end of the action (and one named persons death in suspicious circumstances)
More distractions today when I found in Newcastle the grave of a Pte Clews in 1940 2 DLI again and died of his wounds on returning to England on doing some background checks I find in April 1946 The London Gazette published that Pte Clews had been awarded a postumous Mention in Despatches for 1940.Six years after the event ? Obviously on the recommendation of a returning PoW ? Digging a little deeper into that issue we find more awards for the period..Col Simpson CO of 2 DLI a DSO...Major Stallard 2 IC 2 DLI a DSO,Sgt Major Harry Quatrough a Military Cross, and the following additional Mention in Despatches ;-
Maj. (temp.) J. R. COUSENS (37178).
Capt. (Q.M.) O. H. PEARSON, M.B.E. (56511).
2/Lt. H. M. W. PEEL (74853) (died/posthumous).
4443691 W.O. Ill S. J. McGUIRE ( died).
4442038 W.O. Ill F. WALKER.
4449177 Sgt. W. J. CLEWS ( died).
4446379 Cpl. W. CURTIS ( died).
4449346 Pte. C. E. SUTTON.
The citations are held at the National Archives and whilst a lot of MiDs are `missing` the likes of DSO`s and Military Crosses survive..except for this entire list which are `missing`!!!
I have previously corresponded with members of Sgt Major Qualtroughs extended family and not only was my enquiry into the circumstances of his award unfruitful but the fact that he had a Military Cross was a total surprise! Are we cursed? :-)
Dave I owe you an email mate Sorry.
Best
Jim
No probs Jim. This is all interesting and a few more pieces to fit into the puzzle. Just a shame the Royal Berks war diaries for the period seem to be "missing". Ah well you have done well to dig these snippets up mate and im sure there is much more to find yet, at the very least we are giving Anthony a real insight into what happened in the area over those 4 days.
Anthony dont give up mate eventually something may yet appear that gives at least a clue to your enquiry.
Cheers now folks
Dave
Hello,
I have corresponded with Tony over the last week or so and once again we have discussed how their was no missing man enquiry for Anthony,and how he could be definately listed as dead on the 29th May 1940. We went over a little old ground and on what the CWGC rely on for a date of death `In the case of a missing soldier such as Anthony Corkhill with his body not found/identified they go by the last date he was seen...which was? The 27th May 1940 by RSM Goddard on the canal bank as he was marched away? So the question is who bore witness to Anthonys death two days later on the 29th May?
I have thrown a few ideas into the ring over the course of these investigations and one in particular regarding the returning wounded 2DLI men in April/May 1942 was one of them and if any completed a PoW questionaire detailing (Briefly) their capture tratment and if they witnessed any war crimes (Q Forms) now that I have jogged a few memories lets briefly move to more recent lines of enquiry.
When speaking with Tony he remarked on Anthony being the only 2 DLI listed in the Book of Rememberance in Durham Cathederal yet when I checked there are three 2 DLI men listed as died on the 29th May 1940 one died of wounds at home (earlier action ?) The other two Anthony and a Pte Syd Walt who is buried at St Venant. Now Syd Walt I had looked into long before I heard from Tony and his quest for his uncle.
Syd Walt like Anthony was not featured in the missing men investigations so it was presumed by me that he had been killed in action and buried in one of the temp graves until his reburiel at St Venant I did not even notice that the date of death was two days after the action had ended.
When John kindly sent over the list of men buried in the large mass grave I started to sift through the casualty lists from the other temp graves in the area no Pte Syd Walt ??? He was listed with Anthony as `Dead` but nothing else ...until I found today tucked at the back of the file barely legible ` Died of Wounds accepted 26/06/1942??? The 26th June 1942 there are others too all confirmed in the first week of June 1942.
Where did the confirmation come from ? The Missing men investigation? Possibly but the British had approached the Red Cross to make the enquiries with the French and German authorities their letters dated 5/08/1942 and 27/11/1942. The replies from ZOLLINGER IRC GENEVA ,CSM PINKNEY PoW. and forwarded by SCHWEIZ GESANDSCHAFF ABT SCHUTZMACHT BERLIN were not received until 21st and 24th June 1943. A year after the acceptance/confirmation dates could Anthonys Q80 reference have been added at the same time ? It too is on the same list in Pencil just like these acceptance dates.
Hopefully I still have your attention and you have`nt nodded off just yet, with confirmation/acceptance in June 1942 would this not tie in with those returning PoWs I mentioned earlier April/May 1942. Pte Walt is listed as Died of Wounds somebody,like Anthony Corkhills case,witnessed this else how would they know he wasnt Killed in Action,Died of Illness etc .
Anythoughts I know its all `what ifs` but there isnt many of those returning PoWs from 2 DLI worthy of further investigation or have I missed something glaringly obvious?
Best Wishes
Jim
Thanks for the update, Jim.
Perhaps Anthony's service record, when it arrives at last, will shed some light on this. And that form Q 80 must one day turn up, given a competent researcher.
Earlier this week I heard from the VDK (the German equivalent of the CWGC) that they have not yet found any relevant information but will continue the search. I sent them a new summary of our current thinking.
John
Morning John,
You are more than welcome .At least they (VDK) are looking which is a good thing,I have still to hear about the proposed article in the magazine and will need to get an enquiry off to the MoD ..and finish those lists off! Best get back to it.
Thanks John
Best Wishes
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconwallah
Hi all.
I hope everyone has fully recovered from the festive season.
I may have been quiet for a while, but not idle. i have been very quietly digging around the edges of this situation, and found some interesting stuff. However most of it is not directly concerned with this quest.
One thing which i was trying to get my head round was the apparent lack of info held by CWGC/MoD, although it is known that they have, twice, been given copies of the files held in France.
Jim tells me that these files were generated in 1941/42 by the local authorities when the Field Graves were cleared, the bodies autopsied, Under German Supervision, and re buried in St Venant. obviously no British involvement.
Now in 1946, for reasons which i do not quite understand, the British exhume some of the bodies and, this is where the problem arises,allegedly, put them back in the wrong locations.
So it would appear that the Frenchman holds the keys to the original info and the British,doing a good impression of an Ostrich, will have nothing to do with it Oh Dear. Maybe someone needs a size 9 to the 3rd lace hole in an appropriate orifice.
The next bit concerns the St Floris incident in which Lt John Brooksbank Garnett was killed. the date on his grave marker of the 23 rd, despite CWGC saying different, would appear to be correct.
I have see a death notice from the Times dated 23 May 1943, anniversary?. which states 23 rd May 1940. Also on a family Memorial in their local church at their home in Co Tyrone it also states 23rd.
There is still a lot more about this period that is not clear,and despite some fairly extensive surface scratchings and peering into a few dark corners,it isn't becoming any clearer.Odd.
Oh well, have to keep looking.
ivor
Jim, could not the 1942 year be when the bodies were reburied on orders of the Germans ? the word "accepted" would appear to suggest this.
Ivor we have conversed at lenght about this brick wall and for the same reasons discussed it may be that the Frenchman is in on it.
Ref the date of the 23rd for death of Lt John Brooksbank Garnett there is burials in St Floris dated the 23rd including your Lieutenant (you probobly already know this) http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288. Seems strange since i was not aware there were any British in that area on that date. Strange that there are 7 graves all with date of death the 23rd or are these reburials and the date was assumed wrongly.
Is it possible that the bodies were exhumed to try to get evidence for a war crimes investigation/trial that or to try to identify some of the unknowns to me would be the only logical conclusions.
Cheers now folks
Dave
Hi Dave.
Whilst in most circumstances i would not necessarily trust the CWGC dating, but in the circumstances surrounding these particular 7 deaths i am , from the evidence i have seen, totally convinced that it is correct. Also from what i said in my previous post, it would appear the Family also accepted it.
I do not think there would have been too much investigation into it.
ivor
Fair enough mate, was just an idea.
Hi Dave,
Yes I always assumed this however the list of dead from the Mayor only exists in the War Crime File. Thats not to say it wasnt sent on earlier a distinct possibility I agree. The men classed as missing also have comments regarding sightings/fate and dates interesting enough the witness is named too but they are all different no one man witnessed more than a single case.Frustrating!. Something is starting to become apparent regarding these dates of death I do`nt have the details but once I do I`ll post anything relevant.
Best Wishes
Jim
PS I still owe you an e-Mail mate!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdl12976
hi all.
Dave i think you may have a big clue there.
The disagreement over the burial locations did not start until after the British exhumations of 1946.
So what happened in 1942.where these files examined by the Red Cross and accepted by them. and the acceptance passed to the British Authorities. who also accepted them.
If subsequently further field graves were found and not dealt with in the same manner, or maybe not examined by the Red Cross then it is very likely that any files submitted would not be accepted.
What is the possibility of the British Exhumations being in relation to these bodies ?
Is this what the Frenchman has ?
ivor
Is it possible then we are just reading to much into this and things were just so confused and records being bitted at by several differnt agencies that the confusion is simplt that.
I do think however that the Frenchman knows more than he is saying and possibly has the info required but for some reason doesnt want to share it with anybody.
regards
Dave
morning all.
It appears that in the Frenchman's Book he says that a number of British wounded were taken to the Hospital in the School at Calonne. O.K we know this, as we know that a number of British dead were buried in the field at the rear of the school. It has been my belief for some time that this is where Anthony would have been taken when picked up by the German Field Ambulance. If, for reasons which we do not know, he died here then he would have been buried with the others.
O.K. so far.
Now as i understand it the Field Grave clearances were carried out by the Local Council so we have been looking for files in Haverskirque. But does Calonne come under Haverskirque. Looking on Google maps it does not appear to do so. Have we been looking for Anthony's details in the wrong place. Where the files we want held at Calonne, and this is why any request for info re St Venant is not getting any where. a possibility.
ivor
St-Pol, Haverskerque, St-Venant and Calonne-sur-la-Lys are all separate administrative entities, with their own town mayors, town halls and councils. If we are looking for a man who died in Calonne, we should go to Calonne. The St-Venant Council (and M Faivre) will know nothng about him.
I hope this will clear up the current confusion.
John
Ivor, you may well have something here and i agree Calonne does not in my opinion come under St Venant it appears to be a different equivalent to our parishes ( dont know what the french call them im afraid).
hi.
Thank you John.Appreciated. A pity i did not think of it before. might make a difference. We know that there are several Unknowns in Calonne. A fresh line of enquiry. could be good.
ivor
The French word commune would be the English word 'parish' (without the religious connotation) or 'municipality'. Different commune, different mairie (town hall), maire (mayor) and conseil communal (council).
I might add that the VDK has already been checking their records for field hospitals in the Calonne ara, so far without result unfortunately. Field hospital found, but no trace of Anthony.
John
Hi again.
Jim in you post 444 you quote a date in June 42 as an acceptance date.it is a known fact that a number of British dead were buried behind the School/ Hospital at Calonne could this be the date that these graves were cleared. it would seem logical as we now know that Calonne has no connection with St Venant.
with regard to the cause of death being given as 'Died of wounds' that is a very generalised term, wounds as a result of the battle or wounds as a result of murder by S.S. as we are also aware happened. If a Dr witnessed such an act i can not see him being allowed to make a full report into cause of death. a one word entry Dead.
ivor
John.
I think we owe your friends in the V D K a great deal of thanks for their efforts on our behalf.
But for them to trace a man with no ''dog tags'' would be very difficult. As soon as Anthony died he really did become an unknown in the truest seance of the word.
While i know quite a lot about bodies, from the past, the Bog Bodies, Egyptian Mummies and Otzi the Ice man, who i have seen in the Museum at Bolzano, Italy.
If any of you are of a sensitive nature stop here.
I only have a sketchy knowledge of what we are dealing with here. I assume that the burials from the Hospital would be just the same as field burials no coffin. So i wonder, if, after 2 years would it be possible to establish flesh wounds etc. i know that the type of ground has a direct bearing on decomposition etc . I believe John that as a medical man you would have a much better knowledge than me.
ivor
Dave, Ivor, Jim, John. Thanks for your last few posts which are fascinating. I'm sorry that, although 'proprietor' of this thread I am absolutely out of my depth and eternally grateful for the effort you all continue to give to this topic. Although out of my depth and forever trailing in last place as far as knowledge is concerned, my interest has deepened as time has went on. What began as an inquisitive ''I wonder what happened to my uncle'', has widened into a search for a lost soul.
Whilst I think that the possibility of Anthony dying in hospital in Calonne is a sound one, I still find it hard to get away from the idea that if the Germans were as good as their word and took Anthony to hospital, it would have been likely that they would have taken him to a one in Saint Venant which may have been nearer.
RSM Goddard did, after all, say that he found Anthony on the canal bank 'near the village' and stated this to the Red Cross, also stating that he was taken prisoner in Saint Venant on the 27th May 1940. Without searching for a map of the area, I am unsure of the difference in distance between a Saint Venant hospital and one in Calonne.
In a way, it would be better if he did die in Calonne. It would give us new ground to cover and that important clue could be 'just around the corner'. It is doubtful that the bodies in Calonne would have been re-interred which is a pity because Anthony's belongings may have been put to one side like they did with the victims in Saint Venant. You never know, somewhere, there might be a haversack with a letter addressed to Anthony which would identify him. It's this sort of thing that keeps giving me hope.
Regards,
Tony
Ivor, re bodies after two years in the ground: it all depends on the soil. In the wet Lys area, I wouldn't expect to find much soft tissue left after two years. Wounds would only be obvious if there was bone damage.
Tony, Calonne may be a good option after all. The St-Venant hospital was in what one might call a debatable area, a bit 3 Pz Div, a bit SS Germania Regt. Calonne would have been in undisputed possession of 3 Pz, and moreover had a German military dressing station instead of [as well as] a French civvy hospital. I would think that a prisoner for safety reasons would preferably be taken to a military dressing station, unless he was really in a bad way and unlikely to escape, and the French hospital was closer.
As far as I know the British casualties in the St-Venant hospital [which doubled as an orphanage] were brought in by their mates or admitted themselves.
John
John, thanks for the expanation about communes etc.
Tony, afraid i cant help as much as Jim, John and Ivor all i can do is chuck ideas and suggestions in But i really hope you can find out more info on your uncles death mate.
Cheers
Dave
Mornin All.
Tony.Thank you for your post , but it is Jim and John who are the Info/contacts men. Like Dave i can only chuck ideas around. But sometimes you have to look at things from a different angle. Take the French Files.we seem to have assumed that the official 41/42 clearance was complete. But if you ask the question,was it ? then it opens up the ''well maybe it wasn't ''possibility with any later clearances not official.
It is similar with Calonne. We have been there and discussed the possibility of Anthony being buried there. But it wasn't till it was mentioned that the Local Council was responsible for the clearances that the idea '' OH, is Calonne under the same council as St Vennant? '' with the answer Drat no. so another door opens.
We have had the info all along but it only takes a word of phrase to open a link to something else.
John, thanks for the info re bodies i thought so but wasn't sure. So really the only hard evidence you would expect would be as you said bone damage or metallic evidence such as 'dog tags', regimental insignia etc. this, i assume, would have been the object of the British 1946 exercise. So if 'dog tags' had been removed for whatever reason or were not there in the first place. Then Id would be almost impossible unless they carried something personal with their name on.
Tony. while i believe that Calonne is the most likely resting place of Anthony, unless you could get authority to DNA test all the unknowns in Calonne i think the best we can hope for is a '' Buried Near This Spot'' marker.But that would be a great result.
ivor
Yes the DNA route may be the only way to be certain one way or another if indeed Anthony is buried at Calonne and i dont believe this is going to happen if for no other reason than the cost though there is a precedent in the WW1 mass grave being tested last year.
The only thing that would concern me is that according to the CSM Anthony was not badly hurt when he last saw him on the canal bank this suggests that either he was wounded again afterwards or alternativly the unthinkable that he was one of the murdered. Given the reputation of the Totenkoph division including there later actions there is always that chance.
Cheers now
Dave
SS Germania was active in St Venant itself and along the road to Haverskerque. The 2 DLI HQ area belonged exclusively to 3 Pz Div. So the chances that Anthony was murdered on the spot seem to be negligible. But if he was moved to a dressing station west of the 3 Pz Div area, it would be a distinct possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdl12976
John
Hi Dave.
I too doubt that permission would be obtained, even if privately funded, for the DNA tests.
Your second point. we did discuss this some time ago with regard to the RSM being wrong, but he was an experienced soldier and i doubt it. The only concern i had was the neck wound being more severe than thought. When RSM Goddard ask if they could take Anthony with them he was told there was a Field Ambulance operating nearby and they would deal with it.a short time later Goddard spoke to some stretcher bearers presumably telling them where Anthony was, so as a non walking wounded i have very little doubt that he would have been picked up and taken to, as i believe, Calonne.
I read,somewhere, that the German's did not tend to use Local Hospitals, preferring to set up their own facilities in Schools or other large buildings possibly because they were better equipped or maybe even to avoid disruption to the local system.
With regard to the mystery of Anthony's death. Well murder is not out of the question I know of at least one particular nasty piece of SS garbage named, i think it was DIX, who was known to have committed a large number of murders in the area around this time. Sadly he was never to stand trial as he unfortunately got himself killed some time later. So i think this has to have a great deal of consideration. I guess the only way we can know for certain is if autopsies done in 41/42 show bullet wounds to the head.
These files must be somewhere ?.
ivor
Here is the SS VT Divisions movements for those interestd.
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mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0cm; mso-para-margin-right:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> SS Verfügungsdivision May 1940
The Battle of Aire (9º part).
German Flank Guard Actions During the 1940 French Campaign.
by B. H. Friesen.
Prisoner interrogations strongly indicated that another French armor force was moving west from Bethune. Reconnaissance patrols confirmed this. Hausser believed that this was the time to commit the entire Regiment “Germania.” He directed the regiment to deploy north and south of Auchy and prepare to conduct a movement to contact to the east (see Map 5).
The regiment began moving at 1400 hours and met the enemy tanks at the heights of St. Hilaire. This was the last of the French armor and the force was too small to overpower a motorized regiment supported by the division’s antitank battalion. The tanks quickly lost their momentum and began to withdraw. The Regiment “Germania” pursued them, pushing the enemy back along the entire front in a great sweeping action. The antitank units destroyed many French tanks. The regiment pushed all enemy forces it did not capture or destroy back to the canal by nightfall.
The enemy tried to force penetrations into the division and corps flank in three separate areas. The SS V Division halted and repulsed him on each occasion. The Germans destroyed over 60 armored vehicles and captured close to 4,000 enemy soldiers.
Source: Armor Magazine. Jan – Feb 1994.
On 24 May, regiments of the division succeeded in crossing the La Bassee Canal. The regiment on the right flank captures St. Venant while the reconnaissance detachment advances towards Allouagne. New reconnaissance is sent forward. Two reconnaissance parties had to advance in the direction of Estaires: one through Bethune. The other through St. Venant. While attempting to cross the bridge to the north of Bethune, the first party is subjected to enemy fire. One armored vehicle falls into a ditch, and motorcyclists are forced to dismount and engage the enemy.
The second reconnaissance party, after Passing St. Venant at 2:00 PM in the direction of Merville, was already nearing the latter, when suddenly enemy tanks had cut off its retreat. Only one of the two armored vehicles succeeded in breaking through to the rear. At 5:30 PM this reconnaissance party reports that it is encircled by the enemy. The 2d Company, reinforced by antitank guns, is sent to its rescue.
At the same time the British, moving through Merville in the southwestern direction, executes tank attack against the German infantry. After a somewhat critical situation, the British attack was repulsed. Also the 2d Company, moving north of the Lys Canal, runs against British tanks. Due to the fact that the elements of the divisions retired at nightfall back across the canal, the 2d Company was also compelled to retreat. The encircled reconnaissance party reported by radio that during the night it will attempt to break through.
The next morning the reconnaissance detachment was moved to Ham. A report was received from the encircled party. to the effect that it was unable to break through, but up to 9:30 AM it nevertheless continued to communicate by radio on all enemy movements in the vicinity of Merville. Then the contact ceased. This party was captured by the British.
Source: Motorized Reconnaissance Detachment in Combat in Flanders. By Wim Brandt (SS AA VT CO). Militar Wochenblatt.
Re: Verfügungsdivision May 1940
On May 27, the SS-VT started its attack with the SS Germania to the right and the SS Der Fuhrer to the left; the SS AA pressed forward between the Der Fuhrer's I. and III. Battalions. The densely wooded terrain enabled the British to fight effectively against this attack; also helped by the well-constructed field fortifications.
On the attack's right wing, sharpshooters from the Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment wreaked havoc upon the SS Germania; nevertheless the SS unit made subtantial progress and by the end of the day had advanced as far as the town of Haverskesque. Meanwhile the SS Der Fuhrer had pushed the enemy back through the Bois D'Amont reaching the Canal de Nieppe.
On May 28, due to the Nieppe Forest was now situated in a salient vulnerable to isolation and encirclement, the BEF evacuated all its force from the area.
While these SS units saw action in the Nieppe Forest, the SS Deutschland marched on Merville and on May 27, confronted a fresh line of British forces arrayed along the Lys Canal. After softening the enemy positions with artillery fire the III. Battalion launched its assault driving the British out of this area. Later in the day the two others battalions were on the other side of the waterway establishing bridgeheads for other german forces.
Source: SS Das Reich. The history of the of the Second SS Division 1939 -1945. Gregory L. Matson. Chapter 4 The West.
I do have the movements of the SS TK for the dates as well if anyone is interested, most of which is the same as the diary earlier spoken about on here.
For those interested: here is the statement made post-war by the commander of SS Germania, Karl Demelhuber.
Thanks for the quotes, Dave. Some caution is advisable, though. The second quote, for example, twice mentions British/enemy tanks - there were none, only bren carriers, and they were not the reason for the German retreat to the Aire Canal. There had been French tank detachments along the Aire Canal to protect the bridges leading to St-Venant, but these had all gone by then.
John
Appreciate that John, a bit like the media today i reckon anything on tracks is called a tank no matter how big or small mainly because the writer knows nothing about armoured vehicles and does even less research before writing.
Cheers
Dave
Err hello again.
in my earlier post i mentioned odd words or phrases creating a link. wweellll i just hit myself with one. hmmmm
Now, there are 14 Unknowns in Calonne cemetery, i believe Anthony is one of them.
Accepting RSM's report that Anthony's wounds were not serious so not life threatening. So if he was murdered by the SS, was he the only one. It would be quite interesting to know how many of the 14 have bullet wounds to the head.
Can we get a line on the 41/42 files ?
ivor
Thanks again, Ivor,
Regarding the DNA test. This is not as 'pie in the sky' as it seems. A few weeks ago I watched a TV programme about a WW1 burial site. Ironically, it was one of those nights when every ten minutes the phone rang and I kept losing the thread of the programme. Although I missed a lot of detail, I learned that there was a graveyard in France where they (CWGC I think) were going to exhume the bodies and offer relatives the chance obtain identification by DNA. I'm sure there had been a disappointing response.
I think the DNA test may be possible only because of the time that had elapsed between the deaths and the exhumations. At the moment, this would not be possible for 1940 but I'm sure there will be an opportunity when the time scale allows.
If anyone saw this programme and can enlarge on it, I would be pleased to hear from them.
Tony.
Hello ,
You all have been very busy indeed and now you have me thinking tell me what you think of this
During my research into the field grave lists a lot of people will have wondered why bother as Anthony is unknown so will not feature.The aim of the research has been to secure the buriel place of another 2 DLI casualty who died of wounds on the same day as mentioned Syd Walt died on May 29th he does not feature in any of the known field graves.Would it be fair to assume he has died in a hospital? Following his death he has been taken to the cemetery direct? If the German War Graves Commision has a record of Syd Walt would they have a record of other unknown soldiers buried the same day you see there are no missing unknowns from the Royal Berks or Royal Welch for the 29th May 1940. Whilst I have to check the Royal Artillery Unit present could this be a way forward?
Best
Jim
Jim, to be honest Anthony may have died in hospital or he may even have been killed where he lay on the canal bank or as stated earlier he could have been one of the murdered in hospital at Calonne. Untill we find some evidence of if he was even moved to hospital i cant see us proving anything sadly.
There is a lot of records from the Royal Berks missing mate (including the war diary for the time which is not shown anywhere on the Wardrobe site). I can only assume it was lost/destroyed/damaged so badly as to be unreadable at some point during the campaign or evacuation.
The trouble with the artillery conection is that you will have to look at not only Brigade but also Divisional artillery units and possibly even Corps level but good luck to you in that. Dont forget mate there may well have been French artillery within range as well.
Cheers
Dave
Hello Dave,
I do not doubt for one minute the task ahead but if Anthony died on that Canal bank he is either one of those `inconnu` in the field graves which I am beginning to doubt by their position in relation to the canal bank,or has been suggested the Germans were good as their word and he died in a hospital. The Artillery etc isnt such a big problem as you may think the units involved are well known and many lie within the cemetery. Anthony has a known date of death,a single day,not an estimated between dates as the majority seem to have which indicates to me as I have said all along there was a witness,the battle on the 29th was over by two days the DLI scattered .The witness whoever he was knew Anthony so he wasnt a soldier from another regiment he was a Durham (or his death details are recorded elsewhere and for some reason being kept from public view? Unlikely as the war crimes feature roasting alive of British PoWs and that is HORRIFIC).There was no doubt to the British that Anthony was dead he wasnt placed on the missing men file he was mard as DEAD again indicating a witness.
Pte Syd Walt is buried in St Venant he died of wounds (confirmed not assumed) on the 29th also presumably recorded by the Germans. If the Germans have two British deaths (Not French Anthony could still talk and I assume he would have spoken and be in British battledress) recorded on the 29th May who is the other? There are no more recorded in the area of the action and more importantly as we do not have as yet the location of his burial have we an unknown headstone with a date of death inscribed 29th May 1940 in one of the local cemeteries? We know already how many unknowns there are but not whats inscribed on their stones.
All ifs buts and what ifs but we can second guess Anthonys demises until eternity but will we find him with this enquiry. If it turns out there isnt a second burial with Syd Walt then that theory is gone but if there is then I for one would be interested in how/who tht could be:-)
Best Wishes
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdl12976
good morning all
according to a CWGC search Sid Walt is buried in St Venant Community Cemetery. Plot 3 Row A, Grave 20.
From what we now know, that would seem to indicate that he was in a grave cleared by the St Venant Local Council.
I think it very doubtful that, if he died elsewhere he would have been moved to another location.
Do you have or can you get hold of the list of field graves for the Calonne area. Particularly the School Field i Think this is here we should take a look, especially as we know it was cleared under the 41/42 clearances then the files should have been accepted, therefore they must be kept somewhere. I think we need to know how many unknowns were in that field.
With regard to proof that he was taken to Calonne by the German's.
We have evidence from the Frenchman's book that British wounded were taken there, we have evidence from RSM Goddard that he was told that the field unit, which we believe operated from there, would deal with Anthony, and we have evidence again from RSM that he informed a party of stretcher bearers of Anthony's location.
On the basis of the above i believe we would have '' Reasonable Cause To Believe '' that Anthony was taken there.
Whilst i am not sure, i think it possible that, even on it's own, this just might be sufficient to request an investigation.
ivor
Jim, All you say is perfectly logical and i believe you may be on the right track mate, your statement "or his death details are recorded elsewhere and for some reason being kept from public view?" it is my belief there is a lot being hidden for some reason including the POSSIBILITY that the war diary for the Royal Berks for this time may be being kept from the public for some reason, this however is conjecture and i have no evidence that this is the case though an e-mail i sent to the Wardrobe before i joined this forum about my Dad has never been replied to (unless it has disapeared into an internet black hole and i have checked the spam folder every day).
Cheers now
Dave
hi.
looking further at Calonne i find that there are 3 RWF buried there. Now i was not aware that RWF had been involved in a fire fight in Calonne. so how did they come to be there, it they were wounded in the St Venant/St Floris area.
The only reasonable explanation is, taken there by the German's, this further strengthens my belief that Anthony would also have been taken there. Further backing for '' Reasonable Cause ''.
I seriously believe that we need to have a closer look at this school field.
ivor
Ivor i think you may be on to something here mate.
The cemetry info says.
The Communal Cemetery surrounds the church which is in the middle of the village. The Commonwealth war graves are in four plots: one containing 7 burials from the Second World War, one containing 13 burials from the Second World War, one containing a single burial from the First World War, and finally a plot containing 3 burials from the Second World War and 1 burial from the First World War.
This makes 23 2nd WW burials yet only 11 are named i would assume that means the other 12 were unidentified when reintered later, given as you say the 3 RWF burials and the fact that the RWF were not involved at Calonne it would be interesting to know morwe about these 12 as i would suspect maybe Anthony was one of them.
Dave.
Edited to add this link http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries...nesurlalys.htm
So according to this site 2 of the unknowns are Manchester Regiment and 1 was Field Artillery so that still leaves 9 possibilites for Anthony.
Please bear in mind that on the 24th D Coy took a wrong turning and went southwest instead of northwest to St-Floris. They ran into a German ambush and had to retreat to Calonne before going on to St-Floris. No doubt their casualties were left in Calonne.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
John