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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hi all.
once again good work guys.
i have also been digging in various directions and come up with some interesting stuff. if you recall i wanted to find out more about the bigger picture, not just RWF/2DLI. on the south side of the Lys was the 2/5 west yorks which i will come back to. on the north in the forest were 9RNF. 6 Y&L and 4 and 5 Royal West Kents. one of which was supposed to be relieving our guys. and it would seem from your missing chap the 1/5 E Surrey.and i haven't really looked very hard. quit a concentration of troops.
now the 2/5 w Yorks in post 382 i linked a document which stated that late on 23/05 they were still holding part of Robecq.but 2 Company's had been detached 1 to Calonne and 1 to St Floris.
I can understand sending a Co to Calonne. it was a major road jct, and Bgd Hq was there.in the link (382) where there is a ref to Hq moving to Merville it mentions covering troops.I think it reasonable to assume these were 2/5 W.Y.
Now let us return to St Floris. why was it so important that it justified a whole Co to defend it, i could understand them being sent to St Venant to defend the bridge, but there does not seem to be anything at St Floris of strategic importance. unless, Hmmm Bridging Equipment. German Bridging Equipment captured by RWF. another interesting question arises here. there is no mention of 2/5 in the RWF WD. but if 2 DLI was given the task then surely the fact that they relieved 2/5 would have been recorded.
my next point is. in link (382) it states that Haverskirque was in German hands on the 24th. On 25th the RWF. WD. tells of a party of German Engineers traveling towards St Venant from direction of Haverskirque. Hmmmm.
this link is not directly concerned with our quest but might make some interesting bedtime reading, you might already know about it
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/22...st-1940-a.html
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
teecee.
no problem mate.
it seems odd that you come back to St Venant he same time as i get back to St Floris. as you have probably gathered i have expanded my search and found some interesting stuff, but only as far as the forest to the north and Robecq in the south.
one of the main points being the explanation why German Engineers were heading to St Venant from Haverskirque on 25th (RWF. WD ). information seems to point to it being taken on 24th. this brings me right back to the Bridging stuff at St Floris.
With regard to Anthony's location, we know from evidence it was on the canal bank. that would seem to indicate that the POW's where being marched off along the canal, not a road. but as to where we still really have no idea. As far as hospitals are concerned, i still believe that he would have been taken to the one at Calonne. There are some 14 unknowns buried there.
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
just found this, interesting. the engineers were probably the 228 field unit
''On the 22nd May 137th Brigade which by now consisted of 2/5th West Yorks, Don Battalion and some engineers spent the day preparing defences on the road and rail bridges, preparing bridges for demolition and fortifying the villages behind the canal line.
On the 23rd May 32nd Field Regiment arrived and deployed near Neuf Berquin to support 137th Brigade. The Germans crossed the canal in the 137th Brigades sector in the morning and eventually took the high ground at Morbecque and pushed deep into the Foret de Neippe cutting off the 2/5th West Yorks from Brigade HQ. The Germans succeeded in turning the flanks of the battalions companies on the canal line forcing the battalion to withdraw to a new line along the road between Robecq and Calonne.
By the 24th May 2/5th West Yorks had been driven back from the canal but were holding the Germans up at Calonne with the help of three French tanks. Later during the afternoon as a result of a counter attack to the north of the battalions positions the Germans withdrew.
On the 25th May 2/5th West Yorks were relieved by 2nd Division and withdrew into reserve at St. Floris.
On the 28th May 137th Brigade moved to the Dunkirk perimeter via Berthem and Poperinghe where they stayed for the night''.
ivor
On the 24th May the SS-Verfügungs-Division had taken St Venant and then, despite being ordered to halt, continued their advance the following day.
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
john.
re the stop order. scroll down to the sentence just above the pic of the RWF memorial
http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
hi all.
as you may recall i have been unhappy with some of the dates differing between accounts. but before i get too carried away with what i appear to have found. i would like confirmation of the following if you don't mind
St Floris. Lt Garnett DOD 23/05/40
Robecq. 4189609 Jones.W.H. DOD 23/05/40.
watch this space.
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hello,
The following is from the RED DRAGON page 28. The carrier platoon under Second LT J Garnett led the way to St Floris with "C" company following on foot.Messages were soon coming back to say that the village was in the hands of the enemy, but "C" company continued to advance and at the cost of a few casualties, cleared the village and took several prisoners. Continuing along the road to ST Venant, the carrier platoon came under accurate fire from German anti tank guns and the two leading carriers were knocked out with the loss of both their crews. Among those killed was the the Platoon Commander , Second LT Garnett whose proved efficiency was a grievous loss to the Battalion.
Regards R B D
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hello,
From the Red Dragon page 30. "B" company were charged with clearing Robecq but by 11-00 hrs "B" company ceased to exist. The following comes from the W W 2 book Casualties of the Royal Welch Fusiliers. ROBECQ COMMUNAL CEMETERY Jones Walter Henry 4189609 !st Battalion R W F 23 to 26th of May 1940,Age 26 Son of Thomas & Martha
husband of Rosina Jones of Forest Gate Essex Grave 18.
Regards R B D
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
hi all.
thanks for the info Brian.
what follows is quite difficult as i have to collate info from several sources. i know it is not directly concerned with our quest, but it might just clear up some of the discrepancies with the dates.
first. the dates of the death of 2nd Lt Garnett. his grave in St Floris together with 6 other RWF men clearly specifies 23rd
http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288
therefore, unless CWGC has made a mistake with the 7 men, then RWF/2DLI must have reached Sf Floris on 23rd. the same applies to the Fusilier buried in Robecq
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1
this record states clearly 23rd.
Further to this, i think it was YDG that states that they arrived at Calonne by M.T. B Co to proceed to Robecq A,C and D towards St Floris behind the carriers. Also we must remember that St Venant was not their primary task. That was the bridges at Robecq. They only fell back to St Venant when they could not reach their objective.Meanwhile sometime on 24th 2/5 WY had fallen back to defend St Floris and Calonne where we are told they were holding the Germans.if RWF/2DLI had arrived on 24th things may have been a bit different.
This could also explain why Bde HQ pulled back to Merville on 23rd. as part of the planned withdrawal to the Canal Line.
looking at RWF WD it states the comms were cut with B Co on 26th but from the CWGC dates of the deaths are 23rd to 25th. again the WD for 27th has in red possibly 26th.
it appears to me that an error in the WD date has occurred some time prior to 22nd and has been continued.
i hope this makes sense and i am not out of order.
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vori101
hi all.
thanks for the info Brian.
what follows is quite difficult as i have to collate info from several sources. i know it is not directly concerned with our quest, but it might just clear up some of the discrepancies with the dates.
first. the dates of the death of 2nd Lt Garnett. his grave in St Floris together with 6 other RWF men clearly specifies 23rd
http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288
therefore, unless CWGC has made a mistake with the 7 men, then RWF/2DLI must have reached Sf Floris on 23rd. the same applies to the Fusilier buried in Robecq
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1
this record states clearly 23rd.
Further to this, i think it was YDG that states that they arrived at Calonne by M.T. B Co to proceed to Robecq A,C and D towards St Floris behind the carriers. Also we must remember that St Venant was not their primary task. That was the bridges at Robecq. They only fell back to St Venant when they could not reach their objective.Meanwhile sometime on 24th 2/5 WY had fallen back to defend St Floris and Calonne where we are told they were holding the Germans.if RWF/2DLI had arrived on 24th things may have been a bit different.
This could also explain why Bde HQ pulled back to Merville on 23rd. as part of the planned withdrawal to the Canal Line.
looking at RWF WD it states the comms were cut with B Co on 26th but from the CWGC dates of the deaths are 23rd to 25th. again the WD for 27th has in red possibly 26th.
it appears to me that an error in the WD date has occurred some time prior to 22nd and has been continued.
i hope this makes sense and i am not out of order.
ivor
Morning Ivor,
Just a word of caution do not rely on the CWGC dates of death they are often approximate dates. I am working my way through a list of personnel found in a mass grave,most are buried at St Venant,yet a lot of the dates appear to be `between` with some covering a 20-30 day period. One case,which I clarified with John,dealt with a young soldier from the Royal Berkshires buried at St Venant the CWGC have a date of death of 10th May 1940.The Royal Berkshires would have been no where near St Venant at the time which raises more questions than I have answers for.
Best
Jim
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
hi folks.
Jim. thanks for the warning, but in this case i do not believe them wrong.If we accept that RWF.WD is one day out and further evidence of this is that there is evidence from German accounts the the attack started on 27th not 28th then the dates 23rd to 25th fit exactly with the WD. when the original error occurred who knows , it may have been when they pulled back from the Dyle. If the person responsible for the diary had been killed then whoever took over may have mistaken the date.
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
john.
is there anything of interest in this as it refers to 22nd and appears to come from M Faivre.
http://www.lechodelalys.fr/Actualite...s_bombes.shtml
another one
http://storage.canalblog.com/31/82/731802/53024408.pdf
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Not really interesting, Ivor. The first article concerns the bombing of St Venent by the Luiftwaffe on the 22nd. The second article is a short review of the fighting, as taken from M Faivre's book. Nothing we didn't know already.
John
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
You may recall some time ago I posted in regard to an `oral` account of the battle seen from 2DLI HQ Companys perspective held at the IWM which unfortunately is`nt available online at present (or the near future for that case) so I do not know if this will come as good or bad news.Anyway I have found a second `oral` account the bad news is it too is at the IWM and is `unavailable` online. What it contains is an account from Pte Fred Cottier 2nd DLI the IWM lists this amongst the topics covered in the interview/account
Quote:
...attack on Headquarters Company in graveyard; near attack on asylum; evacuation of patients from asylum; shelling from Germans; events in Battalion Headquarters; dispatch taken to brigade; events on return journey; capture of Battalion and Brigade Headquarters; start of period without unit; reaction to situation; story of Bugle Major Mason; activities and events during retreat to Dunkirk;....
Frustrating is`nt it!
Quote:
<DT>Catalogue number </DT><DD>
</DD><DT>Subject period </DT><DD>Second World War</DD><DT>Production date </DT><DD>1991</DD><DT>Alternative Names </DT><DD>
- object category: IWM interview
</DD><DT>Creator </DT><DD>
- IWM (Production company)
- Cottier, Frederick Edwin (interviewee/speaker)
- Thistlethwaite, Chris (recorder)
</DD><DT>Category sound</DT>
Best
Jim
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
"Frustrating" doesn't even come close, Jim. Two eyewitness accounts, and even from HQ Coy, and no way of getting at them.
Would the IWM be more inclined to assist if they knew we need this material to try and bring an old soldier in from the cold? But then, I assume you told them.
There must be someone who knows someone who knows a brass hat at the IWM.
John
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Baconwallah
"Frustrating" doesn't even come close, Jim. Two eyewitness accounts, and even from HQ Coy, and no way of getting at them.
Would the IWM be more inclined to assist if they knew we need this material to try and bring an old soldier in from the cold? But then, I assume you told them.
There must be someone who knows someone who knows a brass hat at the IWM.
John
Shortly after posting I have received some very encouraging news regarding the recordings they are still not available online from the IWM but and this will not be confirmed until Friday at the earliest but.............I may yet have access through Durhams `Listen to the Soldier Project` Fingers crossed everyone!
Best Wishes
Jim
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Just don`t know what to say anymore,Shot down in flames again!!!
Quote:
Thank you for your email
I am very sorry but at the moment you cannot access the 'Listen to the Soldier' collection at the Record Office. There has been problems with the system, which is provided by the Imperial War Museum. We have had contact with them about the problem, but as yet it has not been solved.
It may help if you are able to contact IWM to let them know you want to access the audio files. It is possible that they may be able to suggest an alternative way.
Yours sincerely
Liz Bregazzi
County Archivist
Best
Jim:arghh:
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hi All.
As some of you may recall I wanted to know what was going on in the area when our guy’s arrived. I think I now have a pretty good idea.
Prior to the 23rd the Bassee Canal line was being held to the north and south of Robecq by 137 Bgd which was mainly the 2/5 West Yorkshire’s and a French unit, which was withdrawn, leaving a gap at Robecq. On the 22nd there is a report that, I believe it was 228 Field Co R.E. was mineing the bridges and strengthening defences behind the Canal line.
It is known that on 23rd the German’s had crossed the Canal and where in St Venant with patrols heading towards Merville. Major Ellis in his The War In France and Flanders 1939 – 1940 (Ch9) states that 2/5 had sent a Co to Calonne and one to St Floris to protect the flank of this incursion. The remainder of 2/5 is still recorded as being in Robecq.
This would appear to be the situation when 1RWF/2DLI (6th Bgd) arrived as I believe also on the 23rd
.As far as I am aware the objectives for the 6th were the bridges at Robecq and also they were to be defended to the last man. B Co RWF where able to fight their way into Robecq. but the others were unable to gain their objectives due to the German’s presence in prepared defences. So they fell back to St Floris. It was only at the intervention of Col Harrison that they were in St Venant at all. I can find no indication that St Venant was ever part of the defensive strategy. However St Floris was. Odd.
It is recorded, again by Major Ellis that the 2/5 WY who where holding the German’s at Calonne were relieved by 2nd Div and withdrew to reserve at St Floris?
Also I have posted a link to a document which would appear to show that on 24th Haverskirque was in German hands. This would account for the entry in the RWF WD of the party of engineers approaching St Venant from that direction. This would make the St Venant bridge a very dangerous crossing point, as the RWF HQ troops found.
Again it is recorded that 2/5 withdrew from St Floris and the RWF/2DLI were not made aware of this leaving them exposed.
All the above has been obtained from various sources on the web. But it raises a few interesting points.
First, why St Floris. I can understand it from the point of view of defending the flank of the German break through. But to send troops to there as reserve from Calonne when the R.V was the forest surely the most obvious route would have been the Calonne to Merville Rd.
I said very early on in this investigation that I thought that St Floris might hold the key. What I have found seems to reinforce this belief.
Second. the stop order of 24th was not ordered by Hitler, he just confirmed an order by Von Runstead. This order only referred to the tank units and the purpose was to allow the other mechanised units to catch up. but not all units obeyed it. Those that fell back did so for repair etc. however a large no of the German High Command were unhappy with the way the tanks were operating as independent units far ahead of the infantry. It was also felt that there was a risk using tanks in this final stage of this part of the operation as the mopping up was better suited to the infantry and the tanks were needed for the next phase of the operation.
Several other points have arisen, but these need further digging.
In conclusion, while this does not move our search any further foreword it might just indicate that there is some significance to St Floris that we are not aware of.
Ivor.
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
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mso-para-margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi folks i have been looking at this with interest since last Saturday and i would like to throw some first hand snippets into the thread, the reason being i was talking to my Father who was 1st Bn Royal Berks at this time and he told me the following story even though it really has no bearing on the OP, s question.
"I was part of a group guarding a crossroads where we were expecting the Germans to cross this was close to a canal with a footbridge. On the canal was a large boat which we searched in case there was Germans hiding or using it. We had not been there long when we were hit by an artillery strike which killed 7 men and wounded several others including me when i was in the area last year on a battlefield tour i thought of looking for my mate Jonno,s grave but i didn’t know where to start or if i would be able to find it. My mates name was Peter Joynson and he died in my arms and i buried him by the side of the crossroads putting his rifle at the grave with his helmet and dog tags on the butt. A short while later young artillery FOO came running up in tears saying im so sorry but this is the location they gave me for German positions it seems we had been hit by our own artillery. When i eventually got back to England i was placed in a hospital in Warwick and spoke to the nurses asking if they knew Jonno,s parents who i thought lived very near to the hospital (his father was Brigadier retired Laurence Bright Joynson) one of them knew where the house was and i asked them to ask Jonno,s parents to come and see me. When they arrived i told them what had happened to there son for which they thanked me".
After this i went home and checked the WGC web site where i found Jonno,s details he was at some point reburied in Haverskque British Cemetery Row EE Grave 12
Jonno,s details are as follows.
Peter Joyson
Rank Lance corporal
Service no 5336849
Died 25/5/1940
Age 19
Son of Laurence Bright Joyson and Ethel Vera Joynson of Warwick.
Dad says the crossroads was NOT in a town but was very close to the canal.
I intend to ask Dad a few more questions soon but at 94 he isnt keen on talking to much about those days (understanable).
Now a question for the forum.
Does anyone know where the Berks Bn HQ was as this would help place the crossroads since all being well i intend to take Dad to the area so he can say Goodbye to his mate and place a wreath on the grave as he has asked.
From looking a the google map there is not many crossroads that fit the criteria (one such is just to the North of the St venant Bridge on the road to Haverskque), however from the posts on here this was not the Royal Berks area unless of course they were still advancing to retake the area on the morning of the 25th.
Speaking of the Royal berks HQ earlier it the thread a link was posted to some prisoners outside a barn and farm . I know the HQ was captured on the 27th by the Germans could this phots be of the Berks HQ , i guess we may never know.
I hope you find this first hand account of the time interesting and sorry for going off the OP,s thread.
Cheers
Dave Cooke
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hi Dave
I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to get involved in this quest. Although it was originated by me, I am happy to say that I play the smallest part of all who have posted or have taken an interest. Happy, because others have a far superior knowledge to mine.
If you've read much of this thread you will have noticed that John (Baconwallah) and Jim (Verrieres) have kept the whole thing afloat since the summer and continue to do so. Ivor (Vori101) chips in regularly with all sorts of thought provoking stuff, and quite a few others have made good contributions.
I am certain that in a day or so, someone will identify the Berks Bn HQ or give you some good information.
Thanks again for your interest.
Tony
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Welcome to the Forum, Dave.
Attached an annotated screendump from Google Earth.
The photo of the prisoners showed Royal Welch, not Royal Berks, as far as I know.
John
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
hi Dave.
may i also add my welcome, and thank you for the info. i can appreciate the fact that you father doesn't want to talk about those times. but to hear from someone who was there is absolutely remarkable and brings, to me at least, a sense of reality of what was happening. I have read a great deal of stuff about this time but your fathers words are of greater importance than any words written years later.
thanks again for the info which i find very interesting.
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
good morning John.
I think we have met his guy before but i don't remember this article. any thoughts on the translation ?.
http://www.worcestershireregiment.co...an_h_kallmeyer
seems he was in St Venant 24th ?
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Bore da Ivor,
We may have met him, but he is not on my lists of Germania officers and during the 27th attack was on the far left, beyond the Berks. What he tells about the advance of the 23rd we know already.
The translations provided on the page are atrocious. Anyone translating "Panzerdeckungslöcher" (holes dug to provide cover from tanks) as "Armoured holes in the budget" ought to be shot.
John
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Thanks for the welcome guys, John thanks for the map do you know what date is the Berks positions from mate please ?. knowing this makes locating the crossroads far easier, however there doesnt appear to be a crossroads as such close to the footbridge and it may be that it was only a fork, after all Dad is 94 and his memory may not be totally accurate.
You wont find Horst Kallmeyer in the officers list of the period mate he was only a Lanser not becoming an officer till i think 1943. I do agree the translation leaves a lot to be desired but to be fair some of the origional diary looks as though it was unreadable judging by the question marks etc.
Interesting the photo of the Soldier on the canal bank i suspect there would have been qiuite a lot of casualties on the bank. I have to say i still cant get my head around the two HQ,s being right next to each other i would have thought that although it would be good for mutual defence it would also be to easy to take both out with one good artillery barrage. I tend to agree with an earlier post that the farm on the corner was the likely HQ of the DLI unless there was another farm on the other side of the road now occupierd by a more modern building and a car park.
Cheers now
Dave
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
The 23rd or 25th (away from my archives till Friday night so cannot check). The crossroads is very likely the T about 70 yds west of the footbridge, opposite the Ferme Boulet.
John
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Thanks again John that was my feeling if it was there ought to be some ground marks from the artillery explosions unless ploughing has taken them all out.
Somwhere further back in the thread i seem to recall it was postulated that Tonys uncle may have been killed at the farm here the only way i can think of that happening was if the Germans just maybe had an aid station around there after they captured the area and he was taken there by the medics/stretcher bearers from where he was found on the canal bank, sorry if this has been discussed before and i may have got it all wrong.
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
A good suggestion, Dave, and one which has been considered here already. There was an aid post at Ferme Boulet. I think the identification is unlikely, though, as it would have meant that the Germans transported a wounded prisoner right across their LoC to an aid post outside 3 Pz Div area. Moreover, the man at Ferme Boulet was murdered at noon, at about the same time that 2 DLI HQ was overrun and Anthony was seen and made comfortable on the canal bank.
You mentioned the two HQs (DLI and RWF) being close to each other. The RWF HQ initially was in a house on the south side of St Venant and was moved to a spot close to the DLI on Sunday 26th when it became untenable as a result of enemy shelling.
"While the CO was away with the Battalion IO [visiting 1 Berks HQ, looking for maps of the area] the enemy started a heavy shelling of Battalion Headquarters. This was hardly surprising in view of all the activities taking place around it and of its proximity to the front line. For a time, most of the shells went safely over to bury themselves about 50 yards in rear in a soft field. At length the ramshackle building received a direct hit and partially collapsed. Astonishingly few casualties were caused, most of the occupants crawling out, covered with dust and somewhat shaken, but otherwise unhurt. Headquarters was temporarily moved to the shelter of a deep roadside ditch. The CO now returned and at once set forth again to reconnoitre a new position for Battalion Headquarters. Suitable positions, giving a good view forward, were few and the choice ultimately fell upon a cemetery, back near the Bourne Canal, to which place the second in command was ordered to move Headquarters forthwith.
The cemetery was an oblong enclosure very full of ornate tombstones. At the northern end a gateway gave access from a metalled road which ran along the southern bank of the Bourne [Lys] Canal. On this road, about a hundred yards to the east, stood a farm which was occupied by the DLI Battalion HQ. To the west of the cemetery gate, at a distance of about a hundred and fifty yards, the canal road joined a main road running north and south and which here crossed the canal at bridge ‘E ’. The northernmost houses of St-Venant straggled on either side of the main road as far as bridge ‘E’. Between these houses and the cemetery there was a copse, the floor of which was chiefly swamp."
John
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
That was my feeling it would not have been logical to have moved him all that way past as i understand it two hospitals in St Venant and possibly at least one unit first aid post and of course the timeings make it impossible.
Another snippet from Dad, he spent his 21st birthday (24th October) in a bunker on the Belgium border just outside a town called Mouchin North of Orchies. At some point his young officer came to him and gave him a small bottle of whisky saying "happy birthday Cooke but dont get caught with it". He also told me that during the retreat they stopped the night in a Chateu where in the cellar they found a large cask of Brandy which they promptly drank despite being ordered to leave it in case it was poisoned (apparently the locals did this sort of thing hoping to catch the Germans out). Realising the orderly Officer/Sgt would notice they filled it back up, i shall leave you to guess what hey filled it with but they were hoping some German Officers would drink some of it in his words " we though it would be bloody funny Germans drinking British ****" Thats exactly as Dad told it.
I hope to go with Dad to his mates grave next year as he wants to place a wreath on it and say a proper goodbye, i just hope at 94 he is fit enough to manage the trip.
Cheers gang.
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Sorry to divert this but should we make progress with Pte Corkhill any dealings with the CWGC may give some insight into the battle ahead in actually getting any findings officially acknowledged.You may recall the post refering the mass grave containing a Gnr Barlow whose name is subsequently missing from other casualty lists with the CWGC eventually listing him as `No known grave` commemorated on the Dunkirk memorial? Well heres their reply having been sent the grave photograph and the official list from the Mayors office at St Venant......
Quote:
Thank you for your e-mail of 6th November 2012 regarding Gunner William Alfred Barlow, commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial.
The Commission does not hold any details regarding any possible place of burial for Gunner Barlow. There are 177 unknown burials of the Second World War in St. Venant Communal Cemetery, and it is possible that Gunner Barlow may be one of these, but there is no evidence to prove that this is the case.
Army Graves Concentration Units would have had the responsibility of removing remains from field grave sites for reburial into a permanent place of burial. As the work of these units predates the involvement of the Commission with the Second World War graves at St. Venant Communal Cemetery, we do not hold any maps or details regarding battlefield clearance or any mass field graves found in the local area.
Attempts were also made by these units to identify remains of individual casualties, but this would have been difficult in areas which had been previously been occupied by the enemy years before.
Gunner Barlow is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial as his grave could not be identified. The Commission does not have information on the circumstances of death and initial disposal of remains for servicemen and women with no known grave.
Yours sincerely
Paul Davis
Enquiries Administrator
Commonwealth War Graves Commission
To be brutely honest it was common sense to assume they held no record or further information on Gnr Barlow that was the point of my e-mail to alert them of the fact that there does exist with the Mayors Office another more detailed casualty list. My reply is...
Quote:
Thank you Mr Davies for your reply regarding Gnr Barlow.I am aware that the occupants of this grave were buried under German supervision in 1941-42 and a full list submitted by the St Venant mayor at the time which was attached with the photograph to my initial mail.I am also aware that post mortems were carried out both at the time of buriel and at the end of the war by the British.It was simply the omission of Gnr Barlow from the later list and his subsequent commemoration on the Dunkirk Memorial rather than in the St Venant Cemetery under a named headstone.
Even if his remains were subsequently `lost` the fact that he is listed on the original exhumation list does he not warrant a `Known to be buried` headstone? There was after all enough personal effects to identify Gnr Barlow initially and the fact that every other soldier from that grave lies at St Venant. I am surprised that the commision holds so few records on this particular location as the locations of the temporary graves and occupants are are well known in France and have appeared in recent years in at least one publication.I was aware that you held nothing further on Gnr Barlow but hoped my e-mail would have alerted you to the possibility that there does exist albeit not currently held by yourselves more information on this matter.The list I forwarded onto you bears the official Mayors office stamp could enquiries not be made through your French Office?
Could you please tell me what the criteria would be to have a soldier,such as Gnr Barlow,remembered with a `Known (Believed) to be buried in this cemetery` headstone. I am not a relative but I am interested in any opinions you may have on this matter
Yours
Best
Jim
PS..................... 177 UNKNOWNS IN ST VENANT ???????????
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Well done, Jim. Keep up the pressure.
John
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Yet another disappointment a definate NO!
Quote:
Thank you for your reply.<O:P></O:P>
The records that the Commission holds regarding St. Venant Communal Cemetery were based on the information provided to us by the service authorities, and we do not hold any documentation regarding the mass grave that you had highlighted. As this is the case, this means that we are unable to confirm the list that you have provided regarding those casualties that were originally buried in this site. <O:P></O:P>
As Gunner Barlow is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial, it must be assumed that the military authorities were unable to make an identification of his remains. Without more stantial evidence regarding the place of burial for Gunner Barlow, we cannot accede to your request to erect a special memorial marker in St. Venant Communal Cemetery.<O:P></O:P>
We are of course aware that this decision will come as a disappointment, but I hope you are able to appreciate how the Commission is placed in such matters.<O:P></O:P>
Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
Paul Davis<O:P></O:P>
Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>
I seem to have addressed my initial question to the wrong people but I need one last answer from the CWGC.As you can see by the reply above they did not give the Criteria we need to have Gnr Barlow recognised as buried there.
Quote:
Dear Mr Davies,
Thank you for your reply I do appreciate that you act on the information available to you and perhaps I was wrong to assume that as I had highlighted the source of the list enquiries might be made by yourselves at the Mayors office in St Venant.Nevertheless disappointing as this outcome has been I now know through your correspondence that I might have best addressed my initial enquiry to the Ministry of Defence? As you have stated you have only the records supplied by the Service Authorities? With this in mind should my future enquiries with the Ministry of Defence verify the existance of the other record of buriel,as submitted by myself, then with their approval would the commision again look at the case of Gnr Barlow?.I thank you for your replies to date but would welcome one final answer from yourselves on his point.
Yours
I have had little dealings with the MoD in the past but on the rare occasions I have spoken with them they have been very thorough managing to source records previously thought destroyed.Its finding the right person to speak to. Tony the search for Anthony still goes on this is all linked if the MoD have anything at all on St Venant in May 1940 it will not be confined to just Gnr Barlow I know.
Best Wishes
Jim
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Better News today I have had limited access to the recordings dealing with Sgt Wray and Pte F Cottier. There are no mentions of Anthony by name but there is a detailed account of the actions at the HQ .I do have brief details but hopefully I can get access again to give a full acount here.This is just to give something a little more positive on the search for Pte Corkhill after a series of disappointments.
Best
Jim
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Looking forward to that Jim, lets face it ANY info may help to find answers and untill we understand the confusion at that time we have little hope of even second guessing what happened to Anthony. The stuff from the CWGC doesnt surprise me they cant be the font of all knowledge in this, however if the MOD has any info i would hope it will surface in due time though even though i work for the MOD i dont have a clue who would be able to help or to contact just a though but maybe a request for info under the freedom of information act though i would think this would be to wide a remit for that avenue, who knows it may be worth a try.
Cheers now and have a good festive season gang.
Dave
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hello Dave,
A bit belated as I think I was away when you arrived but WELCOME !. Today has been what I term a good day ! Two e-mails awaited my arrival from work the first was again from the CWGC and this time not only did they concede that the information they hold was supplied by the old War Office (Modern Day Ministry of Defence ) but have provided address,department and point of contact regarding our `missing` casualties.Just as relevant for Anthony Corkhill as Gnr Barlow.What they have stressed is the proof will have to be substancial but they will act on the guidance of the MoD. Now the hard part really starts especially if M.Faivre is now the keeper of the Mayors records? Still it will be a challenge!
Second mail was in relation to the Sound Archive at the IWM as most will know the IWM is preparing for a major refurbishment and workmen are already at work well somehow the audio has come back online albeit it does suffer from loss of link now and again but we can for the moment listen to accounts by McLane,Wray and Cottier and its just dawned on me as I`m typing away that I have notchecked yet for Audio recordings for the period from the RWF and Royal Berks.So hopefully we can have a few more detailed accounts very soon.
Best
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dcdl12976
Looking forward to that Jim, lets face it ANY info may help to find answers and untill we understand the confusion at that time we have little hope of even second guessing what happened to Anthony. The stuff from the CWGC doesnt surprise me they cant be the font of all knowledge in this, however if the MOD has any info i would hope it will surface in due time though even though i work for the MOD i dont have a clue who would be able to help or to contact just a though but maybe a request for info under the freedom of information act though i would think this would be to wide a remit for that avenue, who knows it may be worth a try.
Cheers now and have a good festive season gang.
Dave
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Thanks for the welcome mate. Nice one as i said ANY info on the confused state of affairs in this area at the time just may give us a clue, as i said before im hoping to get to the area next year with Dad (if at 94 he is well enough to go) you never know sight of the area may just jog his memory for some information though of course as Royal Berks it probably will not be pertinent to this threads aim.
Who was it that said
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Arthur Conan Doyle i believe
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hello hope you all had a nice Christmas ? Apology to John for disturbing him on Christmas day!
Whilst reading through a few things on here and cross referencing with some casualty lists it has dawned on me once again that the CWGC have been ,shall we say, selective in what they have told me in relation to the mass grave which may (may not) contain the RA gunner.
You will recall in their reply to me just a couple of weeks ago ;-
Quote:
......we do not hold any maps or details regarding battlefield clearance or any mass field graves found in the local area.
or this one;-
Quote:
.........The records that the Commission holds regarding St. Venant Communal Cemetery were based on the information provided to us by the service authorities, and we do not hold any documentation regarding the mass grave that you had highlighted.
I took them at their word then this evening on their main site ,staring out at me is this;-
Quote:
There are 253 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-18 war, 10 of which are unidentified, and 177 of the 1939-1945 war, 40 of which are unidentified, in this site. The 1939-45 total includes the 90 originally buried in a mass grave and an officer who is commemorated by a special memorial inscribed "Believed to be".
So they were aware of a mass grave? They were aware of 90 men within that grave (about thirty more than I was) ! Then why consistantly deny any knowledge ? Do they believe a denial will satisfy such an enquiry??? perhaps it would from `Joe Public` but it just heightens my frustrations and renews my determination.Theres more out there I was just coming round to believing that by providing a point of contact within the MoD that the CWGC were finally coming to realise that these `missing` men ,Pte Corkhill and Gnr Barlow matter! Despite the passage of time they need to be brought in from the cold!
Best
Jim
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hmm that is strange Jim i can only assume that the guy you are exchanging E-Mails with doesnt know or look at there site before replying to an E-Mail or it may just be that he is one of very few to deal with what may well be a shed load of enquiries every day, as they say in the house "the honourable Gentleman is being economical with the truth i think".
Just shows though we cannot take anything they say as gospel and indeed "take with a pinch of salt" springs to mind. Could it be that they dont want to get into a war crimes situation investigation in which case it may be there policy not to admit anything related to one. (just a thought) being a civil servant myself i know these things happen it may even be that the relevant paperwork has not been released to the public domain yet and therefore officialy doesnt exist (again just a thought).
Jim could you let me have the contact details in the MOD as since i work for them i just may be able to help, no promises mind. Also give me a brief outline of what questions you want asked.
Cheers now
Dave
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Hi Dave.
as you say, strange.
I am a retired Civil Servant,MOD,(RAF) and i too have been considering the possibilities regarding this situation. I tend to agree with you, but, there is a possibility you may not have considered. They may not be in possession of the full facts. We know the Frenchman is in possession of a number of files whether originals or copies we do not know, nor do we really know how long he has had them. These files appear to have been in the office of the Mayor of Haverskirque previously. So they are effectively out of the British Public Domain. Therefore not subject to freedom of information requests.
You mention the possibility of a War Crime Situation. I am not sure about this, We were only seeking to follow the path of the Tom Rogers Investigation, which I would have expected to Highlight any such problems. So while I would welcome any assistance you may be able to provide, please do not do anything that may cause any problems to yourself or your position within the MoD.
ivor
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Ivor, Hmm i had not thought of them not being in full possession of the facts which is rather remiss of me, i would have thought though that if the Frenchman has the original paperwork then the MOD should at least have copies (Or the other way round).
Sometimes things like this are not highlighted simply because it is not policy to even talk about it (i would imagine as an ex MOD civil servant yourself you have run across this). If i can help in any way i will indeed do so, dont worry about me putting my position in danger mate at 60 i can retire anytime so i dont really care anyway. To be fair most officials within the MOD nowadays are extremely helpful and would not consider it an affront if asked in the right way for any help by MOD employee and i do have the advantage that i can use an MOD E-Mail address and telephone number. At thwe end of the day they can only say i cant help you at the worst.
Cheers now
Dave
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Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
hi.
I agree the E mail and MoD phone book can get some very interesting doors opened. i suspect this may be a topic not spoken about.
But good luck, if you can get to the right person, with the right questions. who knows what will come to light.
ivor
