View Full Version : 4189281 Cpl William Christopher Watson - RWF 1930's
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Guys, a Gibraltarian family on Facebook are trying to find out more about 4189281 Cpl William Watson who was in the regiment in the 1930's. The request comes from his grandson who's parent was born on Gibraltar whilst Watson was serving there.
It looks like he left the island in the late 1930's and was never seen or heard of again. What we do have is as follows.
From Richard Ward:. William Christopher Watson joined the RWF on 11th July 1930 and left the regiment on the 10 April 1941. At this stage that's all we've got.
His family traced him to an address in Swansea in 1938 after writing to the 2nd Bn in India in that year. Any of our researchers have this man on their files? What would good is his date and place of birth, as this will be a springboard to identifying living family.
Finally for the experts, can the family apply for his service record, without the date of birth?
Thankshttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
Baconwallah
12-01-2014, 12:10
Finally for the experts, can the family apply for his service record, without the date of birth?
The form says "Service number and/or date of birth", Al, so no problems expected.
Here are the download links for both forms required:
Request for Service personnel details: next of kin form (v6) (PDF) (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/210233/request_service_details_NOK_pt1_v6.pdf)
Request for Service personnel details: British Army part 2 (PDF) (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/142479/request_for_service_details_army_application_part2 _1_.pdf)
Fill in the forms, then add three tenners and that's it.
John
Thanks John, i've passed that detail onto them, i'm hopeful they will register on here.
In the 1911 Census. The 29 Richards St addess in Manselton, Swansea was occupied by the "Wood" family
One of the issues with the forms John, is the requirement for a death cert and NOK details…also feasibly this man may still be alive(unlikely). We know he joined in 1930. So i'm assuming he was aged 15-22…so a possible birth between 1908-1915….Nightmare. I've asked the enquirer "Ernest" for any other small pieces of info...
hi.
1911 census only comes up with.
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/results4.aspx?x=1998505838
ivor
Thanks Ivor, but I can't read that, as you need a log in. I have sent a message to one possible family tree on Ancestry…But the entry lacks detail. Williams grandson, Ernest, also has pictures of William serving in China….Looking at Red Dragon. The 2nd Bn arrived in Gib in 1931 and departed on the 21st Oct 1934. Heading to Hong Kong.
On the 14th Aug 1937, the 2nd battalion at short notice deployed to Shangai from Hong Kong to protect foreigners and property as the Japanese expansion into China gathered pace. They departed in Jan 1938, heading back to Hong Kong.
So it fits that he was a 2nd Bn man, as per the attached letter in 1939 sent by the 2nd Bn from India
hi
ok .basically it says.
Schedule type Household.
Last Names Watson.
First Names William Christopher.
Sex Male.
Birth Year 1911
age in 1911 2 Months.
District/other West Bromwich
County/other Staffordshire.
ivor
hi.
a bit more.
Ancestry are listing 6 William C Watsons.
The West Brom one B jan Qtr 1911
1 Oct Qtr Neath.
1 Jul 1910 Pontyprydd.
3 1912 1 Apr qt southwark
1 jul qt Darlington
1Jul qt Godstone
Thanks Ivor, keep that on the back burner as it may be useful after Ernest has had a further talk with his father(Williams son) next week. If he knows where William was born we can then narrow it down.
Also note that "C" may not be on official documents…so it could also be William Watson.
Baconwallah
12-01-2014, 21:09
One of the issues with the forms John, is the requirement for a death cert and NOK details…
Ah, yes, there is that. Hadn't noticed.
John
Baconwallah
12-01-2014, 21:11
Also note that "C" may not be on official documents…so it could also be William Watson.
Very true, unfortunately. The 1911 census often only gives the first name.
John
A couple of Xmas cards sent from William to his son and the mother of his child(Ernest's Grandmother) from Hong Kong. I would suggest Xmas 1937….The Bn was in China and did not depart to Hong Kong until Jan 1938…But the timings may not be accurate.
31223123http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
Actually, those Xmas cards may be from any period between Xmas 1934 - 38. The Bn were posted there in October 1934 and remained there until mid 1938
this are a few more pics,havent ben to succesfull with my dad doesnt remember much,only that william went to swansea and finished his career in 1940s3130thats him in the uniform dont know who the other person is
oh and i think he used to play cricket,i cant put the pic the site doesnt let me
Thanks Ernest. Anything of interest on your Dads Birth Cert? I'm wondering if Williams age might be listed, that would at least give us a birth year?
My father is not sure if he was 1 or 2 years less than my his mother or 1 or 2 more,she was born in 1912 so he must be if its more or less between 1910 to 1914
Aled Roberts
15-01-2014, 21:05
These are my favourite contenders so far :
WATSON William C Pontypridd Glamorganshire 1910
WATSON William C Neath Glamorganshire 1911
Do we have any names of other members of the family to work with?
his not on his birth certificate
that i know off here in gib there is no one else ny grandmother died and took everything with her,my father doesnt remember nearly anything,know if william watson had more kids or married again i dont know but would love too,so im seeing this like a mission impossible,as to get official papers which cost you £30 you need a date of birth or death to get the correct one ,as they wont give money back if they get the wrong william watson,thanks everyone you've a tried what you could and i appreciate that a lot :)
Baconwallah
18-01-2014, 20:58
The Enlistment Register might provide more information. In the current situation it's either with the RWF Museum archive in Wrexham or with the RWF Museum library in Bodelwyddan Castle.
John
i will check them thanks,altough i wrote to one museum and they where moving of place and they told me to wright to them in a few months,i have cricket pics of him do you think that maybe they had team names that might help?i cant upload them here i will try in my album
still no luck no wonder my father says he will die without knowing,i need a date of birth death date of william watson,if not i cant order for his official papers,somebody must know him or family member if he had kids there might be a possiblitiy there is another watson here ..help
Its quite difficult Ernest, assuming he was born in South Wales, Richard Ward supplied two possibles for you. I've emailed the owner of a family tree on Ancestry, in which a William C Watson of Glamorgan appears. However I've not had a response. I've also messaged a contact at the museum.
These are my favourite contenders so far :
WATSON William C Pontypridd Glamorganshire 1910
WATSON William C Neath Glamorganshire 1911
Do we have any names of other members of the family to work with?
You could apply for the most likely ones birth and death cert. Then apply for Williams record using that detail and see what you get back. Yes you may lose £30, but at least you will have tried.
At least one of Richards possibles have died:
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These are my favourite contenders so far :
WATSON William C Pontypridd Glamorganshire 1910
WATSON William C Neath Glamorganshire 1911
Do we have any names of other members of the family to work with?http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Overseas/gibraltarWW1.html rwf death dates are here maybe thought it might be of use here
susanjane
26-01-2014, 17:50
Can someone supply Ernests fathers first names and year of birth. Also Williams wifes names.I tried FreeBMD but all variations on Annita/Anuita don't appear for marriages.Also FreeBMD is very busy today so painful searches! Does Ernest know if they married abroad?
Can he supply anything about his grandparents? Perhaps I have missed th original question. Using BMD is a very good way of tracing backwards.
In 1912 the registers started to add the mothers surname to birth records.
There is mention of a sister born about 2 years before or after.What is her first name? I now see that it was his mother-so need her name/s and his fathers year of birth.
The most information to start with would be given by William and Anitas marriage certificate.This should give both their fathers names and occupations and then we can look up again in 1911 census. If any other siblings names are known or the death dates of William and Anita that will give clues.I hope that this helps! I am prepared to do look ups if more info is supplied.
I cannot see how to save this message so that I can search the thread.I highlighted and copied and then pasted back which saved alot of time.
Sue
hi my grandmothers name was anna ignacio she didnt have time to marry my grandfather a he got deployed to india and then china-hongkong etc,when my dad was a baby basicly,my dads name is william ignacio as he wasnt in gib on that time for my dads birth certificate thats why everything is very compilicated,all i have is what you can read in this forum and photos i have on my profile and that letter that was send to my grandmother by the rwf office telling her he had moved place,i really wish i knew more
Thanks Sue, all help is gratefully received. To clarify:
1/ I don't think William and Anuita were married. Can you confirm Ernest?
2/ You need the name of Williams mother?…or Ernest's mother? Can you confirm please Sue.
I have access to Ancestry, so we can also utilise that.
Thanks again
Al
Can someone supply Ernests fathers first names and year of birth. Also Williams wifes names.I tried FreeBMD but all variations on Annita/Anuita don't appear for marriages.Also FreeBMD is very busy today so painful searches! Does Ernest know if they married abroad?
Can he supply anything about his grandparents? Perhaps I have missed th original question. Using BMD is a very good way of tracing backwards.
In 1912 the registers started to add the mothers surname to birth records.
There is mention of a sister born about 2 years before or after.What is her first name? I now see that it was his mother-so need her name/s and his fathers year of birth.
The most information to start with would be given by William and Anitas marriage certificate.This should give both their fathers names and occupations and then we can look up again in 1911 census. If any other siblings names are known or the death dates of William and Anita that will give clues.I hope that this helps! I am prepared to do look ups if more info is supplied.
I cannot see how to save this message so that I can search the thread.I highlighted and copied and then pasted back which saved alot of time.
Sue
susanjane
26-01-2014, 23:12
We need any dates or names that can be supplied but it doesn't sound too hopeful.
Have you tried photos and an item in Welsh newspapers OR in a Genealogy Magazine.He has a distinctive face.It seems highly likely that he married again and forgot about his young son.
He presumably served again in WW2 unless he became a coal miner or seaman.Would his Service Records carry on from RWF to any new Regiment?
Unless he managed to change his identity-not easy with wartime beaurocracy-then his death or marriage might be findable on FreeBMD.
Sue
susanjane
27-01-2014, 11:21
I see that the letter to Anna was dated early in 1938 and says that he has left the RWF and is on the Army Reserve.Presumably still at the beck and call of RWF because he is also said to be still on their strength until 1941.
Re the death of William Christopher Watson aged 49 in Dec 1960 in Birmingham-I have found his will where he leaves his wife as executor.He left £9,000 -quite a tidy sum in those days.They married in Jun quarter 1939 when he would have been 28. His age fits in with the West Bromwich birth and 1911 census.His parents were only 21 -a hairdresser-and 20 but married 3 years and with 2 living children.Only W C aged 2 months is shown though. I checked their marriage and found mention of his mother on some genealogy sites.Which I can try to follow up if needed.
My father entered the Guards aged about 15/16 in about 1930.Might Watson have entered similiarly?After serving with Essex Police in 1930's my father went back into the Guards in 1940 then after commissioning he went into RASC. The trail might be similiar.But why join the RWF unless there was some family link to Wales.
Of course the RWF might have been recruiting in Birmingham and he joined up then.Are there any Recruitment drive documents ?I believe one of you mentioned Enlistment Rolls.
I wonder whether Anna said that she had a child and the Adjutant who replied was covering up for him.Did the family actually manage to find him in Swansea at that address and then he disappeared?I imagine that they wrote at least.Then no reply?
Sue
Hi
There is a strong Welsh Presence in Birmingham. as this link shows
http://www.birminghamwelsh.org.uk/
I know that a lot of Welsh went to the Cities for work my Fathers family are from Lansanan, Denbighshire. But he was born Liverpool. So i do not find it odd that Men from that area would join the RWF.
ivor
Baconwallah
27-01-2014, 14:01
Birmingham always had a strong presence in the RWF. In 1914, about 20% of the Regulars were Brummies.
The Enlistment Register, property of the RWF Museum but probably now in the care of the Wrexham Museum archivist, starts in 1920 or thereabouts. It will provide some basic information about William Christopher Watson.
John
susanjane
27-01-2014, 15:18
Thanks John and Ivor--that explains why a Brummy might be in the RWF.
I have started to see if WC 's father William Joseph was a War casualty or has a MIC.He was only 21 in 1911 census.
I forgot to add that there are several children born between 1940 and 1956, possibly to the William C and his wife who married in 1939 , but none in Birmingham. I used fathers name Watson and the mothers maiden name.I also tried to follow them up on BMD but haven't got anywhere.I would think that there are up to 3 different marriages with those 2 surnames.Or they moved around a lot!
Sue
Wouldn't it be worthwhile looking at the Swansea area first? As per the address in the 1939 letter. It might be a red herring, but worth a punt. We have a man who fits from Neath:
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susanjane
28-01-2014, 17:03
Yes I agree-- but I decided to try the Wills and Probate section on Ancestry and came up with the/a Birmingham William Christopher Watson so researched that line.
I have now looked at the 1911 census for Neath and come up with 2 families who might have added to their family in late 1911. I also looked at Watson and Jones Marriages from 1900.Only his birth cert will help us.
I think that the enlistment Registers should be the next research.Some of you might be able to do that!
Sue
im really sorry i cant help with dates wish i could,tomorrow i will pop in again to my dads to see if he remembers anything else,i have a photo with a few names written behind of friends of him,but i cant post it here it doesnt let me
Museum has left me a message that they will get some to look into it next week fingers crossed
all my dad remembers is that during the evacuation of gibraltar in 1940 i think it was,they where send to uk and they did go to see him in swansea,but he doesnt know what happened,all he says is that was the last contact with his dad,they came back to gib after the war and his dad,never wrote to him again or had contact with him,after all this years my dad had tears in his eyes talking about it :(
susanjane
31-01-2014, 16:52
Where did they live in UK in those years Ernest? Were they sent to stay with families or all put in one camp?
Hope that there is success next week
Sue
they were put in camps in london others were send to n ireland jamaica maderia etc,my dads grandmother and my grandmother pop to swansea to see him during that time
Baconwallah
02-02-2014, 19:49
Just found this (from the Enlistment Register)
4189281 Watson, William Christopher, Regular, attested 11/07/1930, discharged 10/04/1941.
John
Hi Ernest. I've been thinking how to progress this. If it was my relative, this is what I would do.
Firstly apply for the Death Certificate of William C Watson, who was born in 1911 and died in 1950(Full details below). The Cost is about £9 and it can be ordered on line at:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp) You should receive the Death Certificate within about 7-10 days. Once you have that, your ready for the next stage
Details for Death Cert
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Next Complete the attached documents.
Part 1 is completed by your father(or by you, just get him to sign, as he is the NOK).
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Then complete Part 2. Which I have partially done for you.
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You need to tick "C" "Completion Of Regular Peacetime Engagement"
Then enclose a cheque for £30, include the Death Certificate and then send off to the MOD and see what happens.
The crucial bit about Part 2 is they ask for either a Service No or DOB. You have the Service Number so your request should be processed..
Do any of the experts have a view?http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
im applying for the death certificate,just to make sure i - have to press england and wales?
age 39 he was still very young that might be a motive for him to lose contact with my dad,if its him of course,did the inlisted register have his number too
Yes its England & Wales.
Regarding the enlistment register, as John confirmed, it included his service number.
Remember we don't know if the death listed is your William. But by using it, you get over the issues of Death Cert requirements on all requests under 116 years since birth of the subject.
hi dont wanna sound stupid lol but is the GRO mumber the date of death ? ..we are not sleeping much with my son his epileptic and autistic,and his all week haveing massive fits again,so my head is not working propely and needs sleep haha,so sorry if i ask a lot thanks
No problem. The GRO number is a series of numbers and details that are shown on the image I supplied on the image regarding the death of William C Watson from Pontypridd.
So tick " Yes" where they ask if you have the GRO index. This will take you to the next page, which you fill out as I have below:
3163http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
THANKS apl,really appreciate all your help and the help of the others in this site,its asking for my reference what do i have to put there
If its asking for 'Your Personal Reference" just enter "Watson"
Make sure you've applied for a Death Certificate issued in England & Wales……Not Overseas!
Order Reference
Name on
Certificate
Certificate
Type
Number of Certificates
No. Ref
Checks
Despatch
Date (Est)
Customer
Ref
Price
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William C Watson
E/W Death
1
0
10 Feb 2014
Watson
£9.25
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Year
Qtr
District
Vol
Page
Reg
Ent No
DOR
1950
Mar
PONTYPRIDD
8B
598
£9.25
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Can you pls check its ok before ordering do i have to put a order reference on the top
That looks fine Ernest. No need for a reference.
thanks ap1,its his wife my husband is sleeping,we've had a bad night,but i wanted to finnish this for him
thanks for helping my wife finnish what i was doing,hope it was ok for her to go on this site,i have uploaded photos it says pending approvel,there is one with william watson in a hockey team are there any files or photos of rwf hockey teams during that time,dates or something thanks
hope ive uploaded the photos to the album ok ,so that everyone that wants to look at them can
Your picture are in the gallery Ernest, under "Regiment by Decades" 1930's
thanks was wondering where they went :winkicon:,was there any hockey team on those years
I'm sure their was. The battalions did, and still do play most sports.
AP1 do you know anything about those names,i have in one of the photos if they served together,there might be something else,i cant pass the photo here it doesnt let me
What names and which photo Ernest? List them on here please.
in my albums the back of one of the photo says ..taken at Gibraltar w.1933 ..Fisher ,Davies,Parcell,and 3 more names i cant understand well,photo was taken at buena vista:
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its here in my albums ,i havent got the photos any more had to take them back to my dad
Regarding "Parcel" is that spelling correct? or is it spelt " Parsell"
I have found a George Parsell who was born in 1908…so similar age to William. He was killed in Burma in 1943 with the 1st BN. I note on the below certificate that the word "Serjeant" spelt with a "J". Which is a tradition from the 2nd Bn:
First Name:
George
Initials:
G
Surname:
Parsell
DOB:
Circa 1908
Age:
35
Birth County:
Glamorgan.
Resided Town:
Cardiff.
Nationality:
British
Date of Death:
18/03/1943
Information:
HUSBAND OF S. M. PARSELL, OF ILFRACOMBE, DEVON.
Rank:
Serjeant
Service Number:
4187381
susanjane
11-02-2014, 16:14
I read it as Gym Vests--perhaps a private joke? Also I wasn't certain that that is a Capital H for Hewell as you would expect so maybe some other name? Cumwell ?
Sue
I also thought that Susan, after looking more closely. That would actually fit, because Watson is also there as the 6th man.
Interestingly I've just found this picture from the Sudan in 1938. Look at the man rear rank, 2nd from right. Is that William?
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Its from the website www.rwfphotos.co.uk Its from a collection called Jack Underwood who was in the 2nd Bn in Shanghai in 1937. Then Sudan.
Additionally Ernest, have a good look through theses 14 pages of 2nd Bn photos from the same period, including Gib:
A couple of pictures look like William.
http://www.rwfphotos.co.uk/page1565.html
wow great pics,in the first one you put im not sure,but in the one of 14 pages i think he comes out in a few of them,oh and in one of them there is one called Davies which matches with one of the names that we have at the back of our photo
im thinking that maybe that writing belongs to the other group photo,as sue mention it looks like gym vests,and there is actually a pile of what looks like vests,also because in the file where i copied by dads photos the writing is beside the other photo,can you take a look at the other photo ap1
Right, so the picture relates to this one Ernest, which now makes sense:
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3173 Bamhouse, Fisher, Cpl Purcell, H(?)ewell, Davies and Gym Vestshttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
yes that is the one,if like sue says it might be a joke thing and my grandfather wrote the pile of vest which matches the pic
susanjane
13-02-2014, 10:20
Ernest do you have any other examples of his writing? I wonder if Hewell could be Lerwell or even ???mell.I believe that there are 3 letters before the well or mell.
Hope that you have more news soon
Sue
there are a few others,here in my profile (i think )of writing behind the photos but i dont think there is more names,thanks im waiting for the death cert fingers crossed
im uploading the xmas cards,it has more writing in them
done they are awaitng approvel,maybe ap1 can post them here when they are approved as i cant sorry
xmas cards have been approved:winkicon:
In 1950 W Wanklyn(named on kitbag) appears in a staff photo at the Welsh Brigade Training Centre. By now he was a WO2 with a chest full of medals. Regi Records Vol VI
3179Picture taken in 1934 before deploying to China
Hope you dont mind me asking what is a wo2
Hope you dont mind me asking what is a wo2
WO2 = Warrant Officer 2nd class, includes company sergeant major, Regimental quartermaster sgt, bandmaster.
got death certificate :( not what i expected ap1 you can see it in my photos
3209
Ok, I would now fill in the application for Williams Service Record. Enter his name as: William C Watson.
We don't really have any documentary proof of what his middle name actually is, indeed the army letter is 1939 only refers to him as Cpl William Watson. So hopefully this death certificate should be sufficient to get hold of Williams Service record. The age is also the same/similar.
I don't have any other avenues to suggest, its a gamble, but other than waiting for another 12yrs until the 116 year cut off point passes, theres not much else you can do!!!http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
hi all
odd cause of death.
exhaustion
and
looked up Status Epilepticus :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_epilepticus
possibly first as a result of second, strange. and also he was living in a Hostel and not working, possibly due to his condition.
ivor
Baconwallah
17-02-2014, 18:27
Nothing odd about it, Ivor. An untreated status epilepticus will kill you, even today, and without going into the physiological and biochemical details the cause of death can be simply described as 'exhaustion'.
John
do you think this watson might be my grandad,if he had epilepsy ,he couldnt have been in a war ?
Who knows Ernest…..Its totally impossible to say at the moment because we don't know anything about his life other than he lived in Swansea after he left the army. I would focus on the main aim….Which is obtaining his service record. If this doesn't work i'm not really sure what your next step should be.
Hi All.
If you look at the Causes in the link i attached, and i hope John can confirm this, Status Epilepticus, does not appear to be Epilepsy. there are a number of possible causes listed. He certainly, i think, could have developed this at any time after the war.
As he lived in a Hostel when he died, do you know anything about his lifestyle after the war, as some of the causes may appear to be connected to lifestyle.
ivor
Baconwallah
19-02-2014, 15:05
Hi All.
If you look at the Causes in the link i attached, and i hope John can confirm this, Status Epilepticus, does not appear to be Epilepsy. there are a number of possible causes listed.
The one and only cause is epilepsy, either directly (what we call 'idiopathic') or as a result of brain damage, poisoning, bad or insufficient medication, good medication made less effective by other medication, you name it. Even if the status is caused by extreme fatigue, the underlying cause will be idiopathic epilepsy which suddenly becomes [more] active because the defence mechanisms are overworked.
And believe me, it can kill. I've seen it.
John
i believe you my son has severe epilepsy,and nearly lost him 3 times,its been only this last 3 years his more controled
susanjane
23-02-2014, 10:26
Hi Ernest
Storms on 14th put our phone and Broadband out and we are still not reconnected. I am using afriends laptop
Do get the Service Record-take the gamble.
I believe that this man was the one born at Pontypridd.There was another born at nearby Neath who we haven't managed to research fully.There were several families of Watson there in the 1911 census.2 lived next to each other in 6 and 7 Canal Lane.One is entered as Jack Jones -head-and then altered to to Watson.The Neath William C Watsons mother was a Jones. There was also Cyril born 1914 died 1915 and launcelot R born 1916.I couldn't find anything else about him but he might have used his 2nd name!!They both had amother formerly Jones[from FreeBMD]
The epilipsy-the cause of death and your sons condition might just be a big coinhcidence.
Good luck
Sue
susanjane
23-02-2014, 11:34
Hi again,
It occurs to me that Ernest won't be supplied with the Service Record if William Charles is the wrong man.
Richard Ward quoted the W Christopher Watson who seemed to fit in better.Should Ernest next apply for the Birth Cert of W C born 1911 in Neath and use that in his application?
Perhaps more research shoul;d be done on the Neath man using FreeBMD and possibly GenesReunited-and any other website that might help.
Before my storm problems I did use GenesR and found a number of people with a William watson in their Trees and also a Violet watson born 1909.She isn't part of any family that I had looked at on 1911 census.It sometimes helps to investigate other siblings/possible siblings.
Also perhaps someone can find the Rootsweb.com Mailing List for Neath/Swansea area.Other subscribers on that can be very helpful-sub is free but you can first Browse or Search the Archives and might find something of use. I tried British Newspapers but not much Wales coverage yet.Again a local researcher might be able to help at a local library.There might be a report on this mans death in 1950.The Pontypridd/Aberdare/Mountain Ash family had a lot of children. There are also rootsweb Message Boards but I find them rather USA orientated.
Neath is close to Swansea which is why i would go with this research first.
Wish that I could help more on this but not able to at the moment until BT pull their finger out!!
Sue
when i applied for the death certificate i put down pontypridd..yes agree with you that epilepsy is just a coincidence as my sons is not genetic,so what shall i do as i havent send for papers of w charles yet as im not sure of that one
susanjane
25-02-2014, 16:55
Our line will be down for another week!! You just need to find out more about the Neath man and perhaps apply for his birth cert which you can also use for your Service Records application if it seems to be right.A birth cert might give his 2nd name as the Pontypridd death cert did.
Try www.freebmd.org (http://www.freebmd.org) for a Marriage or death .Perhaps look for Christopher Watson.Age is the important factor against adeath.
Or www.rootsweb.org (http://www.rootsweb.org) and then Mailing Lists and find a Glamorgan site.There maybe more than one.Then Search the Archives for Watson.Then perhaps sub and to ask questions is free
Perhaps someone on Ancestry or FMP or GR can find out more Deaths go to a more recent date than BMD does
The Violet and William watson that I found on GR--GenesReunited-were the ones from West Bromwich, so probably not of interest.
Good luck
Sue
susanjane
02-03-2014, 22:38
Hi Ernest,
I have managed a session on a friends computer and tried to research the Neath man. He possibly had 2 brothers --Cyril born 1914/died 1915 and Lancelot Ronald Watson born at Neath 1916 Sep quarter.He seems to have died at Ogwr[?] Mid Glamorgan in 1985 Sep q.Parents Watson and mother nee Jones.
I thought that I had found a marriage for him in Newport, Monmouthshire in 1946 and there is another Lancelot R who married in Leeds in 1937 but I am not convinced that either fit in.Sadly no one has any of the known family in their Tree on GenesReunited.The newspapers on line don't come up with anything either.There were rather a lot of Lancelot Watsons around to my surprise. I had hoped to find family who could give us some information.
Early on in this Thread Richard Ward is quoted as saying that William Christopher Watson was in the 2nd Batt from 1930 to 1941.The letter from Lucknow says he left in March 1938 and presumably stayed on the strength for possible callup. Did your grandmother and family know that his 2nd name was Christopher or was he just known as William?
My suggestion is that you apply for the Birth Certificate of William C Watson born at Neath in 1911 at a cost of approx £10.Hopefully you will have more info on that and feel that this is the right person..
I believe that you can use a birth certificate to apply for the Service Records.
I hope that this can be of some help.
Has anyone else let you know anything about any of the other men named on your photos? Perhaps we could have found out something through the family of one of them.
Sue
Early on in this Thread
susanjane
03-03-2014, 13:27
Oh Dear! I have just noticed that I made a typo on Feb 23 when I encouraged you to try for the Service Record
I should have said that I Didn't think that the Pontypridd man was the right one!! You might feel differently.
Now that your thread is on the General Listing of Military Genealogy I get the feeling that we have lost many of the followers !
I have tried looking at the Glamorgan List on www.rootsweb.com (http://www.rootsweb.com) but found nothing to help you. Perhaps it is time to sub and ask some questions.Let me know if you are able to do this.
Also give me any other info that might be helpful
best wishes
Sue
susanjane
08-03-2014, 10:05
Hi Ernest
I had a discovery last night when I found a William WATSON aged 21 on board a japanese boat going to Gibraltar.Departed London 13 July/1934. He was with 8 other 'soldiers' including John Purcell aged 29. The others aged mainly 22.
If this age is correct then we need to look for a different William-born 1912. His address is given as 409 Penbregethin Road, Swansea.
I will post further details later. This was on Outgoing Passengers on Ancestry.
Sue
susanjane
09-03-2014, 18:19
Aboard ship bound for Japan and calling at Gibraltar. Ship departed London on 13 July 1934
Ship Hakazaki Morn or Moru.Ship might be Hakogaki. Nippon Yusen Line based on Kaisha
Outgoing passengers include 'Soldiers'
WEAVER Thomas 22 124 Kings Mill Rd Wrexham
DAWSON Wilfred 22 of Cannock, Staffs
WATSON William 21 409 Penbregethin Rd,Swansea
GRIFFITHS Robert 24 of Caernarvon
PURCELL John 29 of Whitchurch,Salop [Shropshire]
WILLIAMS Richard 22 of Mostyn
SHAKESAFF[?] Benjamin 24 of Newport
Hope this helps someone.
I can look for fuller addresses for those not given here on request! I will see if I can find others going to Gibraltar on other ships.
I didn't find William WATSON returning to UK when he left China/Hong Kong--or India.
Sue
Might it be worth starting a thread just for these names?
susanjane
09-03-2014, 18:22
Sorry--I missed off
MEHAGAN --22 of Dowlais,Glamorgan
Sue
Hi.
I think the ship was most probably the SS Hakozaki Maru of the Japanese NYK Line. she was built in 1922 some 10,415 tons and was torpedoed in 1945 by the U.S.Submarine U.S.S. Balao. i can not find a record of the July 34 voyage, only timetable images for 1930/31 and 35.
http://www.timetableimages.com/maritime/images/nyk.htm
but i will keep looking
ivor
susanjane
09-03-2014, 23:20
The ships tonnage is entered as 7156 and the Master was Y WANTABE
Further up the page-apart from the 8 soldiers-was RAVEN Frederick 36 of Eat St ,Coggershall,Essex. Maybe not Welch Fuseliers.
On other ships I have found several groups of soldiers bound for Gib. All entered as c/o Records Office,Lichfield apart from CRAILSHAM Harry aged 47 Major of 35 Sloane st, London SW.in 1931
From Free BMD the most likely candidate now for Ernest's grandfather is William WATSON born Swansea Dec q 1912 Mother formerly ENGLAND but there are also others born in Bedwelty, Ruthin andNeath in years 1912/13.
But in Mar 1913 there is William Watson born in Neath--mother formerly KENT .And in Plymouth William C K Watson --mother KENT. Maybe a typo or just possibly a Service or Mariners family moving around and registering him in both places?
Sue
Hi.
The Hakozaki Maru is shown on 2 shipping lists as 10,413 tonnes. However all ships have 2 published Weights A Net Tonnage and a Deadweight Tonnage. Deadweight Tonnage is the Maximum weight that a ship can safely carry and net register tonnage, without cargo.
so a vessel could have a DWT of 10,413 but a Net Tonnage of 7156 which would give it a load capacity of 3,250ish Tonnes. so both sets of figures could be right.
Now.
Captain Y Wantabe. The following link is interesting.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-Bio.html
It Contains the Name.
''WATANABE, Yasuji, Captain, I.J.N. Nav. No. 13
WATANABE was an officer of 25 years experience in the regular Navy. He specialized in gunnery and served as Gunnery Officer on several staffs including that of Admiral YAMAMOTO, CinC Combined Fleet, 1940-1943. During the PEARL HARBOR attack and the Battle of MIDWAY, he was with Admiral YAMAMOTO. Subsequent to these battles he also served as Landing Force Officer on the Combined Fleet Staff.
He had an excellent service reputation among other Japanese Naval Officers. During the interrogations he was most helpful in providing information and operation plans of the Combined Fleet. Outside sources have substantiated this information. He spoke very good English and all interrogations were conducted in that language.
Instructor, Gunnery College YOKOSUKA 1937-1938
Staff, 7th Cruiser Squadron 1938-1939
Staff, Second Fleet 1939-1940
Staff Gunnery Officer, Combined Fleet 1940-1943
Member of Council, Military Affairs, Navy Department 1943-1945
Staff, Supreme Headquarters TOKYO 1945''
Very similar.
I am not sure if a Japanese Navy Capt would have had a NYK ship i will have to check.
Ivor
hi.
photo of.
Hakozaki Maru
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Hakozaki_t.htm
ivor
susanjane
10-03-2014, 17:43
It is WATANABE--Another of my typos!!
Was he, amongst others, sent off on reconnaisance journeys to spy out harbours, fortifications etc??!!
I have found in Outgoing Passengers
William Watson 39 Police Officer going to Hong Kong 13/Nov/1953 on P&O ship 'Carthage'
Doris Jane 43 wife
Diane Wakefield Watson 2 home 9 Fitzroy St, Cathay
with William having been in HK and China pre War this would be a suitable job.
Also, in the photo of William with one other man, head and shoulders, I had wondered before whether he had on Mess Dress or Number 1 Dress or Policeman Uniform.
Has anyone any suggestions?
Sue
hi.
Confirming sailings for Hakozaki Maru 1934
23 February 1934 London Japan
12 July 1934 London Japan
30 November 1934 London Japan
from '' find my past''
ivor
Hi.
Susanjane. No i do not think Captain Watanabe was spying out anything.
I have looked up the Japanese Combined Fleet, and i think it likely, with the tension between Japan and China from 1933 caused by what is known as the Manchurian Incident, that the SS Hakozaki and other ships were requisitioned by the Japanese Navy. It is recorded that the Hakozaki became a Troop Ship at the outbreak of hostilities. So it is my belief that whilst still working as a Passenger/Cargo liner it was part of the JIN reserves with a Naval Captain.
Possibly.
ivor
susanjane
11-03-2014, 12:38
I imagine that they did make notes on the way though! 3 trips to and from London in one year would reveal quite a lot of info
On looking at the 2 man photo I see that William Watson is in Service Dress rather than Police Uniform and the picture done in a studio in HK or China.
I now think that William might have been the first child of William WATSON aged 27 and Martha J ENGLAND 25 who married in early 1911 and are on the Census at 8 Percy St, Gorse Rd Swansea.
They had 7 children between Dec quarter 1912 and 1928.
A William WATSON married Doris Kinsey in Swansea in Mar q 1940 but I have only found 1 birth so far--in 1946
I am unable to look up any maps as BT still haven't done the work and I have limited access to webs.
I rather hope that someone can locate this address and The one on the Ships manifesto
Sue
susanjane
25-03-2014, 01:27
I had another look at Passenger info on Ancestry and found William Watson 21 coming back from Gib with several other soldiers in May 1934.Address given is 409 Pentregethin Rd Swansea--slight change in spelling
He returned again in July 1934-as I had previously found- after leave and training?About 6 weeks.
also Richard Williams 22 of Mostyn
Geoge TONG 22 of Rhyl
James MEHAGAN 22 of Dowlais
Robert Griffiths 24 of Carnarvan
Wilfred DAWREN 22 of 217 New Building Staffs
Charles DUSKERS 24 of Arsenal
These last 2 I found 2nd and 3rd letters in their names difficult to read -rather faint typing and pencil marks on the page
I cannot find William Watson on his first outward journey to Gib pre 1934 nor his return from HK or China-or India in 1938.
Sue
susanjane
25-03-2014, 01:29
PS --they were again travelling on Nippon Yusan line-ship SUVA MARU--I think
Sue
Good Morning.
Probably the SS Suwa Maru She was on that route for several years and used to call in Gib.
ivor
susanjane
03-04-2014, 16:21
Dear All
I would be grateful for your help in finding the Death of William Watson born in Dec q 1912 in Swansea. At the moment we are guessing that he is the William Watson that we are trying to find! I found him on Incoming Passengers from Gibraltar in May 1934 aged 21 and also on Outgoing Passengers in July 1934 back to Gib. Home for about 6 weeks. A soldier .
His address in UK was given as 409 Pentregethin Road, Swansea. Can anyone tell me whether that was a house then or maybe a lodging house or similar. None of the other soldiers travelling with him gave that address.
He was in Swansea early in WW2 but then contact was lost. There is no obvious death for him in Wales up to 2006 when the Ancestry Death Register for England and Wales ends. He was not known to have a second name but even so there are many William Watson deaths to investigate. He would now be approaching 102 if still alive. He was a Corporal in the Royal Welch Guards.
He probably served again during WW2 but is not on CWGC records. We feel that he might well have emigrated or served abroad somewhere and might have married or died there. Had a family whose records might come up.
To obtain his Service Records the family have to have a Death Certificate.
I do not at present accessing Ancestry Worldwide Records or Find My Past or Family Research/IGI records . If anyone has easy access to these then I would be very grateful for any time and results that you can give.
Nil results would be useful in an elimination process!By private message if you would prefer,
Thank you
Sue
Dear All
I would be grateful for your help in finding the Death of William Watson born in Dec q 1912 in Swansea. At the moment we are guessing that he is the William Watson that we are trying to find! Looking at UK ancestry the mothers maiden name is "England"….not many of them!
Just to save anyone else replicating searches. In the 1911 Census , 3290
a collier and his wife were living at the address 409 Pentregethin, Swansea:
susanjane
03-04-2014, 22:49
Thank you ap1.It is almost certainly a house .
Someone on www.GLAMORGAN@rootsweb.com (http://www.GLAMORGAN@rootsweb.com) has found the Death of a William Watson aged 42 in Swansea Dec q 1954 which fits in with the birth in Dec q 1912.It is on Ancestry and www.freebmd.org.uk (http://www.freebmd.org.uk)
I'm not sure how I missed that one!!
I hope that Ernest can get the certificate and that it will be the right man and also answer some questions.
Brinley J Watson , Williams probable brother, died 10 years later at the same age. I haven't managed to positively work out marriages and deaths of others in the family so don't know what happened to them.
I have now looked on British Newspapers hoping for a family announcement or a mention of his death. If anyone can access any Glamorgan newspapers perhaps they could have search.From September 1954 and into 1955 I would think
Sue
hi everyone,still no luck,not even on the forces war records,which i have stopped paying for know,it gets annoying for me to keep seeing watsons that dont much,anything new here
Hi All.
Right, some of what i am going to write is probably known to you.But in order to make sense of this i will have to explain the lot.
First, i do not use Ancestry, too expensive, i use Family Search which is a Free search provided by the Mormon Church.
O.K. William C Watson,born 1912, as AP1 Says. his mothers Maiden Name is shown as England. Brindley J Watson, born 1923, also has mothers Maiden name of England. so very probable Brothers. Death of William C is recorded as Sept Q 1954 as stated. age 42.
Brinley J Death recorded Sept Q 1964 age 42.
Right Marriages. There is a record for William C of a Marriage to a Doris M Williams in the Jun Q of 1934.Now this ties in quite nicely with your record,susanjane, of the passenger record from Gib in May 34 with return in July 34.Possibly returned for his Wedding.
There is also a Marriage record for a Brinley Watson in the Sept q 1948. when he Married a Ursula J M Gatz.
If you are having difficulty obtaining Certificates then Both Family Search and FreeBMD both record the Volume,Page and Line for the record. i have copied them so if you would like i can provide them save you searching.
ivor
Hi again.
in an earlier post you mentioned Children.
Family search.
For William Watson and Martha J England. all Swansea.
William... B 1912
Thomas J... B 1914
George.... B 1916
Mary A.. B 1918
Lilly M.. B 1920
Brinley J.. B 1923
Eileen... B 1925
Richard .. B 1928.
If you want i can look up their details. let me know.
ivor
hi.
Brinley J Watson and Ursula J M Gatz.
B 1949. Raymond.
ivor
Hi again.
O.K. susanjane, ernest. do you have any reference to the family members Emigrating to the U.S. There is a possibility that Thomas J and George Emigrated in 1944.It would appear that William Watson Snr was born in 1890, married Martha J England in 1911 (mar q) and there is a record of a William Watson age 61 (B.1890) emigrating to The U.S in 1951.
There is a record of George Watson Marrying a Margaret A Davies from Neath in 1938.
I am going to keep looking at these folks as this is now quite interesting. If this is your William C Watson is it possible that he may have gone to the US for a while? as i said interesting
ivor
STOOOOOOPPPPPP!!!!
Ok, with Clive Hughes I checked the RWF Enlistment Register at the RWF Archive this morning. We obtained the following detail:
Full Name: William Christopher Watson
Born: 6/9/1911 - No place of birth shown
Enlisted on a 12yr engagement 7/5 So 7yrs colour service. Then a further 5yrs on the reserve.
16th June 1938 He was transferred to the army reserve. So he still had 5yrs potential service to complete at that point, if required.
Obviously mobilised in 1939, at the onset of WW2
24 Sep 1939 Appointed/Posted to 341st MG Centre Guernsey
Later re-transferred back to RWF (4th Bn)
17 May 1942 T/D(Temp Detached?) to the Welch Regiment
26 May 1942 Docs(documents) to Exeter(Administrative District HQ for the Welch Regiment perhaps).
Notes:
No further entries after Exeter, so we can assume he was then being administered by a Non - RWF Unit, who later would have managed his final discharge. (Bob/Keith does that sound right?).
I have informed the family, they will log in later today to gather the information.
The red pen concerns me somewhat. Not sure if its transference from another page. I have re-checked CWGC.
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3637&stc=1
Hi.
Al.
my posts are in response to a request, by Sue in posts 115 and 118.
The William C Watson you are referring to would appear to have been born Birmingham Area as the Birth is registered West Bromwich. I believe this chap may have been referred to in earlier posts.
ivor
Isn't there also a Watson born in Neath in the final qtr of 1911? or have they obtained that certificate.
We understand it, do the family?
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3638&stc=1
Hi again.
I agree but in this case we have the names of both parents which match with my info. Family search does not give me any alternatives for WATSON/ENGLAND.this is a quite rare surname.Also the wedding in 34 ties in with the record of the trip back from Gib.
It is quite possible that our Swansea Family had relatives in Neath, as,if my info is correct then George Watson (22) married into a Neath family.
On the info we have on here this is the best shot. we just have to await further info.
ivor
Names of both parents? I don't think we do Ivor? I thought they were merely suggestions? Not definite's. Apologies if i'm wrong on that. Have we seen a document, where the maiden name is England is directly linked to our man?
Looking through Ancestry, one thing that concerns me is a lack of any suitable candidate who was born in the Third ¼ of 1911. Likewise on the death lists, same issue. Maybe i will get the archive to re-check the entry…in case i've mis-read it.
hi.
in post 105 sue refers to Watson/England marriage 1911.Confirmed be FreeBMD and Family search. in post 111 she mentions 7 Children, Family search has 8, well ok. possibly not a problem.
William died age 42 in 1954 confirmed by FreeBMD as with Brinley J Death Sept q 64 age 42.
With regard to documentary evidence, no we do not, i have based my findings on Sue's info. at the moment i can not do anything else. unfortunately Watson is a common name in Glamorgan and Swansea in particular. at the moment this guy fits a lot of Sue's questions.
using a search Mar 1910 to Dec 1912. FreeBMD only lists 3 William C Watson.
our West brom guy mentioned earlier
William C Sept q 1910 Pontyprydd
William C Dec 1911 Neath, Mothers Maiden name Jones.
as you say not many options. so until we get some more or different info for now i will stick with what i have.
ivor
Isn't there also a Watson born in Neath in the final qtr of 1911? or have they obtained that certificate.
We understand it, do the family?
In an effort to move this thread on and to prevent the family chasing their tails. I've obtained the certificate for the Neath man. It is our William Watson born 6 Sept 1911. As per the RWF Enlistment Register.
The family can now apply for his death cert and then his service record.
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3643&stc=1
Hi Al.
Puzzle time. I have been looking for a Date of Death for the 1911 man with no luck. i have a record of a W.C. Watson death age 39 Pontyprydd but i am unable to confirm this with other sources.
But with regard to this guys Service Record, is there anything after the 1942 entry. did he leave ?
ivor
We think he transferred to the Welch Regiment.
Hi all.
i have read through this thread 3 times in the last 24 hours to try and make some sense of the info.now that my headache has gone maybe somethings make some sense.
But first i need an opinion from John. much earlier in the thread we had the Death Certificate of William Charles Watson B 1910 died 1950 age 39 of Exhaustion, Status Epilepticus., now, john, with your knowledge of these matters, could this have been caused by his occupation. and just out of interest is Epilepsy Hereditary?.
The reasoning behind this is that we have 3 men who died at a young age. the one above and 2 of the Swansea Watson's. William C. D1954 age 42 and Brinley J. D1964 age 42. As i can not find any Military records for these guy's is it possible that they were in reserved occupations,eg Coal Miners. or similar.or were they possibly exempt on health grounds.
O.K. with regard to the Neath, actually Aberavon William Christopher. it would appear that his father William Watson B1875 married a Margaret Williams in 1910 also at Aberavon. This now raises some interesting questions. Whilst i am in agreement with Al on this. i can not find any Record of his death within U.K. records.But i have seen a Death Record from New York of a William age 77 dying in 1988. a problem occurs here with possible wedding's i have a William C marrying a Doris Williams in Swansea in Jun 1934. and a William C marrying an Ann E M James in 1958. Hmmm.
But i also have a Record of a William C Born 1911 Neath,Migrating to the U.S in 1943.
any ideas anyone.
ivor
I'm not sure what your asking Ivor? I assume you accept William C Watson born in the Neath Registration District is the correct man. His details match the RWF Enlistment Record I copied at the archive.
In which case the only question remaining, is where did he die….is that correct?
Can you show us the detail of the guy emigrating to the US in 1943 please?
Al
Baconwallah
29-11-2014, 16:33
But first i need an opinion from John. much earlier in the thread we had the Death Certificate of William Charles Watson B 1910 died 1950 age 39 of Exhaustion, Status Epilepticus., now, john, with your knowledge of these matters, could this have been caused by his occupation. and just out of interest is Epilepsy Hereditary?
Epilepsy in most of its variants is caused by brain damage. Hereditary epilepsy does exist but is rare.
The damage may have an external cause (accidental or intentional poisoning, mechanical trauma) or an internal cause (reduced cerebral circulation). Some external causes are in my opinion self-inflicted (drugs, booze).
The most extreme sort of epileptic seizure, the status epilepticus, will cause death through exhaustion, unless aggressively (and immediately) treated.
John
But i have seen a Death Record from New York of a William age 77 dying in 1988. a problem occurs here with possible wedding's i have a William C marrying a Doris Williams in Swansea in Jun 1934. and a William C marrying an Ann E M James in 1958. Hmmm.
But i also have a Record of a William C Born 1911 Neath,Migrating to the U.S in 1943.
any ideas anyone.
ivor
Hi Ivor,
Regarding the William Watson who sailed to the US in 1943. I have him on FMP as a Marine Engineer residing in Essex. Unlikely to be our man, purely because of the trade stated although you do mention he's from Neath. FMP doesn't show that:
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3651&stc=1
Regarding the marriage in 1958 of William C Watson to Anne James. That is worthy of a more detailed follow up.
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3652&stc=1
susanjane
29-11-2014, 18:30
Really pleased to see that we have progressed on this again. Thanks Al.
I had spent quite some time on it!
I will look at 1911 census and also for possible siblings to William C.
Also possible children from 1934 marriage
Sue
Also possible children from 1934 marriage
Sue
Thanks Sue, am I right in saying there is not definite link between the 1934 marriage and our man?
Hi
sorry it is not William C just W
William Watson
New York, New York Passenger and Crew Lists, 1909, 1925-1957
birth: 1911 British
immigration: 1943 New York City, New York, United States
Name William Watson
Event Type Immigration
Event Date 1943
Event Place New York City, New York, United States
Gender Male
Age 32
Birthplace British
Ship Name Fort Albany
Birth Year (Estimated) 1911
Affiliate Publication Title Passenger and Crew Lists of Vessels Arriving at New York, NY, 1897-1957
Affiliate Publication Number T715
Affiliate Film Number 6759
GS Film number 002310564
Digital Folder Number 007258661
this is taken from the following link
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22william%20c%22~%20%2Bsurna me%3Awatson~%20%2Bother_place%3A%22new%20york%22~% 20%2Bother_year%3A1942-1944~%20%2Bgender%3AM&collection_id=1923888&offset=20
ivor
Thanks Ivor,
That guys the 1st Engineer, a crew member, he's been at serving at sea for 9 yrs and he's Scottish. The detail appears when you look at the original image.
hi. could be this guyName: William Watson
Event Type: Immigration
Event Date: 1943
Event Place: New York City, New York, United States
Gender: Male
Age: 32
Birthplace: Scotland
Ship Name: Leerdam
Birth Year (Estimated): 1911
Affiliate Publication Title: Passenger and Crew Lists of Vessels Arriving at New York, NY, 1897-1957
Affiliate Publication Number: T715
Affiliate Film Number: 6698
GS Film number: 002310503
Digital Folder Number: 007258600
Image Number: 00236
Citing this Record:
"New York, New York Passenger and Crew Lists, 1909, 1925-1957," index and images, <i>FamilySearch</i> (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2H9S-KCN : accessed 29 Nov 2014), William Watson, 1943; citing Immigration, New York City, New York, United States, NARA microfilm publication T715, National Archives and Records Administration, Washington, D.C.; FHL microfilm 002310503.
HI.
Al.
These 2 records are for different persons. if you look at the set of serial numbers you will see they are different. and Scottish is used quite frequently as opposed to British.
Thats the guy I showed the transcript of in post #136. A Marine Engineer. Not our guy, not after a career in the infantry. Additionally place of birth? Arbroath.
hi.
this is a link too family search and you can see my search parameters.the first 2 entries. were on different ships. but the first is the one i posted earlier.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22william%20c%22~%20%2Bsurna me%3Awatson~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aneath~%20%2Bbirth_ year%3A1911-1911~%20%2Bany_place%3A%22new%20york%22~%20%2Bany_ year%3A1943-1943~
ivor
Again, he's Scottish and serving at sea for 9 years! Our man is Welsh and has spent most of his working life in the infantry. Could he really be 1st Engineer in a few short months?
Also Marriages, assuming he did get married. Neath may not be relevant other than the birth registration. We know he was living in Swansea in 1938.
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3654&stc=1
Al.
the first 2 entries re weddings.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22william%20c%22~%20%2Bsurna me%3Awatson~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aneath~%20%2Bbirth_ year%3A1911-1911~%20%2Bany_place%3A%22new%20york%22~%20%2Bany_ year%3A1943-1943~
ivor
susanjane
30-11-2014, 00:41
The marriage between William senior and Margaret Williams seemed to be in Jun q 1910
William Watsons siblings appear to be
Cyril b Sep q 1914-died before he was 1
Launcelot R Sep q 1916 both Neath
And just possibly Rosina M born Sep q 1910
A Lancelot R marries in Leeds in 1937 to Mary Stead. There is one child born the following year in Leeds.
Gwyneth- a good Welsh name. There are others to Watson and Stead in Yorkshire
1911 census brings this info. living in 6 Wern St Aberavon--as per WW's Birth Cert
William Watson 35 carpenter b N Glamorgan
Margaret 34 married 15 years 5 children all living .Born Briton Ferry
Mary Elizabeth 12 scholar born Neath
Bertie 14 engine cleaner ditto
Diana 8
Trevor 6
Rosina 4--all these born Morriston Glamorgan
I couldn't find the family in 1901 with elder 2 children.
Then I saw why.....
Looking at Freebmd. The older 2 don't turn up as Watson but possibly do as Williams born Neath.
I haven't looked for the 3 younger ones yet
I had another look at passengers lists
I remembered a Policeman-William Watson- in and out of Hong Kong-- born 1911 with wife Doris . Sadly she is Doris Jane not M.[as per the Williams marriage in 1934]
Well I found them again going out sometime after WW2-seemed perfect for him having been there in 1930's.
But then I found them returning from HK in Nov 1945. Had they been interned by the Japanese? Or gone out for interviews?
They travelled together but gave a Scottish address for him and a Cardiff one for her. She was a Nursing Sister.
So vaguely possible except that her 2nd name is wrong.
All for now
Sue
susanjane
30-11-2014, 01:20
Thanks Sue, am I right in saying there is not definite link between the 1934 marriage and our man?
Yes there is nothing conclusive. Does the RWF entry give any next of kin? and/or an address ?
Also his height? I see that the 1st Engineer was 5ft 8ins [that Ivor found]
All the children in 1911 seem to be Williams not Watson --by checking on Births.
Sue
Hi All.
Sorry for my last,deleted post, right info wrong conclusion.(possibly age related Hmmmm)
Right.
as you correctly identified W Watson (post 139) 1st Engineer on the Fort Albany. but my 2nd W Watson (post 141) was a passenger on the Leerdam which was a passenger liner of the Holland America line. which both Pre and Post War sailed between Rotterdam and New York calling at Southampton. I do not know about wartime voyages yet, but i imagine she was operating as a troop ship, between US and UK.
ivor
Yes there is nothing conclusive. Does the RWF entry give any next of kin? and/or an address ?
Also his height? I see that the 1st Engineer was 5ft 8ins [that Ivor found]
No NOK or address Sue. Regarding the height. I think he's quite tall, looking at the photos, certainly in excess off 5'8.
susanjane
30-11-2014, 16:18
Yes I thought that he looked tall in the photos that Ernest sent.
I might have found the William Watson who married Doris in Swansea in 1934.
On outgoing Passengers I Saw him described as 35 in Oct 1948 in the index .But when I looked he was clearly down as 53!! In Commerce
With him was Doris 50 and Lorna 22.They gave a hotel in Walton on Thames as their last address and were on their way back to Buenos Aires and were listed in the Aliens Index.
All citizens of Argentine.
Doris might have been a 2nd wife or maybe they married over in UK to establish a legal British marriage.
There was also a William Watson born 1911/12 who regularly travelled to Gib and Spain[Vigo] with his mother Dorothy. They lived in Solihull so he might be the West Bromwich contender. When the ship went to Vigo she was travelling on to Monte Video.
Then he?? travelled in 1934 aged 23 to The St Vincent Islands as Foreign Correspondent.
Then in 1940 aged 28 to Ceylon-a student. With him Oliver Watson 26 also a student. All very intriguing!!
Sue
Hi All.
First, Sue, Morriston is probably the Hospital.
Al.I agree with you that 4189281 is the William Christopher born in Neath, which partly solves the original question. I believe he married Ann E M James in 1958 in Neath. But it is very odd that i can find No DoD in UK records. details of Ann are also sketchy,for instance, how old was she, and to date i can find no death record for her.
Having looked on a few US Family History Sites, you have to Pay on most and as William Watson is a Very common name in N.York it may be a costly process.if he did emigrate to the US. If he was in the Far East he could have returned there.
I will continue looking for our Neath man but i see very little point in chasing others, at the moment.
ivor.
Hi
a possible candidate . DoB the same. (maybe wishful thinking )
William Watson
United States Social Security Death Index
Given Name: William
Surname: Watson
Birth Date: 6 September 1911
Social Security Number: 253-03-0837
State: Georgia
Last Place of Residence: Macon, Bibb, Georgia
Previous Residence Postal Code: 31202
Event Date: June 1981
Age: 70
to give some idea of the scale of this, this is entry 730ish of 208.000+. it's a bloody popular name William Watson
jvor
susanjane
30-11-2014, 22:20
I have looked for Births between 1905 and 1930 of Ann E M and found several in Wales-and more in England. However none are shown as subsequently married to a James.
In Neath alone a few men, surname James, of approx. the same age as William Watson died between 1950 and 1958.
It seems likely that this was a 2nd marriage for her and that possibly she was about the same age as Watson. With those surnames it is a bit like looking for the proverbial needle...
I had hoped that Ann E M would narrow the search!
I retold the stories of the other W W's purely because I had found them in my searches!
I had hoped to find W W returning to UK in 1938 from India but no luck so far.
Sue
susanjane
02-12-2014, 00:33
Vori
regarding the Death in macon, Bibb, Georgia in Jun 1981 I have found on Georgia Deaths that his 2nd initial is B. Unfortunately this site doesn't give dates of birth.
There is William C died 7 March1987 aged 76 which indicates born around 1911-in Berrien ,Georgia. Again no Birth date given
I have sent you 2 Private messages from this site but they don't show up on my Sent box so wonder if they have arrived.
Sue
susanjane
04-12-2014, 15:40
Launcelot Ronald Watson died Sep q 1985 aged 69 born 1916
Bertie Williams/Watson was 5 in 1901 and 14 in 1911 which could mean a late March early April birthday--if they are giving the right info
Trevor 6 in 1911
In 1901 this looks like Margaret and her first family at Clase, Glamorgan
John D Williams 40
Margaret 30
Bertie 5
May/Mary 3 [she was 12 in 1911 so same time scale perhaps-a few days difference in taking of the census those years]
Evan 1-not on 1911 [Evan John died aged 9 in Jun q 1909 born Jun q 1899]
John D Williams 50 died 1907 in Neath I am guessing on those 2 last entries as there are others.
I will look up John D in other census-1891 because of the discrepancy in age at death and on census]
Bertie was a name used on many Birth registrations
Bertie Williams/Watson would have been 17/18 at the start of WW1.Many Bertie deaths on CWGC . Does anyone have access to Aberavon War Memorial transcriptions that might give a further clue ?
Trevor would have been 35 at start of WW2 but might have been in RWF between the wars
Margaret said that she had had 5 children all living and 15 years married on 1911[but not, I think, married 15 years to William Watson senior]
Sue
susanjane
10-12-2014, 23:43
Valentine Frederick Loos Grevitt is the Boy Grevitt shown diving in one of Ernest's photos in the Gallery - 1930's.
I have found him travelling from Gib in late Nov 1933 and back in late Jan 1934 aged 17. With many other soldiers doing the return trip.
Valentine Grevitt, in an excerpt from his Memoirs, describes arriving at Hangkow Barracks, Kowloon in late April 1936 with the Regiment and his friend Ginger Lewis .Google.
I might sometime transcribe the list of men.
Sue
4189516 Grevitt - He was attested into the regiment on the 9/4/1931.
He left the regiment on the 16/12/1945.....So full war service.
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