J R Davies 5364

Hi,

I'm trying to find more information about my Great Grandfather -
So far I have the following -

From the Commonwealth War Graves Commission -

Company Serjeant Major J R Davies DCM
5364, 8th BN
Died Wednesday 22 November 1916.
Basra War Cemetry.

The information I have so far is that the 8th BN was a service battalion, 40th Brigade, 13th (Western) Division.

June 1915 - moved to Egypt.
July 1915 - landed on Gallipoli.
January 1916 moved to Egypt.
February 1916 moved to Mesopotamia.

I know that he was a regular serving in India before the war. Apart from that I don't know where else he served or which battalion.
I've struggled to find mention of his DCM in Despatches.

Any help would be very much appreciated, I feel I've hit a brick wall.

Many thanks.

Meic

At work at the moment so away from my books, but to hand :

DCM Citation :- For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during operations. Although wounded twice at short intervals, he remained in action until the end of each day, performing his work with courage and skill, and setting a fine example to all with him

DCM in the London Gazette of 20th October 1916.

Also, Mentioned in Dispatches London Gazette 19th October 1916

Richard

There is a J R Davies who has a Medal Index card, giving his date of entry at Gallipoli as 28/6/15. His card is noted as died 20/11/16, but there is noone else that fits except your grandfather. This would indicate that he served with the 8th from their landing at Gallipoli. Was his first name John Robert or Jones R? Both version seems to be indicated by different MICs? Do you know what year he was born?

/Lars

Lars, I have him recorded as John Robert Davies, born in Abergele. Estimated enlistment 1896.

Not sure of date of birth, if you assumed he was about 18-20 when he enlisted, I would guess around 1876 - 78.

Richard/Lars

Thankyou very much for you help.
I think he was John Robert, and I've spoken with my Mother and she believes he was born in Abergele, so that seems to fit the bill. Unfortunately I don't know his date of birth.

Would you know whether he was 1st Bn or 2nd Bn, and how he ended up with the 8th?

I'd also be interested if you could recommend any good books relating to the RWF during his period of service.
I'd be right in thinking if he was 1st Bn I'd be looking into the Boer War, and for the 2nd Bn the Boxer Rebellion?

I managed to find the DCM citation in the London Gazette when I was looking for the MiD for the 19th October 1916, but the search didn't return anything on the MiD, is it the same information as the DCM citation from the 20th?


Many Thanks

Meic

Hi Meic

Unfortunately awards of a MiD carried no citation.

As to battalions, men could hop from 1/RWF to 2/RWF and back again ... and most appeared to have done so.

I have checked some medal rolls for you and can place him with 2/RWF in 1900. He appears on the China War Roll, recorded as a Pte at this time, entitled to the Relief of Pekin clasp to the medal.

He would have been either recalled from the Reserves, or if his time on the Reserve had expired, he could have re-enlisted off his own back. Either way he could have been posted to any of the active service battalions.

He certainly has a very interesting medal group.

Would have been.

1) Distinguished Conduct Medal
2) China 1900
3) 1914-15 Star
4) British War Medal
5) Victory Medal (with MiD emblem)

Hello,
A brief mention is made to the 8th Battalion RWF in the history of the RWF by Major Dudley Ward as follows" 8th Battalion (Service) To the Dardanelles with the 40th Brigade,then 13th Division in June 1915. The Division moved to Egypt in January 1916, and to Mesopotamia in February 1916.
Regards RBD

Many thanks everyone for all your help.

I've managed to find out that my Grandmother was born in 1910, and her father John Robert Davies left for India when she was 12 months, so that would seem to fit with placing him with the 2nd Bn in 1911 in Quetta.

My Mother seems to think that he was a career soldier so I'm still wondering how he might have ended up in the 8th if that was the case, would it be possible that regulars were taken from the 1st and 2nd battalions and posted to the service battalions?

It's all certainly starting to unfold into quite an interesting story.

Thanks

Meic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meic Kelly

My Mother seems to think that he was a career soldier so I'm still wondering how he might have ended up in the 8th if that was the case, would it be possible that regulars were taken from the 1st and 2nd battalions and posted to the service battalions?

---

Hi Meic

There is no doubt he was a career soldier. When he enlisted he would have signed up for 7 & 5. That being 7 years with the Colours and 5 years on the Reserves.

Now it gets a little complicated ..... His service number indicates a circa 1896 enlistment, so in theory his Colour Service would have completed about 1903. However, if a man wished, and the Regiment wanted him, he could be permitted to extend his service to complete to 12 years with the Colours. We are now up to 1908.

From what you have found out about your Grandmothers birth in 1910 (I am assuming this birth was in the UK) and the fact John was back in India in 1911, he must have still been serving. The 1st Battalion were in Ireland in 1910, so would be interesting to know where your Grandmother was born, but certainly fits the time-line.

The really good men could re-engage after the 12 years for such term as shall complete 21 years service. Which would bring us up to 1917 if he lasted the course. . . . He could of course have been discharged before this. Do you know if he was awarded a Long Service & Good Conduct Medal?

I can only speculate now about the service battalion aspect, but to answer your question, yes. Men could be posted to the service battalions. I will post a story of a long serving soldier I have been researching in a minute. Very similar to John's story, and this chap ended up in a Territorial Battalion.

If you have any more info to add to the mix, no matter how trivial you might think it is, we might be able to unravel a bit more.

I am finding this an interesting thread, so keep up the good work on your investigations! Do you have a photo of John by any chance? I would love to see the man behind the medals.

Richard

I was slightly out on John's enlistment - it would have been 1897.

Here is the story of Thomas Aldridge, as promised, another career soldier who enlisted shortly before John.

5306 RSM T Aldridge 7/RWF

Thomas Aldridge was born in Buckley, Flint in March 1876. His father was George Wagstaff and his mother Elizabeth Aldridge. Thomas was a collier by trade and already a member of the Militia when he attested into the Regular Army at Wrexham on the 28th July 1897 aged 21.

In December, after training at the Depot, Thomas was posted to 1/RWF who had just arrived in Devonport after making their way back from India. When the battalion mobilized for service in the Boer War during October 1899, Thomas was destined not to be one of the men to sail on the S.S. Oriental for the Campaign as he was posted to 2/RWF with the rank of Lance Corporal. He was however about to embark on his own Oriental adventure as the 2nd battalion were headed East to assist in the taking over of the territory recently leased from the Chinese at Kowloon. He was there to witness the Union Jack being hoisted on the 16th April. The following month Thomas was promoted to full Corporal.

With trouble brewing in Northern China 2/RWF were ordered to ready 300 men in preparation for intervention in the region. Only A, C & E (and later HQ) companies were to make the trip on board HMS Terrible in June 1900, the remainder of the battalion were to stay in Hong Kong kicking their heels. Cpl Aldridge was destined to be one of these men to stay behind.

Thomas was severly reprimanded and forfeited one days pay for being absent from parade on the 7th November 1900, reporting himself 17 hours and 58 minutes late. Most probably a night on tiles with his colleagues who had recently returned to Hong Kong on the 3rd after their successful campaigning in North China. This misdemeanor did not seem to harm his promotion prospects too greatly, as in September 1901 he was promoted to Lance Sergeant.

In March 1901 B & D coys proceeded to Tientsin for garrison duty and it was here that Thomas was tried by District Courts Martial and found guilty of 1) Drunkenness and 2) Whilst under arrest, escaping. He was reduced to the ranks and is the crime which was to later deprive him of his LSGC medal.

On the 10th November 1902 the battalion embarked on the transport 'Wakool' arriving in Calcutta on the 24th. From here they proceeded by rail to Meerut. By now Thomas had made good for his crimes in Tientsin and had been promoted to Sergeant. A medal parade was held on the 7th December for those who had served in the Boer War and China, and one can only wonder if there was a tinge of disappointment that he had missed out on a medal for either of the campaigns.

The next four years in India were to be relatively uneventful for the men, being garrisoned at places such as Chakrata, Dehra Dun and Agra. Training and maneuvers filled most of their time, and the spectre of disease was never far away. Whilst stationed in Agra in 1905 Thomas was twice severly reprimanded. First in January for irregular conduct, by borrowing money from a private soldier and again in December for being absent from furlough, reporting himself four days and seventeen hours late. For this he forfieted five days pay.

Thomas returned to the UK in October 1906 and after a brief spell at the Depot, was posted back to 1/RWF. August 1907 saw his name recorded for the fifth and last time in the defaulters book, when he was absent from reveille when warned for duty. He eventually reported himself twenty-six hours and twenty minutes late. Another severe reprimand followed and the deduction of two days pay. In October the battalion left Aldershot and proceeded to Cork.

From now on Thomas kept his nose clean and re-engaged to complete 21 years with the colours in April 1908. He married Alice Jane Baker whilst stationed in Cork on the 28th November. The 6th January 1909 saw Thomas posted back to 2/RWF who were still in India and Burma, arriving with his wife at Shwebo on the 10th February 1910. In March he was promoted to Colour Sergeant.

In January 1911 Thomas and Alice had their first child, who was christened John Thomas closely followed by their second in February 1912 who they named Evelyn. In October he was posted to the Sind Volunteer Rifle Corps as an instructor and returned to 2/RWF in April 1913. July saw the birth of his third and final child, Ernest Robert.

After 18 years (1896 - 1914) overseas service 2/RWF made their way back to the UK, arriving on the 10th March 1914. Thomas had by now been promoted to CSM, and in April was posted to 7/RWF. At the outbreak of World War One, whilst most of the troops were heading off to France, Thomas found himself on his way to Egypt, embarking on the 5th November 1914. The Suez Canal was a vitally important supply route for the British Empire, and was garrisoned already. It was imperative that it be defended from the Turks as during the course of the war it was obvious troops and equipment of the Australian, New Zealand and Indian forces would pass this way en route for the Western Front.

He returned to the UK in March 1915 and returned to the Depot before being posted to 4/RWF but remaining in England. In September he was promoted to Acting RSM and rejoined 7/RWF, arriving in Egypt in December 1916.

Thomas was Wounded 26th March 1917 during the First Battle of Gaza. Preparations did not go particularly well for the three RWF battalions that took part in this action (5th, 6th & 7th), their guide who was to lead them across the countryside to their starting positions failed to show up, he got lost! Once he had been found things did not improve as it became apparent he had no idea where he was! Brigadier General Mott took control and successfully lead them onwards on a rough compass bearing. Scarcely across the Wadi Ghazze a thick sea fog rolled in and reduced visibility to only 50 yards. Despite incompetence and nature, the column reached a safe position near Mansura by 8:30am. A delay in bringing up the artillery delayed the intended start time of 10am, and 7/RWF were advised that the attack would begin at noon. However, at 11:30am the 158th Brigade were suddenly ordered to attack.

From 7/RWF war diary (Harker)

"During the advance the enemy's artillery opened a pretty hot shrapnel and high explosive fire on the brigade, fortunately few casualties occurred during that period. This advance was carried out perfectly by the troops .... Each battalion as it completed it's wheel went quickly forward towards its objective till the firing line was held up by heavy rifle and machine gun fire about 500 yards from the enemy's position. .... the battalion nevertheless worked a magnificent advance in splendid order, showing the greatest bravery and determination"

The men managed to capture the labyrinth (a maze of trenches and cactus hedges) south of Gaza, but loses had been heavy and the troops were very much shaken. The RWF battalions remained motionless until 3.50pm. After some good work by Captain Walker in reconnoitering the Turks positions, 7/RWF pushed on again. They successfully captured the next set of trenches, and this momentum started a general advance along the whole line, and by the end of the afternoon all the high ground around Gaza was in the Allied hands.

Alas confusion in the higher command around the locations, and particularly the successes of the 158th Brigade, led to orders to retire. The disappointment can only be imaged in the ranks of 7/RWF. As the Brigade Major wrote in his diary

"orders were orders, and the necessary instructions were sent out to units, and at midnight the withdrawal was begun. As a matter of fact, small parties of heroes had pushed down the slope into Gaza, notably one under Walker and Latham of 7/RWf and never got the order, only coming away at dawn, when they found that there was no one else about ..... The whole remnant of the garrison and Gaza itself was like a large plum, and no one to pluck it ... We got back behind our cliff edge at Mansura somewhere about 2am and literally fell asleep in a heap across each other"

Gaza would have to remain in enemy hands until another day.

For his bravery and professionalism in Palestine - Thomas was Mentioned in Dispatches from Gen. Sir E.H.H. Allenby in the London Gazette of 22nd January 1919.

Thomas returned to the UK on the 6th March 1919 and was posted to 3/RWF. He was discharged to pension on the 20th June 1919, his total service being 21 years and 333 days. By now 43 years of age, he went back to the family home at 26 Tegid Street, Bala, North Wales.

Come 1948 he had moved to 1 Brindley Street, Horwich, Bolton. Thomas sadly lost his wife on the 26th January 1951, and did not survive her for long, as the last correspondence I can trace is a letter from his daughter Evelyn to the pensions department advising them that her father had passed away on the 14th October 1952, aged 76.

Old soldiers don't die. They just fade away.

I have tried to find John Robert in the 1911 census, but so no luck with the military overseas establishment in the right age bracket. Will try again when I'm on a Findmypast subscription.

ATB,
Lars

Hi Richard,

As far as I know my Grandmother was born in Wrexham(certainly UK), I'll confirm that though.
I'm afraid I have no idea what medals he was awarded, apart from what has been deduced here.
Also unfortunately no photo, I was hoping that eventually I'd manage to track one down.

Small bits of information I've been told are that he was apparently the youngest to hold his rank (here I'm assuming CSM?) in the British army at the time.
There is mention of him in a book? Very vague I know sorry.
I'll see what other bits of information I can dig up.

I'm going to have to plead ignorance here, as I don't fully understand the ranks and the order they go.

Thanks Richard for posting the story of Thomas Aldridge, fascinating, and it seems possible that they might have known each other.

Many thanks again, I really appreciate all your help.

Meic