Questions concerning my G/Father's Service Record

I would be grateful if someone could shed some light on an entry in my Grandfather's service record.

He served with 7RWF in WW2 and went with them to Northern Ireland in '39. Prior to them leaving NI in '41 he was taken off strength (posted to 'Y' List 12/05/41) and then onto what I assume was the convalescent depot (it just says 'depot') the next day (there are some injuries listed on his record).

He was eventually re-posted on 29/06/41 to '14th' by the authority of the officer in command 'R. 2 Wing RWF', where he remained until 18/08/42 - long after 7RWF had left for the South of England.

He was transferred to 31RIF until they were disbanded in 1943. He was then posted to 21st Army Group (no further details of Corps, Brigade, Division or Unit available) in England where he recieved Lloyd Carrier training (Landing Craft,Infantry) at the Northern Command Vehicle School. He remained with 21 AG until August 1944 when he was granted leave on compassionate grounds.

My questions are as follows: -

What was the '14th'? I can find no record of any divisional unit that begins with that number that served in NI during this time (and the 14th Army, Brigade or Armoured Division would be out of the question)

What was 'R. 2 Wing RWF'? A 'wing' is something (with my very basic knowledge of the forces) I always connect with the RAF?

So, any ideas folks?

Many Thanks.

Daniel Murphy
(Grandson of 4191888 Fus J Murphy RWF & RIF)

I cannot find any reference to a '14th' in Northern Ireland either. The nearest I can get is set out below. No doubt one of our resident historians will be able to come up with a more authoritative explanation

72nd Infantry Brigade
- Served under NI District from 21 Jan. 1941 to 1 May 1942, under BTNI from 1 May 1942 to 14 May 1943 and under NI District from 15-25 May 1943.

13th Btn., The Royal Welch Fusiliers - Till 24 Sept. 1942 (Left for England on 14/15 Sept. 1942.)

Source: The War Rooms

With regard to 'R. 2 Wing RWF', I would hazard a guess that it would be his Records Wing, the equivalent of the old Manning & Records Offices, responsible for postings, promotions etc.

OK, thanks for your help.

This is very interesting.

I had assumed, out of ignorance, that the depot was in Northern Ireland but if it were in Wrexham this may link up with what I may subsequently find out about 14RWF, whose existence I was unaware of until now.

Also, although I made a slight error on my original post - it was 30RIF he served with, there is an entry for '31st' immediately after "14th" and just prior to his transfer to 30RIF.

So, you've provided me with some excellent information there for me to chase up. I'll let you know how I get on. Also, I'll be happy to email you the scanned images of his service record, just not this evening as I'm off to bed.

Thanks once again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJm

Also, although I made a slight error on my original post - it was 30RIF he served with, there is an entry for '31st' immediately after "14th" and just prior to his transfer to 30RIF.

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OK, there was also a 30th RWF, which was part of the same grouping as the 14th. It existed from 1941 till 1943, when it was disbanded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also I found the 14th Bn, 30th Bn and 31st Bn reference in a RWF regimental book called "That astonishing infantry", the book shows the family tree of the Royal Welch, and clearly states the details I have provided. Use the book as a reference if you contact the museum.

Al

Hi Daniel

Thanks for the Service Record details. Looking at them I can interpret the following:

13/5/41 He was posted to the RWF Depot.

29/6/41 He was posted to 14 RWF

In the latter part of 41 this became 31 RWF, the record shows that your grandfather was serving with this unit(31 RWF), when he was transferred to the Royal Irish Fusiliers on 18/8/42.

I have passed them to Bob(former Chief Clerk), who may be able to pick out other stuff....

Spk soon
Al

Thanks.

Just to confirm he was taken 'off strength' on 12/05/41 wasn't he? That's what I have been told that 'Y' list (and 'X' List for that matter) means.

I am also very intrigued about what he did with 21 Army Group, although I'm not sure there's any hope of telling from this.

I was recently sent his medals, and they awarded him the France & Germany Star in addition to the Defence Medal and War Medal, so he must've done something - particluarly as he had Landing Craft, Infantry training at Northern Command in 1943.

Perhaps Richard may be able to tell you a little about the medals?

Still perusing your grandfather's record. If I find see something that may need interpreting I will post here. I can confirm that he was posted to the 'Y' List on 120341. He also held several ranks, from Fusilier to Sgt. In some cases it was an unpaid appointment, in others he was paid. He also had accrued 84 days' bad service, which he probably had to made good prior to discharge.

The War Medal 1939–1945
was was a British decoration awarded to all full-time personnel of the Armed Forces. Operational and non-operational service of at least 28 days counted between 3 September 1939 and 2 September 1945. The Merchant Navy requirement stated that the 28 days minimum should be served at sea. The recipient was awarded this medal if their service period was terminated by their death, disability due to service or capture as a prisoner-of-war and their service qualified them for one of the stars. Also if the recipient had received one of the stars for a service period of less than 28 days, they were also awarded the War Medal. The UK War Medals were made from cupro-nickel, whilst the Canadian War Medal are made from silver.

France & Germany Star (1944-1945)
The Star was awarded for one day or more of service in France, Belgium, Holland or Germany between 06 June 1944 (D-Day) and 08 May 1945, in direct support of land operations in France, Belgium, Holland or Germany, in the North sea, the English Channel or the Bay of Biscay. The ribbon consists of equal stripes of blue, white, red, white, and blue. The colours represent the Union flag and those of France and the Netherlands but not of Belgium.

Defence Medal
This medal was awarded to service personnel for 3 year's service at home or 6 months' service overseas in territories subjected to air attack or otherwise closely threatened.

You called Al ;)

Interesting that there is no 1939-45 Star. Could tell a story.

Did the medals come to you down through the family ? i,e could it have gone missing through time ? or are these as issued ?

Richard

Hi Richard

I received these about a month ago following an application I placed with the medal office back in September 2004 (fair play, they have been very busy).

As I understand it, the 39-45 star was awarded for any operational service overseas between 3 Sep 39 and 8 May 45. His formative service during WW2 was in Northern Ireland.

Dan.

Hi Daniel,

Just noticed the following item for sale on Ebay, a booklet detailing the history of the 7th Bn, its not a book that I have seen before, but may be of interest to you or one of our researchers.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/7TH-Royal-Welc...QQcmdZViewItem

Best Wishes

Al

Thanks for the heads up. They've got a copy of this in Newtown Library though - not that I'm tight or anything!

Just on the off chance, do you know if 'Part II Order' books are available for any of the battalions in WW2?

Also, does anyone know if there is a resource available that lists all the 'Army Forms' and their use?