Captain (?) John Jones 2 RWF 1939-1945

Hi gents.

I have what might be a slightly difficult task for you but one that would mean an awful lot if you could dig anything up.

I am trying to track down any information on my Grandfather who served in the 2nd Battalion the Royal Welch during WW2. His name was John Jones (hardly original I know but his story is at least slightly unusual).

I've always been led to believe that he was commissioned from the ranks and ended up a Captain. He would have been between 30-35 years old at the outbreak of the war (or thereabouts). Again there is a suspicion that he was a regular before the war.
John Jones served with the 2 RWF as part of Operation Ironclad. He used to describe to my father the battleship HMS Ramillies shelling the shore and the incredible noise and smoke that almost made it look as though the bloody boat had blown up! I believe he was a Sergeant at the time of Madagascar. I have no idea whether he went on to Burma with the rest of the battalion afterwards. He rarely discussed his war service and I am led to believe that it was a highly sensitive subject with him that he didn't encourage debate in (like most blokes that had seen action and lost friends I imagine).
He was originally from Tywyn (or at least he definately played for Tywyn Bluebirds Football Team as a younger man) and was a Welsh speaker. I believe that after the war he ran a Newsagent. Sadly he died of Motor Neurones disease sometime in the late 60s.

Obviously any assistance that anyone can offer with this one is going to be appreciated more than mere words can describe. There's nothing like knowing about your blood. I was born and raised in London and have little contact with my Welsh family. It's always really bothered me that I know so little about him (I'm a War Studies MA and as anyone knows not being able to talk about your own familes military record when you pretend to be a History buff is a bit slack). I know more about my Great Great Grandad that served eighty years before him in the Connaught Rangers which doesn't seem on to me somehow...

Kind regards

Gareth-Rhys

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

Our main source of info for Madagascar is "The Red Dragon" which covers the RWF from 1919-1945. The author is Lt Comdr Kemp, have a look on www.abebooks.com its out of print, and normally retails 2nd hand from about £25 upwards. It covers the Madagascar operation in some detail. Hopefully one of our members will have a look through, just in case we can find a mention of him. Do you have his service number?

Also Gareth, have a look in "The Vault" on this site. http://www.rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin...y&categoryid=5

There is some stuff from Forum Member vcj123, whose father was a company commander in the 2nd Bn; Major Simmons, who won the MC in the battle. One of the documents is a concert party programme from India, featuring a Sgt Jones DCM! This would have been after Madagascar. Either way the documents give you a small insight into the 2nd Bn at that period.

Finally you may like to read the biography of the then CO Hughie Stockwell written by Jon Riley, which is a great read, and again gives a blow by blow account of the action.

ap1,
Cheers for that, interesting reads, some fabulous memories and history saved for future generations. Such an important thing to maintain. I'll have a nose around for those books too, esp. as Madagascar is a subject I know little about.

I don't have his service number unfortunately, though that's something I'll make a concerted effort to track down now.

If anyone used to have stories told to them by their Grandads/Fathers about mates in the 2 RWF, he had a younger brother called Chris Jones who was captured at Tobruk and held POW by the Italians.

Thanks again mate!

If you have any of his medals the service number will be printed on the edge. Good luck on your quest.
Dilwyn

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Originally Posted by Thom15

If you have any of his medals the service number will be printed on the edge. Good luck on your quest.
Dilwyn

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I think not, unless he had service in the ranks WWI or Waziristan 21-24. British WWII medals were not named, a rather sad pennypinching decision.

One option as Next of Kin is to write to the Ministry of Defence and request his service papers, I think (have not tried it myself) that they will charge for this. Will try to look up contact details.

Another option is to find his commission or promotion details on the London Gazette, but as you say it is not a promising surname for that.

Good Luck!

Without John's service number, its unlikely the service records will be forthcoming. Are you happy Gareth that his full name is John Jones, or is there other initials.

Looking through the WW2 Honours List, The Sgt with the DCM I mentioned in my previous post is either Sgt TJ Jones, this was awarded in 1940, he was probably a 1st Bn guy, possibly to have been later transferred to the 2nd after the evacuation, or Sgt RO Jones awarded at Madagascar(most likely).


http://www.rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin...e&articleid=69

We need to firstly check through Red Dragon, concentrating on the 2nd BN to see if we can identify any SNCO's with the initials J Jones, it's possible his commision may just warrant a mention. Especially if its come through at a time, when other news was not so good. I'm not at home at the moment, so unfortunately I'm unable to do that. In addition, it might be worth looking at the Regimentals Records 1946 onwards, just to see if a Capt J Jones apppears on any of the nominal rolls, immediatley after the war, in a (QM) post(some of our members have that volume).

Finally Gareth, one of the forum members; username Don Matthews is a resident at the Chelsea Hospital. Don fought with the 2nd Bn in Burma from mid 1944 onwards. He just may recall him, especially as he was in authority, Don is a regular visitor to the website, you can contact him via the member list.

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Originally Posted by LarsA

I think not, unless he had service in the ranks WWI or Waziristan 21-24. British WWII medals were not named, a rather sad pennypinching decision.

One option as Next of Kin is to write to the Ministry of Defence and request his service papers, I think (have not tried it myself) that they will charge for this. Will try to look up contact details.

Another option is to find his commission or promotion details on the London Gazette, but as you say it is not a promising surname for that.

Good Luck!

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Cheers Lars. I tried the Army Personnel Office but they wouldn't release any information to me as I'm not direct next of kin, ie, my father is still alive so any information I request would have to have the permission of him. Seemed a little harsh to me.

I've e-mailed my old man to try and see if he has his service number and any additional information, though we'll see if I even get a response. Thank you for your advice, much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by ap1

Without John's service number, its unlikely the service records will be forthcoming. Are you happy Gareth that his full name is John Jones, or is there other initials.

Looking through the WW2 Honours List, The Sgt with the DCM I mentioned in my previous post is Sgt TJ Jones, this was awarded in 1940, he was probably a 1st Bn guy, likely to have been later transferred to the 2nd after the evacuation.

http://www.rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin...e&articleid=69

We need to firstly check through Red Dragon, concentrating on the 2nd BN to see if we can identify any SNCO's with the initials J Jones, it's possible his commision may just warrant a mention. Especially if its come through at a time, when other news was not so good. I'm not at home at the moment, so unfortunately I'm unable to do that. In addition, it might be worth looking at the Regimentals Records 1946 onwards, just to see if a Capt J Jones apppears on any of the nominal rolls, immediatley after the war, in a (QM) post(some of our members have that volume).

Finally Gareth, one of the forum members; username Don Matthews is a resident at the Chelsea Hospital. Don fought with the 2nd Bn in Burma from mid 1944 onwards. He just may recall him, especially as he was in authority, Don is a regular visitor to the website, you can contact him via the member list.

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Thanks ap1 for that, some great advice!

As for other initials, I know the name Charles is a common name in the family so J.C Jones is a possibility. The trouble is that my dad's family all had a habit of being known by their middle names, my dads name is John but he doesn't go by it.

As I mentioned earlier I've emailed my father to try and get any additional information. We'll see where that leads; of course I'll post the full story up as soon as/if I hear back from him. I've got to go to Kew at the weekend for thesis research, so I'll get the 2 RWF files relating to Ironclad and go through it looking for names. They often list senior N.C.O's and officers on embarkation documents, so his name might crop up.

I'll also drop that gentleman a line and see if he can remember him at all. Thanks for that.

Again, thank you to everyone whose offered advice/helpful info. Very good of you and very much appreciated.

Gareth-Rhys

Thanks Gareth, obviously anything like nominal rolls ect that you can copy at Kew would be of great interest to us, we can place them into The Vault to assist other researchers. The war diary for Iron Clad would be a bonus, we already have Kohima lodged.

Cheers
Al

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Originally Posted by ap1

Thanks Gareth, obviously anything like nominal rolls ect that you can copy at Kew would be of great interest to us, we can place them into The Vault to assist other researchers. The war diary for Iron Clad would be a bonus, we already have Kohima lodged.

Cheers
Al

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Yeah I'll gladly get that sorted out for you. I've got a damn good digital camera that I've been saving for just the occasion! I'll be heading down there tomorrow so anything else you gents can think of in the mean time give me a shout. I'm down there at least once or twice a month anyway so if ever any of you lads need something in particular please don't hesitate to give me a shout.

Cheers,

Gareth-Rhys

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ap1

Thanks Gareth, obviously anything like nominal rolls ect that you can copy at Kew would be of great interest to us, we can place them into The Vault to assist other researchers. The war diary for Iron Clad would be a bonus, we already have Kohima lodged.

Cheers
Al

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Hi,
Just to confirm, went up there today and have complete war diary for Operation Ironclad (from initial landing to Operations Stream and Jane), as well as large numbers of nominal rolls for 1943 and 1944. I'm just sorting through them/editing them.

I've submitted the Operation Stream report (action at Majunga, September 1942), and it's waiting approval. God knows if I did the editing right.

Hope it's useful.

Cheers,

Gareth-Rhys

An excellent job Gareth, and a heartfelt thanks for your efforts. I will read through the Ironclad stuff over the next few days. The nominal rolls will be a great asset to us i'm sure.

Have you managed to narrow down the suspects for your grandfather?

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Originally Posted by ap1

An excellent job Gareth, and a heartfelt thanks for your efforts. I will read through the Ironclad stuff over the next few days. The nominal rolls will be a great asset to us i'm sure.

Have you managed to narrow down the suspects for your grandfather?

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No problem, absolutely delighted that I could help you or anyone else looking to track down their past.

As regards me, well there are more questions cropping up than answers unfortunately. The biggest problem that's cropped up is that there are serious question marks over his christian name. We always assumed it was John as we thought my father was named after him, however it's looking increasingly likely that his name was Robert.
If that's the case then the most likely looking candidate is a Sgt. R Jones, 4192085, serving with A Company based on the 39'-45' medal roll for service in Madagascar. I'm aware there's a Sergeant R. Jones (CQMS) No. 3385592 who won the DCM, however there was never any hint of my Grandad winning anything so I'm discounting that.

How common would it have been for an older Sergeant to be commissioned and sent back to the U.K for service in one of the 'cadre' battalions to assist in training? Any ideas?

Why do you think he was commisioned and sent back to the UK?

Hi All

I have been keeping an eye on this thread to see if any further details drop out. Lars' post (#5) was exactly what I would have suggested.

I have been having a run through possible candidates. I have found 338 John Jones' so far that I have been working through ....... since reading the update on Christian names, I have done the same for Robert Jones'. At least 188.

However only 21 so far for Robert John Jones, and only four for John Robert Jones. . .

There could however be others whom I am not aware of. To make real progress, confirming his name would be very beneficial. Also there was mention of WWI service. These medals would be named - and would really open up the door to getting to the bottom of things.

Richard

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Originally Posted by ap1

Why do you think he was commisioned and sent back to the UK?

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My father has a picture of him in officers uniform which was apparently taken sometime towards the end of the war. So unless he was given an emergency field commission he would have been sent back to OCTU in the U.K and assigned to one of the home battalions whilst he underwent officer training.

Not entirely certain how it works though so that might be absolutely wrong. You gentlemen would probably know better than me!

My other Grandad, who was a Signalman (ex-DCLI), went up for officer selection in West Africa in 43' where he was interviewed by his C.O (a Colonel Thomas), another senior officer, and Brigadier Venning who was G.O.C in Ghana who wanted to send him back top OCTU, but he declined it because he thought it was an affront to his dignity as a grammar schoolboy that he wasn't given the commission there and then!

Not sure. I don't even know how common it was for Sergeants to be 'raised up'.

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Originally Posted by Richard Ward

Hi All

I have been keeping an eye on this thread to see if any further details drop out. Lars' post (#5) was exactly what I would have suggested.

I have been having a run through possible candidates. I have found 338 John Jones' so far that I have been working through ....... since reading the update on Christian names, I have done the same for Robert Jones'. At least 188.

However only 21 so far for Robert John Jones, and only four for John Robert Jones. . .

There could however be others whom I am not aware of. To make real progress, confirming his name would be very beneficial. Also there was mention of WWI service. These medals would be named - and would really open up the door to getting to the bottom of things.

Richard

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Thanks for that, kind of you.

I'm very much leaning to him being Sgt. R Jones, 4192085, serving with A Company 2 RWF in early 1943. First of all, I know for certain he was part of Ironclad and would have been a Sergeant around that time. The 1939-1945 medal roll for men serving in 2 RWF who fought at Madagascar names two Sgt Jones' (both of whom have the initial R, and one had the DCM but I'm sure if he'd won that my dad would have told me), the other is the Sgt R. Jones, 4192085 serving with A Company.

If I could associate him with Tywyn or Aberdyfi, or even his age (he'd have to be in his early 30s), it'd practically confirm it.

Thanks for all your help with this guys, it's bloody good of you to even spare a glance at it much less do digging into it for me. I'm just terribly sorry I'm so vague with the information. If my dad does get in touch at any stage I'll post the pictures of him I know are knocking around. Might even have some of him serving with some other old soldiers that could be useful to researchers.

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Gareth-Rhys

Sgt R. Jones, 4192085 serving with A Company.

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Might be back to the drawing board . . .

This mans Christian name was Ronald, his number being an early 1934 enlistment.

Hi,
Just to update you gents on this; I finally managed to talk to my father after God knows how long.

I am now 100% positive on the following bits of information. His full name was Robert William Jones born in 1907. He was definately with 2 RWF at Ironclad and served with the battalion from Durban to Kohima.

I can't get anything firm on his rank at the moment. Will try and dig up some more on that.

I have a few 'possibles':

Cpl R Jones. 4195746

L/Cpl R Jones. 4192578

Hope that helps anyone whose 'in the know' to helping me pin point him.

Cheers

Gareth-Rhys

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Originally Posted by Gareth-Rhys

Cpl R Jones. 4195746

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Was Robert Henry Jones

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Originally Posted by Gareth-Rhys

L/Cpl R Jones. 4192578

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Was Richard Thomas Jones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gareth-Rhys

I am now 100% positive on the following bits of information. His full name was Robert William Jones born in 1907. He was definately with 2 RWF at Ironclad and served with the battalion from Durban to Kohima.

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I have 10 Robert William Jones'

At least 6 of these had left the Battalion before Kohima.

This leaves :

4182808 - All I know he was a Territorial.
4183530 - All I know he was a Regular
4200229 - Joined 5th April 1940, Served 6th Bn, Left 20th February 1946
4204511 - Joined 27th June 1940, left 4th January 1946.

One's number is too low for the DOB, and assuming the other Territorial boy stayed with the 6th battalion, it leaves the possibility of two men from the info I have.

4183530 Would have been a 1920's enlistment and thus too young.

So - If I was forced to give an opinion - Based on the above logic, I would say 4204511 Robert William Jones is the best fit.

Hope this helps.

Richard