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I have just noticed from Rob 60's photos that the Pioneer SNCO (I believe a CSgt) is wearing a BEARSKIN asnd is carrying a SWORD.
When I served in he Bn, only Pioneer WOs worn the aforementioned items, and I was under the impression that this was sill the norm.
I beleive this is true however i will confirm this when we go back to work in a couple of weeks, i will do my utmost to find ouT why the said pioneer snco was wearing the bearskin and carrying the sword.
Jas
My understading is this is an appointment NOT rank and thus should be afforded all due respect.
Sorery DP, bu I disagree.
I can remember John Nye and the great Bill Street wearing yhe same dress as their Pioneers and not wearing he Bearskin and sword until they were WOs.
Dave from has confirmed that the Bearskin and sword will only be worn by the Pioneer WO.
One thing we must remember is that we are new Regiment so some traditions will change.
Hi Jason
Traditons are just that......tradition! If the new Regiment wishes to utilise aspects from outside the antecendent regiments history then it either changes the regiments customs or indeed dilutes them to such an extent that former members don't recognise what is being presented to them.
I can confirm that the only members on a full parde in the RWF who wore a bearskin were Warrant Officers and Commissioned Officers. Pioneer Sgt's/ C/Sgt's were allowed to wear a beard and on ceremonial occassions a sword and their headress was the busby whilst in full ceremonial order.The only non-Warrant Officer on parade who wore a Bearskin was the Drum-Major who could be a Sgt!
These points raised, as many others that have been raised previously in the Forum, is the reason the Chairman of the RWFCA has asked for people to take part in creating a verbal history of the Regiment its because as time passes on little innovations and quirky additions to customs see them change or lost forever.
Hingey
Well said Paul. the traditions of the regiment will live on i understand from various sources.
At this moment in time, I believe the Drum Major to be a Corporal. Whilst he has the privelage to wear the full kit, what chance does he have during Company O group when he has to fight for his platoon when it comes to duties. Come on the 1st Bn, have the sense to at least make him a local Sgt. At least he can go to the Sgt's mess !
Dai
As we speak the Drum Major is now a member of the mess and holds the rank of local Sgt. And to carry on about traditions i am proud to off been a Royal Welch Fusilier and i love all the traditions which made us stand out but that was not the point i was trying to make, The point was maybe it was a tradition of the 2nd Battalion and we have upheld one off theirs like wearing of chevrons on both arms.
When I was a Sgt I had the sword but no bearskin, I only had that once, but the sword was part of the Pioneers sgt's dress.
john nye
So that clears everything up I think. I was part righ bouy Bearskin but wrong about the sword, and for that I apologise.
Do 2 Royal Welsh have Pioneers? And if they do, what is the dress worn by the Pioneer SNCO? Is it the same as for the RRW?
you always looked good in scarlets 'Boss' ,Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnye63
2 Royal Welsh do not have an Assault Pioneer Platoon.
Good to hear that Braz. So the Royal Welch traditions will live on.
To be fair I look good in anything, but thanks any way.
Love it when you're modest Bro!Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnye63
Anita xx
I have been a member of the pnr's since 1994 when it reformed in Haverfordwest, although i have been away from the Bn alot of my career doing Asslt/Pnr roll's, i can always remember Dia Martin wearing the Bearskin every time we done and parrades, he was only a Sgt in those days untill he got out as rank of a CSgt i do believe due to is accident.
i hope this helps a little,
BAMBI
Bambi, you been away from the battlion that long, that we where combat 95, assault boots and not denims, putties & ammo boots.
when Bambi joined.. webbing was white wash leather, he was issued the Brown Bess musket and he got his bear skin from the French Imperial Guard.....
On another note..in the photo gallery theres a photo of Dai when he was the Pioneer Sgt wearing a "Bear Skin" and carrying a sword on this forum....in the 1990 part..
As an ex-Royal Welchmen and an Army historian perhaps I can help here. In the days before Warrant Officers (i.e. 1915) the Bearskin was originally worn by First Class Staff Serjeants and Officers. In those days a 'Staff Serjeant' was a collective term rather like 'Staff Officers' that grouped the senior NCOs at RHQ level (e.g.The Sjt Maj (later 'RSM') RQMS, Musketry Sjt, Armourer Sjt and so on).
In 1915 WO was introduced and the Sjt Maj became the RSM and the (then) 8 (A to F) Rifle Companies (each with a CSjt as senior man) were merged into 4 'double companies (A to D) with the senior CSjt becoming a new appt of CSM with the equally new 'rank' of WO2. The other CSjt became CQMS to mirror image the RQMS at battalion level.
This re-organisation took place throughout the Army with the TA following suit a year later. A a result of this organisation, most but not all of the original First Class Staff Serjeants became WO2 and therefore continued to wear the Bearskin. Others did not and were in effect downgraded in terms of status (not popular at the time!). Of the CSjts at company level, those who becasme the new CSMs were now WOs and got to wear the Bearskin and those who were CQMS did not.
In a nutshell it is Army Historical tradition (by Regulation) let alone RWF tradition, that officers and WOs wear the Bearskin and CSgts and below do not. The only exception to this is the Drum Major (originally and for very many years the Sjt Drummer) who wears the Bearskin by virtue of his 'appointment'. These principles apply to all 'dress distinctions' for the infantry and not just the RWF/Royal Welsh, irrespective of amalgamation.
As Bob has clearly shown traditions in the Army have and always will change, and old soldiers have always stated that it wasnt like that in my day.
Without change we would be still forming squares and fighting in hob nailed boots and red jackets.
Todays changes are tommorows traditions.
Hi Mike
Ha ! I remember many a time the drums formed a square in hobnailed boots and red tunics for a fight, normally in Cardiff or Wrexham,
dai
Dai,
I dont know about form a square but i have hered a few drummers shouting form a circle!!!!!!!!!!
Think you got that a bit wrong Mike (Its Form a Queue the bars open) LOL!!!
read all the comments and as FSP Coy CSM I will endevour to look into this detail of the Pioneer Sgt whilst on parade in full ceremonial dress and as soon as i have been given some clear direction will post my findings on this forum, Scorch you are right both the Drum Major and the Pioneer Sgt are now members of the WOs and Sgts Mess
The Full Dress (Ceremonial Dress) is still going through various Army dress committees.
Having seen the proposed version the Drum Maj (by appointment) will continue to wear a bearskin with plume, as will all Warrant Officer's.
Colour Sergeants and Sergeants will continue to wear the Seal Skin cap with a plume and a proposed new cap badge (similiar to the new R WELSH capbadge of 3 feathers and scroll titled 'The Royal Welsh' instead of the flaming grenade).
So basically, there is no change to SNCOs Ceremonial Dress except for the change in cap badge, which is very good news.