Printable View
Can anyone tell me or confirm the wearing of the collar flash amongst other ranks during the Great War. Particularly whilst at the front. I have so far not found any definitive evidence or photographs to confirm if this occurred whilst on active service during this period.
I want to make sure my Royal Welsh Fusilier Great War interpretation is correct so any advice will be gratefully received.
Regards
Pete Knight
As far as I am aware, until 1900 it was worn only by Officers, Warrant Officers and Staff-sergeants, but in that year orders were received that it was to be worn on the tunic by all ranks of the Regiment. At the time of the First World War (1914-18) Lord Kitchener suggested that the Flash should not be worn because it was an aiming mark for the enemy. King George V overruled him, stating that the enemy would never see the backs of the Royal Welch Fusiliers!
I'm sure that somebody who is more knowledgeable in the history of the RWF will be able to confirm or correct the above!
Click picture to enlarge
http://www.gtj.org.uk/storage/thumbs/253/25375.jpg
Bob,
What can I say superb picture!!
Never a more true word spoken King George.
Thanks for the information my instincts at least were right in wearing the flash, I will now feel doubly reasured when showing the public.
Kind regards.
Hello Pete,
I forgot to thank you and Graham for the lovely time Pat and I had when I "worked" on Grahams RWF display answering questions of the general public, in the Black Country Museum show.I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sorting out our meals etcetera. We both had a lovely couple of days. My regards to www city batts, (including The Warwicks and Worcestershires and you I have looked in at our sites that are now linked.
Regards Don
According to Robert Graves in his book " Goodbye to all That". When he joined the regiment in 1914 the Flash was worn by Officers and Warrant Officers. He makes no mention of other ranks. However Regimental Records Vol 3 Appendix x States:
" Permission to Wear the Flash in Service Dress, all ranks, was given on the 13th May 1915, size 5 inches."
Bearing in mind what I have quoted from Regimental Records, I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a ranker wearing the Flash during the Great War.....Anyone give a more definative answer.
Can I also commend Pete and his colleagues for all the work that they do ensuring fallen members of the regiment are properly remembered on war memorials.
I'm sure that the picture is of soldiers of the Royal Welch Fusiliers wearing the Regimental 'Flash', 1914-18. The man in the front row appears to have cheverons on his sleeve
From 1900 The Flash was only supposed to be worn on Full Tunic. In 1915, it was noted in the House of Commons that RWF Officers were now wearing it on Service(working) Dress. The Under Secretary of State for War gave orders that this was to cease forthwith. Six days later, following protests it was announced:
" This matter has been considered, and authority to wear the Flash with Service Dress will be given for the period of the war".
I have looked at a picture of the 2nd Bn Fifes and Drums taken at a Divisional Show on the 18th July 1917, all wearing Khaki uniforms, and none of them are wearing the Flash.
In "The War the Infantry Knew" by Capt J.C. Dunn, he makes mention on Oct 16th 1916, of a Company Cook with the 2nd Bn, who was promoted to Sergeant and then being allowed to wear the Flash on his uniform.
I may be wrong, but I suspect that only Officers, Wo's and Sgts wore the Flash. Of course it may also be the case that different Bn's chose to interpret the order in different ways.
Gents thanks very much for all the interesting information.
It leaves me in a bit of a quandry now though.
Whilst displaying my Great War interpretation to the public I really want to wear the flash. On the occasions that I have worn it amongst other regiments present,being displayed at living history events it provokes much interest from the general public and as a consequence has led me to meet relatives of Great War RWF veterans which is always useful for the research.
However I pride myself on being historically correct whilst in uniform and displaying the artefacts in camp.
I will be wearing the flash at Zonnebeke Belgium next week. If this is historically incorrect as I portray a corporal then I will not wear it. More out of respect than anything else but secondly I would not want the public to be mislead during my discussions.
Any definites would really help. The photograph posted by Bob appears to show other ranks wearing it.:confused: They also strike me as possibly being new recruits. Some are at ease ( the Civvy and back row middle) some to attention and one at the front appears to be a mixture of both any further thoughts?
Regards
Don thanks for the kind words and encouragement. I am arranging a major event for May Day bank holiday 2007 at Whittington Barracks in Staffordshire. I am hoping to attract over 100 Great War re-enactors from all over europe. It would be nice if we could have a display dedicated to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers during the Great War. Dad will be attending and I would like it if you and maybe some comrades interested in this period of RWF history could attend.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard@jungle1810.wanadoo
Speak soon
Best wishes to Pat and yourself.
Regards
Hello Pete,
All things are possible for you Graham & Maureen. I will do all I can to help.
Regards Don
I think it will probably be the RWF Museum that gives the correct answer Pete. Several of the Museum Volunteers are supporters of this site, including Joe Hughes and Glyn Hughes. They may be able to find out on our behalf. On the other side of the coin, as you say, the Flash does produce a lot of interest, which is good for the Regiment and any group linked to it.
Pete, hopefully, the Regimental Museum will be able to provide authoritative clarification regarding the wearing of the Flash by other ranks. I do agree with you, though, that the photograph does appear to show other ranks wearing it. The soldier on the right-hand side of the front row appears to be either a LCpl or a CplQuote:
Originally Posted by Birmingham Fusilier
In the meantime, and until a definitive answer is provided, I would encourage you to wear the flash at Zonnebeke next week. I do not think for one minute that it would be disingenuous or misleading and I know from personal experience of attending various Army and Navy Presentations to the public how much interest the Flash triggers from the public.
Hi PeteQuote:
Originally Posted by Birmingham Fusilier
What kind of display are you looking to put on ? May 2007 could be enough time for me to earn a kitchen pass from the OC aka ‘she who must be obeyed.’ :bat:
Please pass on my best wishes to your mum and dad also. :)
Was the flash worn on formal occasions by ORs ? as the picture shows some one in a bowler, pos this was a funeral or maybe a church parade away from the front.
Interesting to note the Flash is worn under the collar and not over as we do today.
The event will involve representative groups from all over Europe. There will be living history encampments showing the difference between British/Commonwealth, German, Kuk, French. This will involve show and tell displays on specialist subject such as the varying types of gas mask, hand grenades, uniforms and equipment and how they evolved throughout the war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Ward
There will be a continuosly occupied trench (the Coltman Trench) with small scale demonstrations of trench raids and the like as well as showing the ordinary mundane stuff the soldiers went through at the front.
On a larger scale there will be arena displays with commentary. This will show gas Drill, musketery and field manoevres and make comparisons between the differing armies.
In addition I want as many interested parties as possible to offer up any type of display. It can be anything general to more specialised presentations, medal collections uniform displays army recruitment etc. I am open to anything at this stage in the game and I have much to organise.
I agree Bob, that they are "other ranks", however the date could have been after the great War, that photo could have easily been taken in the early 1920's, unless you happen to know the date and location. What i'm pointing out is that in all the battlefield photos I've looked at, from the Great War I have not seen any OR's wearing the Flash.Quote:
I do agree with you, though, that the photograph does appear to show other ranks wearing it. The soldier on the right-hand side of the front row appears to be either a LCpl or a Cpl.
I would also encourage Pete to wear it, as I previously mentioned Regimental Records comments that it was sanctioned for all ranks in 1915. By the time the Wrexham War Memorial was unveiled in 1924, all the Other Ranks pictured at the unveiling ( many of whom had fought at France and Flanders) were wearing on their Khaki Dress, as they had previously worn since 1900 on their Full Tunics.
Some interesting thoughts gentleman and your posts have certainly assisted my thought process.Quote:
Originally Posted by alpoole1
A couple of points I have picked up particularly looking at the photograph. If it is Circa 1915 which I have an inclination to believe it is the belts they are wearing make sense and would I think dismiss the theory that this is in any way a church or funeral parade. My reasoning behind this is that the only 08 belt I can see is an early pattern parade belt with no buckles for attaching the entrenching tool. The other members in the parade have (although it is difficult to tell in this photograph) leather belts. This ties in with the shortage of 08 web during this period and the introducion of leather webbing as leather was a material in abundance.
Finally any formal parade would have seen some uniformity with the parade belt worn. I stiil have a tendancy to think these are realtively new recruits. Particularly the way the "Tommy on the right rear has his trousers tucked tightly into his puttees. This would have been very uncomfortable whilst carrying out any physical tasks I know I wear them.
This has been a very interesting discussion and I am glad to recieve the blessing of the forum members to wear the flash.
I look forward to hearing more views.
Kind regards
Hello Pete,
When I was in Brum with you and Graham, I mentioned to you that the Flash was worn over the collar during my service. I have since remembered in a Video I have of life of Sassoon and his stay in Craiglockhart with Dr Rivers.He wore the Flash under his collar. I thought at the time it was an error by the film makers. But I have since come to the conclusion that this was the way the Flash was worn during this period.and not an error, as I originally believed it to be.
I have also read some where that the second RWF were doing a guard for General French at a big hotel which was his RHQ just after he wanted the Flash dispensed with, and to the best of my knowledge the Flash was worn on this Guard. It appears Gen French had had second thoughts because he did not say any thing about the Flash to any one, but gave a knowing smile to all concerned.I can only say to you "Wear the Flash with pride" when you do these exhibitions.
Regards Don
Thats correct Don, it was mentioned By Capt JC Dunn in his book, "The War The Infantry Knew"Quote:
Originally Posted by richard@jungle1810.wanadoo
Thanks Don, The weekend 21st-23rd April at Zonnebeke Belgium will see a major Great War living history weekend.
There will be 137 re-enactors covering various regiments. French, Belgium, German, Italian, Austrian, British.
Amongst them will be one lone 2nd Battilion Royal Welsh Fusilier Corporal wearing the black flash with pride.
Thanks to all who have assisted me with this matter it's been a great encouragement.
Regards
Hello Pete,
Good for you !
Regards Don
Thanks Don.
I am always looking for great war ephemera particulalry anything relating to the RWF. Little things that make a camp display more authentic like original newspapers, maps, everyday items of the period. If any one has any such items for sale or donation please let me know.
Regards.
Hello Pete,
I will keep my eye open for you re ephemera (RWF) Have fun on you next exhibition.
Regards Don
Cheers Don,
I've just finished polishing my brasses for the weekend, and re-laced a new pair of repro boots.
The boots are a fantastic copy smooth out brown leather, as per overseas issue. It's heartbreaking polishing them black though, as they only had black polish.
It's funny as I have spent 5 years polishing a black pair with brown polish to get the same effect.
Regards
Hello Pete,
Nothing is easy in the P.B.I. Soldier on son!
Regards Don
Hi all
Living so close to Whittington Bks (and having been married there nearly 31 years ago!), I'd like to go and see the displays etc. Times, dates, costs please.
Thanks
Take care
Anita xx
It is in the early stages of organising at the moment. Dates are May day bank holiday 2007. Entrance fee tbc and arranged with the Staffs's museum. Several european Great War Living history groups are already signed up. Once I return from Belgium this weekend I will be able to paint a bigger picture regarding the whole event.
I will keep you posted.
Regards
Many thanks, look forward to the info. I'll ensure its popped into my diary.
Enjoy your break.
Take care
Anita x
Finally got back from an arduous weekend Monday evening.
The weekend was a great success with some very authentic and preficient groups attending. There was even a Dutch representation which you don't often see.
Saturday afternoon saw a dog fight with 3 Bi-planes overhead. I spent most of my time occupying the trench.
I did of course wear the flash which drew much attention.
On sunday 20 Tommies marched from Zonnebeke to Tyne Cot Cemetary to pay our respects. A wreath was laid the appopriate words spoken and the last post sounded.
At the event I met 2 Australians who had travelled from Tasmania and had spent the last 3 weeks walking from the Somme to Zonnebeke. They were in full ANZAC kit and carried everything they needed in their 08 Webbing. Living on Iron rations and with the walking meant they had averaged a 2 stone weight loss each. They finish their pilgramage on 4th May. I have been invited over to a Military Tattoo they are organising in Australia for next year. One that I will have to take the wife to if I can talk her into I think.
We next embark for the Somme for the commemoration of the 90th Anniversary. A lot of the detail is concentrating on the Pals battalions Bradford Pals being one. After that the Royal Gunpowder Mills at Waltham Abbey.
So lots going on as you can see. I am still looking for "new recruits" to join me and wear the flash, and carry the torch for the honour of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers of the Great War.
Regards
My apologies to those of you that have read this already; the original version appears to have disappeared from the Military History Forum!
Whilst looking for information about Clr Sgt A M Boreham, I came across a reference to the Flash. The source of information is the book, "THE WAR THE INFANTRY KNEW 1914 - 1919"
[October 16th] "Tactical Use", we were told that the Rossignol Wood affair was just to have been a feint: as things are Fritz is having to shorten his line.
The C.O. has overhauled our administration. H.Q. details are now organized as a fifth company, except for pay. (The scheme lapsed with Colonel Crawshay's command. It was set up throughout the Army after the War.) Part of the scheme was the reappointment of a sergeant-cook. For over a year we have had no such sergeant; Companies looked after their own cooking, and great inequality resulted. The most competent of the Company cooks was paraded, told that a leveling-up of the cooking was wanted, and asked, "Do you think you can do it?" "Yes, sir, and shall I be entitled to wear the Flash?" -- presto, in a breath. Half an hour later he was going round the cookers wearing sergeant's stripes and a Flash. Such is the Regiment's pride in its Flash; and Atkins's pride in any distinguishing mark. (Since the end of the War all ranks wear the Flash.)
Thanks for the additional info Bob.
I think for the time being and examining all the evidence so far I will continue to wear the flash. The alternative for me is to add an extra stripe or possibly a lanyard representing the increase in rank. I have been meaning to get in touch with the regimental museum to gain a little additional credence and approval to wear the flash: is Colonel Crocker still there?
Regards
Pete
Arrived back from an exhaustive trip to the Somme for the 90th Anniversary. I joined the March to the Pals. On Sat morning we marched down to the sunken lane just below Hawthorn Crater wreaths were laid and our German comrades moved slowly down to our position where a few words were said. The names of fallen Germans and Commonwealth soldiers was read out and the last post sounded.
Moving back to the thread whilst I was over there I met one of our American Friends who knew more than any one on this planet about the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Particularly the flash. "Why are you wearing that" he said pointing as if I had something offensive on my tunic. Our conversation didn't last long and he never spoke to me again for the rest of the weekend. I really would like a definative answer regarding other ranks and the wearing of the flash, otherwise I will have to wear an extra stripe which I don't want to do.
Any help gratefully recieved.
Regards
Hi Pete,
I still think that it was only Sgts and above who were wearing it......
I would mention that when the Merger of the RWF and RRW was first being planned, I certainly heard mention that one of the merger proposals was that they would revert to previous times and Only Officers and Snco's would wear The Flash. This was quickly binned.
I think the museum is the only way to get a definitive answer.
PS...On the subject of Access Denied....why can't I get into your Citybatt site?
Thanks Alan,
I was in the middle of revamping the City Batts website as the group is all but disbanded. We have joined the Great War Society in order to sustain our activities. In the meantime we have developed a BT fault that has lasted the last fortnight so I can not upload the new info.
Regards
Looking on the museums website in their frequently asked questions regarding the flash they state the following "Until 1900 it was worn only by Sergeants and Officers "
Does this then mean that after 1900 there were other orders? or that other ranks wore the flash after 1900?
I have posted an e-mail to the museum and will await their reply in anticipation.
Regards
I finally have that definitive answer from the Museum. I have copied the reply below.
Dear Mr Knight
Thank you for your message re. the wearing of the Flash during the Great War, I’m sorry not to have got back to you sooner.
The official line is that in 1900 the Flash, previously worn only by Officers, Warrant Officers and Staff Sergeants, was approved by Queen Victoria for wear by all ranks of the Line Battalions in full dress.
In November 1923 King George V wrote to the War Office, via his Private Secretary, to say that “The wearing of the tunic….having been abolished…….the Flash should be worn on all Ceremonial and Church Parades and when walking out”. This was ratified by the Army Council in January 1924 with an instruction approving the Flash by other ranks (Regular and Territorial) on ceremonial parades and when walking out.
It appears then that the wearing of the Flash by ORs with service dress was not authorised for 1914-18, and the few photographs I have seen here of the backs of men’s service dress bears this out. A sample is attached. However it is always unwise to be categoric, particularly after 90-odd years.
I hope this helps!
Brian Owen
Curator
When this subject was first posted I didn't know that it would become such an issue. However, I'm glad that it did; I've learnt something I never knew about the 'Flash', and I'm sure that others have too.
So well done, Pete!
Thanks Bob,
Anything that raises awareness of the regiment and it's history is always a good thing.
I was never in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, but I feel very close to the regiment and a strong loyalty towards it through my Grandfathers connection. I attended the burial of Private Clarke a few years ago who was killed at the Red Dragon incident where my Grandfather won his MM.
Regards
Richard I have not been active on the forum for a while now. Due to problems beyond my control the May Day event did not procede.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Ward
I have organised an event at the Black Country Living Museum in Dudley on the 13th and 14th October. If it's not too much short notice you would be welcome to come along and participate in the display. Dad is coming along too.
I also extend the invite to anyone who would like to participate in a Royal Welsh Fusilier Display.
The weekend consists of various nationalities of the Great War. There will be Brittish Tommys, French Poilu, Russians, German Ir28 and K14, Anzac displaying equipment and uniforms types etc. if any one is interested in coming along please let me know.
Regards