Hello all,
I only know that my uncle William died Aug 31 1918 "killed in action". Is there anymore I can learn? He was in Training Res Royal Welch Fusiliers when he joined up. his # being 26252.
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Hello all,
I only know that my uncle William died Aug 31 1918 "killed in action". Is there anymore I can learn? He was in Training Res Royal Welch Fusiliers when he joined up. his # being 26252.
Hello,
I have done a quick check and find both some possibles and problems with tracing a William Burns 26252 RWF who is supposed to have been killed on 31 August 1918.
Firstly, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission do not show a Royal Welchman with these exact details for the the First World War. There was however a William Alfred Burns who was Private no.266833, in "C" Company of the 9th Battalion, RWF, who died on 22 March 1918 and has no known grave, being officially commemorated on Bay 6 of the Arras Memorial. Arras, France. He was aged 28 and the son of Mrs Edith Burns, and the husband of Mrs Isabella Burns of 25 Grey Street, Abbey Hey, Gorton, Manchester.
The publication Soldiers Died in the Great War states that he was born and resident at Gorton, and enlisted in Manchester, and was killed in action.
Changing it to a 31 Aug 1918 date search for W. Burns (any unit), I came across only the following:
53688 Pte W Burns, 18th Battalion of The York and Lancaster Regiment. Date of death 31 Aug 1918. Buried in Plot III, Row H, Grave 9 of the Ypres Town Cemetery Extension, Ieper, Belgium.
No family details on that site, but the publication Soldiers Died in the Great War states he was indeed a William Burns, born at Cheadle, Cheshire, and enlisted at Ashton-under-Lyme, Manchester, and was formerly no.58456 in the RWF, and was killed in action.
Cross-checking with the National Archives Medal Cards online confirmed that he had previously served in a Theatre of War as Private 58456 in the RWF. So he's a possibility.
Just as a final check, the medal cards online state that the only Royal Welchman with the number 26252 in WW1was a Private Daniel Sides.
If you can check your family details with the above records, does any of them stand out as a likely candidate?
Clive Hughes
Hi David, welcome to the Forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive Hughes
Further to Clive's response, the only extra info i can provide relates to:
12252 Private Burns. WJ
RWF
Who was gazetted for a Mention in Dispatches on the 13/7/1916 page 6948
Note the similarities of the soldiers service number
Can you tell what your original source for the information was ?
Clive and ap1,
Thank you both so much. W Burns from Cheadle is with certainty my uncle. I thought he had no resting place. The story was that nothing was found of him. It's nice to know where he lays. I will try to research the circumstances of his death. I was told his gun took a direct hit from a German gun. Thank you again David Burns
Hi David.
Slight change of plan, same man, slightly different details.....but with supporting documents!!!!!
I've found the service records on Ancestry for a William Burns RWF/ York and Lancs killed in action on the 31 Aug 1918.
The initial details are:
William Burns
Age: 17
Birth Year: abt 1899
Residence: 10 Back Cecil St, Mossley
Regiment Name: Training Res Royal Welsh Fusiliers
Regiment Number: 26452
Document Year: 1916
Number of Images: 20
There are 20 pages within the document. Much is unreadable. Clive for your information the document number commences 13507. It may take some of the members with a more detailed knowledge to pick through it
Just to confirm we have the right man, below is an extract from his medical history at the point in 1917 when he moves from the RWF Training Reserve battalion to a fighting battalion. It shows his old service number 26452 crossed out and replaced with his new number 58456
[tmb]http://rwf-forum.co.uk/gallery/files/3/burns2.jpg[/tmb]
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...off=2+32+33+34
Also here is the casualty form 103b that confirms he joined the 18th Y & Lancs on the 5th August 1918 and died on the 31 Aug 1918
[tmb]http://rwf-forum.co.uk/gallery/files/3/burns3.jpg[/tmb]
Attached is the opening page of the service record
This document dated the 10th March 1919 deals with Williams medals. It states they are to be sent to his father Cornelius Burns at:
White lea Cottage
Greenfield
Oldham
Interestingly in other documents his mother is shown as his next of kin in relation to payments/allowances. She lives at the same address
[tmb]http://rwf-forum.co.uk/gallery/files/3/burns5-2.jpg[/tmb]
It is amazing for me to see these documents after all these years. Cornelius was of course my Grandfather his wife was Isabella. Another thing of great interest to me was the address of White lea Cottage. My Dad often spoke of White lea and I thought it was a Farm. Now I see it was a cottage on a farm and that makes a lot more sense to me now.My Dad moved to the South of England during the depression and over the years all contact has been lost with the family in the North. Again thank you David BurnsQuote:
Originally Posted by ap1
I can confirm Isabella Burns, is listed within the records as Williams mother. The only other detail I can provide is Williams Medal Index Card, which will confirm which medals he was entitled too:
[if]http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=1730258&queryType=1&resultcount =1[/if]
It will cost £3.50 to download, and we will be happy to answer any queries you have.
Some small detail about the 18th Y & L :
18th (Service) Battalion
Formed in Margate on 11 June 1918, absorbing the cadre of the 2/7th Bn, the West Yorks.
11 June 1918 : attached to 41st Brigade, 14th Division.
The only thing to do now is to make that family trip to his grave.
A little more information is also available from the National Archive online. The link below will allow you to download the 18th Bn's War diary for the period Aug-Oct 1918. Again at £3.50
This may tell you where his battalion was when he was killed. Although its unlikely that he will be named. Can you let us all know how you get on David.
[if]http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7801083&queryType=1&resultcount =17[/if]
I will download the diary and will certainly let you know what I found.Thank's a lot David.
The deed is done. As you thought it dosn't mention my uncles name but it places the Regiment in St. Jan Ter Biezen. Thank you all David.
I have been able to attempt a reconstruction of William Burns' service career based on his Soldier's papers, by kind courtesy of ap1 who made the images available:
Born Cheadle, Cheshire about ?November 1899. Son of Cornelius and Isabella Burns. Address in October 1916 was 10 Back Cecil Street, Mossley.
Attested for the Army on a Short Service engagement, at Ashton under Lyme on 2 October 1916 aged 17 yrs. 11 months. Transferred to the Army Reserve next day, and returned to his normal civilian occupation as an "Assistant Maker Up" or "Maker Up - Assistant, ?Dye Works" (last two words unclear). In effect this means he was conscripted when his 18th birthday was due, and after being processed was sent home to await call-up.
His medical description states he was 5 feet 3 inches in height, with chest measurement 35 inches fully expanded. No distinguishing marks. There are notes that his eyesight was classed as 3/60 to 4/60 and maybe a vague reference to glasses?? He was unmarried and had no previous military service.
The next event was his call-up, when 135 days later on 15 February 1917 he was appointed to the 63rd Training Reserve Battalion and given an identity number 26452. The 63rd had been formed out of two Royal Welsh Fusilier reserve battalions, the 18th and 20th. Sometime in the next few months this unit was retitled the 226th Graduated Battalion of the Training Reserve; and on 23 July 1917 it was attached to the 203rd Brigade, 68th (2nd Welsh) Division which was stationed at Halesworth in East Anglia, moving to Yarmouth that winter.
On 27 October 1917 the 226th was again retitled the 51st Graduated Battalion, Welsh Regiment. Burns' papers seem to indicate that he was formally transferred to this unit on 1 November 1917; though as indicated above it was in theory the battalion he had joined on call-up. There is a note of his being examined by a Travelling Medical Board at Great Yarmouth on 29 November and possibly graded "B1", as this annotation appears on the Medical form. If so, this category was officially described as: “Can see to shoot or drive. Can undergo considerable exertion, not involving severe strain. With moderate degree of disabilities. With defects of locomotion. Base or garrison service at home or abroad”.
He must now have been approaching his 19th birthday, the minimum age for overseas service, and on 28 December 1917 he was transferred "Compulsorily, at former rate of pay" to the Corps of Hussars, for posting to the 2/1st Denbighshire Yeomanry. This had been a reserve Territorial cavalry unit, converted to cyclists in 1916. He stayed with this formation until 16 June 1918 when he was once again "compulsorily transferred at former rate of pay" to a unit (unnamed) of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers with the British Expeditionary Force on the Western Front. He was also issued a new Regimental number of 58456. On 7 April it seems he had been vaccinated, and again on 8 ?May with Tetanus antibodies.
He did not stay with his new Regiment long (if indeed he ever got beyond the Base Depot areas) because there is a clear note that on 13 July 1918 he was posted to the 15th (Pioneer) Battalion , Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. This was a new formation, created at Cromer in June 1918 and sent to the Western Front on 5 July to reinforce the 14th Division which was being reconstituted after sufffering heavy losses in the German offensives of March-April.
There is no note of formal change of regimental number, so either he was just attached to the LNLancs or the paperwork wasn't processed in time before Burns was transferred yet again on 2 August to become Private no. 53688 with the new 18th Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment(formed similarly in June and arrived on the Western Front on 3 July). He joined "D" Company of the battalion "in the Field" on 5 August and was killed in action in the Ypres sector a little over three weeks later on 31 August, aged 19.
His parents seem to have moved by this point to White Lea Cottage, Greenfield, Oldham. The last official actions on his file are on about 20 September 1918 the authorisation of payment of a Separation Allowance to his mother of 10 shillings and 8 pence (per week) until 24 March 1919. His surviving personal effects were sent home on 30 January 1919 and on 10 March it was noted that any medals awarded should be sent to his father.
Please bear in mind that I may well have missed or misinterpreted some information, but this seems to be the full official record of William's service in the Great War.
Clive
Thank you Clive, an excellent job. One thing that strikes me, all the transfers! In his short service, he never seemed to stay with one unit for very long, as each transfer occurs, his death almost seems inevitable. As he wasn't gaining any front line experience, nor would he have really had close mates, who looked out for each other. Thinking about Frank Richards book OSND, I'm certain that he points out that the new guys are isolated, and that the old sweats tended not to mix with them, because their survival rate was so poor. Each new unit would be like starting again.
I agree. William Burns was kept in the UK for quite a while, owing to a combination of his age and maybe his medical category. But both of these increasingly counted for less as the Army tried to reinforce the units at the Front from a dwindling pool of manpower. He might have seen many of his training-unit mates posted abroad while he was left behind, only to be shuttled from one reserve formation to another.
The German offensives of March 1918 onwards put huge pressure on the authorities to get almost anyone who could hold a rifle over to France, and that's the background to his posting to the BEF that summer. I suspect he might have got no further than the Base areas, where he and thousands like him were brought up to scratch in current warfare techniques at places like the Bull Ring at Etaples. Then slotted into brand-new formations which were a mixture of complete novices and the survivors of wiped-out or disbanded earlier battalions.
As you say, the unit cohesion in such formations must have been pretty ropey, at all levels from Division down to platoon level. The largely-untried 14th Div didn't enter serious offensive operations until they were involved in the (4th) Battle of Ypres at the end of September 1918.
By then, Burns was dead - killed after only about three weeks or so of Front Line service somehere in the Ypres salient, during the incessant round of shelling, sniping, night patrols, wiring parties and trench raids. At least they recovered his body, so that the family can pay their respects in due course. RIP
Clive
Thank you all so much.I did get the war diary record. But what you have researched for me is just astounding . I don't realy understand your thanks button thingy but many thanks to all of you. David Burns
Many thanks for all the info about William Burns. He was the first child born to Isabella and Cornelius Burns. William was my Grandfather's eldest brother. William was actually born on 26.10.1898 in Brinksway, Stockport. He was Christened on 16.11.1898 at St.Augustine's Church, Brinksway, Stockport. He is listed on the roll of honourin St George's Church, Mossley and on the 'Pots and Pans' Saddleworth war memorial.
Thank you so much, Sandra (Burns)