Fusilier Thomas Evan EVANS

I would like to try to track down just why my daughter-in-law's grandfather, Thomas Evan EVANS, was living in Herne Bay, Kent in 1943- 1944.

Fusilier Thomas Evan Evans of the Royal Welch Fusiliers was (it seems) living with my daughter-in-law's grandmother in Herne Bay, on the north east coast of Kent. In the belief that her husband was killed in the war, the two had a relationship producing a daughter Valerie, (my daughter-in-law's mother). Thomas Evans himself made the Civil Registration of the birth giving his service number as 4193621. The 'dead' husband came home unexpectedly and Fusilier Evans left the scene.

As direct access to WW2 personnel files cannot be made (we have no idea if he is dead or alive, and if alive how to contact him for approval to 'search' his records) we are trying to piece together his movements to see where might have came from, how old he was, and where he went. He does not appear in the WW2 role of honour - casualties - (thank you for the lists with this Forum) and the Civil Registrations of both Births and Deaths list literally hundreds of Thomas E Evans, so some limitation as to area and probable year of birth would be more than useful. It's called clutching at straws, but Valerie is now in her 60's and longing to find out more about her father by any means.

Sorry for this long epistle. Is there a way forward via the Herne Bay posting or any other route please? He seems to describe himself as "Driver: Contractors"?? when registering his daughter's birth.

The more experienced Forum members will have sensed that we are naive in Military matters, and we have no idea whether the Royal Welch Fusiliers all fought in the same theatre at the same time in WW2, or if different Battalions were sent to different places, and we certainly have no clue what battalion Thomas Evans joined or where.

Any comments would be much appreciated, as what may be obvious to most probably won't be to me!

Thank you - Chris S

Hi Chris, Welcome to the forum.

Hearne Bay is significant, as three RWF Battalions were based in and around that area in 1943 at the same time, as they continued the build up to the D Day Landings, which took place the following June.

Those Battalions were the 4th, 6th and 7th battalions. So that narrows it down.....but only slightly. Incidentally they landed at Normandy in the latter part of June 1944 and fought through France, Holland and Germany until the cessation of hostilities,

I have a contact who has access to some RWF lists not available to the public. We will get these lists checked. Although with a great many Evans, this may be a long shot. These three battalions were TA, and mobilised in 1939, although they were not to go into action until 1944. All 3 recruited from their local areas. As an example the 7th was very strong in the Montgomeryshire area.

I have checked the RWF Comrades white book from 2005, no mention of him. I take it that Valerie has no other scrap of information about him?

I will keep you updated.

Al

After reading this post I had a shufti through the pre1950 photos in the Gallery. On P3 there is one for Pte Green (I think) whose number is 4192645 which is not that far off the above Evans.

Would the poster of that photo possibly have some info that may help? Or am I reading too much into number allocations.

gwil

Well spotted Gwil. The photo below shows Pat502's father 4192645 Fred Green in 1938/39. Pat has already stated that he joined the RWF on the 2/8/1938 and was posted to the second battalion which was a regular battalion. He enlisted at Abergavenny S. Wales. Then completed his training at Wrexham. Thomas Evans service number was 4193621

I think Thomas was from North or Mid Wales, but that is just a hunch. I have no expertise with numbers, but it is possible that he joined roughly at the same time as Fred, perhaps as a Territorial. We need someone with knowledge to confirm that the numbering was sequential.

If so this would help narrow down his age.

[tmb]http://rwf-forum.co.uk/gallery/files/1/0/5/8/fathersonandpet.jpg[/tmb]

Thank you for the comments and the interest shown. This information has already made us feel that we are beginning to know the gentleman. It is facinating that you have found a member with a fairly similar Service number - if TA members of the regiment were recruited at a particular age around 1939, this could perhaps help indicate the age of Thomas Evans?
Sadly we have no other information on Fusilier Evans, nor any knowledge of his likely Army role which makes the information you have kindly provided so special. Again, thank you.

Chris

Hi Chris,

We now have a little more detail, but no birth date as yet!.

Thos. Evan EVANS served with 7th Bn and later transferred to the Yorks. & Lancs. Regt. He left the RWF on 27th June 1944.

Contacts are still taking place between researchers in an effort to identify his birth date.

In the meantime I suggest making contact with the Yorks and Lancs Regimental Museum. They just may have something:

[if]http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/amot-search/default.asp?Category=Amot&Service=Museum-Display&reference=0000000150[/if]

Hello Al

Superb! You have some very special contacts - thank you so much for using these folks on our project.

In a previous posting you explained your hunch was that Thomas Evan Evans came from mid or north Wales, and said he may have been recruited in 1939 and we guessed this possibly made him between 18 and 20 at that time. Our man would be almost 90 on this basis if still alive - sadly well beyond an average lifespan.

With this background we have had another go at searching the Registers of Births and Deaths indexes focussing on this information. Sadly registration indexes do not show second names in the 1920's, just second initial. It was not until 1969 that second names are listed, so we gloomily decided to look to see how many Thomas Evan Evans had died since 1969. Death entries include reference to date and place of birth. There appear to be just three, and only one of these entries (4th quarter 1982) shows as being born around that time in North Wales (Llanfyllin area) - dob 26 Feb 1920. (Another death in 1982 shows dob 1905 - too old, and the last death we found was in 1977 for a fellow born in 1923 in Bridgend area - too young) Of course, and hopefully, he could still be alive. We wonder if your friends might be able to home in on one of these people? Or someone else completely.

In ignorance, it never occured to me that soldiers gathering for the Normandy Landings were living anywhere except under canvas, but yes, a billet in Herne Bay is logical, although why Fusilier Evans was described as Driver, Contractors we cannot guess.

Please use your discretion and delete the next paragraphs if inappropriate for this section of the Forum, but the billetting for the Normandy Landings clears up another family story!

We live at the old family farm in a rural area south of Canterbury, Kent. Electricity and Water were unavailable until the late 1950's, well after the War, with all water drawn daily from an open topped well. This was my job in the late 1940's

Many family members have lived here at some time including my Auntie May. When she died we found notes of a talk she had given to the local Womens Institute in the 1960's which referred to having a number of Army personnel billetted with them in the War - all falls into place doesn't it! The talk described their times at the farm which seemed quite enjoyable except for one day when an Officer called to make a complaint on behalf of the soldiers about the water supply - the men did not object to the water, but were very unhappy that frogs lived in the well they drunk from!

All the best
Chris

Hello Chris, great post.

Good work on the deaths, however without the birth date it will all be conjecture, although should we find that date, your groundwork will pay dividends. The reason I think he was from North or Mid Wales? The 7th Bn was TA and primarily covered the Merioneth & Montgomeryshire area. Indeed if you look through the photo gallery I think there is a picture of a group of guys being recruited to the 7th Bn in a cinema in Welshpool 38/39.

All this of course is again guesswork, but its a starting point.

With regard to the title Driver/Contractor. The Kent coastal area was a sealed area leading up to the invasion and there was a massive deception plan in operation. Perhaps it was to disguise his unit from appearing on an official document...just a wild theory.

Hi Chris,

It's Not looking good at the moment. The only extra detail I have is as follows:

" No elistment date for 7th Battalion. Transferred to The Royal Scots Fusiliers 26/6/44 - Docs to Perth - 5/7/44.

Transferred to Yorks & Lancs. Regt. 27/6/44. Docs to York 25.7/44"

The "Docs" bit refers to Thomas's army documents being sent to the relevant regimental headquarters. So for the RSF it was Perth and the Y & L at York.

The researcher who is looking still has another couple of strands, to follow.

I know you have been reading the Bill Tierney thread, and in some ways this is similar, in so much that Valerie may have an extended family with brothers and sisters unaware of her existence. We need to think of a way of identifying his birth date.


If any of the serving officers who use the Forum have any links to the MOD Historical Disclosures dept.....We need your help please

Thank you for all your efforts, Al.

Why would Fusilier Evans be given even one transfer, let alone two in quick succession? We read that the RWF 7th Battalion went right through Holland to Germany, and we would have expected him to have an ongoing role in his regiment to achieve that task.

We had an online look at the Yorks and Lancs Museum but no windows opened up, and we could find no forum for that regiment equivalent to this excellent centre.

Yes, I have been looking at other threads, and the Tierney one is very exciting. (You don't miss much, do you!) and the prospect of further family provides another dimension. If this does materialise some extreme diplomacy would be required, possibly using a third party, because Thomas' later family may have no idea about Val, and it would be entirely wrong to cause an upset - not the preferred objective! One step at a time though!

Thank you for calling for help - we are mindful that certain information may be restricted, but our suggestions for his possible identities posted above may allow someone to feel able to comfortable in helping in this way. We will certainly be contacting the Glasgow records centre with the £30 fee as soon as we know where we are going.

Again, your diligence used on our behalf is much appreciated.

Chris

Please do any readers of this thread know of, or have a reasonable idea about, the maximum and minimum ages for a man to be accepted into the Territorial arm of the RWF in the 1938-1940 era, the time that Al and Gwil sense that Fusilier Evans joined up?

We are actually trying (with the help of this Forum) to establish his date of birth. If we can limit the possible period of his birth to a minimum it would be more than useful!

Thank you
Chris

Found some detail:

.
During the 1930s some men still chose to enter the armed forces after leaving school and in 1937 there were 200,000 soldiers in the British army. The government knew that this was not enough to fight a war with Germany and in April 1939 introduced the Military Training Act. The terms of the act meant that all men between the ages of 20 and 21 had to register for six months' military training.

In October 1939 the British government announced that all men aged between 18 and 41 who were not working in 'reserved occupations' could be called to join the armed services if required. Conscription was by age and in October 1939 men aged between 20 and 23 were required to register to serve in one of the armed forces. They were allowed to choose between the army, the navy and the airforce

However reading it, I'm starting to think that he may have been conscripted. At the start of the War, we had 2 regular battalions. The 1st and the 2nd. In 1939 The 1st Bn deployed to France with the BEF, the 2nd Bn were in India, and began to travel back to the UK., the 2nd Bn did not take part in any action until 1942

In 1940 at Dunkirk, the 1st Bn took a severe mauling, a large portion of the battalion were either killed, wounded or captured. Only a small percentage made it off the beaches and back to the safety of the UK. Surely the replacements would have come from some of the TA soldiers in training, and from those finishing training at Wrexham.

Maximum Age: If he was 23 in 39, and was one of the first conscripted, he would have been 25/26 in 1943 when he turns up with his Battalion in Kent. Its possible that if he joined the same time as Fred Green, who has a similar service number, perhaps Thomas was under the age of 20, and so although he enlisted at the same time, he may have commenced his training later on after reaching the required age. Note that Fred went to the 2nd Battalion, who were fighting in 1942.

Minimum Age: His minimum age in 1943 must have been 18, I dont think he could have been any younger, while serving with a unit awaiting to deploy on active service.

Based on that, your looking for someone born between 1916 - 1925. However I think its unlikely he could have avoided earlier active service with either the 1st or 2nd Battalion, if he was born as early as 1916.

So you can probably add a couple of years onto the 1916 date....Clear as mud :smile:

This is all guesswork. Anyone who can further this or correct any inaccurcies, please join in.

Hello -
I am the granddaughter of Fusilier Thomas Evan Evans, and my mother and I have both been watching this thread with great interest. We still need Thomas’s date of birth to be able to request his service records of course, and we can’t help but wonder if we will ever able to properly identify him to the satisfaction of the Army Personnel Centre in Glasgow despite all the efforts you have gone to on our behalf.
We have learned about the role of the RWF in the BEF and the later post D-Day Landings and this has been really fascinating. It was horrifying to hear of the devastation suffered by the 1st Battalion at Dunkirk.
Early on in this thread Al told us that the 4th, 5th and 7th Territorial Battalions gathered in south eastern England for the D-Day landings when Thomas met my grandmother in Herne Bay, and he might have been with the 7th Battalion. Please do you know if the replenished Regular 1st Battalion also waited in this area at that time, which could therefore have included Thomas? Or indeed if the 2nd Battalion were there (having returned from India) with the same implication?

Thank you so much for allowing us to join your Forum and helping us with our investigations.
Debs

Welcome to the Forum Debs.

Sorry at this stage we are unable to give you Thomas's birthdate. However, it just takes one stroke of luck, so keep looking.

With regard to the 1st and 2nd Bn's, neither were in Herne Bay. In April 1942, the 1st sailed to South Africa, following the 2nd Bn who were already on route to Madagascar.

One suggestion regarding his rapid transfers between units could be due to his role as a driver, perhaps he was transferred to a different unit, then transferred on again as his new unit deployed to Normandy