Can anyone help me out: Why do pioneer sgt`s have beards, and in particalaur the history behind The Royal Welch Fusiliers pnr sgt.
Thanks Beefy
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Can anyone help me out: Why do pioneer sgt`s have beards, and in particalaur the history behind The Royal Welch Fusiliers pnr sgt.
Thanks Beefy
Hello Beefy,
The history and origins of the RWF pioneer Sjt is probably a long task to sort out. Re the beard, I believe two reasons were given for the pioneer Sjt having a beard.
1 A beard protects the face of the pioneer Sjt whenclearing routes through trees and brambles.
2 The other reason is to protect his face from infection when mixing or using explosives.
The pioneers were used mainly for clearing roads and paths for the battalion to make progress. All pioneers were tradesmen.
Credible or not what do you think.
Regards Don aka RBD
hi both, just found this:
Before 1939, British army troops were allowed, with permission from their commander, to grow a beard. Since then, the only soldier in the battalion allowed a beard was the combat engineer sergeant and colour sergeants who was allowed to keep a beard by tradition. In many British Commonwealth armies it is traditional that the Pioneer Sergeants attached to the infantry has a beard. This goes back to the days when they used to stick the slow burning fuze into their beards for safekeeping when assembling explosive charges. Today these men are responsible more for carpentry and military engineering than lighting fuses but the beards remain as a remnant of that past. Oddly enough these men also are usually issued chromed pioneer tools (axes, shovels, etc) and a work apron that they carry with them on parades. The navies of these countries also allow full sets of beards although currently this is under review
Your question got me thinking so I did some searching about and this is one of the answers I found, I dont know if its the main reason but it sounds good to me:
Before 1939, British army troops were allowed, with permission from their commander, to grow a beard. Since then, the only soldier in the battalion allowed a beard was the combat engineer sergeant and colour sergeants who was allowed to keep a beard by tradition. In many British Commonwealth armies it is traditional that the Pioneer Sergeants attached to the infantry has a beard. This goes back to the days when they used to stick the slow burning fuze into their beards for safekeeping when assembling explosive charges. Today these men are responsible more for carpentry and military engineering than lighting fuses but the beards remain as a remnant of that past
I've always thought our pioneers were exellent both in their engineering skills & no parade was complete with out them at the head behind Billy.
Was it the QLR in Berlin who decided they liked what they saw & decided they wanted the same & even had the neck to ask could they borrow our aprons & tools ???
I have seen no other British Regiment with this tradition, however the Forgien Legion do have pioneers leading them.
Richie,
If I remember correctly, the QLR's had plenty of tools in their own Battalion!!!
An Extract from the Pipkin "The Royal Welch Fusiliers"
The Ceremonial Pioneers
Before the days of good roads and bridges and level camp sites, it was necessary to have men who were able to prepare the way for the Regiment on the march and to provide services for its camps. These were the Pioneers, all tradesmen and picked soldiers, and their SERGEANT WAS AN OUTSTANDING MAN OF GREAT EXPERIENCE AND AS SUCH WORE A BEARD.
To protect their uniforms they wore leather aprons and gloves. From their position in the van on active service the Pioneers have long held the privilege of marching behind the Regimental Goat at the head of the Regiment on Ceremonial Parades. They wear white buckskin aprons and guanlets and carry their traditional tools.
In 1886 an inspecting General quistioned their right to these items of dress and an appeal was to the War Office which resulted in a letter in which the Commander-in-Chief, His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, was pleased to consent to the continuance of the custom.
THE AUTHORITY FOR THIS RIGHT IS SHARED WITH NO OTHER REGIMENT.
Beefy
Having spoken to the Assualt/Ceremonial Pioneer C/Sgt PSI (Bambi) here in the TAC Queensferry, he informs me that there are no longer any Assualt/Ceremonial Pioneers in the Ist Bn and its upto the CO's discretion whether to have them? However, there is a vast of qualified Assualt/Ceremonial Pioneers still in the 1st Bn and it is hoped that they will re-form when back in Chester.
On a lighter note the 3rd Bn still has retained an Assualt/Ceremonial Pioneer Platoon and are very professional in what they do.
If that is the case, the tradition of the Pioneer Sergeant's beard is long gone, yet another Regimental Custom thrown under the carpet ( Sir General Jackson has suceeded in "trashing" the Regimental System, its Customs and Traditions). However, all is not lost we still have the 3rd Bn to call upon.
Hi Benny,
and what a great set of boys they are in APNR (ICE) Pl 3 R WELSH. Pass on my regards to them all. Had a great 18 months with them and the Shotton and Deeside branch of the RWF comrades. Camp last year will always stick in my head for the laughs and hard work that was put in by all to make it work down in Weymouth. I dont know if Joe and Meds have recovered yet.
As for the 1st BN, the CO and Sen Maj are keen that we have APNRS in some shape and form and we do still train soldiers in these skills, in fact one of the boys has just started his APNR Pl Sgt cse in the Royal Engineers depot.
As for a reason why the BN has not got an established platoon at present is more to do with army policies and unit establishments figures than anything else. It is certainly not driven by the BN, as they have recognised some of the skills that bring the APNR to the fore, especially on operations like Afghansistan , demolitions and field fortifications to name but two skills.
All the best Benny hope you, Carol and the boys are well , say hello to all in A Coy 3 R WELSH
Vic
What a loss bring them back soon, I was fortunate that during my time in the army we had them and what a fantastic professional bunch of guys, thier was not much they could not achive and thier boss ,an insperation and well respected guy.
I personaly always had time and the gratest respect for all these guys, especialy in Gorazde where they earned more than thier crust, great team led by a real top man!
22
Further to your Pnr Sgt beard query, I've just been told that the Pnr Sgt wore a thick beard to stop the metal shavings from which he was responsible for sharpening damaging his face also as a few other members' have stated to stop the cordite going onto his face from the explosives. I thank You for a very good "Post" it has certainly become a talking point today.
Best Regards
BennytheBall 1
Hi Vic
Many Thanks for that, The Platoon is thriving at the moment, Joe is on his Pl Comders Course, Bambi is settling in very well.
Carol and the Boys are OK.
Will pass on your wishes to the Branch next week at the monthly meeting.
Hope you Donna and the girls are well send them our best wishes.
Will Speak Soon
Best Regards
Benny, Carol and Boys.
Judging by the Pioneer Sergeants that i have known, i always suspected that the beard was required to cover up thier grizzly mugs, every one of them was a true professional but not the prettiest bunch I have ever come accross, except Vic of course.
Benny, you say the wearing of a beard applies only to our Reg. In 1982 myself, Paul Gough,Yanto etc were attached to 1 R. Hamps AP Plt in the Falklands & their Sgt also had a beard !
The wearing of a beard was also permitted in the case of facial disfigurement.
I have met a few people from different corps and regiments given permission to wear a beard.
Hi Mike,
cheers for the observtion , glad I broke the mold for a short while, obviously Bambi has come back in and set an all time high for future PNR Sgts to aspire to (only joking Bamb , hope it is going well in Qferry and that your keeping Benny topped up with brews)
Best wishes
Vic
Quote:
Judging by the Pioneer Sergeants that i have known, i always suspected that the beard was required to cover up thier grizzly mugs, every one of them was a true professional but not the prettiest bunch I have ever come accross, except Vic of course.
... and my Bro!! He's a handsome fella if ever there was one!
Anita xx
Thanks for that, I John Nye was very good looking, ! ! ! !
John Nye good looking, never ever seen him without his beard, a true gentleman to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnye63
quote 'don't give me problems ,give me results -get on with it Hewer'
reminds me the day in Lemgo when Tom 04 was stirring a tin of red oxide paint and he after 20 min was sweating like a good un when the Boss (john nye) asked 'what you doing 04?' Tom replied 'getting the paint out the corner boss'
who can ever forget Windsor (Zack Zack) the signwriter ,brilliant singwriter
Yes who can forget Windsor! ! ! Good to hear from you. we had some good days then, what ever happened to Windsor?
I think I’d better add my comments to this one of the oldest traditions of the Royal Welch Fusilier Pioneer Sergeant and the reasons why he wore and still wears the beard.
Firstly though to what Martin Heap had written earlier, most if not all of the infantry battalions have or used to have a pioneer sergeant who wore the beard, however the 1st Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers were the only battalion who, while on parade, paraded a section of ceremonial pioneers wearing full ceremonial order, with a brilliant white work apron and carrying a highly polished implement (axe, spade, pick axe and sledge hammer) and with the Pnr Sgt in the same ceremonial dress, with the red sash and carrying a sword. The ceremonial pioneer has always been to the front of the regiment behind L/Cpl Billy while on parade, this is the way that the regiments marched into battle. The pioneers would at the head of the column clear the route, clear the ground and build the defence’s of the camp sites, whilst in battle he would then clear any enemy defences.
As Dave Richie 64 said ref the QLR, I was the Asslt Pnr Sgt in charge while in Berlin when after the QLR’s RSM had seen us on parade, he sent his Pnr Sgt to Monty Bks to ask me if they could borrow our uniforms and Implements, because their RSM thought we looked smart and of course I showed the Pnr Sgt the pointed end of my sword and the directions to the front gate. Sometime later I was then approached by their RSM, being polite I tried to explain to him the traditions and history of the RWF, but he wouldn’t have it, he explained to me that he was a WO 1 and tried to order me to let him borrow our uniforms, not having this I pointed him into the direction of our RSM who if I remember right was Richie Irvine and guess what, I did not hear from the QLR RSM or their Pnr Sgt again, ever.
From my early days in the battalion and in Lemgo I took great interest in the Assault Pioneer and the role he played in the battalion past and present, after completing the Asslt Pnr carder run by Johnny Nye in Lemgo. I sort further information on the role of the Asslt Pnr and why the Pnr Sgt was allowed to grow the beard. This took me to seeking and asking advice from several sources including the Imperial War Museum London, in my travels and the many courses that I completed I heard many different stories including;
• The Pnr Sect would have to be up really early in order to clear the route for the Bn and that it was so dark that they couldn’t see to shave
• The time when the Pnr would keep a lighted fuze in his beard to stop it blowing out before he could set off his explosives
• Another good one I heard which the Pnr Sgt of a Scottish Reg told me, was that because the Pnr’s used to dig tunnels under the enemy positions and then rush out from these tunnels and with the Pnr’s wearing a beard and covered in mud the enemy would run off scared that they were being attacked by ghosts or cave men.
• And the stories go on and on
After speaking with the staff at the Imperial museum in London and reading through the lines, I will have to go with this version; I left all my research papers on this matter with the Pnr Pl when I left the Bn in Chepstow.
We all know the traditions behind why the RWF’s were allowed to keep and wear the Flash; the tradition of the Pnr Sgt’s beard more or less has come about in the same manner. At the time when the British Army was involved in active service in the Crimean war and then it’s returned to Great Britain at the end of the war, all serving men were ordered to be clean shaven and hair cut short but they could keep their long side burns, apart from the Bn section’s of pioneers who were allowed to keep their full beards, this was in order to allow the CO of each Bn to know the position of the front line of each rifle company while in the fight against the enemy, the Pnr’s who were at the front could easily be identified by their long beards showing the progress of advance. Then as time went by the order came for all serving men to be clean shaven including hair and side burns to be cut short, it wasn’t long after this order that the Pnrs were also given the same order; clean shaven and hair cut to what then became regimental length. It was soon realized as it is still in today’s modern army that the British army was losing its long held Regimental traditions and identities. A letter was written by senior Officers of the infantry Bn’s asking for permission for the Pioneer Sergeant to keep his beard as a way to remember the bi-gone ages of the British Army and how it was.
Today the Assault Pioneer Platoon still or should, still play an active and vital role in battalion way of life in ceremonial duties, training and on the front line, and used like any other support platoon within the BN. Whether it is instruction in field defences, crossing obstacles such as rivers and minefields to demolition tasks, to providing the engineering type task advice to the CO and Coy Cmdrs, and not like the Royal Engineers the Bn Asslt Pnr does not have all their stores and machinery on call and to hand, who I know that without this support they are lost and cannot complete or provide the assistance required to complete the task in hand. Whereas the Assault Pioneer will go out of his way and using one of his best skills, that of improvisation, turning battlefield rubble and anything else laying around, into something that can aid in the front line.
I could go on and on, but I won’t. I would like to say thank you to all my fellow Assault Pioneers who made my life more than interesting on many occasions.
Infantry Combat Engineer “ICE” cool but never frozen, I still have my tie
Dai Martin 70
(Pnr Sgt/Pl Cmdr – Berlin, Tidworth, Brawdy and Chepstow)
And are still Bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnye63
Love you
Anita xx
Excellent response Dai, and very interesting. Everything happens for a reason, and your description of a group of men with beards indicating the forward line to the CO is very plausible and makes great sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by daimartin70
Dai
A great load of sensible info there, Well Done- researched it well.
Hope it answers Beefy's Question?
Hope you are keeping well
Best Regards
BennytheBall 1
Dai you were a great asslt pnr i learnt a lot of good skills from you in my time in the plt . (some of which would make the health and safty brigade have kittens) one of the best skills was to make do or make some thing out of nothing ... good times ..
Thank you for all your input, and i have all that i need to answer the question.
22 & Dai
Thought you would like this:
Extract taken from a scroll on the wall in the bar of the TA Centre, Queensferry.
WHAT IS AN ASSAULT PIONEER ?
He is an Infantryman with Specialist Skills.
His Trade Lineage can be traced back over 2000 years ago, when a Roman General described him as "One of a body of Soldiers, marching in advance with spades to prepare the road for the main army".
Today, he still goes in advance of the main body to prepare the way ahead, still often using a shovel or axe or more sophisticated equipment like the Combat Power Tool Kit or the Husquvana Chain Saw.
He can find himself clearing a route through a minefield using only his eyes and hands or blowing a gap in the wire obstacles that lie in advance of an attack.
He can get the whole Battalion across a wide river by constructing an Infantry Assault Bridge and from that same river, he can supply them with gallons of fresh drinking water.
He can build a house or latrine and "Booby Trap" both with fiendish skill.
He can construct an underground Command Post or dig a 4 man Battle Trench and fight from it.
He can delay an enemy advance with mines and wire obstacles.
"HE LIVES WITH DANGER BUT WORKS WITH CAUTION!"
He can operate the latest Assault boats or build a raft. He can lead an attack with a Bangalore Torpedo or be the last out in a withdrawl, whilst blowing a crater or laying an Anti Tank mine.
All this he can do or he can lay down his tools, take aim with his rifle and fight as an Infantryman.
"THIS IS AN ASSAULT PIONEER!"
Do you know, I always thought they wore beards because they had scary faces.