Is the title Fusilier used in all Battalions or does the 2nd Battalion still use Private???
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Is the title Fusilier used in all Battalions or does the 2nd Battalion still use Private???
The 2nd Battalion still use Private.
Don’t know if I am right, but if they wear the hackle shouldn’t they be classed as Fusiliers, I thought the Hackle signified that you were a Fusilier (a title I was very proud to have)
1st Bn use Fusilier
very good point Benny, i think they should be fusiliers instead of private:twitcy:
When privates are attached the 1st Battalion or Fusiliers are attached to the 2nd Battalion do they change their title and how do you tell them apart (quite confusing)?????
Well Bruv it gets even more confusing in 3 R Welsh, because I think that they still have Fusiliers and Privates.
BennytheBall 1
Do the 1st Battalion(RWF) wear collar bombs and the 2nd battalion(RRW) wear collar dragons/dogs?
The Royal Welsh, what every Bn the come from should get these things sorted out, both bn 's have voted on certain things from each Bn to be used as a structure for the RW.
The agreed to wear the Hackle and the Flash as part of The Royal Welch Fusiliers Golden thread deal, to merge the Bn's.
And when you wear the hackle you are Fusiliers, So surly these need to be addressed by the other Bn's , If they don't sort this out and let this slide Can the 1st bn revert back to RWF Regimental Colours I think not rules are rules . personally if they let it slide whats next, They stop wearing the Hackle and Flash all together, No way you agreed the mergers Golden threads so wear them with pride i did. Val.
Reference the Collar Dogs/Bombs, there is currently a new badge in the system, what the design is yet to be known, but its believed to have the Rampant Dragon on it. There are also new buttons for the No 2 Dress which has the Rampant Dragon on them. It is believed that the Cap Badge is also in design based on the old RRW badge with a scroll underneath with the words 'The Royal Welsh'. Hope this clears up some issues.
Am I right to say, if I was a Fusilier and visiting the 2nd Battalion and the Provo Sgt or RSM shouted Privte stand still would I be in trouble for ignoring him????
Hello All,
The title Fusilier stems from the days when certain British Regiments of the line used FUSILS.And there style and title was Fusiliers
Regards Don
With regard to Bennyball2's question, I have to say that in my time if the Provost Sgt or the RSM shouted "Private stand still" EVERYBODY within earshot - including the CO - stopped in their tracks!
There was a rumour just a rumour that we would all be called Welshmen, ie: Welshman Jones, Hughes etc.
With regards to Senjo89, I certainly wouldent have stopped if he called me a private!!!
Hello Beefy,
If a Sjt even a provost Sjt shouted put that man Jones in the nick, when the second were in Malaya it would need Parkhouse Gaol to lock them all up.I was reliably informed we had close to 300 Jones's in the battalion.
Regards RBD
I dont ever imaging we could get rid of last two`s
Hello Beefy,
I am certain we can never dispense with the last two.
Regards Don
The collar dog is a gold bomb with the RRW wreath of immortelles with dragon passant in silver superimposed over the bomb. It will be worn by all Bn's within the Regt. Officers and WO1's will wear a bronzed version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri Brazier
The buttons have a rampant dragon with Royal Welsh underneath. Gold for troops, bronzed for Officers.
I think the collar dog is very smart and is probably the best example of the merger of the RWF and RRW. However I am sure some of you will disagree.
Al P if you email me I will send them to you to post on here.
The Welshman title was looked at for soldiers but was binned by all the CO's as a non starter.
1st Bn are known as Fusiliers
2nd Bn are known as Privates (As there is no mention of Fusilier anywhere in their name - hence no-one is a Fusilier)
3rd Bn A & D Companies are Fusiliers with B/ & HQ known as Privates. This is not that confusing to manage.
The new computer system JPA only blanket ranks all as Privates however the 1st and 3rd Bn's will continue with the tradition of Fusilier.
Sir, the 2 Bn RW do were the Hackle and flash and the 3 rd RW Bn do as well , so that makes Them Fusiliers you are now a proud new regiment with golden threads chosen from each Bn for the merger.
uniformity is a must so all men of the new RW should all be Fusiliers, because you agreed to the golden thread of the Royal Welch Fusiliers. Rules are rules RSM , if you let this rule slide maybe 1 bn should revert back to its own Cap badge, regimental colors and so on.
You should stick by the agreement you made when RRW AND RWF merged, or is it because all the senior officers are RRW its OK to whittle out the RWF golden threads .
The merger is over now , these small errors should between 1 2 and 3 Bn need to be sorted out. All Bn's were the flash and hackle , that makes them Fusiliers, Take care see you at the reunion , cheers Val.
Some 'Pte' posted in to the 2nd Bn actually have 'Fus' as their rank on their ID Card, but they are still made to be called Pte. Surely what it says on the ID Card is what their rank is!!!!!!!!!!! (FUSILIER).
Val the Golden Threads signed up to, are being upheld and will be as part of the new Regiments traditions/history. However you are welcome to visit RHQ and go through all the paperwork for the merger meetings. I can assure you that you will not find any paperwork that says all Fusilier/Privates are to be called Fusilier. However you will find mention to the Bn's not changing.Quote:
Originally Posted by taffylooneytoon
Therefore no-one signed up to it, which means no-one is going back on anything. As you say "Rules are Rules" and I don't make them. I just ensure they are followed and thats exactly what the RSM's of the 2nd and 3rd are doing. If you look at the 3 Battalions then they are uniformal in appearance.
If you look at the meetings over the past year the majority of the headshed has been ex RWF. They have worked very hard to bring the best of both Regiments into the new Regiment. It has been very difficult trying to keep everyone happy but I think they have done an excellent job.
I hear Chicago Rock is closed. I am gutted as I was looking forward to visiting during the reunion. I will join you for a beer as long as you promise not to bend my ear over the merger.:biglaugh:
Val
Not that I'm nit-picking, but in paragraph 2 of your above post you state RRW AND RWF merged, I would like to put that sentence in the right context, it should have read RWF AND RRW merged, because RWF are 1 R Welsh and the RRW are 2 R Welsh, if we are going to carry on this debate please let us get our "banter" correct.
No politician, Comrades' Association is going to change anything now that the Regimental history of both fine Welsh Regiments have been "broken" by the regime. So I'm afraid that we have to finally accept change and support our men and women of all 3 Bn's which are currently doing a "stern" job on operations in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm sure that this debate about cap badges, green patches, Fusiliers/Privates, Colours will go on for sometime on the Forum as people in authority have said the young men and women of the 3 Bn's have accepted the change its only us ex serving members of both past Regiments are debating the issues, please don't forget I was one of the first to, as stated "Throw the cat amongst the pigeons" on this Forum about these matters, but we haven't changed anything because the "Top Brass" had already made a plan to dessimate the famous regiments that we were all proud to serve in and us Comrades' were never going to change that.
So as I've already stated lets us support our young men and women of the new Infantry Regiment for Wales.
Let us now focus on our old Regiment's wonderful Comrades' Associations.
Best Regards
BennytheBall
Hello Benny,
You have hit the nail on the head again with unerring accuracy(Sniper number 2)
As you well know the 27 branches of the comrades will keep the title and style of dress of the old RWF this was confirmed at a meeting of the executive committee.
Regards Don
Hello Benny,
I also think your views on seniority in all correspondence are valid. This is a highly contentious issue. One of course that all the R.W.F.C.A. branches are unanimous on and have extremely strong feelings and rightly so. It was the cavalier manner in which the Royal Welch Comrades mail was addressed that caused a lot of bad feeling. As a personal opinion the sooner it stops and the Royal Welch Fusiliers are treated in a more circumspect manner, The "Sleeping Tigers" will adopt a more conciliatory attitude. I acknowledge the phrase "Sleeping Tigers" as being used by Admiral Yamamato after the sneak attack on Pearl Harbour.It was in reference to trouble caused by this attack not being properly thought out. Does this raise your hackles???
Yours fratenally (Buddy)
R.B.D.
Mathew, , i was trying to put it across that RW what ever Bn should stick to the rules of the merger, and uniformity with all 3 bn .
with all Bn s wearing the Flash and Hackle that makes them fusiliers, not privates, my main worry was if you do not enforce this what will be next the flash and hackle being droped. I think all the boys of the Royal Welsh, what ever Bn there in are doing a fantastic job, and ironing the kinks will not take long. Chicago's is back open mate and i wont bend your ear either , you should have sorted it out by then , first ones on me . Val.
More on the Fusilier/Private debate.
Firstly what is a Golden Thread - I would say it is something that has been part of a Regiment for hundreds of years and is Regimental history.
The dictionary explains 'Golden' as - exceptionally valuable, and 'Thread' as - to pass continuously through the whole course of (something); Therefore something exceptionally valuable that has gone on continuously for the whole of time.
Let's look at the Fusilier/Private debate. The RRW/SWB/Welch Regt have been called Privates since formed. I have just found out that Fusilier have only been known as fusilier since 1923. Thats not even near 100yrs old. If you don't believe me then check out this link
http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/en_faq.html#fusilier
I accept that the Hackle and Flash are a Golden Thread but I would not class calling the lowest rank Fusilier as such.
Even though we have only been using the rank of 'Fusilier' since 1923! There is no getting away from the fact that it appears on their ID Card, even the ones posted into the 2nd Bn from ITC Catterrick have Fus and not Pte on theirs. Yes granted they were posted in to 2nd Bn instead of 1st Bn but they are called Pte, when their Pay Statement and ID Card is Fus.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKSniper
Taffyloonytune,
My earlier reply to a definition of Fusilier it has nothing to do with the hackle or flash. By definition a fusilier must have served with a regiment who carried FUSILS hence the title FUSILIERS.
Regards Don
Gentlemen,
I have just read a most ill informed e mail that I have seen for many a year. The title Fusilier was granted to the RWF In 1702. It was one of the first regiments to be granted the singular honour of a Fusilier title and so we were known as THE WELCH REGIMENT OF FUSILIERSF from 1702,The "ROYAL" accolade was earned fighting in the WAR OF THE SPANISH SUCCESSION in 1713. I suggest some of the new comers do a bit more home work on what was once a truly great regiment To suggest that the hackle and flash epitomised or was responsible for our title FUSILIER is pure fiction. We had it long before the 1920;s.
Regards Don
The hackle, although a visual emblem, was never a big part of my link with the regiments history. I didn't see the point. I think it means more to the RRF.
For me the most important "Golden Threads" were The Flash and the title Fusilier.
Looking back to my days as a 17yr old Fusilier, I can remember NAAFI discussions, amongst other youngsters, where we were convinced that we were paid more than yer average Private....sounds daft now, but we really believed it. I suspect that title means more to the lowest ranking soldier in the 1st Bn, than perhaps senior officers and non 1st Bn members realise.
How can you say my post was ill informed. I never said you weren't called Royal Welch Fusiliers or The Welch Regt of Fusiliers. I am saying that Private soldiers have not always been called fusiliers. That only came into play in 1923. The information came from your (RWF) Museum website. Are you telling me that the information displayed on that website is incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by richard@jungle1810.wanadoo
The museum website clearly states "Since 1923 ordinary members of the Regiment ('Privates') have been officially known as Fusiliers".
I accept that the Regiment has been called Fusiliers in the title Royal Welch Fusiliers/The Welch Regt of Fusiliers since 1702 but up to 1923 the lowest rank was called Privates. The hackle and flash were mentioned as your Golden Threads and no mention was made that they were responsible for the title Fusilier. The title fusilier for a Private soldier has been mentioned as a golden thread in earlier posts. This is the post my reply was aimed at.
Gents
I’ve read with interest over the last few weeks all the points raised in regards to the title of Fusilier/Private and I believe it’s a discussion that can and probably would go on forever………. However I personally believe it’s time now to accept that both battalions are what they are and more importantly we should be concentrating on forging new links with what was the RRW who are now part of our family and us theirs THE ROYAL WELSH and finally god protect both battalions in these difficult times.
Sid Burns
Hello,
I did not look at the site quoted re the Fusilier sobriquet I think a lot of ambiguity exists over a few things RWF to the uninitiated. For a start the book of RWF S.D.G.W. lists all men not having received stripes as Privates. To the best of my knowledge when R.H.Q.s have information from the M.O.D.on soldiers from most regiments they are listed as privates.this in turn is converted to the title the regiment concerned prefers to use. In a nutshell all men who do not hold a rank are privates, this diktat is still in vogue today.For example to the best of my knowledge some one from the Rifle brigade is called a private by the M.O.D.It may well be that "Sappers" correct title according. to the M.O.D is also a private.I respectfully suggest a look at page nine of T.A.I. by Michael Glover will help clarify things. It appears I hit a raw nerve some where along the line.But i am no doubt that the title fusilier has been in vogue for many a year.Some books to improve knowledge of the RWF apart from the one quoted above is T.W.T.I.K by Captain J.C,Dunne.There are many others to numerous to mention in this e mail
Regards Don
Hi All,
I have like Sid Burns, been following this thread with some interest and you could say some amusement.
Its been a good debating point on the forum, but I now think that it has now worn thin, as older members of our old Regiments/Battalions, who are we to say whether members of the Royal Welsh should be called Fusilier or Private with the new dress regulations for the Regiment who is going to distinguish which Battalion that soldier is from let alone if he/she is a Fusilier or Private. I believe that this forum is for adult people to debate and discuss matters, so let us not get ourselves "shirty" over the Fusilier/Private debate, because at the end of the day its the Battalion Commanders choice of what he/she wants his/her soldiers title to be.
May the Force be with.
BennytheBall
well said sid my feelings exact