Turkish Cannons/Field guns

Upon their return to Britain following their two periods in Crete in 1897 and 1898, 2/RWF apparently brought with them 2 Ottoman (Turkish) field guns, sometimes described as 'cannons'. (I'm not sure exactly when the guns arrived back in Britain, it was probably late 1898.) The guns are currently mounted as guard-guns outside the Manchester Regiment Museum in Ashton-under-Lyne.

Anybody point me in the direction of finding out how/why they were brought from Crete in the first place and why they are now part of the Manchester Regiment Museum?

Many thanks

Mick McT.

Hi Mick,

The handover occurred in 2003 according to this piece: http://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsga...ocus/creteguns

Many thanks. I had seen that. What I'm particularly interested in is how the guns got out of Crete in the first place; when the RWF finally left Crete in 1898, there were major diplomatic rows about the whereabouts, and ownership of all the artillery on the island, and it seems odd that two Ottoman guns were 'liberated' without apparently appearing on the records. The next question of course is why ended up with the Manchesters?

Hi Mick, Interesting mystery. Have just e mailed The Manchester Regimental Museum asking if they can fill in some of the blanks on the history of these guns and how they came into their possession.

I have just started a new thread on the Manchester Regt Forum. Perhaps the experts there can shed some light on this mystery.

John

Unfortunately the members of the Manchester Regt Forum know no more than we do. The only information they could give was taken from the link already mentioned by Al in post #2.

John

Still waiting a reply to my e mail from The Manchester Regimental Museum

Just come across an interesting article on the web entitled " The British in Crete 1896 - 1913 ". In this it mentions that as part of the multinational force, the British via the Royal Navy removed a number of artillery pieces including 6 field guns and 233 cases of ammunition.
However, the 2nd Battalion is not mentioned in the article as being among the occupying British troops but clearly they were from September 1897 till August 1898, when the battalion was sent to Egypt( This may have been because there was an outbreak of fever in Canea and a number of British troops left the area for safer areas. ) returning in September till December of 1898, when they left for Hong Kong.
Now this is a leap in the dark. Is it possible that the guns were brought out at the same time as the battalion and landed in either Egypt or Hong Kong and then taken into care by the battalion, then to the UK.

I have asked LtGen Riley and LtCol Crocker for further information. LtCol Crocker was curator of the RWF Museum in 2003, so he might know more.

John

The Mystery remains. Neither LtGen Riley nor LtCol Crocker had ever heard of the Crete guns. They will search the minutes of the Trustees for clues.

John

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...33aada9f28.jpg

Found that photo on Pinterest, original is held at The Regimental Museum. It shows the "Cannons / Fieldguns ", outside the Officers Mess, Wrexham Barracks, there is no date recorded.

However, it is must be prior to 1960 as the small artillery piece in the centre which was captured by the 2nd Battalion during the Boxer Rebellion and presented to the U.S. Marines sometime in the 1950's. Now to my memory the Officers Mess was demolished in the 1990's and I assume it would have been at that point the guns in question would have been moved but where too, perhaps to be restored.

off subject slightly,what happened to the cannons that were at the depot Crickhowell

Bill Bateman (Malaya Vet) phoned me yesterday. The cannons were at Hightown in the early 1950's when he went through basic.

I have again e mailed the Manchester Regimental Museum, requesting any information they have with regards to the field guns. Reference number for the request 15178784, logged time 10.4.2017 at 00.50.56 hours, plus their system tells me that they will reply within 20 working days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welchboy

I have again e mailed the Manchester Regimental Museum, requesting any information they have with regards to the field guns. Reference number for the request 15178784, logged time 10.4.2017 at 00.50.56 hours, plus their system tells me that they will reply within 20 working days.

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Received confirmation of receipt of my e mail. Let us hope that they can supply information how they came into possession of the guns.

Do not know how other forum members feel, but I would like to see them back either at Wrexham Barracks or The Regimental Museum, if that were possible.

According to Lt Col Crocker a grant was received for restoration of the guns on condition that they should be displayed indoors. The Museum had insufficient floor space and could not take them.

John

Had a reply to from the Manchester Regimental Museum, stating that my query has been passed to the Curator Mr. Garry Smith you will reply once he returns from leave on the 18.4.2017.

My recollection as Regimental Secretary is that these Guns were originally on display outside HQ 3rd Battalion The Royal Welch Fusiliers at Hightown Barracks, Wrexham. A survey by an expert who had had been part of the Bells Gun restoration at the Regimental Museum was also asked to look at the various guns at Hightown Barracks. The report found the guns to be in a very poor condition with rotten woodwork and so much so that they were a danger to public safety. The Guns were not captured as an action of the Regiment but were better described as' booty' from a period of occupation. The guns were made up from items from different sources and periods, I seem to remember the the carriages were possibly Napoleonic. THe estimates for restoration were beyond the means of the Regiment, remembering at that time the significant sums spent on the Museum Restoration Project. The trustees decided that the guns were not of significant regimental interest as they were not from an action or 'entire' originals. It was therefore decided that they could be offered to other collections in a better position to manage them properly.

The Manchester Regiment took an interest in the guns and it was agreed that the would be transferred to their collection on the proviso that they were restored properly and displayed with a notice of their Royal Welch connection. I attended the opening ceremony at the council building in Ashton-under-Lyme and noticed that the Prince of Wales conducting the opening took interest in the beautifully restored and displayed guns and read the attribution notices, which was most pleasing as our conditions had been fulfilled. It should be remembered that the Regiment has fought alongside the Manchesters in both World Wars as part of the same Division they provided Machine Gun support to the Regiment. This I feel binds us to the Manchesters and we are honoured that they are proud to display artefacts that were originally in Royal Welch ownership.

The survey report of the Guns should be available at the Museum. I think that an article may have appeared int Y Ddraig Goch at the time.

I trust this is of some use .

as ever

Bob Lake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Lake

My recollection as Regimental Secretary is that these Guns were originally on display outside HQ 3rd Battalion The Royal Welch Fusiliers at Hightown Barracks, Wrexham. A survey by an expert who had had been part of the Bells Gun restoration at the Regimental Museum was also asked to look at the various guns at Hightown Barracks. The report found the guns to be in a very poor condition with rotten woodwork and so much so that they were a danger to public safety. The Guns were not captured as an action of the Regiment but were better described as' booty' from a period of occupation. The guns were made up from items from different sources and periods, I seem to remember the the carriages were possibly Napoleonic. THe estimates for restoration were beyond the means of the Regiment, remembering at that time the significant sums spent on the Museum Restoration Project. The trustees decided that the guns were not of significant regimental interest as they were not from an action or 'entire' originals. It was therefore decided that they could be offered to other collections in a better position to manage them properly.

The Manchester Regiment took an interest in the guns and it was agreed that the would be transferred to their collection on the proviso that they were restored properly and displayed with a notice of their Royal Welch connection. I attended the opening ceremony at the council building in Ashton-under-Lyme and noticed that the Prince of Wales conducting the opening took interest in the beautifully restored and displayed guns and read the attribution notices, which was most pleasing as our conditions had been fulfilled. It should be remembered that the Regiment has fought alongside the Manchesters in both World Wars as part of the same Division they provided Machine Gun support to the Regiment. This I feel binds us to the Manchesters and we are honoured that they are proud to display artefacts that were originally in Royal Welch ownership.

The survey report of the Guns should be available at the Museum. I think that an article may have appeared int Y Ddraig Goch at the time.

I trust this is of some use .

as ever

Bob Lake

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Just had reply from the curator of the Manchester Regimental Museum with regard my earlier e mail. Unfortunately he just refers me to the original article.
So thanks Bob for supplying the most comprehensive answer to the questions raised.