RWF WW2 POW Grandfather research

Hello there!
I'm new here & getting used to this so here goes:

I am wanting to learn more about my grandfathers past and history although as he is no longer with us, I cannot personally ask;
and I am having to ask around family members and use key words and names across the internet to find some clues to his past.
He never kept anything from the war nor did he ever speak of it much to his children. Nor do we have any photographs of him when he was in war or young.
He said he had his items stolen twice when he was being treated for various diseases out there.

If you do know how I can go about this information or know something yourself or any photographs he may be in I would be very greatful as I have never seen him at a younger age;

Although we do not know his army service number these are all the information we have going by what he has told my mother when he was alive:

Name: Joseph William Reynold Keirl
Born: 6th Dec 1915 in South Wales (Treherbert/Glamorgan South Wales)
Royal Welch Fusilier
Stationed in India (gathering possibly 1st or 2nd bat as he only mentioned being in India?)
Was a RCM or CRM?? & Cook at some points
Was in hospital twice due to disease one time was Yellow Fever where
-his belongings were stolen from him both times.
He was captured by the Japanese and held as prisoner of war; he was torched (he had scars across body)

I have searched across many websites to try find information including national archives but nothing shows up his name. I will be going through the veterans page to pay for his service details, but I would also like to see if anyone would have any photographs he may be in or anything that he could of been a part of during his time in India ww2.

Kind Regards,

Chantelle Rowley

A good start would be to apply for your grandfather's service record. Full instructions here: http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/sho...-WW2-PERSONNEL

John

This is a useful link and website: http://www.fepow-community.org.uk/html/research.htm

Good luck!
Lars

Hi Chantelle,

A warm welcome to the Forum.

I've checked the RWF Enlistment database 1920-1941, he doesnt appear in that.

Also to our (current) knowledge none of the men from the 1st or 2nd Bn, who went "missing in action", whilst fighting the Japanese, ever made it to a POW Camp, a stark reality of their situation. I'm wondering if he was perhaps another Welsh regiment. I think Baconwallahs suggestion of applying for his service record is worth a try.

A search at TNA for his japanese index card or his liberation questionnaire will give his service number and possibly his regiment/battalion. Quite a few RWF's from enlistment were sent to other regiments but retained their original RWF numbers.

I think finding his service number would be of help in getting his service record.

Lars

Thank you all for your help!
I have the papers from MOD ready to send off just awaiting my mother to find his death cert to gain his service record/medal info.
I have tried to gain more information from my mother she recalls 'Queens Royal Regiment' being a familiar term but obviously not too sure as it was so long ago.
I'm wondering if he was taken to unit 731 as he was 'Torched'
Should probably definitely have another look into National Archives again. Could it be possible some files have been destroyed in the war?(someone mentioned this to me)

Thanks again
Kind Regards,
C Rowley

hi..
Forces War Records list only 1 Keirl. but that is a J F. But he was The Queens Royal Regiment. His Service No was 1678585.


ivor

Hi again.

Looking on Family Search there is an entry for Joseph R Keirl. Birth Registered Mar Quarter of 1916. this is a normal occurrence as parents had 6 Weeks to register a birth and as he was born early Dec 15. the Birth was Registered in the Pontypridd district.

there is always the possibility of Transcription errors when dealing with hand written documents so it may be worth having a look at this WF Keirl.


ivor

Yes I came across this Keirl and thought maybe the R handwritten looked like an F. Thank you.
I spoke to my mother today and the letters RSM or QSM she remembers him talking about I don't know if these have any significance to his search. She also stated he had two tattoos on his shoulders of women one Lydia other Gertie. The marriage to a Lydia L Turtell is one of 3 wives(one died of a tropical disease in hospital while they where together I'm gathering they both caught in India) this also on the family search website.
What other Welsh Regiments could I look at if he wasn't a RWF or could he of moved to?
Thanks again

Kind Regards,
C Rowley

Hi.

these are Army Ranks...
RSM Regimental Sargent Major.
QSM Quartermaster Sargent Major.


ivor

Good Morning.
I have had a look at the Regimental History of The Queens Royal Regiment (West Surrey) Historically the 2nd Regiment of Foot. Throughout the war the 1St Battalion was in India, Burma. So they were in the right place. They were involved at the Battle of Kohima as were the RWF.
As this is a quite unusual Surname, unless other members of the family were in the same unit i think there is a very Strong Possibility that J F is a transcription error and is your grandfather.
However i could be wrong.


ivor

hi

i have an interest in Surnames and this is unusual. so i had a look at it's origins. the following is a link re surname

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Keirl



ivor

Thank you for your help.
Strangely enough I did the same name research last night and ended up on the same website of name origins.
I did initially think it was a middle-eastern name possibly romany, as apparently his grandparents are from that area.
I have come across a fair few joseph keirls and keirles across south wales and somerset and London way which is interesting.

Yes I looked into the 1st Battalion of The Queens R Regiment as to my mother the name rings a bell(could also be wrong army) but they did concentrate in India-Burma. Another thing I tried to research as my mother mentioned he visited the Taj Mahal in Agra, so I could possibly trace a British army passing through Agra way to rule out any battalions. Although would a South Walian be located to other English Army battalions?(I'm new to how Army works)

Thank you again for your help!
I sure have spent weeks every night learning and researching putting peices together.

Kind Regards,

C R Rowley

hi.
according to the unit history. the 1st QRR was stationed in Allahabad.Utter Pradesh Northern India. some 350ish Miles from Agra. This was a North West Frontier Post and they were there for over a year, so as he was a married men i can see no reason why they could not have visited the Taj Mahal, if he had a few days leave. So this again puts this unit in more or less the right place.
With regard to the name Keirl, I was considering Eastern Europe maybe Polish,Rumanian that sort of area. But Eastern Europe and South Wales have one thing in common, Coal Mining. I know that a lot of Poles worked in the North Wales Coal Mines and i believe the same was true of the South. so was it a case that his parents, maybe even his Grandparents moved to S Wales, maybe from the London area for Work.
My own Fathers Family were from a small Village in North Wales. but my Grandfather had to move to Liverpool for work, which was where my father was born.
Now with regard to your point re South Walian men being sent to other units.i am not sure on this but i think a man could chose,to a degree, what unit he joined.
It may have depended when he joined up if he joined pre 1939 he may have been able to chose more easily than after the War started. but i am sure that others on here may have more info on this



ivor

Hi Chantelle,

Not sure about Kohima (April/May 1944). Don't you have them(Lydia) getting married at Newport Mons?

hi AP

RWF at Kohima..

e Royal Welch Fusiliers distinguished itself in many campaigns; of note are Minden in 1759, Yorktown in America, Albuhera in the Peninsula, the saving of the Colours at Alma in the Crimea, the Relief of Lucknow during the Mutiny in India, the unique honour gained after the Boxer rebellion in Peking and their heroic stand in 1944 at Kohima on the borders of India.


The Queens colour of the 1st Btn of the QRR carries the Honour ''Kohima''


ivor

Hi Ivor & AP1,

That is great research to help guide mine further thank you. What other Welsh /British regiments were stationed in India do you know?
I cant seem to further that other than Kents, Welch and Surrey so far.
Nothings certain yet, although we know one wife was a Lydia Turtell, not sure if she went along in India also, research stopped as I couldn't find hear death date or any other research.
I remember my mother mentioning letters (she does not know meaning of)such as 'CRM' could this be 'Chief Radio Man'? She mentioned he was there when war was first declared. Also a cook. Details are so blurry on these although I'm more worried about finding him on an army battalion for definite firstly.

Regarding the surname, yes he mentioned his family originated from Middle East so I am gathering as he was born in a 'Valley district' of south wales it was for Mining.

Kind Regards,

C Rowley

hi.
Free BMD is giving me a marriage to a Lydia Turtell in Sept quarter of 1944. Newport. it also gives me the following.

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1944 (>99%)
KEIRL Joseph W R Turtell Newport 11a 446
Marriages Sep 1945 (>99%)
Keirl Joseph W R Yates Surrey N.E. 2a 426
Marriages Jun 1954 (>99%)
Keirl Joseph W R Johnston Holywell 8a 940
Keirl Joseph W R Jones Holywell 8a 940

this is rather peculiar.

Lydia death is recorded in Mar Qtr 1945.

It would appear he married a Helen M Yates in Sept Qtr 1945. I can not find a death registration for Helen.

and in Jun qtr 54 he married a Mair jones or Johnston.



ivor

hi

It would appear that it was Helen that went to India and if she died there that might explain why i am not finding a record.

ivor

hi.

i am going to stick my neck on a block here. i have a feeling that you don't need to look any further than the QRR's ( west surrey). he married Helen M Yates in NE Surrey. I think that there may have been a family connection to the Surrey area. you would need to go back further, to your Great Grandfather or earlier, to find if there was family still in that area.

i will see what i can find


ivor

Yes for very definite the Mair Jonstone/Jones is my Nain(grandmother)
I couldnt find death dates for Lydia so thanks!
I didnt even bother looking into the Helen M Yates as I was unsure about the Surrey part.

My mother was sure one wife died of a tropical disease (could possibly be in India) so could be either Helen or Lydia.

Thank you very much for the huge amount of help!

Kind regards,
C R Rowley

hi.

Lydias death was registered Newport so it must have been Helen who went to India.and probably died there.



ivor

Ah I see now!
Thank you. I will look further

Kind Regards

C Rowley

Ivor, I'm well aware the RWF were at Kohima..lol….remember I did the blow by blow account of their action in 2014! My point was it's unlikley that Chantelles grandfather was there in 1944, as he was getting married in Newport, a few months later and how would that fit with being a POW!

I'm not 100% sure how he became a POW, as he was in the UK in 1944…Did he get captured previously and escape? Or was he captured later, possibly with the QRR? or am I missing something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vori101

hi AP

RWF at Kohima..

e Royal Welch Fusiliers distinguished itself in many campaigns; of note are Minden in 1759, Yorktown in America, Albuhera in the Peninsula, the saving of the Colours at Alma in the Crimea, the Relief of Lucknow during the Mutiny in India, the unique honour gained after the Boxer rebellion in Peking and their heroic stand in 1944 at Kohima on the borders of India.


The Queens colour of the 1st Btn of the QRR carries the Honour ''Kohima''


ivor

---

Have you tried FindMyPast, i'm sure they have the death registers of family members who died abroad with the Forces/Civil Service

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladyC

Yes for very definite the Mair Jonstone/Jones is my Nain(grandmother)
I couldnt find death dates for Lydia so thanks!
I didnt even bother looking into the Helen M Yates as I was unsure about the Surrey part.

My mother was sure one wife died of a tropical disease (could possibly be in India) so could be either Helen or Lydia.

Thank you very much for the huge amount of help!

Kind regards,
C R Rowley

---

Hi ap1.

sorry senior moment. that hadn't occurred to me. but he could not have been married again in 45 if he was a PoW. Odd and i have come up with something else which is odd which i will post later.


ivor.

Hi again.

First i can find no family connection to Surrey. it would seem that the main family grouping was around Bridgewater area. But The QRR Depot was Kingston - on - Thames, which is in the NE Surrey Registration District, where he was married to Helen.
As Al points out, he could not have been in India in 1944/45.From the dates of his weddings. this is another puzzle.



ivor

Hi.

As i said in a previous post, i would try and go back to Josephs Parents. Well, Problem. Josephs Birth is Registered Under his Mothers Name Only.No Father.


Joseph R Keirl
England and Wales Birth Registration Index
Name Joseph R Keirl
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1916
Registration District Pontypridd
County Glamorganshire
Event Place Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, Wales
Mother's Maiden Name (not available before 1911 Q3) Stanfield


But as can be seen he is registered as Keirl. But also under the name Stanfield is.



Stanfield
mentioned in the record of Malras L Keirl
Name Stanfield
Gender Female
Child Malras L Keirl
Name Malras L Keirl
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1918
Registration District Pontypridd
County Glamorganshire
Event Place Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, Wales
Mother's Maiden Name (not available before 1911 Q3) Stanfield..

and also from Sept Qtr 1914.

Keirl Beryl M Stanfield Newport M. 11a 518


But No Fathers Name.
Trying to find the Mothers Name. there are i think 2 possibilities.
1) Natella Constance born June Qtr 1889
2) Florence Lilian Born Mar qtr 1892.

There is a record of a Frederick Keirl marrying in1891. but the possible names with that entry are 1) Ruth Watkins, or 2)Annie Farrance. there is No Record of a Keirl/Stanfield Marriage. So i am now Very Puzzled.

I do not know if this info is any use, i hope so, but on what i have this is as far as i can go.


ivor

Oh gosh seems I had a senior moment on that one too! ha
Seems pretty weird, my mother only knows of two wives before her mother so things aren't certain from our side.
Yes Ive come across the name Stanfeild although no other names and no father.
I know Joseph had a sister but never knew until yesterday that it was Malras.
I haven't had a chance to further research today although I'll ask around family members to see if any of these names ring a bell.
Thanks a lot! I'll try rinse some more info out of my mother tomorrow noon and piece things together.

Thank you all for the help very appreciated

Kind Regards
C R Rowley

morning all.
Chantelle.
Do you have any knowledge of the other Stanfield Daughter From Newport.from the Sept Qtr of 1914.

Beryl M Keirl.

she would have been a year or so older than Joseph.


ivor

Thats amazing! thank you! Havent come across this name yet.

Ive actually just found a family member who has a huge lever arch file of family birth/deaths/marriages dating back to 1328 and living in Taunton Somerset. They came to this country in 1328 from Ghent which was then Flanders (now Belgium). They were wool workers and they fled from their country to here to avoid religious persecution.

Frederick Keirl was my Great Grandfathers brothers son who was possibly in QRR.

I will get back if there is any history involved in the RWF at all!

Kind Regards,

C Rowley

Hi,

Found out his possible service number from first marriage certificate his number is : 3959526 although second cert states 38.. (not sure why)
He was a CQMS & his wife was a canteen assistant for N.A.A.F.I. So I'm told.

Only states him as Welsh Regiment.

Still unable to find anything on him. So I will hurry the process along for gaining his record.

Kind Regards

C R Rowley

Ok, well done. He has to be "2nd Welch" Not RWF of course. Here we go……

Wiki:

The 2nd Battalion had been retained in India but in October 1944 the battalion moved to Burma as part of the 62nd Indian Infantry Brigade attached to the 19th Indian Infantry Division where it joined the British Fourteenth Army, led by Bill Slim. The Battalion saw its bitterest fighting along the Taungoo-Mawchi Road where for a hundred miles, with deep jungle on either side, the Japanese defended vigorously all the way. In November the battalion crossed the Chindwin River at Sittang, captured Pinlebu and saw some very hard fighting on the Swebo Plain.^[13]