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Gentlemen,
I have been contacted by the son of David Griffiths 1RWF, he is going to France to lay wreath on anniversary of his fathers death. 29 May 1940. Buried Calonne-Sur-La-Lys Cemetary.
Any info on what the Bn was involved in around this time would be welcome.
Thanks
Judy
They had been disputing the Germans trying to cross the Escaut river. Hopefully someone will have a war diary extract.
ATB,
Lars
Found it in the Vault:
AM - Orders issued for a move to a Bde concentration area at ST JAN - SER - BIEGEN, N of POPERINGHE.
Route - VIUEX BERGUIN, STRAZULE, HETRE, GODEWAERSVELDE, ABEELE, WATOU.
Having reached THIEUSBOUK, N of HETRE, without incident, the column was fired on by enemy tanks moving south from GODEWAERVELDE. Enemy fire was at this stage ineffective, except for heavy casualties suffered by 67 FD Ambulance, who were leading the columns. HETRE was also being heavily shelled at the time.
It was decided to turn the column and make for METEREN.
1300 - The column was subjected to dive-bombing and shelling attacks. The weather had hitherto been fine.
About 1400 there were signs of an approaching storm. Rain started and continued very heavy until dark. Aerial activity was completely washed out and the column was consequently able to reorganise and move on.
At 1630 the column was on the road running north from METEREN to ST JAN CAPELLE
At METEREN French arty, horse transport and many kinds of MT comong from the south, had got jammed in the Bde column. The column was in consequence completely immobilised. The French eventually cut the traces of their horses and deserted their vehicles.
All efforts now concentrated on clearing the route. Just before dark the column began to move again, making in the general direction of POPERINGHE30
Judy, there is a (very long) thread on the subject of the St Venant fighting here: http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/sho...40-farm-boulet
You will find further information in a series of articles in YDG 1954-56.
I can send you a copy of the WD, YDG articles and a copy of the French account, both edited by LtCol Sinnett, if you PM me your e-mail address.
John
Judy.
Ivor here. i have been involved with this thread since the beginning and as John said it is very long (83 Pages). to save you time i will try and find the relevant stuff. But basically by the 27th the battle of St Venant was over.
I will have to recap a bit re this thread. the purpose was to try and find the last resting place of a Private Anthony Corkhill of 2DLI. who was last seen although wounded, not thought to be serious, alive on 27/5/40, on the side of the Canal, by his RSM Goddard. He is then declared Dead,Official records, on 29th. Sgt Griffiths and another also died on that date. There are 14 'Unknowns' in Calonne Sur La Lys and if my memory is correct some of them have the same DoD. Do you know if Sgt Griffiths was wounded. i ask this as there was a German Field Hospital in Calone. We know this from record, it was based in the School. also RSM Goddard was told, by the Germans, that because Pte Corkhill was wounded in both legs and unable to walk he would be treated by the Field unit.
It may be of interest to your contact to know that although Sgt Griffiths is now buried in Calonne Cemetery he was probably Originally buried with the others in the Field behind the School. They were relocated during the ''Field Grave '' Clearances 1941/42.
Judy. this last bit of info is --''For Your Eyes Only''--- there is on record of a Nasty piece of S.S Garbage, i think his Surname was Dix, going around hospitals Shooting wounded PoW's around this time . As the Front had moved on towards Dunkirk the Hospital was to be moved. It would seem that the wounded may not have been considered part of this move
I was at both cemeteries this week including a quick recce of St Venant. I have both the diary and the battalions Missing Men file for this period - I know I'm a little late to the party but if you post up his details I can see if he's in the Missing Men file - It's odd ish that his date of death is a couple of days later than the show at St Venant.
Drew.
if you read my last thread you may realize that it is possibly not at all odd. Sgt Griffiths and 2 known others died that day, as may have some '' unknowns''
ivor
According to recently released records WO417(WW2 Daily Reports, missing, dead, wounded & PoWs) on FWR, David died on the 25th May 1940.
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/att...tid=3853&stc=1
Hi Al.
This is odd as CWGC.web page for Calonne
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.as...name&order=asc
shows 29th. same service no
ivor
The CWGC database is not free of errors, I'm afraid. Unavoidable in a project of that size.
John
I wouldn't trust FWR either - They are as dodgy as a dodgy thing on a hot dodgy day.
Anyway I find one entry so far of him in the Missing Men file and he's listed as C Company and Dead, not missing. I'm still looking...
I wouldn't trust FWR either - They are as dodgy as a dodgy thing on a hot dodgy day.
Anyway I've found one entry so far of him in the Missing Men file and he's listed as C Company and Dead, not missing. I'm still looking...
Edit - That's all I could find on him in the missing men file looking at nominal rolls.
Agreed, but that record group is still a useful resource. What was the date given of his death on your source?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew5233
There is a date. The page appears to be the Missing Casualty Report No. 238. It has C Company written at the top and lists his name rank and No. all typed and then dead written in hand.
Do you not have a copy of the 1 RWF and Missing Men file covering the BEF?
No! Everything I have is 44/45 NWE/Burma.
hi all.
the date of 24th is a bit suspect as well. the W.D. tells us that on that date the Bgd was in Calonne but were not in action until the evening when they came under fire on approach to St Floris. this is the action in which Lt Garnette and others were killed. These men are buried in St Floris. But the CWGC give the date of 23rd as DoD which i think we accepted in the other thread.
This would mean that on 24th the action had moved from the Calonne area to St Floris/St Venant area. this would mean that if he was killed in that area it is highly unlikely that he
would be buried in Calonne. there were British troops still in calonne as Bgd Hq. was there at that time. i do not recall that any action took place there around that time. i think it was some days later that the Germans reached the area.
This is why i wished to know if he had been wounded, as that would have been a possible reason for him to be in Calonne, in the Field Aid Post. as we know that at least 3 Brits died on that day and i think that some of the 14 unknowns may also have died the same day, which i am going to try to confirm, this leads me to the suspicion raised in my earlier post
Ivor it was the 24th that dad said the Royal Berks platoon were hit by friendly fire on the south side of the canal from Haverskerque, of course how accurate his memory is after so many years and he being 96 is anyones guess
The cwwgc records for Haverskerque say dads mate died on the 25th so it may be that dads memory is faulty or after so much time before his body being moved from the roadside grave to the cemetery the date is wrong on his record.
Rank:Lance CorporalService No:5336849Date of Death:25/05/1940Age:19Regiment/Service:Royal Berkshire Regiment 1st Bn. Grave Reference: Row EE. Grave 12. Cemetery:HAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERYAdditional Information:Additional Information:Son of Laurence Bright Joynson and Ethel Vera Joynson, of Warwick.
You D-Day fan boys-Don't you know the battle may have been lost in France during 1940 but it was where the war was won :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ap1
Get another order when you are ready and you can have the BEF stuff for free ;)
thanks Dave.
I think your dad is right. I think in this instance the CWGC are right that Lt Garnette and the others were killed on 23rd. This would allow time for your dad's Co and A & C Co RWF to have passed through St Venant, which was undefended, on 24th. But if Sgt Griffiths had been killed on 24th it is very unlikely that he would have been buried in Calonne, several miles away. I would have expected him to have been in St Venant or St Floris.
Apart from him being in Hospital at Calonne. there may be another possible reason for him being in the Calonne area at that time. as we know on 27th a number of men were being marched away as PoW's, which is when RSM Goddard saw Anthony. there may be the possibility that these PoW's may have been held in the Calonne area for some time while other pow were rounded up prior to being marched off to Poland. But unless we know if he was wounded, or cause of death we can only guess.
ivor
So here's the page from the Missing Men file. Incidently I would recommend anyone who has the battalions war diary to get this file to accompany it. There's some cracking first hand accounts in it but like most of my BEF stuff I never have time to read through it properly unless I'm researching something specific (2/6 East Surreys at Aumale currently). Anyway I'll post an example of a witness report on the fighting around St Venant in a bit so you can see what I mean.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/9oxFyM.jpg
This is quite a good one and he seems a decent Platoon Sergeant who I would have happily followed
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/Zhj68K.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/8VoGRp.jpg
Happy to report Sgt Lee survived the war!
Hi all.
First Drew this is interesting info. But we have to be careful as we have 2 threads running about the same battle. This evidence is important,Drew, as i confirms something in the St Venant thread. Sgt Lee's report states that they went forward at Dawn on 25th.
Dave. i am going to assume that your Dad's unit would also have gone forward on 25th. towards (Haverskerque) the N.West of St Venant, where L/Cpl Joynson was killed in what appeared to be a F.F. Incident. Probably this location is why he is buried in Haverskerque .
Now this is where Sgt Lee's report gets interesting. They first RV'd at the bridge then ''Withdrew under heavy fire and we were exposed for the greater part of the withdrawal''. this would seem to indicate a withdrawal to St Floris where the defensive line was supposed to be. Col Harrison then ordered them back to St Venant.
Now from Drew's document there is an entry against L Moule dated 27th saying PoW Stalag VIIIB. But the entry against Sgt Griffith like that of Anthony Corkhill, just says Dead, no KIA or Died of Wounds, just Dead. i believe that there is a very strong possibility that he Died on 29th along with Anthony Corkhill and Wilfred Roberts of the KORR and may be others. at the German field hospital at Calonne.
ivor
Ivor yes I agree not surprising after 75 years and dad being 96 that he may be a day out. I now have a copy of the history of the royal Berkshire regiment1920/1947 by Gordon Blight which states. I know this is not the RWF info however it does give a perspective of the 3rd battalion in the brigade in the area. This seems to confirm dad was a day out in his date
May 24th It was not until 4.30 am on the following morning (May 24th) that the 1st battalion clambered once more into buses and sped by way of Genech and Seclin to La Bassee. The road had been bombe, and was congested with traffic and swarms of refugees moving in all directions. After waiting for two hours at La Fossee, north of La Bassee, they were told that the Germans were already ahead of them near Merville but that they should continue their move, protected by there carrier platoon, and seize the bridges over the Aire canal at Guarbeque south west of St Venant. After passing through Merville, where the situation was obscure and the confusion considerable, the bus column came to a stop, and the battalion spent the tail end of the night resting where they were.
It goes on to say that the move was carried on the 25th May, one column heading towards Guarbecque via St Venant and the other to Haverskerque
Hi All.
Can any of you knowledgeable guys out there help.
The first picture from Drew.
Acquittance Roll ( all Arms )
It lists 17 men is signed by a 2nd Lt on behalf of the O.C. a Captain. and is Dated 27.4.40. Is this a Nominal Roll of 'C' Company.
My knowledge of English is pretty good, but the use of Acquittance is a puzzle. In normal use it means..
A Settlement of, or Release from, Debt or Liability.
So i wonder if any of you kind folks could give me a clue as to what this list is actually about.
ivor
hi all.
I have been looking at this ''Acquittance Roll ''. the nearest i can get is. it is the list of men who were Not Present at the last Pay Muster to sign for their money. But this does not mean they were missing just that they may have been away on other duties. From the date on the list i am assuming that the last pay muster would have been 26 or 27/4th, and this is the list of men in ''C'' Co. These could not have been 'Missing '' men as L/Cp S Evans is mentioned on the list and we have the report of his presumed death on 25/5 in the report of Sgt Lee.
any ideas please..
ivor
An acquittance role was produced by the Pay Office for each company, so that they could be paid or even make payments. In my early days of soldiering, we signed the roll at Pay Parade. So on that date in April 1940, they listed every man serving in the company. Obviously they never got a chance to produce a newer version as events overtook them. So that what they used to tick off the men. If you notice, it has the word "Imprest", that points to it being an army pay document.
Just to add, there are quite a few of these in the 1940 Missing Men files with many of them showing the amount of pay in Francs the soldier last drew and the soldiers signature against the amount, as Al has pointed out above.
Hi all.
had a major problem with laptop had to do a ''refresh'' which means i have had to do a large amount of reloading.
Right. This must be the Final Nominal Roll of 'C' Co before hostilities. so it may not have been that accurate by 23/5. I have read Sgt Lee's report a couple of times, and i notice that it was not written until almost 3 yrs later. so i wonder if his dates are a day out.
However, something else is odd here. To try and verify dates, i have been trying to find any info on L/Cpl S Evans.3955136. I Can Not Find Any. using CWGC Search, Nothing, not even on Dunkirk Memorial.
Now. i know this is not part of the original question But as i have the same Surname i will try and find out more about him. Did he Die as Sgt Lee suspects and if so why is he Not on some Memorial. or is he an ''Unknown'' in St Venant.
Stanley Evans was killed. In the Red Dragon, the date of death is listed as "5/40"
Thanks Al.
but you realize that is very vague.and Sgt Lee's statement could have been used to narrow the date down to around 24/5 ish. But the problem is. not so much as exactly when he died. but why does there seem to be no record on any Memorial in the area or No apparent info with CWGC.
ivor
Only the exact date of death is a mystery. No wonder bearing in mind the circumstances. No known grave, but he is remembered on the Dunkirk Memorial
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/ca...ANS,%20STANLEY
thanks Al. i missed that somehow. But i still think that on the basis of Sgt Lee's report he should have had a grave marker in St Venant
ivor
Morning all.
from a very warm and sunny Malta.
OK. a question i posed earlier in this thread.. Was Sgt Griffiths wounded. I think that the answer is important not only to explain why he was in Calonne, but, if he was wounded in the battle of St Venant it may be evidence that British wounded were actually taken by the Germans to the Field Hospital. If this is the case then it would be good evidence that Anthony Corkhill. (St Venant thread) would also have been taken there. there are 2 others just Dead, Wilfred Roberts of the KORR on the 29th, (calonne). and 4189032 Cpl E Jones, on Drew's List, was he wounded and taken to Calonne as well. if there is Any Evidence for this idea, then i think it possible that we can put forward a case to CWGC of Reasonable Cause to Believe that at least Anthony Corkhill is an ''Unknown'' in Calonne.
ivor
You will need more proof than that regarding Unknown graves. I have identified one officer in a Unknown 2nd Lt grave in Esquelbecq that was murdered during the Wormhoudt Massacre with various pieces of information from the National Archives. He's even buried next to a Cpl Webber who was murdered with him in a barn. I live with the fact I know who it is and anyone who googles him will as well as all the info is on the net. I'm currently researching a second chap for around 12 months who's medals I have and I think I identified his grave along with another from his battalion on a trip to France last month but I still have some way to go yet on him.
Thanks Drew.
I agree with you. But, it is my belief that the German Med units would have treated Anthony as they said and he would have been taken to the Field Post. If we can find any evidence that this was done, it will help. The fact that a KORR man was there would seem to indicate that this was the practice. i think, will have to check, the KORR were either to the South or East of Calonne when the came under attack. I don't recall them being part of the St Venant Battle.
But any evidence that would reinforce the possibility that Anthony was taken there would change the situation from him being a '' No Known Grave''to the possibility he is an ''Unknown'' in Calonne. This may be of some comfort.
Now in the course of the St Venant thread. War Crimes Files were investigated. There is a File for the St Venant/Calonne crimes, but it was never followed up as the alleged offender (Dix) was killed somewhere to the East. But it proves that 'War Crimes 'were recorded in the area. we can not do anything about this but it may be of benefit to some.
ivor