Gresford Colliery Disaster - RWF Perished

According to YDG. 27 serving and former members of the regiment perished at Gresford Colliery in Sept 1934.

So far I've managed to identify 12 men……any others tucked away in your databases anywhere? This info will form a small section in Vol 5 RRRWF.

Thanks in advance.

4RWF
Bdsm F Hampson - HQ
Dmr TR Cornwell - HQ
Fus GA Clutton - HQ
Fus A Davies 70 - HQ
Fus M Davies 48 - A Coy
Fus J Parry 82 - A Coy
Fus RT Stevens - B Coy

Former Members:
Sgt John Rowlands MM - ex
Sgt Joseph Archibald - ex
Sgt RE Tittle - ex
Sgt I Jones - ex
Fus Albert(Harry) Ross - ex

None in mine, Al

John

Another 7 names. Pictures also available on FB.

WH TRoberts.
William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
John Kelsall
Walter Wineyard
John R Parry
Edward Llewelyn Rogers

A joint effort between myself and Richard thus far. 17 in the bag 10 to go:

Confirmed RWF(assumed to be Ex)
William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
Walter Wineyard
Edward Llewelyn Rogers

Confirmed Serving with 4RWF(YDG)
Bdsm F Hampson - HQ
Dmr TR Cornwell - HQ
Fus GA Clutton - HQ
Fus A Davies 70 - HQ
Fus M Davies 48 - A Coy
Fus J Parry 82 - A Coy
Fus RT Stevens - B Coy

Confirmed Former Members:
ex Sgt John Rowlands MM
ex Sgt Joseph Archibald
ex Sgt RE Tittle
ex Sgt I Jones
ex Fus Albert(Harry) Ross
ex Fus WH Roberts.

Needs some help on this one:

"Henry Evan Owens aged 54 of Cunliffe Walk, Garden Village, Wrexham originally from of Bagillt died on 22nd September 1934 in the disaster at Gresford Colliery."

See the poor quality scan of a cert of service below. I've almost convinced myself it says Royal Welsh Fusiliers…..I'm slightly perturbed that it is issued in London District.

http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/att...tid=3832&stc=1

Al

I can't read it properly but from what I can he is a Royal Defence Corps man number 30617 or similar in 327 or similar PC (Protection Coy). The RDC in its entirity were admined by London area TF. The route to being RDC (bar being enlisted straight in after they were formed) is
TF (National Reserve)
TF Battalion (in this case 4th)
Supernumeray Coy, TF Bn
RDC

Where does the name Henry come from?

Hywyn

edit: I see now that it's the Colliery sheet that gives the Henry bit.

I had a dabble at the RDC some time ago. Looking at my notes now I see that I determined that RDC numbers 30553 to 30643 were men from No 1 Supernumerary Coy 5th Bn and that they were 323 Protection Coy. (Don't ask me to explain how I arrived at this!!)On that Cert am I seeing his number as 30617 and the Prot Coy is 323?

I presume the Cunliffe Walk address is a 1934 address. He might previously be from 5th Bn catchment area.

Where's the Cert of Service from?


edited

Further edit. Doh! I see you already say he is from Bagillt. I'm slipping!

His papers are in Service Records under his Supernumerary Coy number of 20066. Address of Chirk Cottage, The Boot, Bagillt.

Which Page/Group are they to be found on FB?

Back of the net! Well done Hywyn, great work. Don't really know much about this mob. So is he or was he RWF. In other words, does he get included on the RWF Death List as an ex member of the regiment? I'm currently not getting great internet (in the van at Carnforth), so Ancestry's a little difficult.

Gresford Disaster NWMAT. Appreciate it if you can have a look at a few other possibles on there. Mainly guys in uniform with no visible badges…but full names etc.

I'm not hundred percent whether he had an actual 5th Bn number when he enlisted 1915. The number 650 shown there might be his National Reserve number. However, his attestment shows he had previous servicve in 2nd VB RWF so, yes, he makes the list I'd say.

Shall I pitch in on the FB page or are you going to?

Crack on Hywyn, neither myself or Richard could pin him down.

Many Thanks. Thats 18 found. Potentially 9 to push.

I've put a request in to join. I have no public face on that FB though so they might not accept me. See how it goes. Do you know the admin


That William Henry Taylor was 69288 RWF later 85411 Durham Light Infantry

Thinking about Evan Owens again. He is definitely ex RWF. The 20066 number is a 5th Bn Supernumerary number. Allocated by RWF.





Here's what I have previously written re the Supernumerary numbers:


Re 20xxx numbers.

Last week I started getting to grips with the Supernumerary Coys. These were the ones you will know, that guarded installations eg Marconi Wireless Stations, Bridges, Power stations etc.

So far my conclusions are that all four TF battalions had them.They were mostly National Reserves (TF) men and either had a NR number (5th Bn) or a TF number ( 6th and 7th) Initially known as Defence Coys before complying with army orders regarding forming Supernumerary Coys around May 1915 and renumbered. They were to use numbers staring 20001 (per TF Battalion)

The strength of a Company being around 130 men.

4th Bn had one Coy (highest number found 20155)

5th Bn had one Coy (highest number found 20148)

6th Bn had four Coys (highest number found 20648)

7th Bn had one Coy (Highest number found 20146)

In April 1916 they were transferred to the RDC. There appears to be a pattern emerging of their RDC numbers.

You can therefore see the duplications of 20xxx numbers, especially the lower ones, abound! For each number between 20001 and 20146 there will be 5 men, one in the Regular series and one each for the Supernumeraries of each TF Battalion.(& so on higher up the range to 20648)

Mark Prince 41 Manley Road was 25332 RWF, later 126851 RAF where his do b is shown as 1970!! (He was 44 when enlisting in 1915 though) The FB entry shows aged 50 in 1934. 1901/1911 census shows him born 1875 (whilst Birth Register shows 1874 and Death Register shows 1875. Might the FB entry be a typo for 60? He has a son also called Mark Prince born 1899/1900. Can't find anything about him but all told the Mark Prince in the pit disater is most likely the eldest one.

Re Jabez Jones. Given what is said about him on the FB page, born 1881, collier etc he is very likely to be Jabez Jones RAF 407124 who was previously 7865/200797 RWF (according to MICs, but he had been transferred prior to the 1917 renumbering though)

Re Joseph Henry Gittins, 11 Abenbury Road: The cap badge looks to be Welsh Guards. Very likely (link between two addresses needed) then to be Joseph Henry Gittins 5617 Welsh Guards of 12 Offa Terrace, Ruthin Road. UK Service 1915 to 1918. Nil RWF connection seen.

I've sent a message to Margaret Jones (admin), hopefully we can get you access.

Ta Al.

Arthur Bew was 49082/4183969 RWF.

How much of a write up are you doing for Vol 5. Just name and number?

Yes probably. I'm just helping JR gather in the detail. He is planning to list the serving and ex members. As a footnote in the regiments history it should be documented anyway. I'm pretty certain the Gresford group will be grateful for any extra detail about some of the men that you tease out.

OK. She has accepted the request now. I'll put some stuff on later

John Edwardson, High Street, Gresford. Very likely 6766 4th RWF of Pant Cottage, Gresford. Has service papers showing right age


Slight problem is matching the 1934 addresses to wartime/Post 1920 book addresses.

I do wonder if there may be more than 27. I assume that figure was based on the serving who died, coupled with those men who were members of the RWFCA.

Having not fully read up on it I was going to ask you where the figure 27 came from.

There is the slight difficulty with matching wartime men's addresses with the 1934 ones hence the 'very likely' marker at the moment.

Re Post 1920 book I haven't got addresses etc after the first 7000 i.e 4178001 to 4185000 (where most wartime men are to be found) and only rely on JTs database (sorted into name order*)to match a name which is a bit of an effort with the Jones etc obviously.

Your/JKs decision whether the very likelys are the right ones of course. Where are we up to now with the 27? It's not going to be easy to match the Jones etc


* if you have also sorted it into name order bear in mind, especially with the 'common' surnames, that JT will have entered some in a slightly different format. Given the vast amount of inputting this is not surprising (and not, repeat not, a criticism) His most common format is SURNAME/comma/space/CHRISTIAN name. Those that are not so formatted show in the sorted list after the main bulk. Hope that makes sense.

The figure of 27, comes from the message from the Kings Private Secretary to the regiment, which was published in YDG Dec 1934.

Totals so far: 25

Confirmed RWF(assumed to be Ex):

William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
Edward Llewelyn Rogers

Confirmed Serving with 4RWF:

4186383 Bdsm Frank Hampson - HQ
4183662 Dmr Thomas Richard Cornwell - HQ
4190685 Fus George Albert Clutton - HQ
4182570 Fus Arthur Davies - HQ
4188348 Fus Mathias Davies - A Coy
4191282 Fus John Richard Parry - A Coy
4190774 Fus Richard Thomas Stevens - B Coy

Confirmed Former Members:

John Rowlands MM
4183216 Joseph Archibald
4187087 Ralph Edward Tittle
4178003 Iorwerth Jones
4179329 Albert (Harry) Ross
4186286 William Henry Roberts
20066 Henry Evan Owens(Later RDC)
69288 William Henry Taylor (Later DLI)
25332 Mark Prince (Later RAF)
8690 Walter William Wineyard
4183969 Arthur Bew
4183750 Thomas Dodd
200512 Ernest Jarvis
4188103 Albert Edward Cartwright
4187086 Albert Strangehttp://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/att...tid=3835&stc=1

Starting to add in full names and Service numbers.

The list* has Albert Strange, aged 25 of 21 Nelson Street (with comments in one thread that his brother Frederick died a day or two later, maybe disater related.)

Anyone got address for Albert Strange 4187086? Served 1926 to 1930. If not address then age/fathers name.

Poss for Frederick is 4190467 if someone has address/age for this one.




* If you haven't gotthe full list it's under the Files tab towards the top of the FB page.

1911 Census has an Albert Strange aged 1, living at 16 James St Wrexham. Father, William Henry Strange aged 35.

Both Fred and Albert are listed on the memorial page.

I can check unconfirmeds DOB's against the register a week Tues. Just need a consolidated check list by the Monday.

My prime suspect for the formerly serving I Jones :

5087 A/Sgt Iorwerth Jones 4RWF

Additional evidence is the photo - looks like four medals to me. The above man got a 1914 Trio and TFEM in 1920. Later number 4178003. He left the regiment 4th March 1933.

Richard

We'll go with that Richard.

Many Thanks.

John Rowlands is causing me a headache.

I have no John winning the MM with the RWF. Of the four "Rowlands" the choice is below. Clearly one stands out, Thomas, but he was 31 when discharged in 1918.

25135 Sgt Edward Rowlands 17RWF, born Tredegar.
37042 Pte Edward T. Rowlands 16RWF, Born Conway
7008/200304 Sgt Thomas Rowlands 4RWF
26180 Pte Thomas Rowlands 17RWF, Born Brynguran

The only John Rowlands I can find winning the MM is 14017 Sgt John Rowlands 7SWB - as far as I can see no connections with RWF

Now - I can't find my Waziristan gallantry boys I think from memory there were four MMs and one chap may have been a Rowlands .....

Not a Waziristan MM. Found the list.

Have not applied any great brain power to this list yet - it is just a list of potential matches between enlistments and the Gresford casualty roll

Surname	Christian Name	Vocation	Age	Birth Circa	Possible	Possible	Possible	Possible	Possible
Hughes	Robert John	Collier	29	1905	4178163	4185015	4190699
Jarvis	Ernest	Cutter-man	41	1893	4178188
Griffiths	Edward Charles	Repairer	25	1909	4178290
Davies	Hugh T.	Borer	26	1908	4178542
Jones	John Richard	Repairer	33	1901	4178662	4182932	4185400	4185775
Davies	John Edward	Collier	32	1902	4178765
Goodwin	John	Packer	51	1883	4178962
Jones	John Robert	Repairer	55	1879	4180809
Edwards	John Edward	Collier	39	1895	4181309	4181320
Edwards	Frank	Pipe-man	23	1911	4181503
Crump	William	Cutter-man	36	1898	4181591
Jones	Albert Edward	Borer	31	1903	4182000	4183192	4184681
Hughes	Harry	Cutter-man	44	1890	4182435	4186236
Edwards	Ernest Thomas	Ripper	53	1881	4182448
Clutton	John Thomas*	Rider Haulage	35	1899	4182548
Davies	Samuel	Filler	35	1899	4182609	4185084
Phillips	John	Filler	40	1894	4182737
Collins	John	Shot Firer	62	1872	4184308
McKean	Joseph (John)	Repairer	30	1904	4184682
Hamlington	Arthur	Repairer	62	1872	4184686
Davies	James	Repairer	37	1897	4185502	4188915	4190963
Davies	Edward	Packer	53	1881	4185625	4186312
Salisbury	William	Fireman	36	1898	4185686	4181575
Johns	Percy	Packer	27	1907	4186083
Clutton	Arthur	Packer	29	1905	4186381
Jones	Idris	Haulage	37	1897	4186594	4178445
Jones	Daniel	Repairer	33	1901	4186606
Baines	David	Haulage	26	1908	4186976
Strange	Albert	Collier	35	1899	4187086
Cartwright	Albert Edward	Packer	24	1910	4188103
Parry	Issac	Repairer	40	1894	4188296
Jones	John Dan (John Samuel)	Repairer	42	1892	4188423
Davies	Peter	Filler	25	1909	4188579
Davies	Peter	Borer	21	1913	4188579
Jones	George Humphrey	Haulage	22	1912	4188812
Hughes	Cecil	Packer	23	1911	4190148
Jones	Cyril	Collier	26	1908	4190259
Buckley	Albert	Haulage	21	1913	4190633
Evans	Joseph	Cutterman	32	1902	4190646	4185029
Edwards	Albert	Repairer	62	1872	4190912
Rowland	John David	Haulage	17	1917	4190946
Parry	John Edward	Haulage	31	1903	4191282

I can't recall where I picked up the "MM" tag.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...-scale-2083944

Mentioned by the surviving son…Albert. No mention in the YDG articles though. which is where I would expect to see it in the death notices.

To start the list Al. Both Hywyn and I think this chap is worth following up in the Enlistment books (We can keep adding to make a list for the others we think a check is worthwhile):

Cartwright

Albert Edward

Packer

24

1910

4188103

Re Ernest Jarvis.
Have just put this on the FB page.
"I can put ErnestJarvis 7382/200512 RWF (served 4th & 19th Bns) to 4 Little Vownog , Bersham in 1919. In 1920 he was aged 27 when he enlisted in 4th Bn TA. Served to 1927Married Fanny Bailey Anders in 1920. All told, same man I'd say"

There is mention on the page that his father Edward was on a local WW1 memorial. EdwardJarvis, Army Service Corps R4/062719 died in France 27 12 1916. His papers show he was from 4 Little Vownog. Same man then.

Albert Edward Cartwright 4188103

Born 12/5/?? I messed the birth year!!...sorry
Enlisted 2/2/1928
Disch 1/2/1932

Address: "Father" Florence St, Rhosddu Wrexham (I think he was a boy when he joined).

Occupation. Haulage - Colliery

Confirmed RWF

4187086 Albert Strange
Born 7/10/1907
Enlisted 19/5/26
Disch 18/5/30
Address: 21 Nelson St, Crispin Lane, Rhosddu Wrexham
Confirmed RWF - No 25


His step-brother 4190467 Frederick Strange a serving member of 4RWF died a few weeks later.

Born 14/11/1911
Enlisted 18/2/1931

Died 14/10/1934 (Still serving) "Dead" written in register...This is the later death a few weeks after the disaster.