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Linked to the below photo, which is from Blairys superb collection, currently displayed on Facebook. I don't think these guys are named, but with the amount of silverware on display, I wondered if there was a small chance some of our experts may be able to pick out the detail. I wonder if its a "Survivors" picture at the cessation of hostilities. There's a diverse grouping of rank shown? Brilliant picture.
Attachment 3027
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hi.
interesting pic.as you say lot of silverware. If someone can confirm. if these guys are wearing ''Pip Squeak and Wilfred'' then the photo can be dated to later than 26 July 1919. This being the date that the British War Medal was established. So i would think you are probably right in it being a ''Survivors''pic
ivor
Had a look at this blown up 250 % but im afraid the image is to poor quality to say for certain what medals are worn however I believe there is two officers with the Military Cross and several appear to be wearing the 14/18 or 1914 star certainly three medals on several men are in the correct order for the WW1 awards but the third meadal on far right seems to have a solid centre stripe which of course the Victory medal does not, according to http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ww1...ign-medals.htm this is the story Pip, Squeak and Wilfred
Pip, Squeak and Wilfred are the affectionate names given to the three WW1 campaign medals — The 1914 Star or 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal respectively. These medals were primarily awarded to the Old Contemptibles (<abbr title="British Expeditionary Force" lang="en">B.E.F.</abbr>). and by convention all three medals are worn together and in the same order from left to right when viewed from the front. The set of three medals or at least the British War Medal and the Victory Medal are the most likely medals to be found among family heirlooms.
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ima...lustration.jpg When the WW1 medals were issued in the 1920's it coincided with a popular comic strip published by the Daily Mirror newspaper. It was written by Bertram J. Lamb (Uncle Dick), and drawn by the cartoonist Austin Bowen Payne (A.B. Payne). Pip was the dog, Squeak the penguin and Wilfred the young rabbit. It is believed that A. B. Payne's batman during the war had been nicknamed “Pip-squeak” and this is where the idea for the names of the dog and penguin came from. For some reason the three names of the characters became associated with the three campaign medals being issued at that time to many thousands of returning servicemen, and they stuck. so assuming this is correct the picture must have been taken in the 1920s.
A better scan at 300 dpi or more would help.
John
Agree John, dependent on the quality of Grahams original. Looking at the WO next to the right side officer, both he and the Sgt appear to be wearing DCM's
I agree whilst a higher res scan may help it will do so only if the original is good enough but lets give it a go anyway if possible
hi all.
have tried this in a couple of photo programmes. without any success sadly there does not seem to be enough detail on this copy to enhance.I have used both Photoscope and Gimp which although free progs are good.
I am interested to know if the crosses worn by the two in the center of the 2nd rank are the Military Cross. as it is the only one i can find which is that shape.
It would appear that some are wearing ''pip squeak and wilfred'' and a couple of ''Mutt and Jeffs'' However i am puzzled that a couple appear to be wearing 2 stars.
any ideas anyone.
ivor.
Blairy sent me a bigger copy and I'll try to identify the officers.
Can't see a bar on any of the Stars, which seems to exclude the 1st and 2nd Bns.
John
Blairy's informed me he received the picture from Richard Ward. I'm assuming Richard will know who the unit and perhaps individuals are.
Richard does not know and asked if I could help ........I cannot so put it to a bigger audience ...
It would be good to date it first I think....any uniform experts? I think its a mixture of young and old sweats.... I have to say that the lad sat in the front with the Warrant Officers arm on his shoulder looks the spit of a guy who won a VC from the 10th Bn...Pte Albert Hill VC. I know it will be wrong, but its a start.
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But sadly without the VC.Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1
John
Thats true John, but as of yet, no-ones come back with a date of the picture. Do you think its great war or later?
The BWM was approved in June 1919, Al, and the VM in September 1919. As they are well represented in the photo, I would say it was taken in very late 1919 or more likely 1920. Hill would have been wearing his VC by then.
John
hi guys.
i found the following whilst exploring.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...owtopic=188532
could be of some interest.
ivor
hi all.
As i said in an earlier post. i had this pic ''blown up'' in my photo prog. it would appear that,at least to me, that there are 2 officers ( seated centre ) a WO as someone identified. a Sgt seated 2nd from Right. A corp standing behind (Left) the WO and next to him a Lance Cpl. also and i may well be totally wrong here. the chap wearing Webbing, standing behind (R) the Sgt appears to have an odd white ring around his neck. Could this possibly be a ''Dog Collar'' and this person was the Chaplain.
now. there are 11 men wearing ''gongs''. 10 in centre pic and one rear rank 2nd from rt.when i was looking at this in detail i was at Chows, and we both seem to think that the 10 men in the centre may be the remnant of a unit which had just been awarded their ''gongs'', the other men may well have been transferred in to bring the unit up to strength.it seems to me the make up is
2 Officers.
1 Wo.
1 Sgt.
1Corp.
1 LC Corp
1 Chaplain (possibly)
1 Civy. and
22 OR's.
does this No have any significance
Now that i am back in Malta i will look again as i am now on a laptop not a netbook.(much bigger screen)
however i am still of the opinion that this pic could not have been taken before late 1919 or 1920.
ivor.
The 'chaplain' is wearing the tunic and webbing (complete with ammunition pouches) of a rifle-and-bayonet man. I venture to suggest that he is a rifle-and-=bayonet man. He does have a rather long neck, though, which may explain the confusion.
You missed one Warrant Officer, Ivor!
John
hi john.
ok. i accept what you say.It was pure speculation because it looked odd.
However it makes little difference to my conclusion just add a WO and delete a chaplain.
the point i am trying to make is this. Take away 2 Officers and 2 WO's would this Number of men constitute a Platoon, i am not sure how the structure works. for instance would a plt have a Sgt, Corp and a lance cpl.
ivor
I may be mistaken here, Ivor, but the officer on the left, MC but no Star, has pip and crown on his shoulders. I have yet to see the first platoon commanded by a Lt Col. Even if I'm wrong about the crown (which I think I'm not) he would be a full Lt and more likely 2 i/c of a company in the austere everything-on-the-cheap post-war period. Anyway, he looks a bit old for a Lt.
A platoon would have had some 50 men organised in 4 sections of 12 men commanded by Sgts assisted by section Cpls
So the photo may show half a platoon, with battalion commander, platoon commander, two warrant officers (i.e. company level), one Sgt and one Cpl (one Sgt and one Cpl missing?). A curious assortment.
John
He would have been either of Lt - Capt rank on the award of the MC during the Great War.
thanks guys.
as we have 2 Officers wearing the MC then this should,possibly make things a bit easier as this will be on record. if the senior officer is not wearing either star then it would seem to indicate that he may have been UK based until 1916?
Is there an official list of MC holders in the records. If so it may be possible to narrow it down even further. was it a fairly common thing to have 2 Officers with the MC in a HQ unit.
i thought a platoon was 24 men ?
ivor
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
I wish. I'm working on it, though, Will take time.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
Yes, it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
Not in the Great War.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
John
Not necessarily, Al. A lot of gongs were handed out in 1919 without a personalised citation. The London Gazette listed the recipients under "General Citation". He may have been a Lt Col by then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1
John
Understood John, my point was that his decoration would have been earned in the great war and within that rank range.
Hello,
When I done my basic training in Brecon, we had an R.S.M who won the M.C. His name was "Tiny" Evans he won the M.C. during the second world war.I was made to understand the situation was that "Tiny" was in a melee and all the officers were put out of action." Tiny (then took command of the remaining troops and led a counter attack which was successful).He was awarded the M C for this action. I know that today O.R.s can win the M.C. But "Tiny" ( he was about 6 foot 2 inches hence the non de plume) as a W. O. and having a warrant won the M.C. This action took place in France to the best of my knowledge and he was serving with 1/R W F. I came across him in 1950.
Regards jungle1810
Hello,
In respect of the number of men in a platoon as Baconwallah mentioned this can vary over the years. When I commanded 10 platoon in Malaya we had 45 men in the platoon.
This largely stems from the fact that at the time the 2nd battalion R W F were a battalion at higher establishment (1200 men and rumour has it 300 + were named JONES.We also had a Major adjutant Major Eggleton. Added to this the R W F placed about 80/100 men in the Welch to make their number up to scratch for Korea. Plus before we went to Korea which later turned out to be Malaya we sent a further 80 men approximately and they went to the 1st Royal Fusiliers and the Liverpool Regiment.
Regards jungle1810