G/Fathers service history

Hi , my name is Ron and I live in a small town in beautiful B.C. Canada . My Dad and I both have military backgrounds and were talking over supper one nite about his Dads service history . His Dad is long since gone but as it turns out he was a member of the RWF. I did some poking around the net and was quite surprised by the history that I found involving the RWF . My Dad and I both served with the 1st Bn.PPCLI (26 yrs. combined) and 5 yrs.,( Canadian Airborne Regiment , Dad ) . I've seen alot of extended military family fade away over the years but I'm lucky to still have my Dad as yet ! Al told me to just throw this out and maybe someone might be able to help fill in the gaps for us and in the process , we learn something along the way . In truth my brother and sister and I know little about my Dads side of the family as they lived in Winnipeg and Kingston in the early years , and as army brats we didn't see his family often as we were posted in Europe two times as well as other places . So whatever we can learn here would be a bonus for us and would be much appreciated . So you know , my Dad retired in"71' and I served 72-75 . Okay here we go ,Grandpa's name is Owen Lewis / no middle name /DOB June.07.1900 . Birthplace Holyhead , Isle of Anglesey . Apparently Owen enlisted in 1917 or 18 and served until his discharge on Apr. 11.1922 . His service number that I have is #4180120 . He was supposed to have enlisted at Cochester . My Dad also has a campaign ribbon with clasp belonging to Owen . The medals unfortunatley went missing many years ago when Dad was a young boy . Dad says the medal was issued for the North West Frontier , however Grandpa could have been in any one of several places given the time period . I looked up the medals on google and the time says North West Frontier - Abor -Afganistan-Masud-Wasiristan or Malabar . The medal name is the India General Service Medal . If this is of any use , one web page history had the Anglesey Bn . attached to the Carnarvonshire Bn. From what I know Carnarvonshire is in western Australia , so I don't know what the significance would be . Owen immigrated to Canada sometime after his discharge and then served in WW2 as a telegrapher . Any info you folks can rumage up would be much appreciated to my family ,Thank You in advance ,Ron Lewis & family .

Not an easy one, Ron!

I find five men in the RWF named Owen Lewis: numbers are 3413, 12593, 24932, 265914 and 202611.
3413 Lewis died in 1915.
12593 Lewis was posted to Gallipoli in 1915 and discharged medically unfit in 1917.
24932 Lewis was demobilised in 1919 but landed in France in 1915.
265914 Lewis was transferred to the Labour Corps late in 1917.
202611 Lewis was born in Carmarthen in 1888, landed in France with the Welsh Regt in 1915 and was later transferred to the Royal Engineers, the RWF, thew Welsh Regt again and then the Engineers again.

I find four of them unsuitable. Only 265914 Lewis could have been your grandfather, the number belongs to the series used by the 6th (Caernarfon and Anglesey) Bn RWF (TF) so sounds right, but the Labour Corps is a bit of a problem as it was generally the preferred posting for men classified below A1 (fit for front line service). However, he may have recovered and re-joined the RWF. The number you mention, 4180120, is a post-war number. The 1st Bn served in India (Waziristan) in 1919, and this explains the IGSM which had a bar for service there. Unfortunately we have no way of putting 265914 Lewis there with any certainty as his service record has been destroyed in the Blitz.

Caernarfonshire, by the way, is the NW corner of Wales, opposite the island of Anglesey. The Caernarfon in Oz was probably named after it.

I shall ask Clive Hughes, who is the expert on Anglesey RWF soldiers, to have a look at this thread. He may know more.

Hope this helps.

John

PS Some general info on 265914 Lewis: from his number it is clear that he joined the Territorials as a volunteer, not as a conscript (they were not posted to TF battalions as far as I know). There is only a six digit number on his Medal Index Card in the National Archives, so he was not sent to France before 1st March 1917 (when six digit numbers were introduced). The number does not tell us anything about the enlistment date. It may have been before or after 1st March 1917.

Hi John,

Just a thought. Because Owen served until 1922 wouldn't his service records have been held by the War Dept/MOD and possibly escaped the blitz? So should be available through Historical Disclosures?

Good thinking, Al. But as I assume that the Owen Lewis we're looking at re-enlisted in the RWF instead of being transferred back, the post-war record would not provide any info on [the possible connection with] 265914 Lewis, unless he explicitly described his previous service on his new attestation form. Many just answered the question about previous service with Yes and the name of the Regt. Only occasionally have I found a considerate recruit who lightened the load of future historians by adding his old service number and the dates of enlistment and discharge.

But there's no harm in asking for the post-war records anyway. I quote the South Wales Borderers Museum webpage:

All service papers for soldiers who served after 1920 are held at the Army Personnel Centre, Historic Disclosures, Mailpoint 400, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX. A fee is charged (about £25) for each search, even if no material is discovered. A special form has to be completed prior to the search. It is essential that you quote the Regiment and personal number of the soldier concerned. (Note: this information is usually engraved on the medals of soldiers). There is a long backlog of enquires at present so it may take some weeks to receive a reply. To download an application (SAR) form - visit www.veterans-uk.info click on 'Service Records'.

And that should do the trick.

John

"From what I know Carnarvonshire is in western Australia " splutter splutter coffee all over keyboard!!! :biggrinicon:


Google let you down there Ron. :-) Much the same as the abysmal indexing of a well known paysite has let us down in finding him. Owen Lewis 4180120 was previously Pte100395 and had an address of Garnedd Isaf, Rhosgoch, Anglesey (last digit missing in the index) IGS medal with Waziristan clasp 21-24 only if I'm reading it right.

Hywyn

That's brilliant, Hywyn! I had not found this one in the MICs. Problem sorted.

Found him in the NA set now. Didn't check that initially. Sloppy indeed.

John

Nice to know that John has such faith in my abilities as regards Anglesey men, but those who survived like Owen Lewis are less easy to track down...

Rhosgoch lies in Rhosybol parish, just south of the port of Amlwch. Owen is not an "Absent Voter" under that parish in the late 1918 Elections either because he wasn't absent then or because (born 1900) he was under-age for voting. He might have turned up on the 1919/1920 Absent Voters lists. In short, Hywyn probably knows more about him than I do.

The RWF Archives' Enlistment Registers should cover his service, however, with that post-August 1920 Army number.

However, just to demonstrate my diligence I checked my casualty list and, behold! On Rhosybol War Memorial is recorded a William Lewis , Private 20476 14th Battalion RWF, born Llanfechell Anglesey, enlisted Holyhead. Killed on the Somme 9 July 1916 aged 21 (one of a number of local fatalities to the 38th Welsh Divn. mainly from artillery fire in the few days before the attack on Mametz Wood): no grave - Thiepval Memorial.

The battn. embarkation roll December 1915 gives his next of kin address as Ty Newydd, Rhosgoch (as does the village war memorial); but according to Commonwealth War Graves his parents John and Elizabeth Lewis later resided at Garnedd Isaf, Rhosgoch. He seems to have been a Welsh Calvinistic Methodist (Welsh Presbyterian Church), and along with members from the Amlwch area who died, he is commemorated on a memorial in Capel Bethesda, Amlwch. His name is also on the Rhosybol panel of the North Wales Memorial Arch in Bangor, Gwynedd.

I suppose I am suggesting that William Lewis was a relative (?brother) of Owen Lewis. The 1901 Census provides a possible match in a family then resident at Caemawr No.1, Llanbabo (adjacent to Rhosybol), consisting of John Lewis age 26, a farm Carter, born Llanfairynghornwy; Elizabeth his wife aged 23 from Llanbadrig; children William aged 5 born Llanbadrig; John aged 4 and Ellen aged 2 both born Amlwch; and then Owen, aged 9 months at the end of March 1901, born Llanbabo - all of them monoglot Welsh speakers. All these places are in north Anglesey. As regards non-matching information such as birth parishes for Owen & William, it is not uncommon for these to vary from Census to Census, or indeed any other sort of form required to be filled in!

Louie50 can perhaps tell us whether the other family members match those known to him. If so, it shows I can't add much to his knowledge of Owen, but it might reveal that Owen's brother was also a Royal Welchman who had already paid the supreme price, before his little brother was called up nearer the end of the same conflict.

Clive

Hi guys , all I can say is WOW !! . This is beyond belief what you guys have come up with in such a short time as this . I printed this all off and am going to mom and dads tomorrow to show them all of this . I was up there this aft for a bit and dad showed me a WW 1 medal belonging to his uncle John who immigrated to Canada after the war , probably around the same time as Grandpa Owen . He died in Winnipeg many years later and to my knowledge he never had a family . The medal shows 1914-1918 and on the edge is engraved LAN . FUS . The interesting part of the story is my Dad never knew he had an uncle William . He knew only of his aunt Ellen and uncle John and corresponded with his aunt from time to time in years past and apparently she never mentioned William and Grandpa never mentioned him at all either . I seems to fit if he was 5 years older than Owen then it seems likely that it was him that was killed at the Somme in July 1916 . As i said before there was not a lot of contact with family as my Dad joined the PPCLI at 16 and went to Korea and army life does not lend itself to family life at the best of times over the years . You just do the best that you can !

My Dad has a copy of Owen's birth certificate dated 1969 stating he was born in Llanbabo sub district Llanfechell in June 07.1900 and was registered on July . 17.1900 , so I don't understand the difference in birth dates , but I suppose it's like computers , it's only as good as the human who originally programed it . Owen's discharge paper shows that territorial was scratched out and that left reserve left , what that might mean I don't know . It also says that he served 3 yrs. plus 67 days . and was released on April . 11.1922 . Dad showed me his campaign ribbons today and he has 3 altogether , the IGS , Defense of Britain and the Victory Medal , both from WW2 . Apparently Owen was a telegrapher in both of his stints in the military. I just talked to Dad and he just finished talking to his sister Irene in Winnipeg and she said Owen always referred to his army age or his real age so it seems lying about your age to enlist kinda runs in the family . It seems that Grandpa caught malaria real bad while overseas in India and was laid up for quite a spell , so I wonder if that might have something to do with the Labour Corps , but the dates d
don't match up ?


I've been on here much to long , my eyes are starting to cross . There is a lot of info that you folks have given me and it 'll take some time to digest it all . Going up to Dads tomorrow and let him do some pondering over all this . Biggest thing being an uncle that died at the Somme . Incredible !! Anything else you can come up with would be great . I can't thank you all enough ! Have a cold one and a good one guys .Bye for now . Ron .

Disregard the Labour Corps, Ron, disregard my posts entirely. As I did not check the National Archives I missed the only suitable candidate. Fortunately Hywyn and Clive saved the day.

John

I'd forgotten about the later Absent Voters Clive.

The Spring 1921 one says Owen Lewis, Garnedd Isa (Rhosybol parish) was 4180120 RWF attached Signal Service Depot RE, India which ties in nicely with Rons' info about him being a telegrapher.

Autumn 1920 one is same info but his RWF number is 100395.

Hywyn

Hi guys , I took the papers I printed off to him this afternoon and we talked a bit and it turns out that his sister knew of uncle William that was killed at the Somme , but was only told he died in the war . While talking Dad said that Owen as a young lad would sit underneath the trains staition masters window and listen to the clicking of of the telegraph and then one day the station master grabbed him and gave him a paper with morse code on it and told him not to come back untill he had it memorized . The station master took him under his wing and taught him to work the telegraph and when he came to Canada years later worked as a farm labourer and then ended up working for the railroad as a telegrapher . In 1939 he enlisted in the Canadian Army and they found he had a signals trade and sent him to Kingston , Ont . for training and later was sent to London , England for the rest of the war . I found a web site that calculates dates and going back 3 years and 67 days puts his approximate enlistment date on or around Feb.04.1919 .


Dads sister also told him that one afternoon 30 + years ago that her and my uncle Jack were visiting Grandpa Owen and he related a story of a man crawling thru some mud in a bunch of flames reaching for him in some kind of vision . It scared him so much that he jumped up onto the windowsill until it went away . It turns out that he was 16 at the time . Strange to say the least , but who knows , right ?

Did anyone find out anything about John Lewis medal marked LAN.FUS ? . Is that Lancaster or llanfechell ? I don't know if Owens' brothers were Royal Welchman or not but I would bet that they were .

I never knew or met my great grand parents let alone know their names but thats what immigration does and I suppose I still have family from Dads aunt Ellen . I wonder if William received any medals or commendations ? Anyway it's getting late so I'll talk to you all later and it looks as though you have hit the nail on the head .Take care , Ron .

Rob, the Lancashire Fusiliers had eight men named John Lewis. Seven of them survived the war. I found some docs concerning one of them, a Regular soldier, 9669 Pte John Lewis, born Wrexham, butcher, enlisted Lancs Fus 30th July 1903 at the age of 18 years and 9 months.

Pte William Lewis 20476, 13th Bn RWF, was born in Llenfechell, Anglesey, and on enlistment in early 1915 gave his address as Rhosgoch. He landed in France on 1st Dec 1915, was killed on 9th July 1916, age 21, and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. His service record does not survive.

Hope this helps.

John

Ron

Williams' medal entitlement were a 'trio' i.e the 1914-1915 Star, the British and the Victory.

See
http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/themedals.htm

No gallantary awards that I can see.

The one for John Lewis with Lan Fus on the rim will probably be on of the latter two. Does it also have a number on the rim?


Hywyn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Pte William Lewis 20476, 13th Bn RWF, was born in Llenfechell, Anglesey, and on enlistment in early 1915 gave his address as Rhosgoch. He landed in France on 1st Dec 1915, was killed on 9th July 1916, age 21, and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. His service record does not survive.

---

Hi Ron, regarding William Lewis. Just to give your family something to look at in more detail. Its likely he was killed at or near Mametz Wood. This action involving the 38th(Welsh) Division of which the 13th & 14th Bn's RWF were part of, took place over the period 6-12th July. Its a fascinating story and exemplifies the wanton slaughter of the Great War and the unbelievable bravery of those in the midst of it. As a taster I would suggest firstly looking at the following sites:

http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/nbsomme.html

http://www.powell76.talktalk.net/mametz.htm

They give a very simplified overview of the units involved and the chronology. I should point out the Brigade your interested in is; 113th Brigade commanded by Brig. Gen. L.A.E. Price-Davies VC. Within the brigade there was 4 RWF infantry battalions. 13th, 14th, 15th & the 16th. After the attack on the 7th July Price-Davies made negative comments about the battalions under his command to his divisional commander, which he later regretted and retracted. Our forum historians can possibly give you a better overview of that battle and perhaps some good reading sources. One that springs to mind is "Up to Mametz" by Wyn Griffith. He was an RWF officer with the 15th Bn, but then became a staff officer with the 38th Div and witnessed the slaughter at Mametz. Hope this helps.

Ron,
If you can send me your email address via the Private Messages system, I'll be happy to forward images of the Rhosybol Memorial and of the name on the Thiepval Memorial.

Clive

Before joining the RWF Owen served in the SWB with the number 66813. He was awarded two clasps to the IGS, Waziristan 1919-21 and also the Waziristan 1921-24 Clasp. Looks to have been discharged on the 11th April 1922.

His service record should be available from the MOD Historical Disclosures, I think.