My Grandfathers Alfred (Bill) Cooper record

Could anyone help. I am an ex-pat living in Australia. I am researching my family tree, in particular my Grandad. I have discovered from his employer, Cadbury Bros of Bournville, Birmingham that during the First World War he served in France in the Royal Welch Fusiliers. His details are:

Alfred William Cooper (Bill)
DOB 25/02/1892
Place of Birth: Birmingham.
Started at Cadbury's 29/05/1907
Known address as of: 29/05/1907, 231 Victoria Place High St Stirchley Birmingham
Married: Nellie Gisbourne 1913 Kings Norton, Birmingham.

Thank you in anticipation

Martin

Welcome to the Research section of the RWF Forum, Martin.

The only Alfred William Cooper I can find in the Royal Welch was

Pte Alfred William Cooper 96786. Errand boy, born in 1896, from Peckham, London.

Not your grandfather.

There were also

Pte Alfred Cooper 5846,
Pte Alfred Cooper 60226, cycle maker, born 1880, from Nottingham, later 30643 Border Regt
Pte Alfred Cooper 67919,
Pte Alfred Cooper 93426,

I mention them because it occasionally happened that the middle name was not entered on the Medal Index Card.

Pte 5846 might qualify if he was a Special Reservist; he would have enlisted 08/1914. A man in the Regular Army Reserve with this low number would have been 20 or more years older than your grandfather. His Medal Index Card has him embarking for Gallipoli 28/06/1915, which puts him in the 8th Bn.
Pte 67919 might qualify. Enlistment c.02/1917.
Pte 93426 might also qualify. His number indicates late (c.08/1918) enlistment, possibly as conscript, or late transfer from another regiment.

So far that's all I can find.

John

Attachment 2470
Hi Martin, interestingly, we have a picture taken at the Malt Shovel pub in Birmingham of some RWF Comrades at a reunion in the 1950's. The pic includes "Hammer Lane MM"(3rd left) who was a well known member of the regiment from his exploits in the Great War.

The devil is sometimes in the detail Martin. Exactly what detail did Cadburys give you about his RWF service, dates etc. Everything helps.

Many Thanks

Great photo, Al! One minor correction, if I may: Pte John "Hammer" Lane 9198 had the DCM, not the MM. He earned it at Red Dragon Crater.

John

Thanks John, Im aware of his action that day, but thought it was an MM. Thanks for the correction....What a guy, the smiling avuncular Grandad!!!

Have a look at this thread started by JCJ, in particular Dons post regarding the recruitment of men from Birmingham in the Great War:

http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/sho...gham-Fusiliers

Hammer always said that he would have had the VC, but for an unfortunate brush with the authorities shortly before the Red Dragon Crater which had resulted in a healthy dose of FP No 1.

Private John "Hammer" Lane 9198 was a Nechells, Birmingham man and a former featherweight boxing champion of India; in 1917 he would win the Second Army Championship. He was nicknamed "Hammer" after his father James, a well-known Birmingham bare-knuckle boxer. Lane survived the war. His medals were always in the pawnshop, but he invariably got them out on Armistice Day. After his wife died, he reverted to his old army habits and cooked his food in a dixie. He died in 1959. The family draped a British flag over his coffin, as he had wished. [From the annotated edition of Old Soldiers Never Die)

Returning to the original problem, there were also 11 men named William Cooper on their MICs. Bill may also have been one of those.

John

Hi, thank you so much for your interest. The information they Attachment 2471Attachment 2472provided is on the attached image. Martin

We have very little to go on. Just the name, and 'fought in France".

Next week I'll be happy to list the Williams for you, Martin, but as for which one of them (or the Alfreds) was your grandfather, your guess is as good as mine.

John

thank you so much John,
I feel very sad that, having served in a theatre of war his memory is so faded.
Being in 'maintance of machinery' is the only possible link I can think of -presuming his skills were used in his area of expertise.
Martin

Just grasping at straws John, what about the 1918 Absent voters list. Perhaps using the address given by Martin...or perhaps the 1911 census. I've never seen an example, but i'm led to believe they sometimes provide regimental information if the soldier was still overseas??

Back from a few days in Ieper with four military historians from Dresden.

Good question, Al. I must admit I never used the AV Lists, so it's not a solution I would think of. In fact, I wouldn't even know where to find them. Considering my lack of expertise here, Clive Hughes or Hywyn might be better equipped to approach the problem from that angle. The same goes for the census lists as my Ancestry subscription does not include those, only the military stuff.

If Martin could give us some idea of when his GF was in France, we could perhaps eliminate the higher numbers.

John

Hello John, thank you for your interest. I simply do not know, I wish I knew more, with his dob as 1892 you would know better than I when he would likely have served. But thank you so much.
Martin

I had a look at the 1911 census, Martin, but without success. No Alfred William anywhere (but only the first name was recorded). No Alfred or William in Stirchley. For the Birmingham area I found:

Name: Wm Cooper
Residence: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Name: Mr A Cooper
Residence: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Name: Mr W Cooper
Residence: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Take your pick. No real evidence for any of these. Mr A Cooper could also be Albert or Arthur, or even Aneurin (if he was Welsh).

Deducing your GFs service from his 1892 DoB is not as simple as it sounds.

- If he was a Regular, he could have joined as a boy, earliest date 1906, number around 9500, or as an adult, 1910, number around 11000, or anywhere in between these dates. Or much later, of course, perhaps in a spirit of patriotism in 1914, or in 1917 to avoid the stigma of conscription.
- If he was a Special Reservist, he could have joined in 1910 or later. Special Reserve recruiting dropped off in 1915, so probably not later than that.

Living in Birmingham, he would not have joined a Territorial battalion. Too far away.

Working at Cadbury's and going off to war means either a Reservist, but he was too young for that, or a Special Reservist, or a War volunteer (Kitchener's Army).

Once again, take your pick.

Summing up: without a number or any other service related info we're not getting anywhere.

John

PS only one Alfred William Cooper in the entire set of Medal Index Cards: Pte Alfred William Cooper 314, Royal Army Medical Corps (TF).

John,

I have found, I think more probable information.

His regimental number was 136920, regiment name Army Service Corp (M T), Document year 1915.

Is this any help?

Martin

That is useful info, Martin.

Your Grandfather is in the National Archives medal index as Cooper W, M2/136920 Sgt, Army Service Corps. He never served with the RWF, enlisting directly into the ASC. I found his Service Record.

There is some confusion about his awards. An additional Medal Index Card says "Mentioned in Despatches", London Gazette page 13480. I checked the LG which cites the correct number but quotes the name as W Craske. The service record mentions a Distinguished Conduct Medal which I could not find in the LG. I shall leave further research on the subject to you, as my browser for some reason of its own refuses to display the LG pdf pages.

If you PM me your e-mail address, I'll send you what I could find in the National Archives: Medal Index Cards and Service Record.

John

Just as matter of interest Martin, how did you eventually get the more detailed info about your grandfather?

That is what I was thinking, Al. The "Document year 1915" suggests that Martin found William Cooper in the Ancestry Service Records index, which helpfully provides a birth year and an address (where available), but was unable to access the record. He would have to be a member of Ancestry for that.

John

Heavens John, you guys are good, so good of you to help. Quite right Ancestry was the source. He was not welsh the only welsh connections were the holidays fishing the river Mawdach with him on Vanner farm Dolgellue N.Wales - best years of my life!. Farmer taught me a few welsh words that I've never quite understood. Kindest regards,
Martin, Australia
email: casademartin@bigpond.com

Thanks Martin,

So for clarity, he never served with the RWF and the short excerpt from the company newsletter from his time with Cadburys which mentioned his RWF service was incorrect, is that right?

On further reflection the Wm Cooper with the ASC was not the man we are looking for. The search continues...

John

I could find only three service or pension records for men named William Cooper in the Royal Welch. out of ten listed in the Medal Index Cards. None of the three fits the description: one was younger, one was much older, one was discharged medically unfit the same day he attested.

No luck at all, Martin.

As a last resort you could ask Brian Owen, the RWF Museum curator. The e-mail address is on the Museum website. Another possible source of information is Graham Knight in Birmingham, who knows a lot about the Brummies who went to war. You can probably reach him through http://www.rwfphotos.co.uk/ or through his son Pete at http://www.oldcontemptibles.com/

If you find out more about your grandfather, please share it here with us!

John

Hello John,

Pete here. I have just picked this thread up via a backlink to my website. I will have a look and see what we can do I will pass the details on to Dad (Graham Knight). I would find it highly unlikely that the Cadbury record would be incorrect. Their archives are very methodical. I think there is a copy of their records in Birmingham University Library. I will check when I am next there.

Hope you are keeping well John?

Regards
Pete
http://www.oldcontemptibles.com

Good to hear from you again, Pete! It's been too long...

Any help with Wm Cooper would be appreciated. The Cadbury archives were very likely right, but lacking a service record it's impossible to say which Wm Cooper of the ten or so in the MIC index they mean. Martin doesn't have a clue.

How's the univ work going?

John

Hello John,

I will speak to Brian Owen. I was down at the archives at Wrexham a couple of weeks ago the Archives have now been completely moved and from what I saw a good job of it too!

The Uni work is nearly over I just have the dissertation to write up. I have set myself a bit of an impossible task I think. The Question I have chosen in the end was Were the 2nd Battalion RWF an "elite" fighting unit. They are certainly qouted a such in several books notably Ashworth's Live and Let Live and Paddy Griffith's Battle Tactics. Most who qoute the 2nd as being "elite" often refer back to Graves. I have looked for any other evidence other than Graves to support this but have turned up nothing. I have managed to get a line from Stockwell's Diary but otherwise nothing else.

The UNi felt there was not enough mileage in doing a dissertation on Frank Richards which was a bit disappointing but he will feature strongly as I want to use the original manuscript to sign post why Graves should not be trusted with the history but I haven't started on the journey yet. I need to pull my finger out as I only have 5 weeks left to do the 12,000 words.

Best regards

Yes, Brian told me you were his first researcher at the King's Mill.

Was 2 RWF an elite unit? What, to begin with, made an elite unit?

I don't think 2 RWF was an elite unit in the way some Australian and Canadian units were elite. They were an ordinary infantry battalion, perhaps a shade better than most others, but does that make them elite? With the variable quality of the replacement officers, and the questionable reinforcements with double hernias in 1918, it would have been very difficult to be more than just average, I think.

Best regards, also to your parents,

John

I agree totally with that John.

I will say hello to them both for you John.

Regards