I am trying to research the history of this S/NCO. He served in the 2nd Bn RWF in the First World War from the very beginning and survived.. He was from the Birmingham area.
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I am trying to research the history of this S/NCO. He served in the 2nd Bn RWF in the First World War from the very beginning and survived.. He was from the Birmingham area.
Hi AT
What do you know already so we do not try and re-invent the wheel. Smile
Regimental number 9826 ? DCM MM winner ?
Richard
Sgt Troman won his MM as a Cpl in 2nd RWF& his DCM as a SGT in the same Bn. The DCM was awarded for commanding his company for 9 months in the latter part of the war. I am trying to find out if he was a pre war soldier;and if he stayed in the army after the war.and also why his gallantry awards were forfeited in about 1922.. Both the awards were well earned so something must have gone badly wrong for Ernest Troman after the war.
Ernest Troman's number would indicate a 1907 \ 1908 enlistment. He was the son of the late Mr S Troman who formerly lived in Bishopsgate St, Birmingham. He was educated at the Sir Josiah Mason Orphanage and lived with his brother, Mr S Troman, himself an old soldier, at 102 Belibarn Rd.
He was 29 years of age when he was awarded the MM for his bravery in action at Polygon Wood on the 26th\26th September 1918.
His DCM shortly after. The clincher in the award of the DCM in addition to the seven months of exceptional good work as platoon sgt was when on the night of the 23rd\24th August 1918 he led his platoon against an enemy machine gun post with great skill and determination, and succeeded in capturing the post.
I have no record of him serving post war, nor his forfeiture. Have you tried locating his service papers at the NA ?
Richard
Sorry. Forgot to check the 1914 roll . . .
He is listed as having his medals being forfeited under KR 392 xiii
This meaning having been sentenced to be discharged with ignomony from the army. This was on the 2nd October 1920.
Richard
Hello Richard, Many thanks for your help in filling in some more lines in Sgt Troman,s story. It sounds to me as if he was subject to a court martial. I did try some years ago in the PRO, but the court martial records were a series of blank pages, Now I'm retired & have time I will be able to do a lot on line once I've learned to drive this computer that is! I take it that these records are more accessable to research now? I also tried to contact the RWF museum but their Email address isn't recognisable or so this hi tec marvel tells me.Thanks again alex.
Hi Alex
I'm pretty sure you are correct about the Court Martial. I've got my feelers out to see what else we can find out.
Incidently - do you have a picture of Troman ? If not send me your email address.
Regards
Richard
Hello Richard, No I'm afraid I don't have any photos of Sgt Troman, in fact that was why I was trying to contact the regimental museum to see if they had any of him,& also to try and find out which company (s) he was in. The only photos I've seen of 2RWF returnees at the end of the war is in endpiece 1 of 'Duty Done' which unfortunately only has the names of the five officers in the second row.In closing the other bit of information I have on Sgt Troman is that his middle initial was C ie E.C.Troman. You can email me at alexandermarshall60@yahoo.co.uk Thanks again Alex
Hi Alex
The author of Duty Done is a friend of mine. I have dropped him a query to see if he has any further info, as 2/RWF is his specialist subject.
I have just fired you off a picture of Troman that was supplied to me by Graham Knight. His son is a member of the forum so may pick up on this message. Maybe Graham might also be able to enlighten us ?
Regards
Richard
Hello Richard Once more thank you for the information, the photo was particularly interesting it makes the research that bit more personal. I'll try the Birmingham newspapers just in case they published a photo of him later when he got his DCM.Thanks again. Alex
Hi Alex,
You may already have done this, but just in case. Are you aware that the 2nd Bn's war diary is available for purchase online at:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...ar-diaries.asp
Piece number WO 95/2561
Hello Al thank you for that it's one I can try next alex
Hi AT
I have just spoken to my father Graham Knight who was the original source of the photograph. He has no additional information to what you have so far.
May I ask what brings your particular interest to one of the "Birmingham" Fusiliers are you a local of Birmingham? The Central Library is a superb resource for finding any further information on this chap.
I will check the war diaries for you when I have a moment.
Regards
Hello pete thank you for contacting me I would very much appreciate any other information you may be able to unearth to help in this particular mission. AS I don't live in the UK anymore this is the way I have to do this; via the internet. And finally: my interest in Sgt E.C.Troman, I have the privilege to be the current custodian of his medals..once again thank you for your kind offer of help Alex
Very interesting Alex SmileQuote:
Originally Posted by A T Marshall
Is it just the gallantry awards you have custodianship of ? i.e. I'm trying to work out in my head if he forfeited just his 1914 star or the whole trio.
I am still awaiting a reply from David Langley {Duty Done}
Richard
P.S Pete - say hello to your dad for me. :2thumbsup
Hello Richard, I did actually buy the medals some years ago, they were stapled to a sheet of cardboard in a shop, the DCM MM Mons star&bar trio.I use the term custodian because the only person who is ever 'the owner' to my mind is the one whose name is on the rim. I have heard of other instances of award forfeitures and it does strike me as a rather harsh punishment, even more so with the early awards of the DCM as these apparently carried a pension of sorts. That fact made me more interested in finding out the background to the circumstances. I did find out that the 2nd RWF went to Ireland from 1919 until 1922 perhaps this is where Sgt Troman's career went pear shaped Best wishes Alex
This is so interesting, keep digging lads, you're doing fabulous work. I'm dying to know the final outcome of it all.
Take care
Anita x
Another little piece of info.
CSM Troman appears on a nominal roll for B Company 6th Bn(Royal Welch) Parachute Regiment in 1945-47.
Prior to that he is mentioned(spelt Tromans) in "Red Dragon" as a Sgt with the same battalion, involved in an action during early 1944. Obviously not our man, but I would'nt be surprised if its his son, the name is so unusual, either that or a massive coincidence.
David Langley has nothing else on him either Frown
Interesting discovery by Al though :2thumbsup Any mention of a further service number ????
Richard
Unfortunately notFrown
Hello, Sgt. Troman had a son Ernest A. Troman, born in the third quarter of 1926. Any information on him out there ?? Militarily or otherwise!! Regards, Alex
I think you will have to apply online for his Birth Cert. Which will cost £7. I have found this:
Name: Ernest Allen Troman
Birth: 30 Jun 1926
Death: Dec 1997 - Birmingham, Warwickshire
My father was born in 1926 and served in the latter stages of the war, so its likely that Ernest also did. Someway further along in your research, you may be able to apply to the MOD for his service record, unless he was exempt, he would have at least completed some sort of National Service.
Many Thanks for that Al, Iwas up till 1.30 this morning on that one I'd only got to 1989 when I gave up. I'll PM you .. Regards Alex
Hello All, I've got to 'ask the audience' on this one!. On the 31/1/1919 the RWF held, or were part of a parade, I am reliably informed that Sgt. Troman was on colour escort on the day. There are a number of possibilities, it was a parade to celebrate the end of/victory in, the First World War, or a Regimental occasion, It would help a lot in filling in a part of Sgt.Troman's story, if it could be established where it took place. As far as I can establish he was still part of the 2nd Bn., but this may have been a Regimental 'do' . And if the sun really shines on this bit there may even be photos of it!!! As a thought, at this time the Regular Bns. of the RWF were probably part of the occupation forces in Germany. Regards, Alex
Alex,
Bad news.
I made it to Kew this weekend, for a brief hour. I looked in the book of District Court Martials, concentrating on 1920......nothing.
I then checked the General Court Martial book(more serious), again nothing.
Im sure its there, it just may take a little finding. I suggest that you approach Richard Ward. He has a guy who lives in london and does research at very reasonable rates. Unfortunately my time was short, but it is worth following up. Where did you get the original discharge date and year from? as maybe this is not correct.
It is also worth the researcher checking the burnt records for Tromans service record. Its such an unusual name it won't take long. I found my great grandfathers war record in about 5 mins........not so easy if its jones, williams etc.
Incidently I spotted an VC winner who was DCM'd and received 5 days jail!!!!!!
Hello Al, firstly thank you very much for taking the time to do a search for me. I got the information on Troman from his MIC card he was D.with I'd on the 2/10/1920. so there must have been a CM for that to happen !!. As you said the info will be in there somewhere,it's just finding it !!. A thought; the senior's mess must have been a helluva place what with all those 'doubles' men in it.. I'll get in touch with RW and try his man.. Once again thanks,,, Regards Alex
Hello Al, Just a quick question, were the CM's for the Irish Garrison done at the Curragh the 2nd Bn. were in Limerick at the time as part of 18 Inf. Bde. along with the 1st Ox & Bucks LI.. Thinking about it though Limerick probably had an HQ as well to do these kind of things... Regards Alex
The book contained all Court Martials at home and abroad. The entries are hand written in date order.
Hello All, Sorry for the gap, just a thought! Is it possible to be discharged with ignomy without being court martialled? What does King's Regs. 392 X111 cover? Regards Alex
The Disc you have Richard with Birmingham men on I have just done detailed research on the families of the men and added more photos for a book I am putting together ...I have corresponded with quite a few of the family members and got more material
Hello,
Re the possible existence of a son of Sjt Troman who may have served in the 6th Para Batt RWF. I will be phoning my old R.S.M. (Cliff Meredith)from the 2nd RWF from our time in Malaya, He served with the 6th Batt Para's RWF in Palestine. I can try and see if he remembers Troman Junior. I will come back on this one if I can glean any news.
Regards RBD aka jungle 1810
Hello,
I have just come off the phone to Cliff Meredith. He distinctly remembers a triumvirate of Sjts in Palestine they caused a fair bit of mayhem between them.Cliff remembers a Sjt TRUMAN and he was from "Brum" and he was in the anti tank platoon and his subaltern was Lt Farrar Hockley who later became a general. One of the other Sjts was a man named Ellison and one other whose name Cliff has forgotten (Cliff is now aged 88) rose to the rank of Colonel. Truman done all his service in the Paras. I did think as an an amateur it could be an outside chance maybe the medals had been damaged on the rim and the name Troman became TRUMAN a long shot.I sincerely hope this e mail does not muddy the waters but I reckon it was worth a try. My thanks of course go out to the many experts who have contributed to this thread and I fully respect their input as always. As an after thought I was also unable to e mail Caernarvon or even obtain 3 order forms for the two volumes of the RWF history I wanted to distribute to interested sources. Nil carborundum illegitimii as the saying goes.
Regards RBD aka jungle1810
If A.T. Marshall is still around please send me a P.M. as he has not replied to a E.Mail I sent him about Troman