saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Dave, Ivor, Jim, John. Thanks for your last few posts which are fascinating. I'm sorry that, although 'proprietor' of this thread I am absolutely out of my depth and eternally grateful for the effort you all continue to give to this topic. Although out of my depth and forever trailing in last place as far as knowledge is concerned, my interest has deepened as time has went on. What began as an inquisitive ''I wonder what happened to my uncle'', has widened into a search for a lost soul.

Whilst I think that the possibility of Anthony dying in hospital in Calonne is a sound one, I still find it hard to get away from the idea that if the Germans were as good as their word and took Anthony to hospital, it would have been likely that they would have taken him to a one in Saint Venant which may have been nearer.

RSM Goddard did, after all, say that he found Anthony on the canal bank 'near the village' and stated this to the Red Cross, also stating that he was taken prisoner in Saint Venant on the 27th May 1940. Without searching for a map of the area, I am unsure of the difference in distance between a Saint Venant hospital and one in Calonne.

In a way, it would be better if he did die in Calonne. It would give us new ground to cover and that important clue could be 'just around the corner'. It is doubtful that the bodies in Calonne would have been re-interred which is a pity because Anthony's belongings may have been put to one side like they did with the victims in Saint Venant. You never know, somewhere, there might be a haversack with a letter addressed to Anthony which would identify him. It's this sort of thing that keeps giving me hope.

Regards,

Tony

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, re bodies after two years in the ground: it all depends on the soil. In the wet Lys area, I wouldn't expect to find much soft tissue left after two years. Wounds would only be obvious if there was bone damage.

Tony, Calonne may be a good option after all. The St-Venant hospital was in what one might call a debatable area, a bit 3 Pz Div, a bit SS Germania Regt. Calonne would have been in undisputed possession of 3 Pz, and moreover had a German military dressing station instead of [as well as] a French civvy hospital. I would think that a prisoner for safety reasons would preferably be taken to a military dressing station, unless he was really in a bad way and unlikely to escape, and the French hospital was closer.

As far as I know the British casualties in the St-Venant hospital [which doubled as an orphanage] were brought in by their mates or admitted themselves.

John

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John, thanks for the expanation about communes etc.

Tony, afraid i cant help as much as Jim, John and Ivor all i can do is chuck ideas and suggestions in But i really hope you can find out more info on your uncles death mate.

Cheers

Dave

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Mornin All.
Tony.Thank you for your post , but it is Jim and John who are the Info/contacts men. Like Dave i can only chuck ideas around. But sometimes you have to look at things from a different angle. Take the French Files.we seem to have assumed that the official 41/42 clearance was complete. But if you ask the question,was it ? then it opens up the ''well maybe it wasn't ''possibility with any later clearances not official.
It is similar with Calonne. We have been there and discussed the possibility of Anthony being buried there. But it wasn't till it was mentioned that the Local Council was responsible for the clearances that the idea '' OH, is Calonne under the same council as St Vennant? '' with the answer Drat no. so another door opens.
We have had the info all along but it only takes a word of phrase to open a link to something else.

John, thanks for the info re bodies i thought so but wasn't sure. So really the only hard evidence you would expect would be as you said bone damage or metallic evidence such as 'dog tags', regimental insignia etc. this, i assume, would have been the object of the British 1946 exercise. So if 'dog tags' had been removed for whatever reason or were not there in the first place. Then Id would be almost impossible unless they carried something personal with their name on.

Tony. while i believe that Calonne is the most likely resting place of Anthony, unless you could get authority to DNA test all the unknowns in Calonne i think the best we can hope for is a '' Buried Near This Spot'' marker.But that would be a great result.

ivor

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Yes the DNA route may be the only way to be certain one way or another if indeed Anthony is buried at Calonne and i dont believe this is going to happen if for no other reason than the cost though there is a precedent in the WW1 mass grave being tested last year.

The only thing that would concern me is that according to the CSM Anthony was not badly hurt when he last saw him on the canal bank this suggests that either he was wounded again afterwards or alternativly the unthinkable that he was one of the murdered. Given the reputation of the Totenkoph division including there later actions there is always that chance.

Cheers now

Dave

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdl12976

Given the reputation of the Totenkoph division including there later actions there is always that chance.

SS Germania was active in St Venant itself and along the road to Haverskerque. The 2 DLI HQ area belonged exclusively to 3 Pz Div. So the chances that Anthony was murdered on the spot seem to be negligible. But if he was moved to a dressing station west of the 3 Pz Div area, it would be a distinct possibility.

John

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi Dave.
I too doubt that permission would be obtained, even if privately funded, for the DNA tests.
Your second point. we did discuss this some time ago with regard to the RSM being wrong, but he was an experienced soldier and i doubt it. The only concern i had was the neck wound being more severe than thought. When RSM Goddard ask if they could take Anthony with them he was told there was a Field Ambulance operating nearby and they would deal with it.a short time later Goddard spoke to some stretcher bearers presumably telling them where Anthony was, so as a non walking wounded i have very little doubt that he would have been picked up and taken to, as i believe, Calonne.
I read,somewhere, that the German's did not tend to use Local Hospitals, preferring to set up their own facilities in Schools or other large buildings possibly because they were better equipped or maybe even to avoid disruption to the local system.
With regard to the mystery of Anthony's death. Well murder is not out of the question I know of at least one particular nasty piece of SS garbage named, i think it was DIX, who was known to have committed a large number of murders in the area around this time. Sadly he was never to stand trial as he unfortunately got himself killed some time later. So i think this has to have a great deal of consideration. I guess the only way we can know for certain is if autopsies done in 41/42 show bullet wounds to the head.
These files must be somewhere ?.

ivor

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Here is the SS VT Divisions movements for those interestd.

 SS Verfügungsdivision May 1940

The Battle of Aire (9º part).
German Flank Guard Actions During the 1940 French Campaign.
by B. H. Friesen.

Prisoner interrogations strongly indicated that another French armor force was moving west from Bethune. Reconnaissance patrols confirmed this. Hausser believed that this was the time to commit the entire Regiment “Germania.” He directed the regiment to deploy north and south of Auchy and prepare to conduct a movement to contact to the east (see Map 5).

The regiment began moving at 1400 hours and met the enemy tanks at the heights of St. Hilaire. This was the last of the French armor and the force was too small to overpower a motorized regiment supported by the division’s antitank battalion. The tanks quickly lost their momentum and began to withdraw. The Regiment “Germania” pursued them, pushing the enemy back along the entire front in a great sweeping action. The antitank units destroyed many French tanks. The regiment pushed all enemy forces it did not capture or destroy back to the canal by nightfall.

The enemy tried to force penetrations into the division and corps flank in three separate areas. The SS V Division halted and repulsed him on each occasion. The Germans destroyed over 60 armored vehicles and captured close to 4,000 enemy soldiers.

Source: Armor Magazine. Jan – Feb 1994.

On 24 May, regiments of the division succeeded in crossing the La Bassee Canal. The regiment on the right flank captures St. Venant while the reconnaissance detachment advances towards Allouagne. New reconnaissance is sent forward. Two reconnaissance parties had to advance in the direction of Estaires: one through Bethune. The other through St. Venant. While attempting to cross the bridge to the north of Bethune, the first party is subjected to enemy fire. One armored vehicle falls into a ditch, and motorcyclists are forced to dismount and engage the enemy.

The second reconnaissance party, after Passing St. Venant at 2:00 PM in the direction of Merville, was already nearing the latter, when suddenly enemy tanks had cut off its retreat. Only one of the two armored vehicles succeeded in breaking through to the rear. At 5:30 PM this reconnaissance party reports that it is encircled by the enemy. The 2d Company, reinforced by antitank guns, is sent to its rescue.

At the same time the British, moving through Merville in the southwestern direction, executes tank attack against the German infantry. After a somewhat critical situation, the British attack was repulsed. Also the 2d Company, moving north of the Lys Canal, runs against British tanks. Due to the fact that the elements of the divisions retired at nightfall back across the canal, the 2d Company was also compelled to retreat. The encircled reconnaissance party reported by radio that during the night it will attempt to break through.

The next morning the reconnaissance detachment was moved to Ham. A report was received from the encircled party. to the effect that it was unable to break through, but up to 9:30 AM it nevertheless continued to communicate by radio on all enemy movements in the vicinity of Merville. Then the contact ceased. This party was captured by the British.

Source: Motorized Reconnaissance Detachment in Combat in Flanders. By Wim Brandt (SS AA VT CO). Militar Wochenblatt.

Re: Verfügungsdivision May 1940

On May 27, the SS-VT started its attack with the SS Germania to the right and the SS Der Fuhrer to the left; the SS AA pressed forward between the Der Fuhrer's I. and III. Battalions. The densely wooded terrain enabled the British to fight effectively against this attack; also helped by the well-constructed field fortifications.

On the attack's right wing, sharpshooters from the Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment wreaked havoc upon the SS Germania; nevertheless the SS unit made subtantial progress and by the end of the day had advanced as far as the town of Haverskesque. Meanwhile the SS Der Fuhrer had pushed the enemy back through the Bois D'Amont reaching the Canal de Nieppe.

On May 28, due to the Nieppe Forest was now situated in a salient vulnerable to isolation and encirclement, the BEF evacuated all its force from the area.

While these SS units saw action in the Nieppe Forest, the SS Deutschland marched on Merville and on May 27, confronted a fresh line of British forces arrayed along the Lys Canal. After softening the enemy positions with artillery fire the III. Battalion launched its assault driving the British out of this area. Later in the day the two others battalions were on the other side of the waterway establishing bridgeheads for other german forces.

Source: SS Das Reich. The history of the of the Second SS Division 1939 -1945. Gregory L. Matson. Chapter 4 The West.

I do have the movements of the SS TK for the dates as well if anyone is interested, most of which is the same as the diary earlier spoken about on here.

1 Attachment(s)

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

For those interested: here is the statement made post-war by the commander of SS Germania, Karl Demelhuber.

Thanks for the quotes, Dave. Some caution is advisable, though. The second quote, for example, twice mentions British/enemy tanks - there were none, only bren carriers, and they were not the reason for the German retreat to the Aire Canal. There had been French tank detachments along the Aire Canal to protect the bridges leading to St-Venant, but these had all gone by then.

John

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Appreciate that John, a bit like the media today i reckon anything on tracks is called a tank no matter how big or small mainly because the writer knows nothing about armoured vehicles and does even less research before writing.

Cheers

Dave