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Thanks John,
I have drawn a blank with my searches for a birth certificate for Alfred using Davis or Davies, so have instructed a search for a birth certificate for Hugh Alexander Davies - Alfred's son. Here's hoping Alfred's name is on the certificate!
I thought you'd like to see the following photo, I take absolutely no credit for it, Norman unearthed it from somewhere.
Brenda
Attachment 2564
What a splendid photo, Brenda. I'd never seen it before. Thanks very much.
Please keep us informed of whatever [else] you manage to dig up.
Good hunting!
John
Hi
I found this photo on this web-site. I did ask if anyone had the names to go with it, but got no reply. My colleagues and I think the chap in the middle looks very much like Alfred when you compare photo's. But he is not in uniform! How would we find the names of 'G' company?
Norman
I'm afraid the names of the men in G Coy are lost forever, Norman. And even if we could find them, it would be impossible to say who the men of the tug of war team were, out of a hundred names.
Anyway, I think Alfred was in F Coy guarding the Legation.
John
Hi John
Thanks for your help and responses on Alfred. Having had a look at the tug-of-war team and the wedding photo, I would agree with Norman that they are the same individual. If that is correct, then it would seem Alfred was in Peking in 1902 in G company. Do the records you have show an F and G company in Peking in 1902? Both guarding the legation? But do any of these records exist - or were they lost in WW2? ie is there anything at Kew that might show an Alfred Davies in G company?
I have also looked at National Archives under China Records to see if there are diplomatic records available for the period. Even as a civilian, I would think that Elizabeth Rollo would have registered with the Legation when she arrived in Peking. The marriage itself was at the Legation and the marriage certifcate survives from those records. However I can't imagine the Foriegn Office kept records of the army personnel. How nad why she went to Peking is a mystery to be solved!
Thanks
Bob
I re-checked my sources, Bob, and found that B, D, F and G Coys returned to China for guard duties on 14/01/1901. B and D Coys were sent to Tientsin, F and G Coys to Peking as Legation Guard. So you may well be right to identify the man in the photo as Alfred Davies.
There are no records I know of that show the names of the men in each company. It is not impossible that there is some sort of muster roll in the Museum somewhere, but as the archives are largely undocumented it will be a matter of coming across it by chance rather than anything else. I understand from Brian Owen that you have already been in touch. The researchers wlll keep their eyes open, but it will be a matter of incredible luck if anything useful turns up. Muster rolls are not the sort of thing I's expect to find at Kew. but one never knows. It wouldn't hurt to ask the staff if there is a chance to find anything useful.
John
Hello Bacon Wallah,
Re the Pekin thread.Some one may strike lucky with photos of the RWF in Pekin by looking at my web site it contains quite a few photos of the Legation and surrounding areas. the site can be found on the following link Bridgend rwf if you do a search on google, my name should appear then click on it and all should be revealed.
Regards Brian
Thanks for that, Don!
John
My main issue with the tug of war picture is that the guy appears to be wearing civilian clothes?
Looking at Dons website, there is a great picture of the 2nd Bn's Sgts Mess taken in India in 1902. I had a look thru but couldn't identify Alfred. The picture is fully zoomable:
http://mdonovan.free.fr/rwf/india_ex...Mahal2Batt.jpg
Hi AP1
Great Picture. Is there a list of names? Alfred was in Pekin on 7th Oct 1902, as this is when he married.Two sergeants were his wittnesses. Cr Sgt H. Yates & Cr Sgt F. Jones both 2/RWF. I think image of the cert was posted on this thread.
Regards Norman
That is correct Norman. However according to RWF Regimental Records. On the 29th Oct the Battalion left Pekin aboard the transport ship Salamis arriving at Hong Kong on the 3rd Nov. Then on the 7th Nov they set sail for Calcutta, arriving on the 24th Nov 1902.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman
On the 7th Dec in India, medals for South Africa and China were presented to the NCO's and men of the 2nd Battalion. I suspect this may have been when the picture of the Sgts mess members was taken(a lot of the guys are sporting medal ribbons). I would point out that according to regimental records some NCO's may have been missing, as a 100 man strong detachment had been deployed to the Delhi, for duty at the Durbar some 5 days earlier on the 2 Dec. Hope this helps.
What a spectacular photo!
Like you AP1, I failed to spot Alfred in the line-up.
Is there any way to find out a list of those who had already been deployed to Dehli when the photo was taken?
I have acquired, from an elderly relative, a copy of Clarence George's birth certificate ( he was Alfred and Elizabeth's eldest son). He was born in Darjeeling in Jan 1904, by which time Alfred was a Sergeant Instructor with the Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles - so no service number, I'm afraid. However it does confirm that his service with RWF ended sometime between Oct 02 - Jan 04. I would think it highly likely that he went to India with the 2nd Btn, wouldn't you?
Best regards.
I have no doubt, Brenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda Kinghorn
Summing up, discharge in c.1903 would indicate enlistment in 1895 (seven years with the Colours, one year added for foreign service, "for the King" as the saying went) and a number around 4500. Staying in India and taking a job with the railways was not unusual, as described by Frank Richards in Old Soldier Sahib.
John
Hi, Happy New Year to All
Is it possible Alfred was in the first world war? On Clarence wedding cert 1924, Alfred is listed as a Sergeant Major RWF. Then on Ians wedding cert 1932, he is listed as a Sergeant Major retired.
Norman
Norman,
He's listed as Sergeant Major on Elizabeth Rollo's death cert as well in 1965ish (I think - from memory).
That might explain Hugh's birth - it would have given Alfred a reason for being back in the UK in 1917/1918.
Brenda
Hard to say, Norman. The Alfred Davies query in the Medal Index Cards provides 16 x Alfred, Alfred E, Alfred G, 3 x Alfred H, Alfred J, Alfred S, Alfred V. With one or two exceptions, all ended the war as Privates. The exceptions were (Acting) Corporals. I also found 3x A Davies, all transferred in from, or out to, other Regts. Not eligible, I think.
Number-wise about half were Territorials, which is incompatible with coming from India to fight in the war. If that is what he did, as you surmise, there are two possibilities. He either had his old number or he didn't. As the lowest non-TA number is a post-Aug 1914 number, he must have re-enlisted and received a new number if the return theory is correct. From there on it's anybody's guess (again).
John
Thanks
For the info John. Have a great New Year.
Norman.
Just unearthed these photos this morning (hopefully they've attached).
Have requested another search for a birth cert for Alfred's son Hugh.
Many thanks to John and AP1 for all your help and advice so far.
Happy new year to you all!
Brenda
I was hoping to catch up on quite a few threads this evening after my spell of being AWOL - however, I have spent ages reading through this one!
I have a few ideas, and I am pretty sure that Cr Sgt F Jones on the marriage cert is 4943 Frank Jones. I need to dig out some papers to see if I can help id "our" Alfred Davies.
One key for me please, is trying to get a clearer image of the medal he is sporting in the first picture. Where there is a medal there is a roll :)
Thanks for taking the time to read this thread Richard.
Norman has scanned the original photo high res, so the attachment below is the best we can do I'm afraid.
It would appear that Col Sergt Inst H Jones, who is standing on Alfred's left, is sporting the same medal.
I wonder if he served in China with Alfred?
Looking forward to any comments.
Best regards
Brenda
I've cropped it a bit more - see if that helps!
Brenda
Brenda, there is a 4542 Pte H. Jones on the China Medal Roll. Does not say much, though. Although the number would be about right, we do not know if the Colour Sgt Jones of the Assam Railway was a Royal Welch Fusilier. He may have served with a different regiment.
John
Thanks Brenda.
This is what I am seeing :
The chap on Alfred's right is sporting the Queens South Africa medal & Kings South Africa Medal.
Alfred appears to be wearing a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal
The chap on Alfred's left, Queens South Africa medal & Kings South Africa Medal & a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.
Alfred is certainly not wearing a China 1900 as the suspension is not the right shape. So I guess anyone who appears on the QSA, KSA or China roll is out of the running.
I have checked the info I have for the LSGC medals, and there is one A Davies, awarded in 1921.... As the qualifying period was 18 years this man would have enlisted in about 1902/3. His number at time of award was 4178875. Further digging reveals his earlier number was 7162 - but he was originally a 4/RWF man and his Christian name was ...... Abraham
So another one off the possibilities....
Will continue to dig.
I am a little puzzled by the Photograph, did S/NCOs of RWF dress in “Sam Brown Belts” in the photo front row three Officers, back row from the left, C/Sgt, Drum Major. C/Sgt, C/Sgt. I’m not an authority of Regimental dress of this period. Is this a fun photo, Officer handing over belts for photo take.
Glyn
Good question, Glyn. I had noticed the splendid appearance of the WOs and the very casual dress of the officers, but did not really think about it. Alas, like you I'm no expert on the subject.
John
This wasn't the RWF. It was the Assam Railway Volunteers or something wasn't it?
That's correct, Al. The Assam & Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles.
1901 formed as Assam-Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles on 23rd January, HQ at Chittagong
1917 1st April, became the 42nd Assam Bengal Railway Battalion
1920 1st October, re designated Assam Bengal Railway Battalion
John
That's spot on John. I found some report from a paper where Lt Col R S Hawkins VD recieved an award from the King, but I can't find it just now. As for the others in the photo, I've had no info on them. I must start looking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconwallah
Norman
Here's the Assam Bengal Railway Battalion badge.
Attachment 2600
John
Do we know where Alfred was born?
Hi Richard
Very sorry, but no, we have no firm place of birth. We only know his Dads name from his marraige cert. Doing any search for Alfred we are just guessing. He's a real man of mystery.
regards Norman
According to Alfred's marriage certificate in October 1902, he was 26 years 4 months, which would make his date of birth June 1876ish. We know he was with 2nd Btn RWF at that time.
The 2nd Btn left China for India late 1902. I had presumed he was discharged in 1903ish because by the time of his first son's birth in Darjeeling January 1904, Alfred's occupation was listed as Sergeant Instructor with Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles. (Well the certificate appears to say NBMR, but I took that to be an error in the transcription - it's certainly not RWF) I've attached the certificate so you can have a look.
The photo of him as Sergeant Major sporting a LSGC medal was taken in 1910.
If he enlisted at 16, his total length of service would amount to 18 years in 1910 if his time with both the RWF and ABVR are taken into account. Is it calculated on total length of service, regardless of with whom? Or is it a possibiliity that he was seconded to the ABVR from RWF?
The certificate says N.B.M.R. and it's no transcription error. It stands for Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles (HQ at Darjeeling). Apparently Alfred believed in variety.
Enlistment at 16, in 1892, would have meant a number somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3750.
Secondment from RWF to NBMR or ABRyVR/ABRyB would have been theoretically possible, I presume, but highly unlikely.
Still a mystery.
John
Aaah, the plot thickens!
I thought he went straight from RWF to ABRVR, but apparently not.
Thanks for that piece of info - another avenue to try.
Brenda
And the NBMR badge:
Attachment 2602
John
From the London Gazette 1920
The KING has approved the relinquishmentof their temporary commissions by the undermentioned',and the grant of rank as shownbelow: —
INDIAN DEFENCE FORCE.Lt.-Col. R. S. Hawkins, V.D., and is grantedthe rank of Lt.-Col. 19th May 1920.
Could this explain the casual dress in the staff photo?
I don't quite see how, Norman.
John
Hi All.
I know it's been a while, but we are still digging. I've wandered off along the way, tracing my Mothers family. Will get back on track soon.
Norman
Hi All
These may be of interest to anyone following this thread :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14x-SHOOTI...t_11409wt_1166
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-ANTIQUE...ht_4647wt_1166
Many thanks!
I'm on the case :-)