May well be mate, I shall investigate when I have time
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May well be mate, I shall investigate when I have time
To the West of St Venant there were members of the SS-Verfügungs-Division which in 1940 consisted of elements of Deutschland, Germania and Der Führer. Germania was withdrawn in late 1940 to form the nucleus of The Germania Division.
Extensive investigations into which actual units were at St Venant. Germanias III Regt was found to have been in the area of the atrocities on two seperate occasions and invetigations then centred upon tracing men of this unit. A German clerk in the SS Germania Unit SS Sturmbanfurher Erich Heinrich claimed that had such atrocities in the area occured and been known then at Divisional,Regimental and Battalion there would have been a death sentence passed upon the men respnsible. However there is a note that the commander DEMELHUBER`s character is well known and bearing this in mind this PoWs statement bears no weight.
A second SS prisoner Stumbanfurher Robert Kraft is described as a`stupid type`who was a Private soldier in 6th Coy in 1940 and who claims to remember none of his units movements for the period.
From Germania III efforts were made to trace
Medical Officer Dr Strotz
Admin Officer Schmidt (Killed)
Hauptsturmfurhrer Willy Franz MT Officer
Sturmfurhrer Kling
Plus a further 12 SS men of lower ranks .Presumably to question in relation to events/actions rather than as direct information into their actual involvement in any crime?
Each step of the investigation has summaries and conclusions attached at each step one significant finding was something Ivor touched upon regarding Insignia it was found that Germania did not wear the same uniform throughout the Regt but wore a mixture of Camo Smocks and field grey service uniforms this may have been down to supply but it was noted that members of the Regiment whilst retaining their SS lightening flashes and swasticas on their helmets removed sleeve eagles ,rank and cuff title insignia in an effort to conceal their SS identity and in particular associaton with GERMAIA.
In one of the summaries it is noted that up until this point no proof of a Regimental order has been obtained and the orders possibly came from a Battalion Commander or lower. Importance was put on the interrogation of DEMELHUBER who had been traced to a PoW facility near Hamburg.It was agreed that DEMELHUBER be asked what he knew of the perpertrators and what action (if any) was taken against them.If KARL MARIA DEMELHUBER can not confirm the identities of other supporting units at St Venant then he as sole commander would(Should) be held responsible for the actions of his men.
It was identified at this time that 16th Company (Engineers) SS Germania were forward of the main Germania battle group and fighting `independently` it was agreed that members of this Company be sought and brought for interrogation.
I hope this helps its as far as I`ve got up until now
Jim
Thanks Jim.
very interesting.
You may, have explained a puzzle as well.
If you recall the RWF.WD recalled that when they were approaching St Venant along the canal they came across some Bridging equipment which they captured. the following day a party of Engineers was seen approaching from Haverskirk.
Could it be possible that this equipment and engineers were from this 16th Co (Engineers) SS Germania.
Ivor
Good Morning All.
Found a interesting article on the actions of the 22 May to the 27th May 40. From the German perspective. you will need to scroll down to a picture of German Troops in Paris.
http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=2475
Ivor.
Jim it was nothing unusual for there to be a mix of cammo smocks and field grey uniforms within the same SS unit and there was not supposed to be any insignia on the smocks other than SNCO and officer ranks which consisted of bars and ok leaves in either green for lower ranks or yellow for generals but the general thing was for no rank to be worn, regarding he removal of insignia this was a general order to all SS units in France from Himmler and not jus to Germania.
Ivor, it does not surprise me in the slightest there was a Engineer bridging unit in the area after all it is riddled with canals and rivers so would have been standard practice to have one available in case of blown bridges on the line of attack.
Cheers
Dave
Dave.
The puzzle to me was, who the stuff belonged to. i was aware that 3Pz had bridging gear, but i did not realise that Germania would also have had similar equipment, and that they were that close. it was the bit about the engineers being an ''independent fighting unit'' that made me realise it could be theirs.
It would be interesting to know when and which way they got there. From the accounts we have there would be a quite narrow time frame for them to get there.
Interesting.
ivor.
Hi Ivor, I suspect it was this sub unit as engineers were more commonly know as pioneers in the German army
SS-VT-Pioneer Abeilung
I believe the Divisional commander would have attached them to the Infantry attacking the area because of the number of canals and rivers that may have needed crossing by raft or a pontoon bridge put in place by the Pioneers for the infantry to replace any potentually blown bridge.Therefore tey would haven right in the thick of the fighting though probably not involved in the man assaults unless needed.
By the way Karl Maria Demelhuber was held in Bridgend POW camp in 1945 in special camp XI Island Farm from which on 10th-11the March 1945 seventy German prisoners tunnelled to freedom www.islandfarm.fsnet.co.uk
Worth a look cause the "guest" list reads like a whos who of the German high command
I was aware of Himmler`s orders to remove insignia which were made in 1941 and applied I believe to the Totenkopfverband here their unique Deaths Head was replaced by the SS runes. Several units removed insignia in Russia for obvious reasons.A General order was made in April 1945 after several cases of SS personnel being shot out of hand after SS Divisional troops were mistaken for concentration camp guards but I had not heard of such an order in 1940?
The smocks worn in May 1940 were M38 and M40 pattern which fitted over the uniform rather than replaced it the only insignia was an arm eagle I believe but unofficially soldiers added cuff titles etc which the authorities ordered removed. The insignia in the War Crimes File refers to all SS identifying insignia but it was noted not all Waffen SS men did this and no orders divisionally had been issued.In 1940 the SS were not yet known to have been involved in widespread atrocities .
Demelhuber was found in a PoW camp near Hamburg and brought to Britain for interrogation in relation to St Venant. Polish authorities asked for him to be handed over to them where he was wanted for atrocities in 1939 the application was ,for unknown reasons, refused and Demelhuber was released by the British in 1948. DEMELHUBERS testimony/report is not in this file the last date I can find up until now is 1946.
Some documents refer to other cases and this once again appears to incomplete with several important statements missing and no continuity of evidence which Ivor will agree is needed for a successful case.
Best
Jim
So more missing documents then Jim possibly because they refer to other cases which may or may not be closed, I just wonder if these are more still held in MI9 files.
The order in 1940 was not to remove all insignia as such but rather to remove the runic collar patches which at that time had a 1, 2 , or 3 numeral on them an to replace them with the simple rune patch. Apparently it was not very clear and as often happens was read differently by different people so some removed the patches and all other insignia as well whilst others simply ignored it and of course others did exactly as the order stated thus leaving a mishmash within any unit.
Cheers
Dave
Hi all.
I have spent several hours today reviewing stuff in the light of Jim's independent fighting Engineer Co. and my last link to the German account.
I have gone back to the RWF.WD, to see if there is anything that may have been missed. I am working on the assumption that it is 1 day out.
We know that the 1St Bn was approaching St Flores on the evening of 23rd when they came under fire. I am still of the opinion that this may have been F.F.
The W.D. states that Enemy Troops were reported BETWEEN St Floris and St Venant. note Between.
The following day (24th) the advance continues and Bridging Equipment is captured,again,Between St Floris and St Venant. the Eng Co troops from the previous night ? This is a much more restricted area than i first realised. also enemy forces are seen approaching from Haverskirque, from the North. Eng's again? On the 26th when the advance continues they come under fire from a point on the North side of the Canal.
This would seem to indicate that the German's were either IN or Around Haverskirque or between Haverskirque and St Venant from 23rd.
On the same day the HQ Party came under heavy Mortar fire when trying to cross the Bridge.
Now i do not know the range of Mortars maybe 1,000+ yds. so the German's had to be that close to the bridge.
For some reason i had assumed that the patrol that passed through St Venant had come from the South, i think this is wrong. I now think it came from the North. Could it have been acting as cover for the bridging stuff till it got over the St Venant bridge. Or was this patrol part of the Eng Co.
This bring me back to the question of the Defensive line Being St Floris. which is where 2/5 WY were holding ,If it was accepted that St Venant was in enemy hands from 23rd then why was the actions of 1 RWF etc not notified to ''arty'' or why wern't their orders changed. Or were they expected to fall back to St Floris.
O.K. we will never know, but ....
ivor
No statement from DEMELHUBER but there is a note stating he had been questioned and named the only SS unit operating inside St Venant itself together with its Commander at the time.
Jim
I assume `only` unit refers to SS not units in General? Alt spelling Werner Dörffler-Schuband but interrogation records held by Americans on.......FOLD3Quote:
To; Lt Ritchie
J.A.G.S Office
From; W.C.I.U/ L.D.C
__________________________________________________ __
J.A.G REF;MD/JAG/FS/7/5(2F)
SUBJECT; MURDER OF BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR ST VENANT 1940
Further to the telephone conversation of this morning (Lt Ritchie-RSM Ullman ) it is confirmed herewith that information so far obtained from OBERGRUPPENFUHRER DEMELHABER and other sources;- the II BN /SS Regt GERMANIA was the only unit in action in St Venant itself., and III BN/SS Regt GERMANIA the only formation which fought in LE NOIR MAILLOT near to St Venant.
The O.C II BN GENERAL MAJOR (BRIGADEFUHRER)
WERNER DOERFLER-SCHUBAND
Is now held in custody by US authorities at;-
C.I.C No 4 -HERSBACH (GERMANY)
And it is believed it would be useful to have him made available for interrogation at an early date. DOERFLEUR-SCHUBAND was with the Bn during its fighting at St Venant.
A detailed report of the interrogation of DEMELHABER as well as his own voluntary statement
will be submitted in due course.
Meanwhile enquiries are being conducted at P.W.I.B and at USFET FRANKFURT for the whereabouts of other persons who might give useful information.
Statement below of Heinz KOEKE 1st Germania 1940
*****SCHMIDTHUBER *****executed on February 27, 1947 for War Crimes (Yugoslavia)Quote:
CONFIDENTIALReport No. WCIU/LD0/LDC 1262/( a) - UWMPB
JAG Ref MD/JAG/FE/7/5 (2F)
.VOLUNTARY STATEMENT of PRISONER of WARLD 1189 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Heinz KOEKEReport of my service in the `GERMANIA` RegtThe GERMANIA Regt was formed from the Regt SS2 of the pool of reserve troops (Verfuegungstruppe) and was named thus at the Reich Party Rally at Nuremberg in 1936. The various Bn's were garrisoned as follows :-I Bn. at HAMBURG-; 2 Bn at ANOLSEN; 3 Bn at ',WOLTERDINGEN. 3 Bn was transferred in 1937 to RADOLFSZELL am BODENSEE. The Regt Staff and the Regt units were at HAMBURG.
On 9.9.1934. I came to the 1st Bn and belonged to 3 Coy until I was wounded on 17.7.1941. In April 1937 I became Unterscharfuhrer and my appointment was that of Gruppenfuehrer (Section Commander). As Scharf\ihrer I was appointed Officer in charge of the Goy in the autumn of 1938 and
in that capacity I took part in the Polish campaign.
After its termination the Regt was transferred to the area of BERNN, Czechoslovakia and some time later about the end of Nov 1939, to the KITZINGEN area. 1 Bn was at MARKBRIET At the beginning of February 1940 the Regt was moved to Western Germany, into the area of BECKUM in WESTPHALIA and towards the end of March 1st Bn moved to WALTROP which we left on 10th May 1940 to go into action on the .Western Front.
On the way to HOLLAND we passed BREDA. We had no contact with the enemy in Holland. Our first battle was at .ACHTERBRODE, Belgium, in mid-May, against rearguards of the French army. When the fighting - -which lasted only a short, time - was finished, we continued on the way to France. After several days' journey during which we had no contact with the enemy, we passed ARRAS and reached LILLERS later on. There we took up positions on the Northern exit of the town. On the same day, in the afternoon, it must have been near the end of May, our Coy was advanced to the LA BASSEE CANAL. We then moved along the CANAL in a south easterly direction, crossed the canal by means of an emergency bridge, reached ROBECQ as Coy in reserve.
In that area I saw two shot-up English or French tanks. ROBECQ must have boon taken by 2 Bn because a comrade Of mine, Rottenfuehrer WETEKOMP, was killed in action there. In ROBECQ I noticed 8 to 10 English soldiers who were prisoners, some of them were wounded and were being bandaged by our medical orderlies. In ROBECQ we remained until about 11 o'clock at night and were later withdrawn again via the same route. Lighters in the canal were on fire. In the e LAMIQUALLERIE area,, not far from BUSNES, we took up positions and on the next day again about noon, we reached the LA BASSEE canal again, where the LILLERS-ST. VENANT road crosses the canal.
There our Coy received orders to attack in the direction of ST.VENANT in order to form a bridgehead across the canal. An emergency bridge had been thrown across the canal at this point as a result Of which our Engineers Coy had lost two vehicles because the drivers, ignorant of the position, had driven across the bridge in order to turn round in ST. VENANT. The two trucks stood, shot-up, on the road up from the canal to the town. At that time I knew only that the unit on the left , I cannot remember which - had already made contact with the enemy on the other side of the canal, I do not know which troops were deployed on our right either We were not told because the orders were given hurriedly and perfunctorily. At that time the OC Regt was Standartenfuehror DEMELHUBER, Battalion commander was Sturmbannfuehrer SCHMIDTHUBER, , my Coy commander was Hauptstummfuehrer Franz SCHREIBER and my Platoon commander was Unterstummfurher HAUS. The other two second in commands of our Platoon were Oberscharfuehrer WISCH and Unterscharfuehrer Rolf SUEL.
-.
WISCH was killed in action in Russia and SUHL is in Russian captivity in Siberia. At that time I had orders to proceed 50 metres on the right of the road leading to ST VENANT. I and my section went over the bridge first. Right and left of the road there stood some houses and I had some cover from gardens and hedges. After I had gone about 50 metres out of the covered area the ground began to rise a little and we were fired on by several Heavy MGs so that it was impossible to proceed further. The order came to dig in and I was able to reach a small trench which was also occupied by my Zugfuehrer. We lay there alone for some time as our men who were huddled together in the dip could not gain any ground on account of the concentrated fire. We knew we were face to face with British soldiers of good quality and after mortars had been brought against us, we expected a counter-attack. Heavy arms were 'brought into play on our side and the enemy's fire slackened off. We were lying right opposite the water-tower and on the railway line, which was hidden by the trucks standing there, we could pick out Heavy MG positions. The distance was some 5-600 metres. Late in the afternoon dive-bombers were sent in against ST VENANT and I presume that after the air attack most of the English and French troops evacuated ST VENANT.
We remained in position during the night and here and there left of the road battle noises were heard, The next day our platoon became the reserve platoon and we were able to clean our arms which had been dirtied by the rain in the proceeding night. About 10 or clock in the evening we were relieved by the 7th company. When we mustered on the road south of the canal our Motor Transport arrived and was shot at by artillery and turned round and drove back empty in the LILLERS direction.
We marched to BUSNES where we waited for our MT. After we had a days rest in the LILLERS area we marched to LA BASSEE canal but this time arrived at a spot 4km west of the emergency bridge. A little way from the canal we came under heavy artillery fire and as we were still marching in close order the company had 7 fatal casualties.
At midday we went on in a more or less westerly direction towards ST VENANT. The town was clear of enemy troops and we assembled on the edge. It was then I heard that our Engineer Coy had lost 27 men killed in the fighting on the canal north of ST VENANT. We then marched through ST VENANT, crossed the second canal and in the evening arrived at HAVERSKERSQUE 2 km north of ST VENANT. Here we were supposed to go into rest but on the same evening the order to move off came and we marched through the wood in a general northerly direction,
A little way on the other side of the wood a halt was called on the LILLERS-HAZEBROUCK railway line near STEENBECQUE and a search was made for quarters. At MARBERQUE we spent the night in a barn and the next morning moved off in the HAZEBROUK-CASSEL direction. We did not get as far as CASSEL.
The next day we were back as far as ST QUENTIN where we had three days rest. After that the only thing I can report on is a battle which we fought near ROSIERES with French Colonial troops. Our platoon had taken over the guarding of a part of the place and did not go into action. This day (6th or 7th June) the Comander of the second platoon Oberscharfuehrer BAHNSEN was killed and buried in the cemetery there. Then, acting on orders, I took over the command of the 2nd Platoon. Neither during the time of the French campaign nor at any time later have I ever heard of any shooting of English or French prisoners. I have made the above statement voluntarily and without compulsion.
(Sgd) Heinz KOEKE
(Sgd) M. ULLMAN, WOI
Signed in my presence: LDO 12 July 1946
Distribution Copies
JLG : 2
AG-3 1
(VW) File 3
Statement below of ROBERT KRAFT 2BN GERMANIA
Quote:
Report No;- WCIU/LDC/1259(a)-U/WMPS
JAG. Ref; MD/JAG/FS/7/5(2F)
VOLUNTARY STATEMENT BY PRISONER OF WARMy position
LD 1216 SS-OSTUF ROBERT KRAFT 2BN GERMANIA
At that time I was Rottenfuhrer and drove a vehicle (Kuebelwagen) in the 6 Coy, 2 Bn , this was . the vehicle in which the Gruppenfuhrer (Section Commander) of the heavy Machine gun and his runner, together with the apparatus„ were driven. It was my duty to drive the section during battle to the position ordered. As soon as the section dismounted, I had to drive the truck some distance away under cover, according to the circumstances, and to see that it was safe from air observation and artillery fire.
The Campaign in Northern France
We came from the ANTWERP area area and drove towards ARRAS As far as I remember no fighting took place in the course of this journey. The direction was then changed and we drove into the area of BURBURE„ LILLERS. In LILLERS we were bombed by German aircraft when entering the town. We then continued in the direction of the canal and, as far as I remember, we were pushed out to the left and went via BUSNES into action in the area of GUARBECQUE, on the canal. The fighting during the first few days was severe and we had about 16 dead . Opposing us were English units, who wanted to hold the canal. After a few days it became quiet and the English units were withdrawn. The Battalion assembled and we continued on in the direction of ST. VENANT. We had no fighting during this journey but I believe other units had moved along this road before us We then continued into the HAZEBROUCK area.
I can no longer say which road we took.
Of Prisoners of War during this period I only saw one Englishman. Who was wounded and was taken by a medical orderly to a First Aid Post situated on the road LILLERS . I do not know of any other fighting in this area. I testify by my signature that I know nothing of the shooting of Prisoners of War nor have I ever heard any talk about it.
I have made the above statement voluntary and without compulsion.
(sgd) Robert KRAFTSigned in my presence: (sgd) M.ULLMAN W.O.I.
LDC 12 July 1946.
Distribution: copies.
JAG 2
AG3 (VW) 1
File 5
Statement below of SS Hastuf- Herbert CHRISTIANSEN (Technical Column III GERMANIA)
Quote:
Report No; WCTU/LDC/1260 (a) -U/ML
JAGs Reference;- MD/JAG/FS/7/5 (2F)
CONFIDENTIALVOLUNTARY STATEMENT BY PRISONER of WAR
LD 1187 SS-Hastuf HERBERT CHRISTIANSEN
STATEMENT OF MY ACTIVITIES IN MAY1940
In my position as TF.,K II (2nd in Command Technical Mobile Company) with the Bn.Staff, I worked together with the T.F.K I on all questions connected with technical and administrative matters, I had. nothing to do with tactical matters. I was mostly with the vehicle repair column, which was under my orders. Here un-serviceable vehicles were repaired.. Therefore we drove at the tail end of the marching column and. were about 10 - 15 km behind the battalion Battle Hq during engagements.
The Bn reached LILLERS district from the South or Southeast from the neighbourhood of .ARRAS. The attack in the district of St. VENANT took place after the advance air-field at LIGNY LEZ AIRES had been captured. I got orders at the air-field to go into quarters with the repair-column and all vehicles which were not needed during the fighting at, LIGNY LEZ AIRES. The repair column moved into quarters in the school and remained there with the Coy supply columns which were parked in the immediate vicinity until the fighting had ceased in this district and the march was continued to the Northwest. The schoolhouse was not inhabited and the lady of the house returned only after a few days. Her husband the teacher, was a French soldier and she told us, had been captured by the Germans in this neighbourhood.
During the first days I drove back on the road of the advance to look for a lorry that had fallen out at ARRAS and to bring it up. Also on the other days I was often on the road to obtain missing M/T spares. Several times I was together with the fighting units.
During the first day I met 1 Coy, which had received a direct hit shortly before I arrived, during an Artillery attack; it might have been in BUSNES, I also heard there that my Battalion n Commander Hauptsturmfuehrer POLEWACS had been wounded. He had been shot in the stomach from an M.G.-burst. I visited him in the field hospital and the next day brought him a few things -which he wanted from his luggage. A company commander took over the Battalion in his stead.
I might have been fairly often at the Battalion Battle HQ, but do not remember any particulars.
During my last visit to the Battalion I found it in the last phases of an attack on a stretch of wood. After reconstructing the situation on the map, which was not at my disposal at the time, it might have been the "BOIS D'AMONT", Vehicles stopped on the road North-west from HAVERSKERQUE and picked up troops for the pursuit. Recce - troops, arrived continually, and more were still on the way. The enemy had evacuated the terrain en masse during the night, as far as I remember, and the reminder feigned a full complement in a Self Sacrificing fight..
I cannot remember having seen any Prisoners of War on that morning, but I saw some dead on the western side of the road who undoubtedly were killed in action, as they were still in possession of their weapons and some still partly in their positions. I myself did not leave the road. I spoke however, with several colleagues whose impressions of the fighting were still fresh. I was shown the position whore 10 Coy had to interrupt their attack temporarily as the Company Cmdr Obersturmfuchrer POLETIN had been killed and there were further casualties. In my opinion this place must have been several hundred metres south of the wood "BOIS D'AMONT“
The attack may have taken place the previous day as there had been some fighting in and around HAVERSKERQUE. Several shot,blown and burnt out lorries lay there. North of St Venant in the neighbourhood of the auxiliary bridge however several shot down enemy tanks and armoured vehicles stood about, which had been shot down during a counterattack to prevent the establishment of the GERMAN bridgehead. It was evident from the conversation that the fighting including the day before had been very heavy and that a tough opponent prevented a further advance. Also losses were heavy.
I could not stay for long as I received the order to get the supply column ready to march. The same day we continued the march as far as I remember towards the North West in order to drive the next day towards the southeast into the district of ST QUENTIN.
On the return journey I stopped at the Auxillary Bridge north of ST VENANT owing to the formations which did not belong to our Regiment coming towards us from the opposite direction.
At the beginning of my interrogation I was told that executions were supposed to have been carried out in this operational area. Since I belonged to the same Regiment uninterruptedly until the summer of 1943 I would have heard something about it. If nevertheless it did occur? Then I consider it out of the question that parts of GERMANIA or any of its personnel took part in it.
I declare hearby on oath that I have no knowledge of such occurrences nor have I heard anything about it in conversation.
I have made the above statement voluntarily and without compulsion.
(sgd) Herbert CHRISTIANSENSigned in my presence
(sgd) M.ULLMAN WOI
L.D.C
12 July 1946
Distribution Copies
AG3 (VW) 1
JAG 2
File 5.
Statement of ERICH ODDEY III GERMANIA
JimQuote:
CONFIDENTIALReport No WCIU/LDC/1263(a) U-HV
JAG Ref;- MD/JAG/FS/7/5 (2F)
VOLUNTARY STATEMENT BY PRISONER of WARLD 1459- OBERSCHARFUHRER -ERICH ODDEY III GERMANIA RegtDescription of my part in Operations at ST VENANT During the campaign in France May 1940I served as a rifleman in the GERMANIA regiment, 9th Coy/III Battalion as Coy runner. The mot Regt GERMANIA came to the airfield of LILLERS as reserve; the III Bn being in the rear. The troops now dismounted, and the vehicles were parked. Our Coy was made ready on the airfield, but I do not know which Coy was on our right and which was on the left. This was at dawn. We were then bombed by our own airoraft. For this reason a change of clothing was carried out, but I no longer know exactly why. It was said that we had been mistaken for the enemy from the air. We then started in the direction of the canal, and all I remember is our reaching factory buildings. I believe it was those on the sketch. We lay down to rest, with some men on guard, but I do not know how many and over what area. I iwas quartered in a building with the 0C Coy. It was my Job to signal white flashes by means of Very pistols and bandoliers to the German aircraft during the march or while resting; besides this I carried the automatic pistol of the Coy Cmdr.
On the following day we dug in over the whole width behind the canal. I believe I could recognize the cana1 by the high banks. The enemy was said to have armour on the other side. Therefore the 14 Coy covered this with its guns. Engineers laid mines and plain wire concertinas. At sunset orders were given to start and we crossed the Canal as far as I could tell from the map shown . It was an asphalt road with a ditch on either side. We were conducted through the mines by Engineer Company Troops. Then 1st Platoon of 9th Coy turned off the road into a lane on the left and took up positions there. I do not know anything about our neighbouring units on the left and right I only know that the Coy battle HQ was in a house on the left side of the road not far from the lane. There the Coy Commander was billeted, also .several runners and myself.
The next morning I bicycled to the No 1 Platoon to take to them the order to attack. I returned on foot because the firing was too intense. The Coy battle HQ was under Artillery or Mortar fire. Later the 2 Platoon was also deployed on the left side of the road and the Coy Cmdr was moving alonug the road. A Dispatch rider from the Battalion passed and told us that Obersturmfuhrer POLLETIN Commander of 10th Coy had been killed. 10th Coy were said to have been on our right; I do not know who was on our left. The attack progressed slowly because the ground on the left where the Platoons were was very marshy and there were lots of ditches running across the ground. At about noon we reached ST VENANT and it was there that I saw 1st Platoon again for the first time since delivering their orders. But there were already German soldiers in the town.
At the other end of the town we rested a while on the road in front of the bridge. I fell asleep and was woken by a loud rumbling the first Artillery fire of my life. It was well-directed Artillery fire, and we escaped from it by rushing over the bridge out of the line of fire. It was the bridge over the LA LYS on the road to HAVERSKERQUE. One could clearly see the small town. I remember the church and the cemetery because we advanced on the left of the road and dug in not far from the town. We had casualties, DECKER, and HARZIG. Before that the anti-tank guns and Infantry Mountain Guns (J.G.Ks.) shelled the town. covering detachments which were further forward. It became dark and orders were given us to withdraw immediately behind the Canal because we had advanced too far.
We then arrived at a place behind the Canal where assault guns and armoured MG. carriers had arrived. Where this place was and what its name was I cannot tell by the map because it was dark and I could not see anything. I believe that the attack started again next morning. The armour was in front and also another Battalion which was probably one of our Regiment. I know that we passed through. ST VENANT once again far enough to see the forest. We also passed by the deserted British Artillery positions. We spent the night beyond HAVERSKERQUE. It was said that the Regiment "Der Fuhrer" was combing, a wood obliquely to us. In HAVERSKERQUE I saw British Prisoners of War for the first time, about 30 men who were taken to the rear guarded by two men, but I do not know where they were taken to. I do not believe that they were shot.
The next day it began to rain and it was only in the afternoon that we proceeded along the road into the wood where we found the assault guns already in position. After a short skirmish in the wood we came through it and could see the goods trucks on the railway. The Battalion Comdr POTTOWTSCH was wounded in this wood and RUMOR took over. As far as I remember we retreated obliquely to the left, and had to wait until the Rest of "Der Fuhrer" reached us. I did not see it myself but I believe we were heavily fired upon by this Regiment by mistake of course as it was night. I have drawn the sketch from the map of HASBROUCK and have reproduced from memory the movements of 9th Coy. I no longer remember the dates.
I have made the above statement voluntarily and without compulsion.
(Sgd) Erich ODDEY
Signed in my presence
: (Sgd) M ULLMAN WOI
LDC
Distribution Copies
JAG 2
AG3(VW) 1
File 5
12 July 1946
Morning All.
Continuing with my reviewing i have gone back to another German account of the St Venant action. That of a Diary by one Horst Kallmyer.
He was with 7th Co SSVT and ''Germania'' Rgt. Incidently ''Germania'', later in 1940 was renamed ''Wiking''
What is interesting is, that he found an abandoned Diary, somewhere near the La Bassee Canal, belonging to a Lt R.C.T. Goodwin of 7th Worcestershire Rgt. not only did he keep it he actually used it. His first entry being on 9th May 40.
It makes interesting reading.The translation is terrible but it gives an idea as to what was happening from his point of view. I will link it at the end.
as far as i can understand things went as follows.
On the night of 23/4 his unit halted outside Lilliers, west of the Aire Canal, Their first action of the day appears to be a covering action by the British to allow the bridge to be blown.I am going to assume that this was the bridge that 1st RWF were tasked to defend. They were able to cross the demolished bridge with some difficulty and advance to the outskirts of St Venant where they came under fire again from the withdrawing British. I am not sure which unit this would have been as i thought this gap was caused by the French Pulling out ?.
So this would reinforce the British belief that on 24th the Germans had taken St Venant. with considerable numbers. He also says that his co boss had been able to ferry men to the North Bank of the canal and they were attacking in the direction of Merville. Due to sustained gunfire, from houses and a Church Tower,possibly 2/5 WY in St Floris, they had to withdraw back behind the canal.
He also recounts that the bridge was partially damaged by British 'arty' fire killing 6 men.
They appear to have withdrawn 2/3 km behind the bridge for the night which is where they were when the RWF attack came in.
This is the link to the Diary
http://www.worcestershireregiment.co...an_h_kallmeyer
i have also linked this map which gives a good idea of the amount of water in the area
https://maps.google.com.mt/maps?q=li...&ved=0CJcBELYD
In conclusion.
this reinforces my belief that any Bridging Equipment must have come from the North. the bridges to the South were defended.And as the German's were able to cross the canal by boat unchallenged it would seem that either the N bank was undefended or was in friendly hands.
All this raises some interesting questions. not least being, why are we told that the R.V was Haverskirque when the British Defensive line was St Floris. then the Forest.and what was the plan to extract form St Floris.
ivor
Ivor Haverskerque being the RV fits with Dads incident at the crossroads guarding the footbridge to Haverskerque
What is certain is that Dorffler-Schuband was commander of Junkerschule Bad Tolz by 1942 and died of tuberculosis 27th Sept 1959, I can find no evidence so far of him being accused of an war crimes.
So yet more "hidden papers unavailable for perusal"
Hi All.
re my last post.
I Wonder if the troops withdrawing in front of Kallmyer were actually 2/5 WY withdrawing to St Floris ?
ivor
Rather than confuse the discusion further I will add the statements I find to Post 733 that way the War Crimes Transcripts are kept together and an overall picture of the events leading up to,during and after Anthony Corkhills disappearance can be read in one (large) post whilst the discussion of what units were where can continue and hopefully some conclusions can be drawn. If thats okay with you guys of course?
Best
Jim
Good idea Jim logical to keep it all togeather
Shame he can only date to about the end of may, ivor it seems you were correct in saying the engineer company came fro North of the canal mate, well thought out
hi.
It seems that ''Germania '' had a First Aid Post somewhere on the Lilliers Rd.
ivor
One of the interrogations tells us there WAS a field hospital in the area as well mate, don't forget a German Regiment was not like ours, there were three in a division so much like a brigade in strength infantry wise however I have see somewhere that Germania was engaged in the Forest of Nieeppe at the time the supposed murders were committed ie on the 27th May so as I have aid before it is my belief the follow up troops were responsible (Feldgendarmerie maybe)
Do we believe the claims they new of no murders, well lets face it they were never going to admit It anyway.
Dave.
As you say the fighting troops had moved on. But how far behind them were these ''field Police''. I take it they were similar to the Russian ''Political Commissars''. who also were quite capable of solving a problem by murder. Even their own men.
with regard to the fighting troops not knowing of these murders. I think there is a real possibility that they didn't.
These ''police'' were working to the rear committing whatever Murder and Mayhem they chose, but i have some doubts that they would even come into contact with the ''front line'' guys. that might be a bit too hot for them, they might get shot at.
ivor.
I tend to agree Ivor, I will post an outline of the duties and format (and reputation!!!!) of the Feldgendarmerie when I get home from work, not sure where the FG units sat in the scheme of things in France (I have plenty of info from later in the war),
Cheers
Dave
Ok a brief outline, Felgendarmerie, field Police similar to our Military Police known as Chain Dogs from the duty gorget they wore (a name well deserved).
Duties were
post signs and mark routes
Control traffic at key points
Control traffic at the division command post
supervise all movements to the rear
disarm local civilians
Investigate accidents
Establish POW collection points
searching enemy dead for intelligence
Searching for and detaining enemy stragglers and wounded or hiding enemy
collecting abandoned weapons
Just a short list of there many duties folks
Many Feldgendarmes were ex Odnungspoltzei (civy police) however they had much more power than our military police and could (and did) shoot deserters on the spot if they refused to go back to the combat area.
There reputation was such that later in the war they were issued with dual papers showing them to be a normal soldier rather then a Felgendarme (in case of possible capture the were to throw there police paperwork away) a the Russians in particular were not given to treating them very well because of there reputation.
Many German Police battalion were formed in the war and gained a reputation for murder second to only the death camps.
So there you have it folks, a nastier bunch you could not come across.
Dave
Some time last year I sent away for Anthony's death certificate. The circumstances surrounding the issue of this document have had me puzzled, if not intrigued, ever since. I have wondered who would have issued it and the fact that it was ever issued at all leads me to think that Anthony was in hospital when he died. If he was lying on the canal bank when he met his end, it is unlikely that someone would come along and write out a certificate.
In hospital, rather than an aid post, there may have been officials of one sort or another, going about their daily business and attempting to create some sort of normality, regardless of what was going on outside. The opportunity to issue a death certificate may have been greater under these circumstances than in any other situation.
If it was issued by a German, at what point was it handed over to the DLI? If not issued by a German, was there a British official present at the time of Anthony's death? I would think that, even in times of war, evidence of death would be a piece of vital information, considering that from the day of death, payment to that soldier would cease. Surely the War Office would not just accept second or third hand information from anyone who told them that one of their men had been killed.
I suppose that finding out any information about the death certificate is just as difficult as the mystery of Anthony's disappearance but it certainly makes me wonder. Whilst I agree that there were more important issues than handing out death certificates at that time, the fact remains that one was in fact issued, so what were the circumstances and who handed it out?
Tony
If I'm not mistaken, the Army would issue a death certificate when the death of a soldier was reported - and that must have happened in 1941. Jim will know more about this, I think.
John
Good Morning.
Hi Tony.
I am in full agreement with you on this issue. But the problem is, as far as i see it. If we were sure as to where he was on the Canal bank it might indicate which units area of operation he was in. Germania was in St Venant and Totemkopf in Calonne, both with 'aid posts' so which unit dealt with Anthony.
If Germania then it would be reasonable to assume he would have been taken to their post, St Venant area. If Totemkopf then Calonne would be likely.
But whichever, i believe some record would have been kept of his being there. and of the DoD. maybe even the circumstances.
I would imagine that these records would have remained with the Med unit HQ. and have been handed over in 41 to those responsible for the Field Grave Clearances. As to whether the Germans issued a Death Cert, Maybe but i am sure some record Must have been kept.
As to the manner of his death.Well. Dave has given us a quite detailed account of the FP, and a very nice bunch of guy's they sound. i have absolutely No Doubt that they would remove a couple of wounded British Soldiers if they were causing some inconvenience.
Now tying up dates. It is on record that 2 soldiers died on 29/5 in Calonne. is there any record of deaths in St Venant on that date, will look that up.
Jim. in the 'War crimes files' are there any statements from 'Totemkopf' personnel.
ivor
And 3rd Panzer Div was in between, Ivor, with its own medical services.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
John
John.
You have me puzzled here.
the 3rd SS Pz Division was Totemkopf.
ivor
The SS Totenkopf Div was a 'normal' [oversized] infantry division which would be reorganised as 3 SS PzGrenadier Div Totenkopf in Nov 1942 and 3 SS PzDiv Totenkopf in Oct 1943. The 3 Pz Div I mentioned was a division belonging to the Wehrmacht, the regular army, and recruited mainly in Berlin. It advanced between St Venant and St Floris, overrunning 2 DLI and 1 RWF HQs and taking the bridge across the Lys.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
John
John, Ivor,
Thank you both for your quick replies. The penny has dropped I say, somewhat sheepishly. I can now see that although a death cert was issued, it was issued retrospectively and we have no way of knowing how long after Anthony's death it was issued. Perhaps it was only issued because I applied for it and the same applies to other families whose relatives died in circumstances that were not straightforward. Economically, it would not make sense to produce a death cert for every soldier who died, so you only get one if you ask for it.
I understand that Anthony's name was removed from the payroll on the day he is certified as having died, 29/05/40. Five years later, on the 29/05/45, Anthony's father, (my grandfather) wrote to RSM Goddard to ask if there was any news of his son. He stated that the Red Cross had given him details of the capture of RSM Goddard and Anthony lying wounded on the canal bank. It does seem that by the end of the war he had not been told by the War Dept that his son was dead in spite of the fact that he had ceased to be on the payroll.
Nothing we can do about it now, but to me, there is something not right about the date of Anthony's death.
Tony.
I don't think you need to be sheepish about anything. what we are trying to do is extremely difficult. Trying to put ourselves in the position of 1940 is almost impossible.
What you say about the issue of the Death Cert may well be true But They Must Have the Record of the Evidence. If he died a PoW, then the record would be German. or would the word of a repatriated Soldier be sufficient. i personally doubt it.
What i find very odd is that the parents had not been informed. that he was a PoW at least.
Now, with regard to the payroll. I hope John can enlighten us on this. What happened to his pay card or record. As a PoW was he still entitled to be paid. Physically he was not able to draw his pay so would the record be kept up to date or would it have been calculated if and when he returned based on last pay date ? It would seem to me that to keep up a record probably would have been a waste of time as it was not known what happened to these men.
This would make it seem that an entry saying Dead 29/5/40 entered some years later would seem to have been made at the time. But this still does not explain where the evidence came from. The only possible explanation that i can see is if he was murdered then he was subject of the War Crimes investigation. but it was not fully investigated. But there has to be a report somewhere. We hope.
ivor
Ivor, as far as I know (which isn't too far, I grant you) back pay would be calculated and paid uopon a PoW's return to the UK. What the system was for PoWs who died in captivity I can only guess. They would probably have calculated the back pay based on the Red Cross notification of death.
And you're quite right: the death date of 29th May, official from Nov 1941, must have been the result of information received. The Who, How and Why continues to elude us. But that report is what we must search for.
John
Good Morning.
The Red Cross. For some reason (Age :((.?) i have not given them a thought. But after the last 2 posts i did, and maybe a few pennies dropped.
Tony said
'' He stated that the Red Cross had given him details of the capture of RSM Goddard and Anthony lying wounded on the canal bank.''
and John
''They would probably have calculated the back pay based on the Red Cross notification of death.''
To what level would they have been operating in this area at the time. Did a RC representative actually witness Anthony on the bank, or was it reported to them by Goddard.
We have info that a number of PoW's were shot in hospital and their ''Dog Tags'' removed. This would mean that although they were ''Known'' to the hospital they could not be, officially, identified by anyone else. We are aware of 2 shot in St Venant on 27th and believe that 2 may have been shot in Calonne on 29th. If they had no ''Tag's '' would they be recorded as unknowns even though the hospital had records ?
This leads me to believe that the Red Cross did not Officially know of Anthony at the time, they would only have recorded a number of unknowns.
As John says the Official record was amended in Nov 41 which is, i suspect, when the records were handed over to the authorities clearing the field Graves. This does not explain, why when the record was amended in 41 that his parents were not informed.
i think that a hospital file would have been sufficient evidence that he was dead.
i believe that this is the file we need. i would assume that it would be with the rest of the info re the 41/2 clearances.
ivor
The RC did not accompany the fighting troops, Ivor. Their involvement was administrative: both sides would give the RC lists of captured enemy personnel, for communication to the other side. Not captured, not in the books.
John
Can anyone tell me how to retrieve 'saved' messages. I have spent all night typing a reply. For the second time in a few days, the letters keep joining up and often refuse to type. There must be a gremlin loose in the Forum at the moment.
After getting to the end of my message, I clicked 'post' only to find that I was no longer logged in and the message had disappeared.
Thanks,
Tony
Good evening one and all,
Sincere apologies for not replying earlier but I have been waiting for a reply from my MP which has not been forthcoming. I went to see him on Saturday to tell him that I was not very pleased that it was a year since I first asked for his help and no progress had been made. I came out of the seven minute meeting with him a little more hopeful than I was and was satisfied when he told me that he would give the case priority and chase up Philip Hammond.
That paragraph has taken me 15 minutes to type. There is something amiss with this forum. The letters keep joining together and words are missing letters. Can anyone do something about it, please. I will continue this message the way it comes out.
I said thought it was a digace tatI was able t purchase soldiers Wills an Service Records but wenever there sanything that wafree, it cold not be found. I have been ld tobieve that a ot f the ecords were destroyed but it seems tha tey nagd to keep the ones that wee moey spnners for the Authoites.
Sorry, but I give up until this is fixed. Surely I'm not the only one to encounter this fault.
Tony
I have the same problem plus usually the first time I try to type a message in the individual letters go DOWN the page instead of across
Hello Tony/Dave,
Exactly the same problem here however I believe it may be a conflict with IE11 rather than the forum itself .I now use Google Chrome to access the forum and there appear to be no issues when typing.
Hopefully your visit to the MP will spark something in the MoD. Fingers crossed,
Jim