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Not sure these Hospital Units would have been used initially, the DLI I have researched with more serious wounds were sent on the 27th May 1940 to St Pol and those with minor wounds or wounds so serious that they could not be moved were treated at the Sanatorium Augustus??(or similar/illegible document) in St Venant itself using captured medical staff and orderlies . Prior to the German advance Ferme Boulet was as originally stated an aid post.
Latest update from Tony,
No reply was received from the MP so Tony contacted them again he confirmed that no reply had been forthcoming from the MoD hence no update for Tony. The MP agreed to re-contact the MoD and see what was causing the delay. Again Tony received no update .Tony re-contacted the MP again and enquired once again if there was any reply, he in turn contacted the MoD again and this time received the following reply
Do they not deem the disappearance of a British soldier in the course of his duty, fighting for the freedom of this country sufficiently important to warrant a reply?Quote:
Thank you for your email. We have been trying to get you a response, but the MoD have answered neither the original letter, nor a subsequent letter asking for a reply, hence our lack of contact with yourself.
Upon contacting their correspondence office to enquire into this, they stated that due to a high levels of incoming correspondence they cannot guarantee a response on all issues.
Jim
That is precisely the question the MP should be asking in the House, Jim. But somehow I don't think he will. Nobody gives a damn. What a world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verrieres
John
Sadly this is the attitude we have had in all avenues of approach to this from government departments and officials my feeling is they are delaying tactics in the hope the questions will go away. I am convinced there is more known about this officially than is being said, i am equally convinced that we will not be told whatever that is. Of course it may just simply be that staff cuts and relocations of MOD staff at head office buildings in London has meant that a lot of work which was done previously is now not being done.
Cheers
Dave
There is an interesting photo here http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/4143...t-photographs/ British soldiers outside what later became the Lunatic Asylum they look like prisoners to me but i could be wrong.
Apologies if this photo is known to the thread.
Dave
hi all.
can i refer you to my post of 22nd Mar #583.
''Good Morning.
Well guys , you probably now realise that we are into something not quite what we expected. Welcome to St Vennant
In ‘’Ye Olden Days ‘’ a map would have shown the area as ‘’Do Not Enter. There Be DRAGONS Here’.I am very,very reluctant to enter there, as I believe I know who the Dragons are.
You have found that by looking at the War Diaries of the 3 units involved, that they are either wrong, RWF Dates, missing, rewritten. 2DLI or just plain missing. 1RB.
This would not have surfaced otherwise.
There are several known incident of FF.. I believe that the deaths of Lt Garnett of the RWF and 6 others ,Grave markers 23/5/40, RWF WD 24/5/40 . were a result of the advancing RWF coming under fire from a Co of 2/5 WY who had been tasked with the defence of St Floris to hold against the Known German advance into St Vennant. On 23rd.
The account from Mr Cook Snr of the arty fire and the comments of the FOO that they believed that the Gremans held the position, would seem to indicate that British troops were not known to be further west than St Floris.which appears to have been the British Holding Position.
So why were they there ?
Another very strange thing occurs to Mr Cook Snr. On his return to UK he is Hospitalised and he arranges to speak to the parents of his friend who was killed in the FF incident. When he is released from Hospital he is not posted back to his regiment, he is posted, without any prior notification, for Parachute training to become an Air Gunner. I am not sure if you are aware but the life expectancy of an AG was measured in Days/weeks not months. Very Odd. But fortunately he survived and he has my total respect.
I might be a cynical old sod but it might seem that Mr Cook may have been deliberately put in Harms Way.
With regard to the reasons why British troop were in St Vennant. When it was known that the German’s were there on 23rd and the British were holding at St Floris.I will not comment. I have my own opinion regarding this but that is how it will stay.
In conclusion I will just say that yes I believe that there is something very odd here and I do not believe that we are going to get any further with this, unless we are able to find someone outside this forum with a Lot of Seniority and Authority..
Ivor''
Sadly these recent posts do nothing too change my opinion of 7 months ago.
All i will say is that spending some time looking at the background etc of certain individuals killed in possible FF incidents is quite enlightening.
ivor
Hi Ivor, you have im sure looked into the names and background of the people i have sent you a while back maybe you have come to the same conclusion i have that this goes right to the very top even above Field Marshall level. I am not going to post that information on here for what i think is obvious reasons howwever i can now give the forum some more information on the rest of Dads war.
After his para training which was at RAF Cardington near Bedford he was posted to Shorncliffe which he says was because it had an airstrip and was only a short hop to France, he says the reason for him being picked for these duties was they wanted people with a good knowledge of Northern France and who spoke very good French (this i didnt know) he made a lot of trips either by aircraft landing or by parachute into the area where he fought (possibly even the St Venant area though he says he cant remember exactly).
He says he did not know who he was working for which i dont think is correct, however the point of this is he could only have been working for one of two agencies, Secret intelligence services (later Mi6) or the SOE both of which if this is true may be part or all of the reasons why there is silence from all directions on this matter since if his name is mentioned in any paperwork relating to the enquiry even if only in passing then they will not release the information whilst he still lives except to him and in any case the 75 year rule will apply.
Fancyfull you may say, well possibly but a distinct possibility non the less.
Cheers
Dave
Thanks for the Info Dave. but i would be quite surprised if your dads actions after May 1940 would have had any bearing on the original requests from Tony, as they were different units. I can fully understand why anything after his retraining would be unavailable, for the reasons you have stated.
I fully believe that the reasons for this 'Non Cooperation ' is based on the action at St Venant.
ivor
Ivor whilst i understand your point, we have to consider that if ANY paperwork from the events of the time have dads name on it (or anyone connected to dad and the events) because of the later SIS or SOE connections it will be considered to be under the 75 year rule or only released to him personally mate.
Here is an extract from a lady who has investigated SOE etc many time.
SOE papers do exist in TNA, and slowly they are being made public domain however as you say personnel files are by Chancellors order retained for 100 years (on the assumption of individuals birth in 1930) if the individual is either proven or thought to be alive. However SOE personnel files of surviving/living members can be accessed by the member without restriction (post 2003 from memory).... but, the decision was made that any file of a living member that contains information of a member thought or proven to be alive will still be restricted without formal consent of that individual too.
So in reality this is a bit of a daisy chain as in most cases one document relates to another and that relates to another an so on...... but it is by no means a fait accompli.
Information on accessing the SOE files at TNA is obviously on the TNA website, I cant be 100% sure but in the past they were under the purview of Howard Davies in the Records Management Department. File statement: Special Operations Executive: Personnel Files (PF Series) code: HS9
It is also worth noting, that although the files initially can only be accessed by the surviving SOE member, once this has been done and there is no restricted material within they be released for family/public viewing if the member gives formal permission in writing to the appropriate archivist.
Last bit of advice I can give on the topic so far is that as suspect a large proportion of the SOE documentation was possibly destroyed by fire at the end of the war whilst in storage at Baker Street (many I have spoken with have some suspicion over this fact.. or more to the point if this was accidental or deliberate!). Below is the TNA statement put out when there files were released and there was a lot of dismay at the gaping holes...
..."SOE's archive is confused and incomplete. To some extent this is due to the haste and piecemeal fashion in which the organisation developed. For reasons of security no central registry was kept and each branch kept its own papers according to its own filing system. Toward the end of the war there was an attempt to reclassify the papers by subject, irrespective of origin. Only about a quarter of this task was completed in 1946 and as a result two unfinished systems of classification were left. Moreover two major destruction exercises took place, firstly the Oriental mission in Singapore destroyed it files in light of the pending Japanese advance and secondly the Middle Eastern Mission in Cairo, one of SOE's largest foreign stations, similarly destroyed its records as the Germans approached Alexandria. Instructions were subsequently issued for all surviving papers to be sent home after weeding of ephemeral material (Massingham, the Algiers base operating in France, destroyed virtually all its records with the exception of the personal files). Furthermore, a drastic weeding exercise was carried out by inexperienced staff in London. A fire in late 1945 also accounted for a further unknown number of files. Suggested subjects include Finance, FANY, Belgium and Poland. As a result an estimated 85% of SOE records held in London were destroyed..." The National Archive 2002
If your father was with SIS TNA will be a greater help as SIS was much better organised (being of military decent), they held a full Registry unit (incidentally based not far away in St Albans).
Thanks Dave.
But Shorncliffe was an Airfield, however SOE and their Lysanders also flew into and out of Fields.
Having lived in Huntingdon for a number of years the no of WW2 airfields within the area was quite remarkable.
Alconbury (USAF).Wyton. Warboys. Upwood ( USAF Base Hospital ) and several others.
But there was a little known Field used by SOE at Somersham.
http://www.airfieldinformationexchan...4206-Somersham
I suspect that there were a no of similar fields dotted about the south.
But i still think that whatever your dad's activities after May 1940 i do not think they are the reason behind the attitude of MoD etc; which as far as i am concerned Stinks.
quoting Jim.
''Do they not deem the disappearance of a British soldier in the course of his duty, fighting for the freedom of this country sufficiently important to warrant a reply?''
Of course it warrants a reply and a possible investigation. I suspect that we may wish to change our attitude towards MoD/CWGC with regard to this enquiry. To do that we need someone with some Clout.
I believe that we have enough info which in the right hands could cause some serious embarrassment if it was made known.
So anyone have any contact with any Ex Officers/MP's who might be sympathetic to our cause.
ivor
If im honest neither do i mate, but if does illustrate the sort of rules we are up against though if it is these rules holding the information back then why not just say so.
Morning Dave.
If it is rules, then we have a problem. As we are both aware, when dealing with stuff from the public then Gov Depts are not very forthcoming. As Jim said they possibly are thinking that we will go away. Sorry No Chance.There is something peculiar here and it needs sorting. as i have said, as far as i am aware there is no forum member with enough clout to even cause a ripple, let alone a wave. We need someone with a lot of seniority or authority, who we can brief as to what we believe and if they are in agreement, to take this forward.
ivor
Guys just a thought. It might be worth posting a half page precis on this thread, about the original search query and where you are now. It's now 66 pages long and probably difficult and time consuming to bring yourself upto date if your a new visitor to the thread?
I`ll give it a go its not complete and who made what enquiry isn't on either but its what is roughly contained here on the Forum. Sorry if I`ve left anything or anyone out.
Anthony Corkhill (Durham Light Infantry) Killed during the Dunkirk Withdrawal - The Search for Answers
- 1940 Family are notified Pte Corkhill is missing.
Family enquire with the Red Cross and RSM Goddard(Durham Light Infantry) who was taken prisoner, into their sons disappearance
Correspondence received from the War Office regrets Pte Corkhill presumed Died of Wounds in France
Confirmation Pte Corkhill died of wounds 29th May 1940 No Known grave
Reply forwarded by the Red Cross from RSM Goddard who saw Pte Corkhill on the Canal bank wounded in both legs and a slight neck wound.Germans forbid RSM Goddard from taking his former batman with them instructing them to make him comfortable and to await their Field ambulance.
Contact with RSM Goddards family who confirm that Pte Corkhills fate was something which saddenened him throughout his life.
War Crimes files released by the MoD relate to several murders of British troops in the area during May 1940.Most unknown.File states possibly 60 men killed 6 cases highlighted 4 investigated men of Germania and Totenkopf Divisions interviewed all claim to have passed through the area.No outcome of trial/investigation recorded.Large mass grave at St venant containing 60-90 British dead.
Enquiries to CWGC into verification of date of death 29th May 1940 for Pte Corkhill.Date according to CWGC was supplied by the War Office.CWGC claim they know nothing further and hold no information on any `unknowns`
Mass grave is denied by CWGC despite it featuring on their Website.
Tony applies for service records death ammended in 1941 to 29th May 1940.
Anthony Corkhills will is obtained date of death 29th May 1940
Missing men file examined as enquiries were made regarding those missing in 1940.No enquiry found relating to Pte Corkhill .Roll within the file states Anthony Corthill (Mispelled but number confirmed) DEAD reference Q80.
Investigation into what `Q` Reference is possibly `Form Q` relating to report of War Crimes
Enquiries into Forms Q only extracts available actual wearabouts of Forms Q `Not known- National Archives.
Searcher party files explored and no instruction found to `search` for Pte Corkhill.
Check on DLI Non Effective File for 1940 `Pte Corkhill died in France 29th May 1940.
Investigation into unknown soldier buried next to Pte Walt the only other DLI casualty listed for May 29th 1940. Despite previous statement from CWGC that no information regarding unknowns is recorded they confirm unknown is a `Corporal` not a Private.
Investigations conducted into German records German war graves commission and the Bundeswehr Museum No Trace for Pte Corkhill.
CWGC confirm dates of death are last seen or body found which in Pte Corkhills case should have been the RSM Goddard last sighting on the 27th May however it isnt its two days later prompting the question who was last to see Anthony on the 29th May 1940
Researcher given list of 29 officers and men repatriated in 1941 in the hope that one filled out a Form Q in addition to their Liberation Questionaire. NO questionaires can be found for any of them.
Officer Michael Farrs questionaire located in locked MI19 file Freedom of Information request made. National archives deny its existance.
Tony approachers MP who promises to contact MoD in relation to enquiry nearly six months later no reply despite another two approaches from the MP and Tony.
MoD correspondence office state they are busy and not every enquiry wil receive a reply
Press contacted and after initial interest suddenly decide they are too busy to investigate further.
Enquiries made into known exumation of bodies in 1946 no official confirmation received.French Historian holds local records but cannot help the Corkhills after his help was instrumental in the Rodgers family obtaining a headstone for another DLI soldier
Enquiries made to the Mayors Office in St venant regarding surviving records-No reply
List of dead from mass grave obtained no mention of Anthony Corkhill but at least two other soldiers listed as missing No interest from official bodies.
Jim
Thanks Jim saves going over a lot of old ground
UPDATE from Ministry of Defence.
I contacted the Minister of Defence via EMail questioning the lack of response to Tony`s questions .Since then I have received two acknowledgements and more importantly Tony has received a reply the relevant paragraph is featured below. Please read it ,then read it again I have and the more I read it the more I believe that they tend to agree that theres more somewhere...just not with them?
Quote:
In many instances it would have been routine practice, to put an individual in the `missing category’ because the local military authorities were not in possession of sufficient information to decide what had happened to him and were unable to satisfy themselves that he was in fact `dead’. Subsequently, extensive enquiries were made through every possible channel during the war, and in the post war period these enquiries would have been intensified with the repatriation of thousands of former Prisoners Of War and former comrades. Some of this work has ended up in the casualty packs now held in the National Archives in WO 361. It is quite possible that more detailed information was received by the casualty branch/unit on particular casualties but that once they had been able to confirm a date/location of death this information was not retained for permanent preservation. At this juncture in time we simply have no way of saying if this was the case or not. All I can do is assure you that if such data had been retained and selected for permanent preservation then it would be within files held at the National Archives.
You may already be familiar with the workings of the War Office Casualty Branch during the War. There are reports in the National Archives including the following which may be of interest in providing some background of the types of enquiries undertaken to determine details of casualties:
WO 32/14356
http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...s?uri=C6291346
WO 32/14358
http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...s?uri=C6291348
Jim
In short:
"The information may exist, but then it may not. In either case we know nothing about it so stop bothering us."
John
Ref the holding of records i can say that those still in possestion of the MOD are now run by a civy company since 2008 so that could explain the lack of cooperation, also various records have over the years been held at a number of places for instance MOD civilian records used to be held in LLangennic and when they were sorted for the move when that establishment closed many were disposed of unless they were either of national importance or related to a person of great standing either at the time of service or later. SIS records are i believe held in St Albans and many SOE records were held in Baker street until a fire destroyed most of them, other MOD records are held in two places one in the midlands and one on the South coast (do a search on google cos i wont name the places for obvious reasons). There was an article in a paper http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-files-archive which shows what problems we will encounter with the MOD although these records relate mostly to Northern Ireland who knows where and how many other records may be sitting waiting to be found, processed and released (a good 75 % will of course be destroyed for the reason stated earlier) family ties and problems like Tonys may well not be considered important enough to be saved for posterity.
Next is my post on the wardrobe guestbook ref dad has at last been replied to, the first post in December last year has gone completely however the second post in May has been replied to albeit i believe censored any mention of the friendly fire incident appears to have been edited out.
Dave Cooke - 6th May 2013
My father (1st Btn) was at St Venant circa 24/29 May 1940. On the 24th he and several others were guarding the footbridge over the canal to the North West of St Venant and close to Haverskerque. His is Name Ronald Edward Cooke i think he may have been a L/Cpl at the time he survived the battles in this area and arrived safely back in England (though wounded) and spent time in hospital at Warwick . He is still alive at 95 this year and still with it mentally though he doesnt get around much. Regards Dave Cooke
The first time i posted this i mentioned the friendly fire incident and the name of his mate and father (i reckon that is why it has been deleted).
Lastly Jim your info about "locked files" in MI 19 i feel that freedom of informatrion will do us no good here since as part of the Secret Intelligence Service there files are closed for 100 years and considered as not in the public interest to know as well as being likely to put the security of the realm at risk (this is a blanket assumption no matter what the file relates to.
Now lets look at MI 19 itself.
From Wikipedia.
MI19 was a section of the British Directorate of Military Intelligence, part of the War Office. In World War II it was responsible for obtaining information from enemy prisoners of war.
It was originally created in December 1940 as MI9a, a sub-section of MI9. A year later, in December 1941, it became an independent organisation, though still closely associated with its parent.[1]
MI19 had Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centres (CSDIC) at Beaconsfield, Wilton Park and Latimer as well as a number overseas.[2]
MI19 operated an interrogation centre in Kensington Palace Gardens, London, commanded by Lt. Col. Alexander Scotland OBE, known as the "London Cage". It was a subject of persistent reports of torture by the prisoners confined there, which included war crimes suspects from the SS and Gestapo held in the facility after World War II.[3]
The BBC reported that MI-19 staff were sent to the Channel Islands in 1945 to look for evidence of collaboration during the German occupation. The intent may have been to silence speculation. The Channel Islands were demilitarised by Britain when France fell, and were occupied by substantial German forces. The islands had no strategic value, unlike Malta, and any tactical value would have been outweighed by the effort to maintain forces there. The Channel Islands did contribute to the war effort, by tying up large numbers of German troops who were not available for more aggressive military tasks. There was also a very substantial investment in fortifications, all of which were in the end pointless.[4]
The point here is that since the department was responsible for the interrogation of prisoners of war especially ones suspected of war crimes what the hell is this questionaire doing with then, i can only guess that in some way Michael Farr had witnessed some executions and just maybe one was Anthony (strange is it not that the only form to come to light is this one). Here it may be useful to give some information about Michaels incarceration as a prisoner "
Michael Farr's medals are located in Medal Case 15 , Display Group 2
Born in 1918 in Burma, he was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the DLI in January 1939. He fought with the 2nd Battalion DLI on the River Dyle and then back on the long retreat towards Dunkirk. He was taken prisoner along with most of his battalion on 27 May 1940 at St Venant in northern France. After his first escape attempt, which also involved a raid on the Camp Commandant's wine cellar, he was sent to a special camp in Poland, where he was kept in a dungeon. He was then moved to Biberach POW Camp and again tried to escape. After several other unsuccessful attempts from Warburg and Eichstatt POW Camps, including one in June 1943 when he tunneled out and made it across the River Danube before he was recaptured, he was finally sent to Colditz Castle. At Colditz, he joined other "hardliners" in the top security prison and worked on the construction of the famous glider in the castle's roof that was only abandoned when the war ended. He also made wine and ran the castle's distillery. Finally liberated in April 1945, Lieutenant Michael Farr was awarded the MBE in January 1946 for his efforts to escape whilst a POW. After the war, he worked for the family firm in Plymouth making "Hawker's Pedlars Sloe Gin". Michael Farr died in January 1993. So a checkered prisoner then, is it possible he was working for military intelligence because if so this whole thing would start to make sense as to why no records or assistance is forthcoming.
Dont know if this makes any sense but i hope it will throw some light on the weird events we are coming up against.
Cheers
Dave
Hi all.
well at first it seemed that finally we have been given some constructive info. nah. don't we already know the date when the DoD was amended. so is this just a '' lets give them a bit. they might go away ''. Not a Hope in Hell. there is something wrong here which needs sorting.
ivor
Update.
The Freedom of information request to have Lt Farrs Liberation form opened from the MI 19 file has been declined with the NA saying if it existed then a duplicate would be in the open file ..which it isnt but is in the index any further enquiries are reccomended to be sent to....THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE!
Round and round we go again!
Best Wishes
Jim
Jim my belief is this is deliberate obstruction by the authorities and has been all along.
Update time again.
Three liberation reports identified
Liberation No 1587 L/Cpl Edward
J Watson 2nd Durham Light Infantry,Captured St Venant May 1940 Escaped from St Venant 1940???? File WO208/3334
Liberation No 1058 Lt Col R B Y Simpson Durham Light Infantry File WO208/3332
Liberation No 588 Lt M Farr Durham Light Infantry File WO208/3331 (this I
presume was the original reference)
I`m afraid the files relating to all 3 2DLI are sealed the
range of files/reports available are WO 208\3298 - WO 208\3327 and then from WO
208\3348 -WO 208\3352 those between 208/3328-208/3347 are not available.19 files not
available the 3 identified reports amongst them
Three Gallantry awards for actions at St Venant identified
Captain Stallard DSO
Lt Colonel Simpson DSO
CSM Qualtrough MC
No citations available awards simply state `For Services Prior to Capture`
Lt Farrs personal papers found! He wrote a book (unpublished?) entitled `Wine and War`
First chapter deals with the Dyle and subsequent capture at St Venant no mention of Anthony by name but heres a summary of the St Venant section;-
Lt Farr was Hq company, signals officer his signals equipment was lost at the
Dyle so he took his place..in the barn with the other riflemen ..no orders to
withdraw were received from Brigade the men were forced back to the bank of the
canal where the Germans had infiltrated to the far bank and proceeded to fire
into the DLI`s backs. Lt Farr gathered seven men from HQ and attempted to get
them across the canal but they were under fire from all sides in an attempt to
clear a way through they pushed a truck into the canal before he decided to
turn back with his signals sergeant and take out the snipers. Rushing towards
the ruins of a building on the canal bank the building was hit by a shell and
destroyed the whole area was now under heavy machine gun fire Lt Farr dropped
into a hollow on the canal bank here he remained for several hours lying
undetected by the canal bank watching as the German armour rolled on by he
wrote "If I had detonators I could have destroyed some from my position I felt
so helpless if only I could have stopped the swines!" he went on "My friends
and men I had trained with were blown up before my very eyes" "I should have
done better I should have killed more but always the laughing echo returned ..
you fool with what? Damn it what could you have done!"
Then it was over a German soldier discovered him he was surrounded by the Hun
"all pointing their machine guns at me and cocking their rifles" Farr was
dragged off to the German Hq which was set up nearby and was put before an SS
officer with a large scar across his face the soldiers who had captured him
were "deaths head hussars" SS Storm troopers "I knew nothing I said nothing not
even rank and number I was very bewildered but most of all I was angry, sad and
angry" Farr was taken to a Barn where he found a discarded Belgian blanket
soon he was marched off the SS Officer sneered "We will be in London in 10days"
Farr certainly had no love for the Germans up until his imprisonment in Colditz and refers
to the SS as "murderous swine". He also witnessed the shooting of a 8th DLI officer
in a Camp by a guard too whom he refers to as having the satisfaction of seeing
him hang six years later.
In respect of Colonel Simpson I also found reference to a MiD and on the bottom of the recommendation is
marked `secret` there was a note that this officer was in touch with the war Office by
`secret` means and any references to the award must not include those details.
That's all at present the search for the next piece of the puzzle continues.
Best Wishes
Jim
Thanks Jim.
Very interesting, i wonder does the files being '' sealed '' refer to the 75 year rule or are they sealed permanently ?. the second puzzle is, why would a MID be classified ' secret ' very odd. This would, to me at least, confirm my suspicion that there is a ' cover up '.
but thinking about this, if there is, then there is a distinct possibility that the Frenchman also found it in the Rodgers investigation. is this why he has become non cooperative in our case. he has been effectively silenced. It might explain why files which should be open to the public are in private hands with no access.
ivor
Jim, great stuff mate.
As Ivor i still have many reservations about the Sealed files i assume from " those between 208/3328-208/3347 are not .19 reports not
available the 3 identified files amongst them" i assume this means the files are NOT Mi9 files, however logic says that the whole series MUST be in some way connected to and/or hold information (maybe) names that involves SOE or one of the MI departments. It is possible though that these files have just not been checked and indexed for release yet (as i said in another post thousands of files are waiting to be processed round the country)
"In respect of Colonel Simpson I also found reference to a MiD and on the bottom of the recommendation is
marked `secret` there was a note that this officer was in touch with the war Office by
`secret` means and any references to the award must not include those details."
This reinforces my belief there is an MI dept involved somewhere here, assuming that Col Simpson was a POW then it may relate to him being in touch by radio or an underground organisation from the camp so may have been providing intelligence via the war office to MI or SOE, shades of Hogans heroes or Allo Allo you may think well maybe but things like that did happen.
Is there any info on where Col Simpson was held in a POW camp (if indeed he was) ? as this may help to explain the secret.
From Farrs information it would appear that he would have been on the canal bank with Anthony and so would have been captured at the same time could it therefore have been he who last saw Anthony alive before he was taken off to an officers Oflag and Anthony taken to an enlisted camp (or otherwise dealt with) after Farr had gone.
From the description the SS involved were certainly Totenkopfverbande
Whilst the officer in the book could have been almost anyone it may well have been Fritz Knöchlein (May 27, 1911, Munich – January 28, 1949) was an SS-Obersturmbannführer (Lieutenant Colonel) during the Second World War who was subsequently convicted and executed for war crimes. It was in his capacity as a company commander that he gained notoriety, being responsible for the 27 May 1940 massacre of British prisoners-of-war at Le Paradis in the Pas-de-Calais. Ninety-nine members of the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Norfolk Regiment who had surrendered to his unit in a cattle shed were stood in front of the barn wall, and Knöchlein ordered two machine-guns turned on them, followed by bayoneting and shooting any apparent survivors.
At his war crimes trial Knöchlein claimed that he was tortured during his detention in the "London Cage", which the head of the "London Cage" Alexander Scotland dismisses in London Cage as a "lame allegation". According to Knöchlein, he was stripped, deprived of sleep, kicked by guards and starved. He said that he was compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. After complaining to Alexander Scotland, Knöchlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down stairs, and beaten. He claimed he was forced to stand beside a hot gas stove before being showered with cold water. He claimed that he and another prisoner were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs. "Since these tortures were the consequences of my personal complaint, any further complaint would have been senseless," Knöchlein wrote. "One of the guards who had a somewhat humane feeling advised me not to make any more complaints, otherwise things would turn worse for me." Other prisoners, he alleged, were beaten until they begged to be killed, while some were told that they could be made to disappear.
Scotland said in his memoirs that Knöchlein was not interrogated at all at the London Cage because there was sufficient evidence to convict him, and he wanted "no confusing documents with the aid of which he might try to wriggle from the net." During his last nights at the cage, Scotland states, Knöchlein "began shrieking in a half-crazed fashion, so that the guards at the London Cage were at a loss to know how to control him. At one stage the local police called in to enquire why such a din was emanating from sedate Kensington Palace Gardens.
Upon being found guilty, Knöchlein applied for clemency, arguing that he had a wife and four children that depended on him, but was sentenced to be hanged, a verdict that was carried out on January 28, 1949.
So once again we have a reference to MI9
My understanding is that although the files we want may not be actual MI9 files if they contain reference to MI9 or names of any one connected to or detained in that department then they come under the ruling i have stated elsewhere in this thread.
Cheers now
Dave
Morning all.
In view of this info it has changed my thinking to a degree. First, from the reports it gave me the impression that the prisoners were marched off into captivity straight away. but this may not have been the case.there were so many men captured at St Venant that to have small groups of men marching across country would have been impossible. Would the groups not have been taken to a holding area away from the front line and held there maybe for a few days. this also may explain something else. We know that there were several British men in the hospital at Calonne,maybe including Anthony, if they were fit enough then would they have been expected to march with the rest, if not, well we know a number of men were shot on 29 may. could this have been the day when the long march started ?
If L/Cpl Watson escaped could he have been the witness that reported Anthony's murder.
now
I`m afraid the files relating to all 3 2DLI are sealed the
range of reports available are WO 208\3298 - WO 208\3327 and then from WO
208\3348 -WO 208\3352 those between 208/3328-208/3347 are not .19 reports not
available the 3 identified files amongst them
i think there is a typo here i think is should read
'' are not. 19 reports etc''
it might be interesting to know if the other 16 refer to other units at St Venant. would this be possible. i have a suspicion they might.
ivor
Hello,
Just a little clarification
The files are all MI 19 Files dealing with Liberation Reports etc.
Sorry there are 19 Files unavailable from the range of reference numbers now held at the NA not 19 solitary reports
They are sealed and although the Index states the reports are within these files a Freedom of Information request has ,in the case of Farrs report, been met with a `Sorry we do not have that one Please contact the Ministry of Defence`
Simpson was the DLI Commanding officer in 1945 he was in Camp OFLAG 12B in Bavaria on 14th April 1945 the Germans attempted to force march the occupants away from the advancing Allies a short distance from the Camp the long columns of bedraggled PoWs were mistaken by the USAAF for German Troops Fourteen British officers were killed and 46 were wounded. The camp was liberated two days later with no transport available the British contingent marched back to their own lines.
The MiD was awarded for `Services whilst a PoW` the DSOs and MC for `Services Prior to Capture`
Dave I too believe that Farr must have been on that Canal Bank at the same time as Anthony as he recalls been there for hours afterwards.
Ivor.It would indeed be interesting to see what the other 16 files relate too I will set about trying to find out and let you know.
Jim
Hi Jim thanks for that, if the files are Mi9 then as i understand it they are sealed for 100 years from the date of the youngest file related or mentioned in them and may only be accesed in the first place by the individual mentioned in them if still alive after then the individual may give permission for others to see them (this is on the instructions of the Lord Chamberlain apparently).I would guess it is easier for the clerk to say we dont have the file than to explain the rules.
This would apply I think to he info about the MID secret information as well.
Cheers
Dave
Cheers DaveQuote:
Originally Posted by dcdl12976
Unfortunately that 100 year rule appears very flexible as all of the WO 208 series are MI 19 Files and they are open? From what I can gather some files have in addition to the reports held within have appendices with `other` detailed information and this may be the reason they are `locked`.
The MiD is freely available from the NA for £3.50 I have had my copy for a few years when for a short period the NA were digitising records free of charge,something which was halted without notice a short while after .They now charge for everything unless you can visit in person.
Strangely enough I have read loads of files relating to the murder of British servicemen,read files naming possible collaborators so what is hiding in our files that there seems to be a blanket ban on all of them? Puzzled!
Jim
Yes Jim I agree, when you could download the files for free I got a full set of the ones relating to Laurence of Arabia (including his dental records) over 500 pages if I remember correctly.
Apparently the MI files are like a pyramid and ones with any reference names or even just file reference) to a locked one are also locked, reasons can be many and include names of living agents, unsolved war crimes an possible litigation from living persons who may claim torture or treatment in breech of the Geneva convention etc don't forget we are dealing with spys here and for good reason MI are naturally a secretive organisation.
Cheers
Dave
Morning all.
Well, if these files are on a 100 year seal then it is probably 'Game Over ' as we are not going to get any further.
But, this has got me wondering. What is the difference between our quest and the Rodgers case. First it appears to have had a lot more publicity. Second , in the beginning they also drew a blank from authorities it wasn't until they were put in contact with the Frenchman that they had any success. Why? Because the Frenchman has 'the Files ', which the u.k. do not accept.
So,although not accepted, was the evidence in the French files sufficient for CWGC to allow the Marker, which is a ''somewhere near this spot' i think. Or, because of the publicity involved, was it allowed as a means of getting the Frenchman and his files out of the picture.
Now, in our case, for reasons best known to himself,the Frenchman will not help Tony.
But what evidence of our own do we have. We have evidence from the RSM that Anthony was somewhere along the Canal Bank. although not exactly where, still a fairly specific location. we know that a German Field Ambulance was operating in the area,and a field hospital was located at Calonne.
Now i believe it is reasonable to assume that Anthony would have been taken to this hospital. on the 27th.
On the 29th it is recorded he is dead.very specific.So it would seem to me that whoever witnessed the death,Must Have Been in the Same Place. so,surely, when the death was reported then the location would also have been reported.
I have the impression that the confirmation of the DoD was given before 46, so would not have been in a Liberation report. could L/Cpl Watson who escaped have been the one who reported it.
Somewhere there must be, i believe, a report with the location of Anthony's death probably with the circumstances surrounding it. But Where?
ivor
Over the years I have often had a small nagging doubt that the Q57 and Q80 referred to after Anthony Corkhills name may not be a reference to Forms Q especially as we have not unearthed any direct link to Forms Q ,St Venant and War Crimes indeed we are constantly running into brick walls in our quest to uncover leads.
Tonight was different in my possession I have a couple of pages from The Royal Berks `Missing Men` file again we have several Q57 references but one in particular is, in my eyes anyhow, quite significant. Halfway down the list is the words `5332412 BAKER DIED Q57` Baker was MURDERED there is a War Crimes File documenting his murder, his identification and the investigation in 1946 for the trial. BAKERs case was one of four selected to represent those war crimes reported in May 1940 from the SIX documented in the War Crimes file. Ironic that the last of the two not selected was the murder of a British soldier in Ferme Boulet from which this thread has taken its name/lead ?
Seasons Greetings to All
Jim
Thanks Jim.
Have a great Christmas and new year.
A very interesting thread this...I am sure the answer is out there.
maybe one of the two files you mention..
All the best I look forward to more posts on this..
Steve..aka..chow
hi.
thanks Jim,
seasons greetings to you.
Your last post stirred a niggle i have had for a while re the war crimes files.
Some time ago i wrote re a piece of 'SS' nastiness named Dix. i think he was involved with murders in the St Venant area. and i speculated that he might have been involved in shooting troops in hospital, possibly Anthony.
unfortunately he got himself killed before the end of the war.
Now. as you say not all files were used in prosecution, would have been too many, but what i have been wondering is. when a prosecution has been completed the file would be kept. but if a known murderer was investigated and a file prepared, if it was then found the person had died, what would happen to the file.
would it be buried. there seems to be very few prosecutions for war crimes relating to 1940's so what is the possibility that there are somewhere a heap of files lying around that could not be used which might contain references to many more murders.
The reports re Anthony's murder and others must be somewhere. if we accept the authority's don't have them. then where are they??????.
ivor
I would like to say thank you to everyone who has contributed, viewed, talked about or even just thought about this thread. I really appreciate it. I wish you all a peaceful and happy Christmas and a healthy and prosperous New Year.
Thank you,
Tony
Same to you Tony, im sure I speak for all involved when I say we are only sorry we have not been able to help fully and solve this for you SO FAR but don't give up hope new avenues may open up mate.
Jim, I would think the reason the other two Q forms were not used for prosecution was because there were no witnesses and therefore would not have stood as evidence, this would mean the cases are still open and help to explain why they are likely held by MI. I think just maybe one of the men in the hospital was Anthony. Don't forget it may not have been the assaulting units that perpetrated these crimes, more likely he following Feldendarmerie (Field Police) following up one of whose jobs was to search for and round up stragglers, escapees and wounded or hidden enemy.
May be worth contacting the Wiesenthal center see if the have any info on this after all they have been chasing the perpetrators of war crimes for many years with great success.
It would be interesting too see the other pages as el mate if possible.
Ivor, do you have a first name for Dix mate ? it my be useful to investigate him fully.
Bearing in mind the NA website has stated that Forms Q are not with them but possibly in the case files of the relevant investigations .Touching on what Dave has said about open cases I took a look online to see if I could find out who might hold these papers? Remember there were only four selected for trial and we have found no mention of Anthony of the DLI in any of them so I believe if they were used at all it was only as background and not actually submitted as evidence. If not then they are still with the MoD or NA.
Moving on I found a reference to Microfilm of Documents ;-
http://www.archives.gov/research/cap...film/t1021.pdf
In the Index is a single file relating to St Venant and another possibly associatedQuote:
GERMAN DOCUMENTS AMONG THE WAR CRIMES RECORDS OF THE
JUDGE ADVOCATE DIVISION, HEADQUARTERS, UNITED STATES ARMY, EUROPE
Introduction
Many German documents from the World War II period are contained in the war crimes case files of
Headquarters, United States Army Europe (HQ USAREUR), Judge Advocate Division, dated 1945-58.
These files contain transcripts of trial testimony, clemency petitions, affidavits, prosecution exhibits,
photographs of concentration camps, etc., as well as original German documents used as evidence in the
prosecution of the numerous war crimes cases, excluding the Nuremberg Trials, concerning atrocities in
concentration camps, atrocities committed on Allied military personnel and Allied fliers who crash landed
in Germany, and other crimes. Only the German documents predating May 8, 1945, have been included
in this filming project.
A data sheet describing the material in each folder microfilmed is included before the items filmed. The
Judge Advocate Division file number has been used to identify each item wherever given. In other
instances whatever identifying information is available, such as the case or exhibit number, has been
given as the item number. Overall provenance for the records is HQ USAREUR. Judge Advocate
Division, as all German documents in the files were made a permanent part of the records of that office;
however, the original German provenance of the items filmed is given as the provenance on the data
sheets.
Quote:
000-11-102, Vol. I
Wehrmacht Graboffizier Karten
Grave registration card of deceased German military personnel of SS-Germania
Division, who died at St Venant, France, on May 25 and 27, 1940
It would be interesting to find something else related to St Venant but even this scrap proves efforts were made to identify those units present/responsible for whatever occurred during May 1940Quote:
000-11-103, Vol. I
Ortskommandantur Bethune Feldpostnummer 33098
Kriegsgräber
Report of the Ortskommandantur Behtune to the mayor of Lestrom, France, concerning
the listing of German and foreign military graves on index cards. Sep. 1,
1940
Jim
morning all.
while browsing stuff on ''War Crimes'' i found the following interesting article.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...s-8640776.html
ivor
So once again we have reference to MI9 then
hi.
yes.
MI 19. appears to be a very shadowy set up. what i also find interesting is the date of the article. 26/12. i wonder. could be an interesting programme on Sunday.
ivor