Anyone got any views really need to see more business leaders on TV
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Anyone got any views really need to see more business leaders on TV
I don't think we need business leaders views or their opinions there are far to many scar mongering about doom and gloom if we leave the EU I do hope the young people who have never had the chance to vote on the EU vote for leaving. the UK are doomed if we stay in we only receive half or less the monies we pay in interference from the EU courts we had our own human rights that worked well enough the great man sir Winston Churchill was one of the founders our boarder control is fine out side of EU interference sorry rabbiting on you only need your own veiw your opinion no body Else's matter
Sooner were Out the better I reckon. That way we could at least Close our Borders to anymore of these Undesirables coming in from Africa/Eastern Europe. You see on tv all the Gangs of Shoplifters they pick up in London etc are nearlly all Romanians etc. Get rid of them all I say. Braz
Think you will find we have closed borders now but they still getting in
Yep they will still get in no matter what yes they will continue to try and get in but our government do not have the balls to deport them they the people in the seats of power are afraid of being called raciest just like Mr Enoch powell
The EU was and is a pipe dream, and it's all going up in smoke! You only have to look at Frau Merkel's open door policy and the events on New Years Eve in Cologne to see the result of her idea! The sooner we are out and start to govern our own country without their interference the better!
UK border threat: France to build mega-camp for refugees for first time in 13 years
"BRITAIN could face another wave of illegal migrants after France announced plans to build a second migrant camp on its northern coast."
What next, build a Boat yard next door? If we vote to stay out France will do what they always wanted and let in the migrants and since we would not be a member of the EU there would be no Court to complain to, by all means have a decent number of migrants, genuine Asylum seekers, not the once that have jumped on the bandwagon pretending to be from a conflict area, Someone walked through the Tunnel from France and was given Asylum last week, that sends a signal, what happends if 2,000, in one wave, was to walk through, there is no gate to close, or our "Friendly" neighbour, France, fills a train and sends it over, which ever way we vote we cant win on the migrant issue.
Hi..
The Migrant issue is just a relatively small part of the issue here. The much bigger problem is Trade. As members of the EU we as a nation can trade within a set of very favorable terms with the other EU countries which is a very large marketplace. If we leave the EU that will cease, and as a Non EU country we would have to renegotiate new deals on terms which would not be as favorable. The USA have already stated that they would not be prepared to deal favorably with a non EU Britain. As we no longer have the Commonwealth to fall back on, i believe that we would , in a very short time, find ourselves in a much, much worse position than we are now. Mind you it might solve the migration problem.. as no one would want to come here.
ivor
Yes a big problem for us all to decide on our future as a country to remain with a defuncted EU who are more like a dictatorship living under threat from the French and mist the other members and stay Americans 51st state, or be our own people to run our own affairs how we see fit all we need is a strong government not what we have just now.
Mind you we can all pick and choose, this is one,
The importance of the European Union as the UK's main trading partner appears to be dwindling as the share of UK goods exported to the region fell to a record low in April.Just 45.1pc of the goods that the UK exported that month went to the EU, down from 52pc in the previous year.
The data showed that Britain's overall trade deficit, including both goods and services, narrowed dramatically in April. The proportion of the UK's goods that are exported to the European Union has been shrinking since the early 2000s, when it accounted for around two thirds of total UK goods exports.Martin Beck, an economist at Oxford Economics, said: "The latest trade data showed a further decline in the EU's importance as a market for UK exports."He concluded that by 2020 the deficit , at this trend, will be under 40pc"
hi..
an interesting set of figures..But figures can be twisted to suit a persons point of view.. ok the % of trade with the EU has fallen.. but it does not mention that there has been, i believe, a decline in Britain's manufacturing industry.with a number of traditionally British firms moving their bases to the old Eastern European countries to reduce the Cost of Manufacture . It could be said that the reduction British trade in EU trade is due to this. Also what it not mentioned is market competition. at one time the term ''Made in China'' was a possible indication of poor quality goods. that is no longer the case. Chinese goods are now of a good quality. but are produced much cheaper. so can claim a larger % of the market. I believe that to leave the EU would, if the price of Ex EU British goods increased it would reduce the Market % even further. Whilst i agree there are a number of issues within the EU it is not only UK that has problems.
ivor
I agree with the above but I have read that not being part of the EU opens up the markets to India and China for us which at present is restricted if you are a members of the EU.
Hi
while i agree with the above, i am not sure that we would gain any benefit from them. The problem is that although they appear to be potentially Vast Markets.are they ?. Yes they have Huge market potential..on paper. i think that a large % of the people are very poor, certainly in comparison with the West, so would they be able to afford Imported Goods, especially if they are higher priced than locally produced items.
The next problem is Steel. the UK no longer has any Steel industry. it was sold off to India,(Tata) which has now shut down most of the industry. Therefore we have to Buy Steel from India, or elsewhere. which is an added expense. So when you can no longer control the price of a commodity, you are at the mercy of market trends. The reason for the nosedive in British Steel has been the Over Production by the Cheaper Manufacturers. in the Belief of a Continued high demand from the Chinese market. This downturn in the Chinese Manufacturing industry, which possibly should have been foreseen. Has caused, and will continue to cause, major problems for some time. I read the other day that the Chinese stock markets lost about 7% of its value in a matter of hours forcing them to close.
I think, as a member of the EU, we may be shielded from some of these problems. But as an Independent Manufacturer with high production costs, i think we would have a serious struggle to compete with the EU, for any increased share of any Global Market.
ivor
If you watched the debate between Farage/Jones you will see one confident leader and one scaremonger.
Missed it so who is who ?????
hi.
I didn't watch that debate and i wont watch any politician on telly. The problem is, as i said before, figures and data and stuff can be and frequently is, Twisted to suit the particular persons point of view.. For instance, The most misused one is the Unemployment Figures. it is headlined '' 6% of working age Population on Dole or Benefit'' Big headlines. but would ''94% of population in Work'' have the same effect, i doubt it. It is Very Difficult to make any sort of Decision based on The Media as they all have their own particular Crusade.
My own Personal Feeling is, we should stay in the EU. We are in an age where the Multi National Companies Rule,sadly. and as a small island nation the UK does not have the Influence we once had, since we gave up the Commonwealth. So do we want to be a small fish swimming alone with the dangers of Sharks or the Financial Markets, or would we be better off as a member of a ''School'' where we have the protection of larger Numbers. I know what my choice is..
ivor
I'm not a fan of where the EU is currently, but I can see the validity of Ivor's comments in favour of staying in, they make very real sense. The problem is that it's been a huge experiment, run by faceless, unelected bureaucrats, and is not the trading group that we originally joined. I think anyone who votes purely on the immigration issue is making a huge mistake, there's a lot more to the in/out question than that subject. Also migrants/immigration is a developing story, Merkal is now under real pressure, following the Cologne incidents, Shengen is suspended following the Paris attacks and with more on the way, is likely to be even further watered down. So it's a changing narrative, but of course an important part of the debate, but not the only aspect of membership.
Also, World Wars. My parents generation were obsessed with this subject, as were theirs and rightly so. The longest period since 1945, when one of the big players in Europe hasn't been attacking another, something easily overlooked, but a very real fear throughout the 20th Cent, which is partly where the Common Market came from.
I'm one of those "undecideds" and I'm looking forward to Feb, when the negoiations are finished and the politicians are then open to proper scrutiny. If you are really interested in this subject, and want to see the politicians sweat, catch "The Daily Politics" every lunchtime on BBC2 with Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn…two of the finest analysts/interviewers , for my money, they're worth the licence fee alone.
"an interesting set of figures..But figures can be twisted to suit a persons point of view."
The figures on the fall in export ar facts, the reason for that is another story as you rightly pointed out Ivor, I have not seen the debate yet, I can see one scaremonger like Enoch Powell, right or wrong, the other, not a confident leader, well not on past performance anyway, Recently we have seen Cameron getting promises of large investments from India and China, Country's outside the EU.
The EU will not protect you from the rule of the multinationals, Ivor. On the contrary, if the current top secret EU-US trade negociations lead to an agreement, the multinational;s will rule the EU. Officially.
See http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...u-9779688.html
John
Just read in papers that the Amount of Benefits paid out to all these Immigrants will not be made known to the British Public as they fear it will make people vote against staying in Europe. Lord I dread to think what it must be, and to think our Pensioners would be better off in Prison. Braz
It seems to me it's the old adage of dammed if we do and dammed if we don't. Parliament should come clean over the costs for or against,otherwise how are we mushrooms going to vote in a referendum?
Hi Guy's.
First. John, i fully agree with you re the Multi Nationals, and with regard to this deal with the US, if it is similar to the recently signed Asia, Pacific Deal then that might be the U.S controlling EU trade. which should be avoided at all costs.
Now, i have been doing some digging. How many of you have come across.. E.F.T.A. ( ref...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...de_Association ) this came as a bit of a surprise to me. although i was aware of it i did not know that UK was a founder member in 1960. only leaving to join the EU in 1973. So if we pull out of Europe are we going to snuggle up with EFTA instead.
It appears that the formation of EFTA coincided with our reducing influence in the Commonwealth. so at No Time in the recent past has the UK really been in a ''stand alone '' position. Which raises the Question.. ''Can We as, a now very much minor manufacturing country, be able to Stand Alone''. bear in mind that ''The Special Relationship'' between the UK and the US may no longer be in place. To me this could be the ''Stuff of Nightmares''.
I think there has to be a lot of very serious Questions asked of our politicians with regard to ''what happens, where do we go. after EU'' as the consequences for us mushrooms could be very costly..
ivor
Hello all,
As a point of interest the first family Cameron interviewed, had a mother and 10 children. Now if this is counted as one family how about the fact that if 20,000 similar families are let into the U K we will have 200,000 children 20.000 mothers and if one father is allowed to join them we will have 20,000 fathers, now if we allow the fathers to bring in 3 wives this total comes to 280,000 people. I have not heard what Obama thinks of this fact which is just as well because the U S Senate does not ask the British public to comment on how the U S of A is run, the American policy which led to the start of the THE AMERICAN WAR OF INDEPENDENCE is "No representation no taxes" the The E U are running two parliaments Brussels and Strasbourg and move all the kit and caboodle every time they move offices. Now for the Common Agriculture Market the C A P takes 150 billion Euros to run. Of this princely sum France gets 17% The U K gets 7% as a point of interest the total Eu wage bill comes out of this pot as well not bad for an UNELECTED ASSEMBLY, the U K contribute 55 million EUROS a day to be able to be PARTNER OF THE E U. The E U has never had it's statements of accounts written off in 20 years this is an illegal form of accountancy. Now we come to the reason why the EUROPHILES in the U K Parliament like the E U. The E U cover over 78% of our laws and way of life, so taking this to it,s logical conclusion it means that our whole form of governance from The house of commons and the upper house only do 22% of the work that is done on the U K.s behalf but still get the same money (WAGES) for a lot less work. The U K has the second largest form of government in the world beaten only by CHINA a country of some 1,2 billion people. We have over 800 in the house of Lords and only about 380 seats
The house of commons have 350, Wales have 30 seats in the Welsh Senate for some 3 million people, so how about if we stay in E U cut all our parliamentarians by 78% with a suitable reduction in their wages If any trouble occurs in Germany or France why can they alter or stop it with out a full E U meeting to ratify their actions which thee U K cannot manage to do. PRO BONO PUBLICO, regards R B D
Hi.
Don, an interesting post but you are doing the same as the politicians. you quote a possible figure of about 250.000 Dependents. I am ignoring the wage earners for the minute. This is a lot of potential for the need for financial support.But you are not taking into account the 150.000 Emigrating from the UK per year, or the roughly 500,000 deaths per year which in recent years has Exceeded the Birth Rate. Immigration (legal) runs at about 250,000 so the actual population level doesn't vary a great deal. The Problem is Jobs. the Unemployed figure for 3 months to Oct 15 is 1.71 Million.with probably 500,000 job vacancies. it does not need a spin doctor to realize that at least 1,000,000 people are Not going to get a job.a large Number of the Unemployed would be Worse off financially if they took a job, which is totally ridiculous, But these Low Paid Jobs will be filled by your 20,000 migrants because the wage level for them is good.
But this is Not the Fault of the EU. History tells us the real fault. Don , you must be aware of what happened in the 1950's. as a result of WW2 the Male population of the UK was not sufficient to fill the jobs so what did the Government do.They encouraged Immigration from the Caribbean. this is where the problem began. these people would work for a lot less than UK workers. because of their life style, they were even able to send money home. This culture of Low wages has continued ever since especially in the Railway industry and the NHS.
which is one of the reasons that the NHS is in difficulties.
ivor
Hello every one and Ivor,
You are right about the West Indian migrants. The men were wanted to drive the buses the distaff side were required to work in our N H S service. These people had a hard initiation to the U K. Now Turkey was expected to be able to join the E U in a decade or so. The population of Turkey is 72,907, 000 people. Turkey as a land mass is also according to 2 sources 95 % or even 87% as being in Asia. Turkey is 99% Muslim.Soon the most wisest teacher will be unable to sort out where Asia begins and Europe ends. Can we expect to see Russia relocated as a European classification soon.?????
Regards to all R B D
Hi all.
Err, Don. have a look at this map. http://www.diercke.com/kartenansicht...469&kartennr=1
prior to 1914 Russia was part of Europe. I was aware of this as at one time before we sold our house i collected old School Atlases.Fascinating things. especially the early ones..
ivor
Think the special relationship will still exist only because the yanks know our troops are the only ones in NATO they can rely on
I am still undecided on this thinking that I would watch the programmes coming on TV so I sat down to watch the PM on sky last night I listen to what I could when the sky presenter and Cameron insisted on talking over each other then waited for their chosen audience to ask their questions what a waste of time.One of the questions asked was would Boris Johnson make a good PM can someone tell me what's that got to do with staying in or out of eu followed by another question by a lady about bursaries again what's that got to do with the Eu.What a waste of time
Hello all, okay here are my little reasons for leaving the EU but I think the remains will win the day thanks to large numbers of migrants we have long waiting time to see a doctor I think MPs jump the queue we have long waiting for our hospitals our MPs jump the queue our schools are at bursting point our children and grandchildrens education is suffering long term our MPs children jump the queue and go private we send far to much money in family allowance abroard why will it be hard out side the EU well yes can or will we survive out side the EU yes I think we will have a better future out side the EU our children and grandchildren will have better futures out side the EU at the end of a hard transition just saying is all thanks
I have listened to many of the arguments, from politicians, trade experts, fiscal experts to small business owners and farmers. They all have views that they see as being the result of a Brexit. They differ, so who is right, who is wrong? One thing is clear, the EU has become an institution that is unregulated, unconstitutional, overbearing and autocratic. They are unwilling to change/reform and dismiss every effort to get them to do so.
This "Powerhouse" is not what the original plan for European unity was about, because it has lost its way by having literally no one to answer to. In short, it has become a dictatorship albeit by a group rather than an single individual. If we are truly a Democracy, the EU should not exist in its current form and the sooner it is either reformed or disbanded the better.
I hear the argument, that somehow we will be the pariahs of Europe if we leave. I don't believe it. Indeed I believe that should we vote to leave, the French and indeed the Germans (who are already making noises) will seek their own referendum. Our leaving whilst causing us some discomfort in the short term, may lead to the reform of the EU/common market, that in principle, I am in favour of. If not, it may just be the end of it altogether.
Of all the problems and reasons for in and out, for me it is a question of returning to a proper democracy, where those who govern whether here or in the EU, are answerable to the people.
Thanks Gwyn,
An excellent precis of why I feel I need to vote out. Over the last few days I've been mulling over the potential pitfalls of Brexit for my daughters and grandchildren, knowing my gut-feeling was to walk away, but with potential to bottle it on referendum day and vote "In". But you're so right, this grouping is not what we joined, although Heath and his cohorts knew it, they never told the voting public, who blithely believed it was just a trading group. In some ways it's a little like Fifa. Probably corrupt and unaccountable. Ultimately it's controlled by Germany and France, a good example is the crazy situation where the EU upsticks every 6 months between Strasbourg and Brussels, clearly a huge waste of money, but to stop it would require a treaty change and France would never agree. A small aspect perhaps, but replicated in other areas of the EU.
I think an "out" vote will cause a massive of re-assesment of the EU and potentially it might actually become something that the British public would support and respect.
My final point..Cameron, a man without a political ethos in his body, he has no real hard and fast views on anything….he's all PR and craves power and he's hugely misjudged this referendum. Why would any leader offer his people the option to vote for war, recession, job losses, and all the other plagues that are apparently coming our way on the 24th June if we vote out. Especially as 6 months previous he claimed he was an "Undecided" but waiting to see how his so-called renegotiation went. Obviously because his initial strategy was flawed, he never thought the vote would happen…like everyone else he thought Labour would get in at the last election. He's been exposed as a political lightweight, who is only good at PM's Questions. He's finished.
Agree with what you say Al saw the BBC programme are we better in then out could not believe it when they said about the upping of sticks between Strasbourg and Brussels costs £154 million a year.Anyway sat down watched Grove on sky last night thought he came across better then the other idiot the night before therefore I will be voting out on the 23rd.They keep mentioning that Europe is a big trading block 500 million people but the commonwealth with whom we have strong links is 2billion strong and if Europe imposes trade tariffs on our goods we just do the same to theirs and as regards the European arrest warrants well it's works both ways if they won't give us someone then when they won't someone off us they can go and whistle.Sorry for getting on my soapbox but I feel a lot better now
Out for me -simple as. The EU are scared that we will leave and rightly so, they have more to lose
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1
And which PMQ was it that Cameron was good at? I thought I watched them all but must have missed one!
In fairness he's easily been better than Millband or Corbyn….Sitting targets perhaps, but you get my point.
What puzzles me is that the Scottish National Party want to break away from London, (on the same Island) and run the Country under their own democratically elected Leader, the same can be said of Plaid Cymru, both party's hate to be governed by Westminster citing the fact that neither Country voted for this Tory Government and yet both party's are shouting from the rooftops to stay in the E.U. not only they have not been given a vote to elect the commissioners who has the final say on E.U. decisions I bet they cant name any, they hate a democratically elected government in the UK, and welcome the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, We in Wales do have a handout from the E.U. because we are a poor Nation, nothing to be proud of but you can bet your bottom Dollar that as soon as the poorer Eastern block Countries start knocking at the door there will be no more crumbs to share out, and you can shout from the rooftops or the top of Snowdon, all you will hear is Non, Non, Non, or Nein, Nein, Nein, better to opt out and fight for some crumbs on home soil, this is our last chance, and please Carwyn Jones, you don’t speak for all of us when you say that Wales want to remain in Europe.
hi folks.
I am keeping well away from this discussion. Mostly. But, there are times when stuff needs possibly Correcting. Bri, you mention 'crumbs' the following link is from''The Welsh Government'' and makes interesting reading. If these figures are 'crumbs' then i would not mind a few myself.
http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en
ivor
Maybe I was a bit harsh on the amount of benefits we in Wales get back from Europe, I believe that the UK puts in 8.5 Billion a year, and according to The Welsh Government’s heading on Ivor’s link we receive £500 million back in European funds annually, so that leaves 8 Billion so I’ll re-phrase my sentence and say that “We in Wales should be grateful for the small piece of cake that we receive back from Europe each year”.
Frankly doubt there would be a motorway in Wales without EU funding and no dual carriageway to Carmarthen.
There is no certainty that any of the money Wales is allocated by virtue of EU policies would get allocated when "control" returns to England. This goes for scientific research in the universities, for farmers, and for infrastructure.
To those who believe the stories about EU being undemocratic I would say that it is a lot more democratic than Brexiteers admit. All important decisions are taken by the Council of Ministers in which Britain has a veto. Of the decisions put to a vote in the last 15 years, UK voted with the majority over 9 times out of 10. The times UK voted against the majority was to protect banker bonuses and stop money being spent on science and infrastructure (2012). In addition to the Council there is a democratically elected Parliament tasked to improve legislative proposals - hardly the fault of EU that UK sends a lot of parliamentarians to Brussels who never make a contribution, preferring to sound off about pigs at the trough.
Good luck making up your minds. It is simply tragic how politicians and media are spreading so many falsehoods.
Take on board what you say Chris and I have been doing a hell of a lot of reading over the last few days and it's certainly an eye opener The common market as was when we joined was for trade purposes and I have no problem with that but now it's gone beyond that and I have no wish to belong to a United States of Europe.I am afraid that those in charge of the EU don't like us one of the articles I read was from a MEP not Uk who stated that any thing put forward by the UK will go nowhere Then I see today that two ex PMs are warning against leaving and that's rich from a bloke that took us into a war with a pack of lies and the other one was so weak and gutless