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So today, more than a year after taking over from the UK forces, the last US military will began the withdrawal and finally leave Iraq.
I wonder how long before the Iraqi's implode? Or am I being too cynical?
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4521125,00.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ...976765343.html
I think that you are spot on , time will tell .
I think you are spot on Sharon. I believe history shows us that all countries that have the "Tribal" systems suffer the same fate after occupation or getting independence. The African nations are an excellent example and even in Europe with the break up of the former Yugoslavia, they returned to their tribal ways as soon as the Russian boot was lifted of their necks. The Yanks kicked out the British then kicked lumps out of each other for a time. I suppose Great Britain falls into the same category but our tribal differences are now settled in a more civilized way...we all try to stuff the English at Rugby. I'm afraid some races still believe in the law of the jungle...the strongest survive.
Exactly.
Typically, the races who emigrate and establish greater population in larger countries such as the US and the UK, tend to build their own insular communities within certain areas of major cities. Within these areas the "tribal" law remains intact and the battle to establish legal ascendency begins for the law enforcement and health organisations. Wherever a majority race of a particular culture - esp religiously driven cultures - settles down, they will rarely adhere to the laws of the land that isn't their own. So why should they follow new laws their own country?
Which is why I think Iraq will eventually revert and become a threat to themselves, the uneducated unfortunately outweigh the educated and imo are a danger to their country's progress.
The "US Army" may be leaving as the headlines are putting it, but will still be in Iraq.... approx 50,000 so called "Special Advisors" (Special Forces) will remain and maybe 50,000 "Contractors" of which many will be ex Special Forces/Regs no doubt. Sometimes us so called "civilised" countries should just stay out of other peoples business (ok, it was Bush/Oil & 9/11 this time). That is not to say we shouldn't offer help etc to suppressed peoples, of course we should. Iraq/Afghanistan will never have a true Democracy as the populations there vote not by Manifesto's but by which Religion the candidate is ie Tribalism. Iraq will go back to how it was before. Some Dictator takes over, US/NATO will back him with Arms & cash then when he gets out of line we will invade AGAIN!
Heap, interesting points however when you refer to a "true democracy", what exactly is that. You mention tribal voting instead of manifesto, well look at our democracy is it not similar. There are those in this country who would not consider voting for anyone other than the Labour Party purely because it is the party the family has voted for since time begun and to change is unthinkable regardless of manifesto or previous form come to that. The difference is that these people come from all of our tribes (Welsh, Scottish, N. Irish and the other lot) so perhaps that is what unites us as a nation.
Your point about keeping out of other peoples business is a valid one however, some might argue that if we stuck our noses in sooner, WW2 may not have lasted as long as it did. (when I say we, I include the States and other european countries) Unfortunatley everything is running out on this planet so every big player country is setting out its stall to ensure their access to it. Whether it be oil or mineral reserves (Falklands) you can be assured noses will still be getting stuck in and if a suppressed people are liberated along the way, the better it looks when the Government seeks the support of the nation. I think you are right about re-invasion if the present regime does not play ball, particularly with the Yanks. Of course we dont stick our noses into the affairs of the African nations (ZIMBABWE) possibly because we have already stripped that continent bare and to go in for the Diamonds may be a little too obvious.
Oh! Gwyn you've got me on a topic I really like to deliberate over....democracy!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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If we take the word in it's literal meaning demos....of the people (Greek), then you could argue that any system tribal or otherwise that involves people deliberating then democracy does exist whatever the circumstances are. However, as "civilisation” has evolved democracy has come to mean much more. In those early Grecian days demos meant men of high birth being able to vote and Plato and Aristotle wrote volumes on this.<o:p></o:p>
I suppose what I'm getting at is to agree with the sentiment expressed as we cannot impose western European political models on a tribal system be it in Iraq or indeed in Afghanistan or Pakistan and expect these ancient tribal peoples to submit to our norms and values, that's why there will always be wars because there is a clash of civilisations.<o:p></o:p>
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Sorry for the political theory rant but I find this subject fascinating to study but the outcomes very unpalatable and difficult to swallow!!<o:p></o:p>
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Hingey<o:p></o:p>
After nearly 4 years in this stinking place (I am currently located in a small compound just outside the Basrah COB)..I can assure you the following:
1. Theres no democracy, never has been and never will. The locals are still asking what has changed...the majority even want a Saddam figure again. He may have been a dictator....but at least he made sure every one had electricity, free medical care, top tier Hospitals, no terrorism, no weapons of mass destruction and kept the Iranians from flexing their muscles.
2. The US are ending military operations but not pulling out(thats why I have seen more MRAPS on the roads this past week than ever before) the Military left behind are more of an advisory team....of 50,000...to over sea the rebuilding and layout of local infrastructure such as Hospitals, local immenities. The way I see it...its a strategic location for 'Operation Iran Freedom'.
3. In 7 years...theres been no change at all...The Iraqi Army have gone into their typical Arab "We are better than you" attitude and have started to resemble the cast of a Rambo films with bandans, knives, knee pads all over the place and more magazine pouches than you could ever fill.....i like the way they weld 12.7mm onto a single steel pole on the back of a pick up.......
4. The Iraqi Police have gone back to their old ways.....bribary at check points, tribal fighting, more EFPs/IEDs than ever before....and dressing like an extra from Saturday night fever.
Iraq....its a dying place....thats going to be sucked dry of all its oil within 20 years...and then they can fight and kill each other off for what ever is left........
Oh..and to make it worse...the Yanks are closing down the Echos....because they refuse to pay 20% to the Yanks....
15 days to go and im home...........................................
Stu,Quote:
Originally Posted by stu reed
Based on what you are saying, (and you obviously know more about the place than most of us), I wonder what it was all for anyway!