Joining the Euro

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Noticed this morning that the pound is down to 1 euro 10 cents on the exchanges. How long do you think it will be before it is announced that Britain will be left behind if we dont join and are we near to the figure already agreed for them to let us in? Cynical, me? Well maybe a little.

[Paul Hinge]

Interesting post Gwyn....didn't have you down as pro-euro (ha ha).
Those in the know would say that this rate is not the best for us we need to go in when 1 euro is worh about 78p. That would give us the best advantage.
With it fluctuating between 87 and 89p we would be shooting ourselves in the foot if anyone decided that now was the time to go in.

Hingey:winker:

[sixties]

Well said Paul, just a blimp.

[griff029]

greetings,

I am staggered that there is any discussion of when we go in and what is best financially. There should be no question of us going in at all. We would lose any independence and hand over all powers to Brussels if we no longer have control over fiscal matters. Look at how the Irish were stitched up by their own traitorous leaders. They had a referendum and because it didn't go the way the leaders wanted, they had another. What kind of referendum is that??? Mind you at least they got one which is more than we did when the socialist liars in Downing street promised us one. You mean they didn't mean it?? Surely not.
For those who advocate joining the Euro, I would say the best time is when the Euro is equal to 30 pieces of silver.

griff029

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Griff I dont know why you are "staggered" that a discussion should take place about something that is current affairs and has a distinct possibility of actually taking place. Like it or loathe it, we are a small island (surrounded by the Euro zone) and our days of being the best ship builders, car makers and exporters of Steel are well and truly over. Accepting the possibility does not make anyone less patriotic or less proud of being British. Personally I have always been against the european union simply because I feel that the rest of them do not play by "their" rules whilst this country does and because of that some countries (especially France) actually openly mock us for being so gullible. As you say at least the Irish got a vote. Our so-called Democracy does not even allow for that! When it comes, and it will come ,we will have nothing to do but accept and get on with it.

[Paul Hinge]

Gwyn, I have to nail my colurs to the mast! I'm pro-Europe and for very good reasons. However, I do have some very real reservations about the size it has grown too now.
As I know you are aware, the whole rationale for the EEC was to create economic cooperation between counties that have been constantly at war with each other for centuries. This level of cooperation between countries was fine when there were 6 then 9 then 12 nationstates involved. The cracks realy started to appear when it went to 15. The European Comission (the un-elected civil service headed up by political commissioners appointed by member-states had/has grown to big for its boots. There were also many problems with the monitoring and auditing of accounts both within the EEC?EU and with member states. Now we have seen a huge increase in the size of the EU 29 member states and a multitude of derogations (allowing a nation state not to do something the others have agreed to do) we have now got a multi tier and a a multi-speed Europe that I feel as do many others is to big a beast to control. The primary driver for the creation was security through economic cooperation and I like those who have expressed their opinion feel that it's lost the plot!
Where do we go from here?
The UK economy is so linked into the EU it would be financial suicide to get out now (60% approx) of our business is with our European partners. We are stuggling to compete at the moment with our EU partners as the Euro is a much stronger currency than the £. Therefore, we are losing out on competitiveness and on the exchange rate.
So I leave it up to you to decided. For me security is fundemental to peace and that's why I'm pro-european.

Hingey

[jungle1810]

Hello Hingey et al,
Re joining the euro (that is eu union not the currency). I take Pauls point about the size of the European market. At present it is well nigh impossible to seperate Europe from Asia if you consider who is in the market at present and those waiting in the wings to join the so called "Gravy Train"Turkey etc. And most of the people running Europe are un-elected and combine this with the chance of Tony Blair becoming the new Preident.Plus the fact that America has a population of some 300, million people and yet America has less people running it than the UK. In the UK we have some 647 Members of Parliament, the House of Lords has about another 600 or so.I do not know the number of un-elected members that are in Strasbourg and else where who are running the Market. If you also take into account that 85%of our legislation is mandatory and emanates from Europe why do we need the present profligate system? Another point to take on board is metrication, we have a situation that is putting some 64 pence a litre on petrol duty ( 4.5 Litres to a Gallon) That is equivalent to £2-85 tax on a gallon of petrol and that is topped by having to pay VAT on your total charge. the Chancellor rakes in £1.3 million pound a day on all fuel duty. Who is watching the watchers. And last but not least the Lisbon Treaty was supposed to be different from all previous diktats but in truth is loaded on the side of the pro Europeans, The Lisbon treaty has been rejected by 3 nations France Holland and Ireland, that should have been the death knell for it Yet more referendas were given until the European Mandarins had the result they wanted. Why are the United Kingdom being denied the referendum promised by the Labour Government. Just what exactly does the world of politics not understand about the word NO. In conclusion the European Market was kept running even after failing to have it's accounts passed for some 10 years or more, What chance would any other business stand of gettind away with this sort of mal-practice.
Regards RBD

[griff029]

greetings all. regarding my use of the word staggered. Not really staggered as in surprised, more staggered as in a feeling of inevitability about the whole thing. The Common Market was a good idea. If any country should know the benefits of trading partners it is this one. It has, however, got completely out of hand as already pointed out. One problem is that there are too many people who can't remember the pre EU world. They just assume that it has always been there and is a fact of life. The idea of countries just not being in it doesn't occur to anyone. A referendum would be pointless anyway. The question phrasing would be such that both options would actually mean yes.
Surely the very fact that the Irish leaders totally refused to accept the decision of their own people on the instructions of Brussels should put people off to the extent that each successive referenda would even more NOs than before. Not long before national leaders are no longer elected but are employees of Brussels.
Cameron has also promised a referendum but there seems to be a problem with getting out of the Lisbon Treaty once it has been ratified. Why on earth would anyone want to be a part of an organisation that so blatantly removes national freedom?
If our opinions count for nought and our freedom is removed then what? I hate to say this but I am beginning to understand why the IRA used violence when they couldn't get anywhere. They obviously felt like me - banging my head against a brick wall.

[Paul Hinge]

Annwyl Gyfeillion/Dear All

There was one very, very important point I forgot to mention when it comes to devolving soverignty to the EU......that its our politicians in Westminster who have the power of VETO. If one member state says NO on matters that are of national importance i.e. Areas of competence that have not been ceeded such as Security,Taxation (income Tax)etc, then the proposal, including the Lisbon Treaty collapses.

THE EURO

I and many other pro-europeans would point out that with the Euro yesterday versus the £'s exchange rate of 92.5p it is not acceptable to the UK to enter this currency at present;it needs to be between 75-78p for us to have any benefit from entering.
We lost out on a gilt edge chance of entering 4-5 years ago when the rates were stable and favourable.

But let's remember.

The UK is still in recession the Euro Zone members are already out of it and growing!

Cofion cynnes

Hingey:smile:

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Very interesting and educating points gents, thankyou. I have to say Hingy that I agree that trade with equal partners is healthy and was an idea that in general, worked. However as I pointed out some countries followed the rules, ( for example fishing/milk quotas) and others didn't. Rebates appeared to be given to other member countries whist the UK had to fight for them. Why? You say that you a Pro-European, yet you are worried about the way it is growing with smaller/new European countries joining. How can you be Pro something that you are not happy with? The power of VETO. Seriously, how effective do you think that will be? As has been pointed out countries said NO to the Lisbon treaty, therefore it should be it a NO. Is it a NO? NO it is a vote again until they all say YES! Is that Democracy? For me it is more Tyranny and that is what worries me. The Warsaw Pact was a confederation of countries. Did they all share equal wealth and opportunities?

[Paul Hinge]

Gwyn
This is becoming a very interesting debate!
Yes there are problems and that's my worry. even when we were 9 nation-states in the EEC we had trouble policing the law so at 29 we have even less chance. I can still be pro the concept but still have reservations on how it's managed! A VETO is a VETO. You and I cannot dictate to member states how they ratify at teaty or not. Ireland knows that they rely soley on the EU for their economic viability so opting out of any treaty will have a detrimental effect on their trade. They voted NO last year as the anti-abortion lobby etc. played the card that the EU would insist on abortion becoming law in Ireland which of course was total bu**s**t. If we were in a conferderation such as the Warsaw Pact we wouldn't even had a vote so democracy at some level is being exercised.

Hingey

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Hingey, we do not have a vote which is one of my points, and a Democracy at "some level" is not Democracy. Great Britain is supposed to be a Democratic country not a country with "some level" of democracy. The European union is fast becoming (in my opinion) less of a democracy and more of a Tyranical State. Look how much we have had to change our culture already, stupid laws that cannot be policed like the changes to metric in shops. Brussels telling us that this tiny island can and should keep taking immigrants even though our health service, schools, housing and other services cannot cope. The fact is, we are different people from different cultures and human nature dictates that one or more of the stronger cultures will push for their own to be accepted and adopted. Not the ideal recipe for the peace that you talk of. I dont trust our own politicians right now (for well documented reasons) let alone want my future and the future of this country be decided by a bunch of faceless foreign ones. My main grouch however remains the same and that is, WE ARE NOT BEING ASKED, and we want to be!

[Paul Hinge]

Gwyn

I agreee with you entirely about being asked via a referendum. The problem is the 2 political parties that have given away our soverignty to the EU namely the Tories and Labour, both will not give the country a choice. Brown has already signed the Lisbun Treaty and Cameron is playing politics saying that if its not ratified before the election they will hold a referendum whilst behind the scenes his party are applying pressure on the Cech's as they did on the Pole's to sign asap. Please don't believe the rhetoric in the press they want to keep the status quo as they thirst for power!

Hingey

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Hingey

As far as the press and all politicians go, I am the original "Doubting Thomas" I can assure you. I believe in what I can see. So far, I have seen one man ignore the wants of this country -fact. I now wait to see if the other man speaks with fork tongue as you suggest - Spin, not yet fact. I know very little about politics which probably puts me in the majority in this country. I therefore have to put my trust in those, who do know what they are about and hope (yes hope) they do their best for us. Most of all I want a PM and a Government who are not afraid of making and enforcing our own Laws to deal with the crime, from its lowest form (anti-social behaviour - the blight of our streets) to illegal immigration and terrorism. The rights of criminals has become more important than those of the victim thanks to the interference from countries who do not suffer from the same crime problems that we do. Human rights and political correctness has gone mad in this country, due purely to the interference from Europe. That in a nutshell is basically why I am not Pro-European.

[Paul Hinge]

Hi Gwyn

Can I share with you some of your concerns especially at what is termed lower scale criminal acts.
My 3 children all work in frontline public service eldest Justin (ex RWF as well) is a Policeman and he'll tell you crim's and kids today have no regard for the law whatsoever because the sanctions are not rigid enough.
The other two work in the A&E department of a General Hospital and they see and have to deal with the problems society has brought upon itself day in day out, verbal abuse and physical abuse, they have had to be trained in how to restrain such cases because the NHS cannot afford to employ security 24/7.Have you heard the like of it?
I see Paul Nash has been looking in on this thread. He works in the Prison Service. Is it true Paul these prisoners have flat screen televisions, computers and play stations to pas away the time whilst they are serving their sentences. A bit of time in the nick with Ravenhill might be something to consider!

Every 2 years the Justice services i.e. Courts and Probation service have to come and tedll us as councillors why and how the dole out sentences. This year they went away under no illusion that we were,speaking on behalf of the communities we represent not happy at all with the leniency of sentences being given out. The Justice system is supposed to be there to provide in the first place a credible punishment to offenders and the feeling on the ground is they don't. This has been endemic in society since the 1970's.
We need to teach children from a very young age self respect and to respect others and I'm afraid that is sadly lacking in the society we live in.
It's not EU law that has done this it's our politicans it's the way they have fashioned society.
One last point,there is a case I know of where a practising senior magistrate has broken a law and has been sent for prosecution and the system thought it could protect one of its own by placing the case out of county and region to be heard. Well as you can imagine someone who knows someone whose a friend of a person who saw this being listed has brought it to the public's attention. What hope have we got in society today when things like that occur. If you or I did it we'd be hung drawn and quartered by the system. Which is what I hope will happen to this Magistrate.

Hingey

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Hingy

Your point time spent with Nick Ravenhill in the slammer is a good one and I am in total agreement. That though is the point. We are at the moment, treating offenders with kid gloves simply because of the European Human Rights Charter/Bill which in my opinion and that of many in this country goes to far, hence the outcry for our own Human Rights Bill. Basic Human Rights are necessary for obvious reasons, but they do conflict. For example I have the right to enjoy a peaceful life in my own home - the young have the right to move freely and enjoy themselves. When a group of ten or twelve of them camp outside my front gate making a racket (no damage) so loud that I cannot hear my own television who has the priority of "Rights". The Police cannot even answer that question right now, so the complexities of how a prisoner should be treated under European legislation must be mind boggling and that possibly is why prisoners (alledgedly) are treated so well in prison.

[Paul Hinge]

Gwyn
I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on something!

The Human Rights Act is really something else. this government was warned time and time again about its interpretation within the law courts and they chose to ignore the advice.

I'm shocked that the police would take that attitude regarding those kids. You quite eloquently pointed out the law as it stands states you are allowed to enjoy your home and it surrounds without interference from others. They are undertaking anti-social behaviour and the police have many powers from moving them on to arrest to deal with these kids.

My eldest (policeman) deals with this type of issue on a day-to-day basis and as we have both stated it has come about because society has been allowed to deteriorate to this level where respect for others is just not COOL!

Hingey