uncle that died in normandy

[the welsh wizard]

Hi guys,
My uncle served with the royal welch during ww2 & lost his life in Normandy. I am now trying to get some info on how to find out where he is buried etc, a close friend is going there soon & hes going to try & locate it & take pics etc for me.
Any sort of info on this would be much appreciated, thank you.

the welsh wizard (joskin)

[ap1]

Hi Joskin,

Go into the reserach articles area of the site. There is a complete list of all the RWF WW2 dead located in there. With that info you can then go to the CWGC Website and locate the grave location....

As a matter of interest what was his details, Im back from Spain on the 4th Oct, and will have a look in Red Dragon and hopefully tell you what action he was killed at. Unless of course any another member can assist..HINT HINT!!!!!

[the welsh wizard]

thanks for that ap, unfortunately ive evry little info on him, were a very small family & spread all over the place, ive a brother who lives in germany who is also trying to get some info, he served with the artillery. my uncles name was William Roberts & he was from

3 Lon Groes,
Gaerwen,
Anglesey
Again cheers for that bit of info, i will let you know how i got on.

[5haron]

Hiya WW, we can try the war graves web-site and see if he's recorded in their DB.
If this is successful, it;ll give you the exact location of the grave.
I'll have a look now.
All the best

Sharon.

[5haron]

Casualty Details
Name: ROBERTS, WILLIAM
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Fusilier
Regiment/Service: Royal Welch Fusiliers
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Age: 21
Date of Death: 16/05/1940
Service No: 4197091
Additional information: Son of Joseph and Hannah Roberts.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Column 53.
Memorial: DUNKIRK MEMORIAL

----------------------------------------------

Do these details add up WW?

[the welsh wizard]

Sharon your a star, that is my uncle, im feeling quite emotional about it all.
Cant thank you enough, im hoping to get over there myself, i"ll keep yous all posted,
Again diolch yn fawr ( thank you very much)

Dave (joskin)

[5haron]

Croeso, You're very welcome Dave, send us a piccie when you visit.

It's a very serene and powerful place, anyone with an interest in militaria should try to go there at least once. I totally understand the emotion, whenever I log into the Commonwealth War Graves site I feel like having a good cry.

Good luck,

Shar x

[ap1]

Thanks Sha, What we need now is for someone with Red Dragon to have a shufti at the 16th May 1940, its not an exact science, but at least it will tell you what the Bn was up to on the day that he died. For your info Dave, the 1st Bn took a hammering at Dunkirk. The vast majority of the Bn either being Killed, wounded or captured. Only a small number managed to get off the beach and back to Dover. However within 2 years they were re-constituted, shipped off to Asia and fought at Donbaik and Kohima as part of the 14th Army.

[the welsh wizard]

Thank you again Ap, the work you do on here is really fantastic, i cant thank yourself & Sharon enough. Keep up the good work, & i will keep yous all posted.

Dave.

[ap1]

195Hi Dave,

It looks like he was killed in a defensive position just outside Ottenbourg; which is a hilltop village in Belgium. The Germans had started their blitzkreig on the 9th May and by the 14th May the dutch had surrendered. The Bn was positioned west of the River Dyle overlooking it, with Bn HQ in the centre of Ottenbourg, basically waiting, dug in, for the enemy to pitch up on the far river bank.(See attached map)

By the evening of the 14th the Germans had reached the eastern bank of the River Dyle, the 1st Bn were still dug in on the other side. Most of the Bn were young men, who had never experienced combat before, but would certainly have been aware of the experiences of their fathers in the Great War. The dread that they must have felt as they waited..................

The enemy launched their attack early morning of the 15th. The attacks were stalled by the guys dug in, although A and D Company both suffered heavy casualties from shell and mortar fire. The attacks went on throughout the day, with the enemy launching a second sustained assault in the evening, but again the Battalion managed to repulse it. It was then followed by a heavy bombardment. This time much of the RWF casualties also included guys from C Company. Casualties were evacuated back into the village of Ottenbourg, by stretcher bearers, who had to carry the wounded up a long hill. There would have been a casualty dressing station located within the village, you may be able to locate that.

That night at 2200hrs the Bn received unexpected orders to withdraw to the River Escaut. The Bn had done a sterling job, but were unaware that the enemy had managed to break through French defences further south, and in their present position were in danger of encirclement. The Bn clearly had intended to continue fighting, and the withdrawel order was a major surprise.

Regimental Records notes that "The withdrawal to the Escaut Line was completed in good order and without loss".

That last sentence indicates to me that William was killed as a result of that defensive battle that took place at Ottenbourg. Probably as a member of A, D or C Coy. The map attached shows the defensive positions on the 15th, and those 3 companies seem most placed in harms way. With that map it would be feasable to visit the Ottenbourg location, and look over the ground that William fought to hold. Each of the blue circles represents a platoon position. I should also point out that prior to the 15th May the Bn had not been involved in any combat, which again narrows down the death location. The subsequent withdrawal was completed by foot. I would be very surprised if the seriously injured would have been moved from the battalion dressing station. The frontline transport was at least 12 miles away.


The source of this information was Red Dragon, which was published in the early 1960's. I hope this has been of some use.

[the welsh wizard]

Well ap, youve gone & done it again & far exceeded anything that i expected. I just cannot thank you enough for all your hard work & your enthusiasm in finding all this information for me & im absolutely thrilled, exited but also sad, & its made me more determined than ever to visit, ive a brother in germany whome i will be sharing all this valuable info.
Anyway thank you very much again & i will certainly keep you posted.

Many thanks Dave

[ap1]

Thanks Dave,

Its also been a useful exercise for me. This was the first action that the 1st Bn was involved in during WW2 so it is of significance. It is not something I had previously read into, so as a result of your query I know a little more of how the 1st Bn's withdrawal to Dunkirk began. I think some time in the future I may visit this location.

[Bob Lake]

The Regiment has erected a memorial at St Vennant, Pas De Calais, Franc, to those of 1RWF killed during the BEF in 1940.

The Battalion after an arduous retreat from the defensive line of the Dyle, where they first encountered the Germans, were ordered to form part of the defensive perimeter around Dunkirk at the villages of St Venant, Robecq and St Floris where a canal system acted as a natural obstacle to the German's panzers. St Vennant is about 40 miles from Calais just north of the Paris motorway and is easily visited.

The memorial is on the banks of the canal at St Vennant. It was here where the 1st Battalion were eventually overun by the Germans. They were effectively holding off panzers with Bren Guns and rifles, no with artillery support, anti tank weapons or indeed any maps. Many were killed or captured with I think about 280 so getting back to the UK.

An account of the memorial and the events is in the March 1998 'Y Ddraig Goch'

Hugh Sebag-Montefiore recently wrote a book' fight to the last man' about those battalions who were sacrificed in the Dunkirk defensive perimeter to allow the bulk of the BEF to escape. The link to Amazon is below:

Amazon.co.uk: Dunkirk: Fight to the Last Man: Hugh Sebag-Montefiore: Books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dunkirk-Fight-Last-Hugh-Sebag-Montefiore/dp/0141024372/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223453412&sr=1-2)

I have spoken to many of the veterans of those days including Desmond Llewellyn 'the actor who was Q in the Bond Movies' who was a platoon commander with B Coy and was captured at Robecq, dressed a a lock keeper, as he had just swum the canal and was given clothes by the French family at the lockeepers house. The Germans wanted to shoot him as a spy.

The RWF Musem has a personal account of Jack Willes who later was Colonel of the Regiment, he was captured at St Venant and spent his war as a PoW.

There is a french contact, Dominique Le Fevre who lives at St Floris and runs the local history group. He knows just about where every action involving RWF in the area and where most of our guys are buried. The local Mairie (Mayors office) at St Vennant will have his address.

You must get a copy of the 1998 journal which gives quite a lot of detail including a sketch on the cover drawn of the final stand, depicting soldiers running the gauntlet of fire from panzers crossing the canal lock before it was blown.

I hope this helps with your research

warm regards,

Bob

[ap1]

Thanks for that detail Bob,

Im about to fly back to Kabul today, however if any member has a copy of the 1998 journal and could scan the particular page and attach it to this thread, it would be a great help to Dave, and also would help paint a better picture for the rest of us.

Bob I hope all is well with you, and please feel free to contribute to these threads. You have been fortunate to know the WW2 veterans on a personal level, as evidenced in your post, which adds another very welcome dimension.

Thanks again

Al