4188580 JR Gibbins 1RWF - WW2

[allyf]

I have just posted some photos of my Grandad from the 30's and 40's. According to the photos he was in the 1st Battalion Drums. Some of the phots are taken in a studio in Bombay but I would be really interested if anyone has any other information about them or has a clue where some of the others might have been taken.


http://rwf-forum.co.uk/gallery/files/3/7/5/Image7.jpg

This weekend a cousin came round with a parcel for my mother - it was my Grandads flute and what appears to be some dogtags. The flute is black with pewter colored joints and keys but in all the photos I have posted my Grandad seems to be playing the bugle - did the band play flutes, would they have been like this?

The tags are made from hard board or leather (difficult to tell). There is a grey octagonal one and a reddish brown round one. Each is emossed with 4188580 at the top then Pres across the middle and then JR Gibbins (grandads name) at the bottom. Are these his dogtags or something different?

I just added photos of the flute and tags to the gallery in case anyone is interested.

Can anyone tell me anymore?
:-)
ally

[ap1]

Hi Ally,

Welcome to the Forum.

It looks as if your Grandfather had an interesting service with the 1st Bn. In 1940 They were part of the BEF, and the retreat at Dunkirk. Many of the 1st Bn were killed, captured or wounded, but it looks like JR made it back.

The Bombay pictures relate to the Battalions later service in India with the 14th Army(The Forgotten 14th). This would have included the ferocious battles against the Japanese at Donbaik in March 1943 and later at Kohima in mid 1944 and onto Mandalay in 1945, fighting a determined enemy too the death, all the way.

To give some perspective in just one assault at Kohima, the battalion had 5 Officers and 33 Other Ranks killed, with a further 127 men wounded and 24 men missing. Sobering stuff.

I would urge you to obtain a copy of Red Dragon by PK Kemp and John Graves. It is rare and out of print, expect to pay about £45 for a second hand copy. It covers the regiment from 1919-1945, and includes the 1st Battalions fighting in detail.

Now for the good news. Because you have his dogtags, you now know his Army Service Number 4188580 JR Gibbins 1RWF. This means you can apply for his service record from the MOD, it will take many months to arrive but will be worth it. You can download the forms at :

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html#3

If you need anymore help, just ask. Let us know how you get on.

Good Luck

[allyf]

Its a shame my Grandad was never interested in talking about his service, anything we know is just from little comments - he mentioned being in Bombay and Burma and hiding from Japanese snipers, but never mentioned Dunkirk at all.

Will definately have a look at getting his service record.

thanks
:-)

[daibeer]

Hello Mate
I am not a history buff like Al but I was Drum Major 1RWF a few years ago. All Drummers, wether fifers or side drummers were also Buglers. I would be very keen to have copies of the photos for my collection. I wouls also be interested to know the maker of the fife and how many keys if had.
regards
Dai

[allyf]

Dai

Thanks for the info. It is a 6 key fife and have pm'd you re: the photos.

[allyf]

Thanks to those who told me how to get my Grandads service records, they arrived in the post yesterday - not bad I thought they would take much longer than that.

It seems he was in the Fusiliers from 1928 to 1935 and then again under War Office Letter 109/Gen/3971 (AGI.c) from 1939 to 1946 which I assume was a draft letter?

He was posted to:

Home 23/10/28 - 2/7/29
Germany 3/7/29 - 13/10/29
Home 14/10/29 - 19/11/29
India 20/11/29 - 19/12/30
Sudan 20/12/30 - 21/4/32
Home 22/4/32 - 22/10/35
Reserve (I think it says) 23/10/35 - 5/5/39 which was the period between his services.
Home 6/5/39 - 23/9/39
France (I think it says) 24/9/39 - 1/6/40
Home 2/6/40 - 11/4/42
India 12/4/42 - 2/9/44
India 3/9/44
The last entry for India is a separate line with no end date so not sure if he was there until he was demobbed in 46 or not.

He was awarded the 1939 -43 Star, Burma Star, Defence Medal and War Medal 39/45.

I'd quite like to know more, particularly about what campains and whereabouts in the countries he was in he might have been. Wheres the best place to find this out - can anyone help?

TIA
:-)
ally

[ap1]

Great stuff Ally,

Thanks for coming back with an update. Certainly his war service looks like it is with the 1st Bn, he was a lucky man to get back from Dunkirk.

Where to next? Well try and source Red Dragon, which I mentioned in a previous thread. Its out of print, source it in the UK 2nd hand on the net, expect to pay about £45. Try Abebooks first. Also try Amazon. Its a lot of money, but that book really is the companion to your grandathers service record.

It would be good if you can scan some of his war service record and attach them to this thread, we would be looking at Officers/Snco's names etc, with that info we may be able to identify which company he served in within the 1st Bn. This will in turn narrow down specific actions he took part in. As an example on his disciplinary record, if he was charged with a minor military offence, such as "Late on Parade" he would have been dealt with by his company commander, who's name would appear on that conduct sheet. That officers name may appear in Red Dragon.

[allyf]

Yes I remember you recommended Red Dragon, its a lot but will see if I can track down a copy.

I will scan in the records, trouble is they are A3 and so would have to be reduced first which will make them pretty hard to read - and some of them are hard already its not just Drs have bad handwriting! :-)

I would love to know for definite if he was at Dunkirk as he never mentioned it at all, just said about Burma (which isnt in the record) and India.

Thanks again for all your help.

ally

[ap1]

France 24/9/39 - 1/6/40 The main body of the 1st Battalion sailed from Southampton on the 23rd Sept 1939, landing at Cherbourg on the 24th. That confirms that your Grandfather was part of the British Expeditionary Force(BEF). They then basically sat on the Belgian Border, through a miserable winter during the "Phoney War". Things started to change in early May 1940. By about the 15th May the 1st Bn were engaging with the enemy, and so began the fighting withdrawal from Belgium back through France to Dunkirk.

Looking at the Date 1/6/40, your grandfather must have been one of the final group of Royal Welchmen lifted from the Dunkirk Beaches. I quote directly from Red Dragon:

" The brigade column, containing the few remaining men of the Battalion who had escaped from the actions of the Bourne canal, was attacked fiercely from the air during its withdrawal, which became a slow and painful process along roads blocked with abandoned transport. Towards the end all progress was on foot only, with the brigade group finally reaching the beaches on the 30th May. They were taken off(the beach) during the next 2 days(the final day being 1st June), but amongst them were pitifully few belonging to the Battalion. The majority lay dead or wounded in the area of St Venant, where their brilliant defence had held up the enemy for 2 precious days and contributed in no small measure to the safe withdrawal of so many of their comrades in the BEF"


I will cover some of the other dates, over the next few days, between work, if anyone else with a copy of Red Dragon would like to assist...feel free to chip in

[allyf]

Thanks you SO much for that. Its really interesting to find out things he just never spoke about.

I have scanned his military record but the scanner at work will only let me have it as PDF files can I post these here or send them to someone to look at?
:-)
ally

[ap1]

Ally,

The book is on ABE for £30!!


http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=879108163&searchurl=an%3DKemp%26ph%3D2%26sortby%3D3%26tn%3DT he%2BRed%2BDragon

[allyf]

Thanks!

I already bought a copy slightly more (but only a bit) from another book seller on Abe books on Friday - should be here this coming week. Think mine is in better condition to from the description.
:-)

[ap1]

Excellent. I won't spoil your enjoyment of searching for more detail of his service. When you get the book. Look at the 1st Bn notes, where he served and what he was involved in will become more apparent. What I would say is that your Grandfather would have fought at the Battles of Donbaik and also Kohima. Bearing in mind he survived Dunkirk, and these later actions, make his service even more poignant. At Kohima there is a memorial inscribed


" When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say,
For Their Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today"




http://rwf-forum.co.uk/gallery/files/3/kohima_memorial_340x255_771372.jpg


You may be interested in the obituary of the late Reuben Jones which i have attached to this post. Your Grandfathers service and Reubens are very similar, both joined in Oct 1928, Reuben was also in the band, and served in Germany. Before he went off to the 2nd Bn, whilst your Gfather served with the 1st. They would have certainly known each other.

Later they would have served together from 1942 onwards, with the 1st Bn, by now Reuben had left the band and was a Platoon Sgt with B Company, his Platoon Commander was Lt JDN Graves(son of Robert Graves the famous WW1 Poet).

Reubens wife Barbara, is still alive, and is very knowledgeable about Reuben's service.

You may find this article about the Battle of DonBaik of interest http://www.rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=16

[allyf]

Thanks for that, the obit for Reuben Jones was very interesting, as you say he and my Grandad (not my Dad) would inevitably have known each other.

I am still amazed how much he just never mentioned to us. I spoke with my Mother yesterday (his only surviving daughter) and she said he never spoke about his service at all, apart from one or two exciting/amusing stories which I guess he told because they didnt remind him or let on how awful it all must have been.

:-)

[ap1]

Below is an extract of your Grandfather service record Ally. The highlighted area shows he was granted 10 days leave for the period 8 May -17 May 1940. At this stage he was in France. Whilst he was away from his unit, the German assault began, so he may have been in the UK at that point, but would have certainly been recalled immediately back to France.(Assuming he actually managed to cross the channel before the attack commenced).

Note within the same text box, it then shows him Missing(as opposed to AWOL). Rejoining his unit on the 26th May 1940. On suggestion is that he has either failed to leave France or returned to France, and has spent a week or so trying to link back up with 1RWF. Bearing in mind the Germans were in the process of destroying the BEF, and the complete confusion associated with that, your Grandfather would have been one of many 1000's of missing soldiers.


http://rwf-forum.co.uk/gallery/files/3/gibbins2-4.jpg


I have also attached his posting record below for the Far East. It shows him with 1 RWF being promoted, eventually reaching the rank of Cpl whilst in the Far East. It also states he was admitted to hospital whilst in Burma. Some of the other guys may be able to decipher the detail in the left column. It would be interesting to work out what BBRC was?

[allyf]

Al

Thanks so much for the info.

We did know he was in hospital - it was one of the stories he told us though wether the cause is true or not I dont know. As fair as I recall he was in hospital for either a bad back or deli-beli type illness (he mentioned both at various times). Whilst he was in hospital he said he cross stitch embroidered some pinnies and sent them home for my Mum, her sister and my Grandmother - my Mum remembers these pinnies aparently they had them for some time after the war. He also mentioned having to knit his own socks!

:-)

[ap1]

8yrs later……..Today I received this lovely image of JR Gibbins with his wife and child. We now know he was a drummer with 1RWF 28-35. Then rejoined 1RWF in 39, finally leaving in 1945. I'm guessing this pictture is WW2 vintage. What I especially like is that his wife is wearing an RWF Sweetheart brooch.

Merry Xmas

Al

http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4990&stc=1

[welchboy]

What a lovely family photograph, you can see the pride for each other coming through.

[allyeff]

and 4 years in I log back in and see it :D
would it be possible for you to email a copy to me I don’t have this photo in my collection.
How did you get it? How did you kniw it was him, is there anything written on the back? As you say it’s a lovely photo of them. I think the kid is my Aunt.

many thanks
ally

Username was allyf - now allyeff


8yrs later……..Today I received this lovely image of JR Gibbins with his wife and child. We now know he was a drummer with 1RWF 28-35. Then rejoined 1RWF in 39, finally leaving in 1945. I'm guessing this pictture is WW2 vintage. What I especially like is that his wife is wearing an RWF Sweetheart brooch.

Merry Xmas

Al

http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4990&stc=1