View Full Version : Gresford Colliery Disaster - RWF Perished
According to YDG. 27 serving and former members of the regiment perished at Gresford Colliery in Sept 1934.
So far I've managed to identify 12 men……any others tucked away in your databases anywhere? This info will form a small section in Vol 5 RRRWF.
Thanks in advance.
4RWF
Bdsm F Hampson - HQ
Dmr TR Cornwell - HQ
Fus GA Clutton - HQ
Fus A Davies 70 - HQ
Fus M Davies 48 - A Coy
Fus J Parry 82 - A Coy
Fus RT Stevens - B Coy
Former Members:
Sgt John Rowlands MM - ex
Sgt Joseph Archibald - ex
Sgt RE Tittle - ex
Sgt I Jones - ex
Fus Albert(Harry) Ross - ex
Baconwallah
20-05-2015, 09:56
None in mine, Al
John
Another 7 names. Pictures also available on FB.
WH TRoberts.
William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
John Kelsall
Walter Wineyard
John R Parry
Edward Llewelyn Rogers
A joint effort between myself and Richard thus far. 17 in the bag 10 to go:
Confirmed RWF(assumed to be Ex)
William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
Walter Wineyard
Edward Llewelyn Rogers
Confirmed Serving with 4RWF(YDG)
Bdsm F Hampson - HQ
Dmr TR Cornwell - HQ
Fus GA Clutton - HQ
Fus A Davies 70 - HQ
Fus M Davies 48 - A Coy
Fus J Parry 82 - A Coy
Fus RT Stevens - B Coy
Confirmed Former Members:
ex Sgt John Rowlands MM
ex Sgt Joseph Archibald
ex Sgt RE Tittle
ex Sgt I Jones
ex Fus Albert(Harry) Ross
ex Fus WH Roberts.
Needs some help on this one:
"Henry Evan Owens aged 54 of Cunliffe Walk, Garden Village, Wrexham originally from of Bagillt died on 22nd September 1934 in the disaster at Gresford Colliery."
See the poor quality scan of a cert of service below. I've almost convinced myself it says Royal Welsh Fusiliers…..I'm slightly perturbed that it is issued in London District.
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3832&stc=1
Al
I can't read it properly but from what I can he is a Royal Defence Corps man number 30617 or similar in 327 or similar PC (Protection Coy). The RDC in its entirity were admined by London area TF. The route to being RDC (bar being enlisted straight in after they were formed) is
TF (National Reserve)
TF Battalion (in this case 4th)
Supernumeray Coy, TF Bn
RDC
Where does the name Henry come from?
Hywyn
edit: I see now that it's the Colliery sheet that gives the Henry bit.
I had a dabble at the RDC some time ago. Looking at my notes now I see that I determined that RDC numbers 30553 to 30643 were men from No 1 Supernumerary Coy 5th Bn and that they were 323 Protection Coy. (Don't ask me to explain how I arrived at this!!)On that Cert am I seeing his number as 30617 and the Prot Coy is 323?
I presume the Cunliffe Walk address is a 1934 address. He might previously be from 5th Bn catchment area.
Where's the Cert of Service from?
edited
Further edit. Doh! I see you already say he is from Bagillt. I'm slipping!
His papers are in Service Records under his Supernumerary Coy number of 20066. Address of Chirk Cottage, The Boot, Bagillt.
Which Page/Group are they to be found on FB?
Back of the net! Well done Hywyn, great work. Don't really know much about this mob. So is he or was he RWF. In other words, does he get included on the RWF Death List as an ex member of the regiment? I'm currently not getting great internet (in the van at Carnforth), so Ancestry's a little difficult.
Gresford Disaster NWMAT. Appreciate it if you can have a look at a few other possibles on there. Mainly guys in uniform with no visible badges…but full names etc.
I'm not hundred percent whether he had an actual 5th Bn number when he enlisted 1915. The number 650 shown there might be his National Reserve number. However, his attestment shows he had previous servicve in 2nd VB RWF so, yes, he makes the list I'd say.
Shall I pitch in on the FB page or are you going to?
Crack on Hywyn, neither myself or Richard could pin him down.
Many Thanks. Thats 18 found. Potentially 9 to push.
I've put a request in to join. I have no public face on that FB though so they might not accept me. See how it goes. Do you know the admin
That William Henry Taylor was 69288 RWF later 85411 Durham Light Infantry
Thinking about Evan Owens again. He is definitely ex RWF. The 20066 number is a 5th Bn Supernumerary number. Allocated by RWF.
Here's what I have previously written re the Supernumerary numbers:
Re 20xxx numbers.
Last week I started getting to grips with the Supernumerary Coys. These were the ones you will know, that guarded installations eg Marconi Wireless Stations, Bridges, Power stations etc.
So far my conclusions are that all four TF battalions had them.They were mostly National Reserves (TF) men and either had a NR number (5th Bn) or a TF number ( 6th and 7th) Initially known as Defence Coys before complying with army orders regarding forming Supernumerary Coys around May 1915 and renumbered. They were to use numbers staring 20001 (per TF Battalion)
The strength of a Company being around 130 men.
4th Bn had one Coy (highest number found 20155)
5th Bn had one Coy (highest number found 20148)
6th Bn had four Coys (highest number found 20648)
7th Bn had one Coy (Highest number found 20146)
In April 1916 they were transferred to the RDC. There appears to be a pattern emerging of their RDC numbers.
You can therefore see the duplications of 20xxx numbers, especially the lower ones, abound! For each number between 20001 and 20146 there will be 5 men, one in the Regular series and one each for the Supernumeraries of each TF Battalion.(& so on higher up the range to 20648)
Mark Prince 41 Manley Road was 25332 RWF, later 126851 RAF where his do b is shown as 1970!! (He was 44 when enlisting in 1915 though) The FB entry shows aged 50 in 1934. 1901/1911 census shows him born 1875 (whilst Birth Register shows 1874 and Death Register shows 1875. Might the FB entry be a typo for 60? He has a son also called Mark Prince born 1899/1900. Can't find anything about him but all told the Mark Prince in the pit disater is most likely the eldest one.
Re Jabez Jones. Given what is said about him on the FB page, born 1881, collier etc he is very likely to be Jabez Jones RAF 407124 who was previously 7865/200797 RWF (according to MICs, but he had been transferred prior to the 1917 renumbering though)
Re Joseph Henry Gittins, 11 Abenbury Road: The cap badge looks to be Welsh Guards. Very likely (link between two addresses needed) then to be Joseph Henry Gittins 5617 Welsh Guards of 12 Offa Terrace, Ruthin Road. UK Service 1915 to 1918. Nil RWF connection seen.
I've sent a message to Margaret Jones (admin), hopefully we can get you access.
Ta Al.
Arthur Bew was 49082/4183969 RWF.
How much of a write up are you doing for Vol 5. Just name and number?
Yes probably. I'm just helping JR gather in the detail. He is planning to list the serving and ex members. As a footnote in the regiments history it should be documented anyway. I'm pretty certain the Gresford group will be grateful for any extra detail about some of the men that you tease out.
OK. She has accepted the request now. I'll put some stuff on later
John Edwardson, High Street, Gresford. Very likely 6766 4th RWF of Pant Cottage, Gresford. Has service papers showing right age
Slight problem is matching the 1934 addresses to wartime/Post 1920 book addresses.
I do wonder if there may be more than 27. I assume that figure was based on the serving who died, coupled with those men who were members of the RWFCA.
Having not fully read up on it I was going to ask you where the figure 27 came from.
There is the slight difficulty with matching wartime men's addresses with the 1934 ones hence the 'very likely' marker at the moment.
Re Post 1920 book I haven't got addresses etc after the first 7000 i.e 4178001 to 4185000 (where most wartime men are to be found) and only rely on JTs database (sorted into name order*)to match a name which is a bit of an effort with the Jones etc obviously.
Your/JKs decision whether the very likelys are the right ones of course. Where are we up to now with the 27? It's not going to be easy to match the Jones etc
* if you have also sorted it into name order bear in mind, especially with the 'common' surnames, that JT will have entered some in a slightly different format. Given the vast amount of inputting this is not surprising (and not, repeat not, a criticism) His most common format is SURNAME/comma/space/CHRISTIAN name. Those that are not so formatted show in the sorted list after the main bulk. Hope that makes sense.
The figure of 27, comes from the message from the Kings Private Secretary to the regiment, which was published in YDG Dec 1934.
Totals so far: 25
Confirmed RWF(assumed to be Ex):
William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
Edward Llewelyn Rogers
Confirmed Serving with 4RWF:
4186383 Bdsm Frank Hampson - HQ
4183662 Dmr Thomas Richard Cornwell - HQ
4190685 Fus George Albert Clutton - HQ
4182570 Fus Arthur Davies - HQ
4188348 Fus Mathias Davies - A Coy
4191282 Fus John Richard Parry - A Coy
4190774 Fus Richard Thomas Stevens - B Coy
Confirmed Former Members:
John Rowlands MM
4183216 Joseph Archibald
4187087 Ralph Edward Tittle
4178003 Iorwerth Jones
4179329 Albert (Harry) Ross
4186286 William Henry Roberts
20066 Henry Evan Owens(Later RDC)
69288 William Henry Taylor (Later DLI)
25332 Mark Prince (Later RAF)
8690 Walter William Wineyard
4183969 Arthur Bew
4183750 Thomas Dodd
200512 Ernest Jarvis
4188103 Albert Edward Cartwright
4187086 Albert Strangehttp://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3835&stc=1
Starting to add in full names and Service numbers.
The list* has Albert Strange, aged 25 of 21 Nelson Street (with comments in one thread that his brother Frederick died a day or two later, maybe disater related.)
Anyone got address for Albert Strange 4187086? Served 1926 to 1930. If not address then age/fathers name.
Poss for Frederick is 4190467 if someone has address/age for this one.
* If you haven't gotthe full list it's under the Files tab towards the top of the FB page.
1911 Census has an Albert Strange aged 1, living at 16 James St Wrexham. Father, William Henry Strange aged 35.
Both Fred and Albert are listed on the memorial page.
I can check unconfirmeds DOB's against the register a week Tues. Just need a consolidated check list by the Monday.
Aled Roberts
24-05-2015, 21:40
My prime suspect for the formerly serving I Jones :
5087 A/Sgt Iorwerth Jones 4RWF
Additional evidence is the photo - looks like four medals to me. The above man got a 1914 Trio and TFEM in 1920. Later number 4178003. He left the regiment 4th March 1933.
Richard
We'll go with that Richard.
Many Thanks.
Aled Roberts
24-05-2015, 23:18
John Rowlands is causing me a headache.
I have no John winning the MM with the RWF. Of the four "Rowlands" the choice is below. Clearly one stands out, Thomas, but he was 31 when discharged in 1918.
25135 Sgt Edward Rowlands 17RWF, born Tredegar.
37042 Pte Edward T. Rowlands 16RWF, Born Conway
7008/200304 Sgt Thomas Rowlands 4RWF
26180 Pte Thomas Rowlands 17RWF, Born Brynguran
The only John Rowlands I can find winning the MM is 14017 Sgt John Rowlands 7SWB - as far as I can see no connections with RWF
Now - I can't find my Waziristan gallantry boys I think from memory there were four MMs and one chap may have been a Rowlands .....
Aled Roberts
24-05-2015, 23:31
Not a Waziristan MM. Found the list.
Aled Roberts
25-05-2015, 00:09
Have not applied any great brain power to this list yet - it is just a list of potential matches between enlistments and the Gresford casualty roll
Surname
Christian Name
Vocation
Age
Birth Circa
Possible
Possible
Possible
Possible
Possible
Hughes
Robert John
Collier
29
1905
4178163
4185015
4190699
Jarvis
Ernest
Cutter-man
41
1893
4178188
Griffiths
Edward Charles
Repairer
25
1909
4178290
Davies
Hugh T.
Borer
26
1908
4178542
Jones
John Richard
Repairer
33
1901
4178662
4182932
4185400
4185775
Davies
John Edward
Collier
32
1902
4178765
Goodwin
John
Packer
51
1883
4178962
Jones
John Robert
Repairer
55
1879
4180809
Edwards
John Edward
Collier
39
1895
4181309
4181320
Edwards
Frank
Pipe-man
23
1911
4181503
Crump
William
Cutter-man
36
1898
4181591
Jones
Albert Edward
Borer
31
1903
4182000
4183192
4184681
Hughes
Harry
Cutter-man
44
1890
4182435
4186236
Edwards
Ernest Thomas
Ripper
53
1881
4182448
Clutton
John Thomas*
Rider Haulage
35
1899
4182548
Davies
Samuel
Filler
35
1899
4182609
4185084
Phillips
John
Filler
40
1894
4182737
Collins
John
Shot Firer
62
1872
4184308
McKean
Joseph (John)
Repairer
30
1904
4184682
Hamlington
Arthur
Repairer
62
1872
4184686
Davies
James
Repairer
37
1897
4185502
4188915
4190963
Davies
Edward
Packer
53
1881
4185625
4186312
Salisbury
William
Fireman
36
1898
4185686
4181575
Johns
Percy
Packer
27
1907
4186083
Clutton
Arthur
Packer
29
1905
4186381
Jones
Idris
Haulage
37
1897
4186594
4178445
Jones
Daniel
Repairer
33
1901
4186606
Baines
David
Haulage
26
1908
4186976
Strange
Albert
Collier
35
1899
4187086
Cartwright
Albert Edward
Packer
24
1910
4188103
Parry
Issac
Repairer
40
1894
4188296
Jones
John Dan (John Samuel)
Repairer
42
1892
4188423
Davies
Peter
Filler
25
1909
4188579
Davies
Peter
Borer
21
1913
4188579
Jones
George Humphrey
Haulage
22
1912
4188812
Hughes
Cecil
Packer
23
1911
4190148
Jones
Cyril
Collier
26
1908
4190259
Buckley
Albert
Haulage
21
1913
4190633
Evans
Joseph
Cutterman
32
1902
4190646
4185029
Edwards
Albert
Repairer
62
1872
4190912
Rowland
John David
Haulage
17
1917
4190946
Parry
John Edward
Haulage
31
1903
4191282
I can't recall where I picked up the "MM" tag.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-mining-disaster-unbelievable-scale-2083944
Mentioned by the surviving son…Albert. No mention in the YDG articles though. which is where I would expect to see it in the death notices.
Aled Roberts
25-05-2015, 11:03
To start the list Al. Both Hywyn and I think this chap is worth following up in the Enlistment books (We can keep adding to make a list for the others we think a check is worthwhile):
Cartwright
Albert Edward
Packer
24
1910
4188103
Re Ernest Jarvis.
Have just put this on the FB page.
"I can put Ernest Jarvis 7382/200512 RWF (served 4th & 19th Bns) to 4 Little Vownog , Bersham in 1919. In 1920 he was aged 27 when he enlisted in 4th Bn TA. Served to 1927Married Fanny Bailey Anders in 1920. All told, same man I'd say"
There is mention on the page that his father Edward was on a local WW1 memorial. Edward Jarvis, Army Service Corps R4/062719 died in France 27 12 1916. His papers show he was from 4 Little Vownog. Same man then.
Albert Edward Cartwright 4188103
Born 12/5/?? I messed the birth year!!...sorry
Enlisted 2/2/1928
Disch 1/2/1932
Address: "Father" Florence St, Rhosddu Wrexham (I think he was a boy when he joined).
Occupation. Haulage - Colliery
Confirmed RWF
4187086 Albert Strange
Born 7/10/1907
Enlisted 19/5/26
Disch 18/5/30
Address: 21 Nelson St, Crispin Lane, Rhosddu Wrexham
Confirmed RWF - No 25
His step-brother 4190467 Frederick Strange a serving member of 4RWF died a few weeks later.
Born 14/11/1911
Enlisted 18/2/1931
Died 14/10/1934 (Still serving) "Dead" written in register...This is the later death a few weeks after the disaster.
The figure of 27, comes from the message from the Kings Private Secretary to the regiment, which was published in YDG Dec 1934.
Totals so far: 25
Confirmed RWF(assumed to be Ex):
William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
Edward Llewelyn Rogers
Confirmed Serving with 4RWF:
4186383 Bdsm Frank Hampson - HQ
4183662 Dmr Thomas Richard Cornwell - HQ
4190685 Fus George Albert Clutton - HQ
4182570 Fus Arthur Davies - HQ
4188348 Fus Mathias Davies - A Coy
4191282 Fus John Richard Parry - A Coy
4190774 Fus Richard Thomas Stevens - B Coy
Confirmed Former Members:
John Rowlands MM
4183216 Joseph Archibald
4187087 Ralph Edward Tittle
4178003 Iorwerth Jones
4179329 Albert (Harry) Ross
4186286 William Henry Roberts
20066 Henry Evan Owens(Later RDC)
69288 William Henry Taylor (Later DLI)
25332 Mark Prince (Later RAF)
8690 Walter William Wineyard
4183969 Arthur Bew
4183750 Thomas Dodd
200512 Ernest Jarvis
4188103 Albert Edward Cartwright
4187086 Albert Strange
Aled Roberts
09-06-2015, 23:27
Been trying to pin Joseph Mckean
His father, Joseph senior (Pte 646 & 5956 RWF) married Hannah Ellen Lewis in October 1897 at Wrexham Registry Office. They had two children Elizabeth (20/1/02) and Joseph (27/6/04)
Hannah died in July 1909.
In 1919 he married Harriett Mary Jones (nee Hart) whose husband had died (Geoffrey Bernard Jones) - They had one son Richard Jones.
I suspect they had been "living in sin" for some time prior to that.
Joseph Snr died 15th November 1935 - and at this time was living at 28 St Giles Crescent, Wrexham.
The attached document confirms this is the right family
The Joseph who died at Gresford married Elsie M Sheldon in 1933. Despite not being able to tie in the "Cheshire View" address I can find no trace of any other candidate other than 4184682 (and jotting up the days between the birth of and enlistment is about bang on)
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3862&stc=1
Aled Roberts
10-06-2015, 00:00
Just read through the facebook data again
"Only mentions his dear wife & his little daughters Jean & Patsy 19 Derby Road, Hightown"
Found births for Patricia E McKean & Jean McKean - mother's maiden name Sheldon.
Good enough Richard, well done…the side notes mentioning the "Alford" address and the disaster is compelling..
Number 26!
Totals so far: 27
Confirmed RWF(assumed to be Ex):
William Henry Nichols
Harry Nicholls
Edward Llewelyn Rogers
Confirmed Serving with 4RWF:
4186383 Bdsm Frank Hampson - HQ
4183662 Dmr Thomas Richard Cornwell - HQ
4190685 Fus George Albert Clutton - HQ
4182570 Fus Arthur Davies - HQ
4188348 Fus Mathias Davies - A Coy
4191282 Fus John Richard Parry - A Coy
4190774 Fus Richard Thomas Stevens - B Coy
Confirmed Former Members:
John Rowlands MM
4183216 Joseph Archibald
4187087 Ralph Edward Tittle
4178003 Iorwerth Jones
4179329 Albert (Harry) Ross
4186286 William Henry Roberts
20066 Henry Evan Owens(Later RDC)
69288 William Henry Taylor (Later DLI)
25332 Mark Prince (Later RAF)
8690 Walter William Wineyard
4183969 Arthur Bew
4183750 Thomas Dodd
200512 Ernest Jarvis
4188103 Albert Edward Cartwright
4187086 Albert Strange
4184682 Joseph McKean
4186083 Percy Johns
Pete Dagnall
15-06-2015, 17:57
Ap1, just a thought do you have a list of all miners who died in the disaster. If not, I have one.
Aled Roberts
15-06-2015, 19:33
Hi Pete.
Thanks for the kind offer of assistance. We have the original list and addresses. We are using it to cross reference the men we believe were serving or former members of the regiment.
Richard
Pete Dagnall
16-06-2015, 10:07
Richard, no problem it is just that I am a member of our local history group, Broughton, Wrexham, about 3 miles from the Colliery.
if you are interested our historian has been researching the soldiers mentioned on our Memorial Gates from both WW1 and WW2. I have asked him if I can give out the link and he is more than happy to share his research.
http://www.broughton-history.co.uk/page24.html
if you scroll down you will find all the names. Some of them are not RWF though.
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