Infantry crisis as troops quit

[jcj]

Worst-hit is the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Welsh, which is a staggering 165 men down.

The others 100 or more down are the Scots Guards, the Irish Guards, the 5th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland, the 1st Battalion the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment, and the 1st Battalion the Royal Welsh.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007000617,00.html

Makes grim reading

[beefy22]

Dont belive everything you read in the SUN

[dutchman]

very true beefy , that bird on page 3 thursday was never 36 dd

[Gwyn Nicholas]

It does make for grim reading but let us be honest about it, there are no suprises here! With all the stories of lack of equipment and support (nothing new) coming out of Iraq and Afganistan, what right-minded person would swallow any Positive recruitment advertising?
The only blessing that our lads have at the moment is that Northern Ireland has calmed. If it kicks off again "leave" will be renamed a 48 hour pass . I look forward to hearing what this bunch of no-hope civilians come up with to play down the crisis, no doubt they will "recognise" the problems, they will be "addressing" the situation, they may possibly come up with a financial answer provided the chancellor can find a way of retrieving any promised funding before it actually leaves the treasury! What about National Service? A perfect time to introduce it. Get the Bad boys off the streets, pay conscripts less money than professional soldiers but more than dole money. I was appalled at the state of some of the accomodation they showed on the news last evening. I can remember some pretty horrible quarters and Barracks but having witnessed the modernisation of our Barracks in 1993/94 in Tidworth , I thought things were on the up. Thirteen years on, it seems that is far from being reality. I am not really the political sort but I remember previous Labour Governments, they have never and will never have any loyalty towards the forces (apart from using and abusing them). Remember being told back in the nineties , the reason for Redundancy ," A Smaller but better equipped army". A Joke-but not funny!

[ukcalling]

Gwyn i beleive it is down to the standard of soldier that is being recruited in this day and age no disraspect to them. But there is no dissapline in the army these days never mind at home. Surely its up to the soldiers them selves not to let it get in to that state?. i remember in Berlin when handing over wasnt the grass painted green where it had lost colour?. I know ther RWF sorry RW wouldnt of let it get to that state. After working in care homes since leaving the army i know national service is a good idea but will it ever happen? i dont think so.

[Paul Hinge]

I agree with everything that has been said but would like to add that even during my service the Army, and the rest of the services were quite willing to let highly experienced men whom they had spent thousands upon thousands of pounds trianing leave the forces without too much of a fight. They operated a policy of "we can always recruit more!"
Well that was all well and good when there were gaps between commitments but today we are seeing increasingly the demands on soldiers and serviceman being such that they quite literally go from one commitment to another with very little resipte in between. Consequently they get "****** off" and look to the grass that supposedly is greener in Civvy Street.
Finally, when it come to equipment, all I can say that it's a farce and either the politicians are lying or the civil servants are shooting them a tissue of lies or both!

Hingey:frown:

[jcj]

Dont belive everything you read in the SUN

I take everything the SCUM prints with a pinch of salt but in this case it is true. We are not only losing young Fus's and Pte's but many of our best trained Cpl's and SNCO's are leaving and then signing up to go back to Iraq and earn triple their salary working for Private security firms. Dodgy but lucrative and who can blame them. In the 70's we got fed up with back to back tours of NI well these young lads feel the same about a third six month tour of Iraq in three years. You couple that with the build up training etc where is the fun side of Army life going. I can speak with experience recruiting is not the problem Retention is. I have been in the Army for 40 years and still serving, I believe I am very lucky to have served when you worked hard but there was also quality of life and a lot of sport and FUN. Apologies for banging on.

[ukcalling]

Not at all these points need airing and some thing needs to be done b4 we loose the army altogether

[jcj]

Not at all these points need airing and some thing needs to be done b4 we loose the army altogether

Sorry if I offend as I am not Ex RWF and by default a guest but I thought this forum was called General Discussion

[dutchman]

gwyn i work with quite a few BLAD BOYS as you call them and i agree national service is a great idea but do you know the feedback i get about serving in the forces from the BLAD boys, it's not oh my god i aint going to iraq/afghanistan whatever its all down to the point ukcalling brought up the BLAD boys say " i aint having no f****** p**** tell me what to do id smack him in the mouth" then in the same sentence they are bragging how they told off other blad boys for disrespecting them . strange old world aint it , when you expect discipline from others but will not under any circumstances take it yourself .
at the same time the current situation has got to be putting youngsters off joining when you hear more and more the treatment or lack of handed out to wounded and psychologically damaged forces personel . would i join now , not in a million and if my boy wanted to i'd lock him up.

[ap1]

I've been out 5yrs, and I really don't recognise the life the guys lead now. JC is right when he says it was different years ago, you worked hard, but were allowed to play hard aswell.

I don't think the young lads in the army today are any less disciplined than we were, watching the video footage of them fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, they do it with great professionalism, courage and determination.

The BBC this week has been identifying that the Deed of Covenant(We will die for you, but you must look after us and our families, and respect us) between the nation and its Armed Forces has broken down. I agree, slum housing, poor health care, poor pay for Jnr ranks, lack of good equipment, lack of funding, overstretched, over committed, politicians using the armed forces for party political gain.......the list is endless.

During the furore over the last few days, it has been left to a junior minister to face the media, that just about sums up the govenments atitude to its soldiers, where the hell was the Secretary of State for Defence. Probably on holiday, enjoying his extremely large salary, over his extended xmas break.

I would still like to see a General resign on the steps of Whitehall:rolleyes:

[ukcalling]

Sorry if I offend as I am not Ex RWF and by default a guest but I thought this forum was called General Discussion


not at all mate im not disagreaing im in agreance 100%

[jcj]

UK calling
as Al Poole has indicated to me it looks as if I made a gaff (not the first time) and misread your quote. A sheer coincidence but today one of my new recruiting Sgts (2 R Welsh )had to give a talk as part of his training and the subject was poor retention, reasons why etc . What could and should be done to stem the flow of good soldiers leaving.It was very interesting informative and not least sad to see the decline in quality of life for single soldiers and pads. Anyway apologies for getting your post wrong.

[ukcalling]

UK calling
as Al Poole has indicated to me it looks as if I made a gaff (not the first time) and misread your quote. A sheer coincidence but today one of my new recruiting Sgts (2 R Welsh )had to give a talk as part of his training and the subject was poor retention, reasons why etc . What could and should be done to stem the flow of good soldiers leaving.It was very interesting informative and not least sad to see the decline in quality of life for single soldiers and pads. Anyway apologies for getting your post wrong.

No worries mate were all men :biglaugh:

[Rog Ball 01]

With all the publicity about accm, for singles and married men, no wonder some are not happy and leaving the army.

Do you think that raising the age of enlistment and discharge for all is going to solve the problem, I certainly dont.

Rog 401

[beefy22]

My personal opinion is that i think that the soldiers we have coming through the gates these days are no better or worse then the soldier around 10-15years ago, however the army system has changed, from recruiting, depots, military law to name but a few.......and just to qoute what al has said "i don't think the young lads in the army today are any less disciplined than we were"

Belive me the boys do get disciplined these days but probably not in the same way as we all used to, the big one of any discipline action these days is AGAI 67 which probaly most of you are not aware of, and there is a lot of do`s and dont`s that come with this, so the system has changed 100%.

We still do a professional job throughout the armed forces, but the days of 'old and bold', scarey CSM`s and Provo Sgt`s with their own little ways of dealing with discipline have long gone. There are other ways which have been enforced.

[ianto73]

As always, a very good discussion on a very relevant topic. There is no doubt that our politicians have lost the respect not only of our service personnel, but the population at large - irrespective of their party. Although my nine years ended a very long time ago, it was still a very important part of my life and my failing was to lose touch with all my former comrades. National Service will never be re-instated because it will not buy votes at election time - that is all a politician thinks about - how do I get people to vote for me. I am so very glad that I do not have children or grandchildren for that matter that are likely to ask me about joining up because on the one hand I feel it is a good career but on the other hand I feel the services are completely undervalued by the public. Of course, there is an alternative to National Service to the Regular Forces and that could be a mandatory two year attachment to a TA unit which could help the undermanning. Apologies to those who may not agree, but being cynical comes with old age in my case.

[UKSniper]

Beefy was bang on. The soldiers of today are as good as those from the past. They have a massive range of technical equipment to learn nowadays and it all takes time to learn and adds to the reason why they should be paid good money. The equipment we have today is the best I have seen in my 23 years service. Some of it does arrive as an urgent operational, off the shelf buy, but its better than going without. It's probably a good idea the younger generation play games on Playstations as a lot of the equipment they now use is just like a game.

OP FRESCO, the Fireman strike started a massive decline in manning because all the troops were on the ground covering the strike and they saw their pay compared to the Fire Service, Police and Paramedic etc on the TV daily. It became obvious to them then, that they were not being paid enough. Now that they are spending most of their time in Iraq, they can see that they may as well be doing it as a civvy security operator and earn big bucks at the same time. It's a bit riskier but then the extra money makes up for that.

I do not agree with National Service or sending young offenders into the Army as we are too busy to sort out the problems of todays society. As it is Company Sergeant Majors spend 95% of their time sorting out the 5% of their Companies that do not toe the line.

The figures for the Royal Welsh do look bad but recruiting is going very well and all the Recruiters deserve a pat on the back. The problem is 'retention' in the training depots and the Battalions. Retention has been a long term problem and I have seen all sorts of initiatives to stem the flow. The only way to stop soldiers leaving is by paying them a decent wage. Bonuses here and there will not work. It needs to be a massive pay rise for the Pte/LCpl and bring them into line with a firefighter/Policeman.

Sorry if I've rattled on but recently I have seen some very good professional men walking through the door because of the risks for the lack of money. I know some of you will say the Army is not about the money but it is when a Pte cannot pay his bills or buy a house. He could not even afford to buy a house on the Gurnos in Merthyr. (No offence to any of our Merthyr brethren).

On a final note its good to see so many "serving Generals " now voicing their opinions to the public. It's good to see them standing up and being counted.

[Braz]

It's really sad to see so many fine Regiments struggling to keep hold of enough of their Men. I hope this Government sort it out soon. As for the Bad Lads, if Civvy Street don't want them, why should the Army have to have them.

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Dutch when I mentioned "Bad lads" And National Service, I wasn't actually suggesting anything it was meant as a rhetorical answer along with Addressing the situation etc. My personal view is that , I do not think National Service would be good for the forces and hopefully it will never come to that. To say that it will never happen would be a brave statemen given that Terrorism is now global and continuing to grow at an allarming rate. As for our current forces, I still believe them to be the best professional forces in the world with probably the worst administrative support from the MOD.

[ap1]

The only way to stop soldiers leaving is by paying them a decent wage. Bonuses here and there will not work. It needs to be a massive pay rise for the Pte/LCpl and bring them into line with a firefighter/Policeman.


Spot on. A Police Officer earns £28,000 after 5yrs service, that is before any overtime. A pte or Lcpl will not get anywhere near that. After 10yrs service police officers are earning in excess of £32,000.

The bonus that was recently offered to soldiers on active service in order to damp down the media, is in my view a slap in the face for all of us who served before and were always told, all our efforts were covered by the mystical "X" factor. Remember Bosnia and Gulf War 1, married soldiers were deployed from Germany and had their LOA seriously reduced, so that their families suffered. This has always been the forces way, and the guys and girls grin and bear it, and continue to suffer.

They need some real root and branch reforms of the whole of their service conditions, and quickly.

I still want a General to resign on the steps of Whitehall :daydreaming:

[Beano Hind]

Thats probaly why recruiting ages have gone 30 +

[Paul Hinge]

jcj is spot on with what he says in his first posting.
Retention is a massive problem!
The figures the MOD have released of 12700 or so recruited yet 14700 odd leaving shows the problem has to be internal with the management of the rescouses i.e. trained personnel leaving because of overcommitment and feeling that their worthless. I'm sure if an Audit (of any worth) was carried out on Value for Money, the MOD would be in deep ****.
What can be done?
Well, those in power need to understand that with a Services that are under strength, under resourced and overcommited, the need is to address what the Forces are there to do in the first instance. First and foremost they are there to aid and protect the homeland not support what I consider, as do many others, a USA thirst for hegemonic (overall) dominance of the world.
Our boys deserve better. The Generals are now speaking up. Perhaps more of this is needed without the threat of outdated sanctions hanging over their heads.

Hingey

[Paul Hinge]

They may well sit up and take notice if a general did resign. However,I doubt it they are all part of the establishment! They have been very verbal recently so even they are feeling there must be some truth in what is being said by those in the frontline.

[Smokeyjoe]

I agree with a lot of the comments so far, I remember the same issues being raised over the years but in different ways, all the political parties have made their views known in the past from "We are 100% behind our boy's" to "we will change the system for the better" and of course "We will provide our troops with the equiptment they need when they ask for it".
The comments have always been made when the Party's are in opposition.
I am afraid the sevices in general are not appreciated by the general public or politicians until the proverbial hits the fan.
Regards,
Joe.

[Paul Hinge]

Joe your comments are completely correct.
I'm afraid that when politicians get into power they go 'native' and subscribe to the Sir Humphrey syndrome. These senior civil servants (Permanent Secretaries rank), have such a hold on how the country is run any politician wishing to make waves just like Jim Hacker tried in the sitcom Yes Minister/Yes Prime minister find that inertia occurs, so they play along with the status quo. We are seeing some sort of clearance happening in the Home Office at present but I can guarantee it will not be enough to make a real change to the establishment.

Hingey