View Full Version : Frank Williams WW2 Wrexham TA, RWF mix of units, Killyleagh, Possible Commando time
We have just received records for both my grandfathers. One is very straightforward, easy to follow and ties in with everything we already knew. The other is proving confusing and I would be grateful for any help anyone can offer which might shed some light on some of it.
Frank Williams was initially in the TA, signed up in Llay, Wrexham in June 1939. He was embodied 2/9/39 into the 8th Unit RWF.
Jan 1940 Lance Corporal 8th unit
May 1940 Acting Corporal 8th Unit
June 1940 Posted to ITC Wrexham (assume this is Infantry Training Centre?)
22/6/40 posted to/TOS 50th HB (assume 50th Holding Battalion)
27/8/40 Corporal
22/9/40 Posted 4th unit Down Patrick
something in May 1941 about a Court Martial about allowing members of his guard to be improperly dressed and not inspecting the arms of his guard before dismounting? (he always said it was because he fell asleep on watch or something) - reduced to ranks
1-3/10/41 CRS Dromore
14/3/42 Posted to 31st Battalion RWF Lichfield
18-22/4/42 CRS Vanguard Bangor
Mar 1943 - SPP (is this Special Proficiency Pay?) granted
16-24/4/43 Military Hospital Abergale
5-12/5/43 CRS Portmadoc
12-23/6/43 CRS Portmadoc
17/12/43 Posted to Y List ASC (is ASC Army Service Corp? would make sense given the next entry)
27/1/44 Transferred to RASC as a driver and from here on very logical, easy to follow and matches what he said
SO this might look quite normal to everyone else, I don't know but from what this says he basically stayed in Wales and Ireland for the duration of the war and went into hospital a lot for completely unknown reasons.
What he SAYS he did in the war was commando training in Benbecula, something in Norway which shocked him a lot and he refused to ever talk about it but was upset when there was something on the TV about it many years later, just said he had been there, they had been on land for 48 hrs and been very heavily bombed. He also said that half his Battalion went to India but he didn't because he had pneumonia so then those who had been kept behind were sent to do other things but I don't understand why nothing is mentioned anywhere about him doing any commando training or going to Norway. I don't believe he invented all that. He was asked after the war to be an officer in the Pioneer Corp (?).
Any help or ideas of any way we might find out any more would be very gratefully appreciated. Very sadly he was killed alongside my Grandmother in the 1970s so there has been no opportunity to ask any questions.
There are no medals listed anywhere, not even the standard ones which I know he refused to claim as did my Grandmother and other Grandfather so I have no other information there.
thank you
A warm welcome Anniek.
At the outbreak of WW2. The military planners were concerned about Scandinavia. So in secret an allied force of divisional size was formed to halt any German advances through Norway etc. It was called Avonforce This landed in Norway on the 14th April. However they did not have enough men to cover the coastal areas between the defended locations at Namsos and Narvik, additionally they also needed raiding parties, so they formed Independent Companies. Smaller than an infantry battalion, but able to operate independently for up to a month. Each section was led by a Lieutenant. They were designed to operate from ships which would act as a floating base….Hence they had no transport.
The men were drawn from 1st and 2nd line TA Units, including the RWF (158) Inf Brigade in Northern Ireland. No 2 Company was formed in April 1940 and commanded by Maj Hughie Stockwell RWF. The men were a mixture of all the welsh infantry TA battalions. They were formed into three platoons. 158. 159 and 160. There was also independent companies formed from TA units on the UK mainland.
The men from 158 Inf Brigade were then moved to Ballykinlar in Co Down, into "Green Village" and then commenced arduous training in the Mourne Mountains. By the 13th May they were landing at Bodo Norway. Eventually Stockwell had to take command of 2 x Independent Companies during the fighting withdrawal, this was codenamed "Stockforce"
For a brief overview of their actions in Norway see the Wiki entry for their commander Hughie Stockwell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Stockwell
8 RWF Franks original unit was a 2nd Line TA Infantry Battalion, its function was to provide replacements or reinforcements to its 1st Line TA infantry brigade "158(RWF)" which was deployed in Northern Ireland. Looking at the details you provided, it appear he was posted to 4th RWF within that brigade at Downpatrick in Sept 1940 after the Norway action.
As to whether Frank served in Norway? It's very possible, either with 2 Ind Company, or one of the companies formed on the UK mainland. To my knowledge this is the first query we've dealt with regarding the Norway action, so documentary sources are limited. There is no mention of Benbecula in the limited sources I have, however, its possible that other units did train there before deploying to Norway as part the independent companies..
By the way, what was his service number?
Here is the infantry order of battle for the Norwegian Campaign:
3138
thank you very much for replying. His number was T/4195427 The T was dropped on later papers - I assume it is because he was TA?
It is all so complicated to someone who knows nothing about it. He always said he was one of the first to do commando training.
I am also very puzzled as to why he kept ending up in hospital in North and West Wales when the records imply he was in Lichfield which I thought was in Staffordshire. 31st Battalion RWF.
I appreciate your help.
Its worth pointing out that although they arrived on the 13th May at Bodo, the Independent Companies under Stockwell's command actually fought the withdrawal battle against the Germans for about 4-5 days in length. From the 25th - 29 May 1940. Which would fit in with Franks short timeline. Unlike the main troops, who'd been there since April.
yes that would make sense. It would also possibly tie in with him then being shuffled back to Wrexham at the end of June.
Is it usual though for anything like that not to have been recorded anywhere? I mean I realise they couldn't possibly log everything for everyone as that would have been impossible with the sheer number of soldiers but I am just surprised it looks like he never went anywhere or did anything for the whole duration of the war (except be charged once and go to hospital a few times)
Thank you for your help.
I have the No 2 Service Company War Diary... it has details of nearly every man who served, I'll shifty through it but may take some time to get round to it.
wow - thank you, no rush at all.
I am trying to think if there is anything else we know about him. I know he was a very boxer during the war and was asked to turn professional but he said no. I wish we had started looking a lot earlier to be honest as there may have been people around who remembered a tall redhead who was good at boxing but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think it is important to find out what we can to pass on to my children. We are about to apply for my father in law's records too, he was in the first wave of troops into Belsen but he too died many years ago so we don't know very much about him either.
Personally him returning to Wrexham makes little sense as most stayed with the Company, those who didn't returned to their relevant unit in 53 Div, but he may be an exception to that rule. Hopefully the WD clears things up!
Hi Anniek.
I have been looking at CRS Dromore. It appears that the RAF had a station there during the war, but i can not find out much about it. but will keep looking.
guy's. is it possible that CRS could stand for Commando Reception Centre.
ivor
I was also wondering what "CRS" is. Maybe his unit had guarding commitments at these locations.
The WW2 Forum lists : CRS - Chief Review Services; or Control and Reporting School
all the hospital stays were CRS. so CRS Dromore which I think must have been in Northern Ireland as that is where he was at that time, CRS Vanguard - Bangor, CRS Portmadoc so I just assumed it meant something hospitally? I know he was in Dromore for scabies. I must try and scan the papers in, it might be clearer but they are A3 so not sure how to do it tidily. Might try photographing high resolution instead.
Thank you for your help everyone.
I wonder why he went back to Wrexham for more training then in 1940 if people tended to stay in their groups. But it looks like he was posted at the same time to the 50th holding battalion so perhaps that was why he was moved and they just did a briefing or something at the ITC in Wrexham?
Just asked my mum and she said she remembers him saying they were turned loose in the mountains for survival training and he killed a sheep for food so that could well have been training in the Mourne mountains and she said when she asked where Narvik was once because it was in a book she was studying at school he said he had been there during the war so he must have been somewhere in that area. With regards to him saying he went to Benbecula (which according to some things on the internet was used for landing vessel training - is that the right term?) she said she read the name once when she had ordered some tweed material from there and pronounced it as "ben b cooler" and he said it was Benbecula and he had been there for training during the war.
Hi Again.
CRS. ok
CRS Portmadoc Links to a WERN MANOR Portmadoc a Land army unit.
CRS Vanguard Bangor No info
CRS Dromore.
Possible RAF Base in Gillhall Manor? (possibly haunted)
But Dromore is 15 ish KM from Lisburn and there, is a Forthill House and Grounds which was used as an Army Camp with the RWF being one of the first units to be stationed there.
Also the Nominal Roll of 1 Commando has a Private F Williams.
ivor
hi Anniek
Benbecular was Commando training country.
ivor
ooh thank you - that is great.
Hi Again.
CRS. ok
CRS Portmadoc Links to a WERN MANOR Portmadoc a Land army unit.
CRS Vanguard Bangor No info
CRS Dromore.
Possible RAF Base in Gillhall Manor? (possibly haunted)
But Dromore is 15 ish KM from Lisburn and there, is a Forthill House and Grounds which was used as an Army Camp with the RWF being one of the first units to be stationed there.
Also the Nominal Roll of 1 Commando has a Private F Williams.
ivor
He is listed as a corporal or a fusilier on his records, I don't understand the ranks. It would have been helpful if he had had a slightly more unusual surname wouldn't it!
hi .
Corporal is a Rank to which he had been Promoted.
Fusilier.
In most Army units the lowest ranks are known as Privates. but some units are known as FUSILIERS. as in Royal Welch. these tend to be the older units. The RWF goes back to the 1600's when they were named The 23rd Regiment of Foot. They have been Known as The Royal Welch Fusiliers since 1881, I think it was. With a great deal of pride and respect to which they are entitled. A very Heroic Unit.
ivor
ah I see - so if he had moved across to say 1 Commando then he would be a private as it is the equivalent rank. thanks. It could be him then.
hi again
just found this
''Technically these men were only on secondment to the Commandos; they retained their own regimental cap badges and remained on the regimental roll for pay.[5]''
the men had volunteered to be commando's. so Frank would have been still RWF, on paper.
ivor
Al.
In view of this last bit of info.
Is it possible that CRS is used to indicate that he was away from RWF on Commando Regiment Secondment.
Possible.
ivor.
ok. I wonder if that is why there seems to be no actual indication of him doing that in the notes then.
I have photographed them and they are pretty legible but are too big to attach so am just trying to shrink the files.
Well i would assume that the RWF would not know what he was doing only that he was away from the unit.
ivor
yes that would make sense. Does that mean though that there should be some other notes for him somewhere? I wonder. It would help fill in the blanks a bit if there were.
I only seem to be able to attach one picture. Can't seem to now add any more. If I shrink them too much though they won't be readable. Might have to come up with another idea.
Thanks for your info.
hopefully this will work better than me trying to add photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/einnaf/
these are the relevant pages we were sent. There were other standard pages about when he joined up etc but these are the only bits relating to the war years.
Hi All.
Can anyone help me here.
If Frank is Commando as well as RWF then which would take precedence. for instance if he was 1st Bn and they were to be posted some where abroad would Frank have been posted to a UK or Ireland unit. or maybe even a hospital, so as to be available if needed. This might account for him being in UK for the duration.
and
Anniek.
SPP may be Supplementary Partial Payment. Hmmm.
ivor.
what could a supplementary partial payment have been for?
could it have had something to do with him having been Married the previous Sept ???.
ivor
they got paid for getting married?
doubt it. but would he have received a higher rate of pay as a married man?????
oh I see - I suppose it is possible.
I wondered if it was Special Proficiency Pay - I found a reference to that somewhere online I think.
hi.
SPP.
Special Proficiency Pay.
''It was a "special award for ranks below sergeant, granted at CO's discretion, of 3d per day after 3 years' service for proficiency above the average, with a limit on the number of private soldiers to be so rewarded". Subject to annual classification.''
possible,
ivor
yes that could be the SPP.
The Commando Veterans forum have said that CRS stands for Casualty Reception Station (also sometimes called CCS Casualty Clearing Station) so that makes sense with it being hospitals.
they quoted
An extract from the War Diaries of 70 Infantry Brigade who were on exercise in North Wales in April 1942:
<cite>War Diaries wrote:</cite>Medical
The Camp Reception Station was opened by 187 Field Ambulance on the first day of occupation. More serious cases were sent to the Casualty Clearing Station at PORTMADOC.
hi.
I think you may well be right about Casualty Reception Station, 'Casualty Clearing Station.' Makes more sence
Looking at the Photo's. i think you have misread ''Vanguard'' I believe it should be ''Vaynol''.Faenol in Welsh. which is a Big House just outside Bangor. But i am not finding much ww2 info.
i will keep looking.
ivor.
dcdl12976
22-01-2014, 16:44
Don't forget special proficiency pay was also given for things like Parachute qualifications amongst other things (still is I believe)
ah yes it quite possibly could be Vaynol. Just shows how much easier computer fonts make things! thank you.
I don't think he would have done parachute training or anything like that but then I don't know what he did do. I did wonder if it was possibly to do with specialist training he would presumably have had to do as a volunteer commando. I suppose it could cover a range of things couldn't it. Thank you.
hi all.
looking at the history of Downpatrick. found the following rwf reference.
''The 123rd Ordnance Battery of the 1st Armoured Division of the United States Army moved into the old Downpatrick Gaol in May 1942. With a compliment of 210 men they stayed there until October 1942. They were under the command of Lt. Colonel John Waters who was the Son-In-Law of General Patton and set up his Headquarters at Downpatrick Racecourse.They had been at Newcastle for about two weeks before going to Downpatrick to replace the 6th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers who later became the 53rd Reconnaissance Corps.''
another interesting link to killyleigh
http://ww2ni.webs.com/countydownpart4.htm
you will have to scroll down to the entry on H.M.S.RAWDAH.
ivor
that is very interesting. He seems to have left Ireland in March 1942 so that would presumably tie in with them all leaving to be replaced by the American troops.
I still can't find any reference anywhere on the internet to the 31st Battalion in Lichfield which is where he then moved to in March '42.
Interesting about the ship - have just looked that up and it talks about it holding IRA prisoners.
hi.
Lichfield, Whittington Barracks (AAF-598) Pre-WWII Army Barracks occupied by US Army Units c.1943 1st QM Battalion (Mobile), 7th Chemical Depot Company, 28th Ship Hospital Platoon, 28th Station Hospital, 3rd Station Hospital (190 beds)
Lichfield, Old College House, 26/28 Dam Street WWII Lichfield Sub-Area HQ, Lichfield Sub-District HQPheasey Farms Camp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittington_Barracks
ivor
thank you - my googling obviously isn't up to scratch! I always thought I was quite good at finding stuff out but not with this search.
ok so my next question (sorry) having read about Whittington Barracks why, if they were US Army during WW2 would the 31st Battalion RWF (whoever they were) be stationed there?
I still can't see why he also ended up in hospitals in Bangor, Abergele and Portmadoc whilst listed as being in 'field' which I am assuming is their shorthand for Lichfield because that was the one above all of these entries.
Also one other odd question, did people often refuse innoculations? both my grandfathers refused them in 1943/4, it doesn't say what they were vaccinations for.
hi.
I think the US was there from sometime in 43, so the last entry showing ''Field'' is 24 June 43 so it may tie in. i am trying to figure the hospital bits, it's odd.
ivor
ah ok - so the Americans were following him around then. First Ireland, then Staffordshire.
Well I suppose it would be boring if it was as nice and logical as my other Grandfather's record. I am fascinated that once he became a driver the records are all clear and logical but this patch before that is just so strange. Makes me wonder what on earth he was up to.
Just looking at the Court Marshall info, what could 'disembarking' be referring to? boat?
hi.
this link is quite long. but you will need to scroll down to the heading. Changes in 1940, it has some more info.
http://ww2ni.webs.com/informationotherpart2.htm
ivor
thanks - that explains how the US troops fitting in with RWF in NI then.
Anniek.
Disembark. means to leave a ship, do we have a ship.
yes.
H.M.S Al Rawdah
Is that what they were guarding.
possible.
Ivor
hmm makes you wonder doesn't it.
hi.
Have been looking at the Y List and found the following.
''Y List
The army ruling at one time was that if a soldier had been in hospital for 21 days or more he was put on the Y-list; which meant that when he became fit for duty he was sent to a holding unit and then could be sent to any unit other than his own. This, in most cases, was not a popular move which, I believe under the orders of General Montgomery, was changed. The ruling became that if a soldier was in hospital for 21 day when wounded or sick for 30 days he was entitled to seven days home sick leave and then would return to his own unit if they wished or could be transferred to another unit.
My Dad's service record did exactly that shown above. Went into hospital early July 1942 and 21 days later was posted to the Y List. He did return to his own unit in October that year.
Hope that was of some help.
Also when my Dad was demobbed, he was posted to the Y List. Maybe one of the Vets can tell us a bit more.''
I have extracted the dates he was in either CRS or Hospital and they are more that 21 days. but what is a bit puzzling is that he is not posted to the ''Y'' until nearly 6 Months later.
and if he was in Litchfield what is he doing in Med Facilities in North West Wales.
Odd
Ivor.
thank you - that does in some ways make sense. He was put on Y list and then appointed to a completely different role as a driver. He did claim he was invalided out of the commandos due to an extra bone in his foot which cause some problems with marches but my mum said he never had any problems walking or going on long hill walks etc after the war so she never fully understood that.
I am relieved I am not the only one who thinks it is all a bit odd. We have no idea about the hospital visits when he was supposedly in Lichfield. He was always in excellent health right up until he was killed in the 1970s so as far as we know there were no ongoing health issues, there is no indication he was ever wounded on his sheets (mind of course there was no indication he actually did anything at all or that he ever left the UK so who knows) and I don't believe some pain from an extra bone in his foot would warrant hospital stays in the middle of WW2.
I haven't really seen any other people's records other than my 2 grandfathers but were they normally as odd/large gaps as this one? My other grandad did training courses and got qualifications which are all listed, there is lots of stuff on his about where he was and who he was training. not loads of detail but enough and in a logical spread out timeline that it makes sense.
hi.
I have been trying to make some sense of his Hospital dates.
CRS Dromore is, i think, just what it says. He was there for treatment for Scabies.
Now, the rest is where it gets a bit more interesting.
CRS Vaynol is on the Menai Straits near to Port Dinorwic,now Felinheli (welsh). Obviously something happened, prior to the 18/4/42 to put him there for 3 days. until 20/4/42, so it might be reasonable to think it was not particularly serious.
The next entry is the Military Hospital, Abergele .which had the following.
>Abergele WWII US Army Camp 32nd Evacuation Hospital 62nd General Hospital (1,500 beds)<
Whatever happened to put him there,must have been more serious as he is there from 16 to 24/4.43
9 days later he is in CRS Portmadoc, which also has a harbour. 3rd to 11/5/43. a month later he is back there again 12 to 23/6/43.
There are 2 things here i do not quite understand.
first. What is this 31 Btn in Litchfield which i can find nothing about. and why after his release from Hospital did he not return to this unit.
second . why would it take 6 months to put him on the ''Y''List.
with regard to the second question the only thing i can think of is that after his discharge on 23/6 he returned to whatever his duties were but became unfit to do them.
I think it fairly obvious that during this period he was Commando. I know that there were quite a number of training camps on the North West Wales Coast, Tywyn had 4 camps within the area, there was another at Barmouth and one at Harlech.
But, sadly, unless someone can come up with more info i don't know where we can go from here. i will keep looking.
ivor
thank you - that is all very interesting. Yes I am not sure where this 31st Battalion comes from. It doesn't seem to be showing up on anything. It looked like they wrote 30th battalion but then went over with a thicker pen to make 31 so they obviously initially made a mistake writing or changed their mind but it is quite clearly recorded as 31st.
It is reassuring it looks likely he was a commando then. I was starting to wonder if he had been making that up although why he would I don't know.
I really appreciate your help. Even if we find out no more I am much further on with information and possible ideas than I was a few days ago. Thank you.
Anniek.
just found this'
http://www.llgc.org.uk/ymgyrchu/Heddwch/WW2/HEAR07.jpg
ivor
thank you - will have to get a magnifying glass out I think. I have been to Criccieth.
I have just realised I think I have been a bit dim, I assumed (not having looked at service records before) that it was saying he was in Lichfield all that time because it just said field in that column underneath Lichfield but it has just dawned on me that that might mean he was 'in the field' so therefore could have been in any number of places in Wales hence the Welsh hospitals.
out of curiosity if the RWF were on the whole all Welsh people did they just speak Welsh? I know my Grandfather didn't learn English until he was an adult and his parents never spoke English.
hi.
Firstly i do not think you are being at all dim, this whole thing is quite complex as there are huge gaps in his record for which there is no written explanation.
I have wondered about it myself but to me it seems to be too vague, in effect they are saying well he is still on the strength but we do not really have a clue where he is, or what he is doing. which, if he was Commando would be perfectly true. it would only be when he went into hospital that his unit would be informed. This would appear to be more evidence that he was Commando.
This Tatton Park, possibility is interesting as it was used for Parachute training which as Dave said earlier might account for him being awarded SPP.
What i now wonder is, if he was 1 Commando,for instance, would they have kept records themselves and if so where would they be as it is obvious they were not sent to his unit when he left ?.
Your second point. i think there were a lot of Non Welsh speakers within RWF, but i think others will have more info on this.
ivor
Baconwallah
25-01-2014, 00:45
Perhaps I should point out that the records as supplied may well be incomplete. We have already discussed this in the St Venant thread, where there was mention of missing medical records (if I remember correctly).
John
dcdl12976
25-01-2014, 08:28
Ivor, Tatton Park was also used by the SOE/SIS which raises other posibilities mate and as know from my dad men were often seconded to them for various reasons yet they remained within there parent regiment.
not saying this is the answer just a possibility.
Morning
I am quoting an extract from a document re 1 Commando. this is from the nominal Roll.
''Formed 13th June 1940 with personnel from No's 6 & 8 Independent Companies as No 11 Independent Company. Redesignated No1 Commando 14th June 1940 and disbanded on 27th July 1940 and became part of No1 Special Service Battalion.
Reformed as No1 Commando 5th March 1941 in Dartmouth.
Raids included 27/28 August 1941 on the French coast.
2-7 April 1942 Bayonne ….Operation Myrmidon (Aborted)
A troop from No 1 took part in the raid on St Nazaire where Sgt Tom Durrant was awarded the Victoria Cross.
1942 No1 Commando was then withdrawn from raiding to prepare for the North African operations and landings ‘Operation Torch’. November 1942, during Operation torch, No 1 Commando were the first unit in history to wear the green beret in battle.
Several operations were undertaken by the Commando in North Africa before fighting as part of the line and then returning to the UK for refitting and re-equipping.
Nov 1943 the unit sailed for the Far East and jungle training in India.''
This now makes some degree of sense of his record.
If he took part in the St Nazaire raid was he injured and on his return in CRS Vaynol 18 to 20 /4 42 as a result.
The same can apply for Operation Torch Nov 1942. his record is blank from his marriage entry 5/10/42 till he is granted SPP on 3/3/43.
similar gap appears from 7/8/42 until he is married on 26/9/42. He does not appear to have asked for leave to do this so that i would think that he was stationed in the area, possibly Tatton Park. Para training ?
If he was involved with Operation Torch he would have left the UK probably not long after his Marriage and if he was again injured, more seriously this time, i can quite well believe he may not have returned to UK till April when he was Hospitalised in Abergele. If this injury was the reason for his 2 later visits to CRS Portmadoc then it might raise questions regarding his fitness.
This would be more critical as they were going to India for Jungle Training.Not the easiest job. and it might account for his refusing Inoculations.
This could well have been the reason for him leaving the unit and his posting to the ''Y''List.
ivor
hi all.
I Have linked this as it makes interesting reading.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/site/the-army-commandos
Oh. and Pte F Williams is listed on the 1 Commando Role of Honour.
there is a link within the document.
Total Respect is given.
ivor
Baconwallah
25-01-2014, 14:36
Er, the Pte F. Williams mentioned in the Roll of Honour was killed in the war.
John
Looking at 31 RWF. They were part of the "Home Forces" There is a file ref in the National Archive
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C31294
3143http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
thank you everyone. I don't think we will ever find out quite what he did.
He always said that half of them didn't go to India due to pneumonia and my mum by chance met someone recently who said the same about his father who had been a commando. I must get that story out of her properly - my parents met him in a stately home or something. So the pneumonia could explain one hospital visit or perhaps a couple but I would be surprised if it was more than that. He also apparently went to the docks to collect his 'troop' (is that what they were called?) when they came back from India and he was horrified to discover that their bags had been looted by the dockers. I don't know when they came back but that could possibly have been when he was a driver? although quite some coincidence to be going to collect the same men he had been training alongside if he was then in a different company/troop/battalion thing altogether (sorry I really haven't got the hang of the terminology here)
He definitely wasn't the one on the Roll of Honour, he wasn't killed until the 1970s.
Hi folks.
I never said that the F Williams on the Roll of Honour was Frank, nor do i know that it was him on the Nominal Roll. All i am saying is that there is a F Williams on the Roll of 1 Commando. Which may be a coincidence but from what we have it is a Possibility. There is no F Williams on 2 Commando. Which was founded at the same time.
1 Commando was founded from men returned from Norway which Frank had done and he was 8 Independent unit. While this is not proof it fits Known Facts/Beliefs. So it has to be considered.
When we started we had a possibility and some info. i think we now have a lot more possibilities and some strong Probabilities. I do not believe we can ever successfully find out what went on,or what happened, unless something else turns up, like 1 Commando records. But i will not give up just yet. I like Mysteries. and this is a good one.
ivor
1 Commando was founded from men returned from Norway which Frank had done and he was 8 Independent unit.
Can you post the portion of the record that states "Independent Unit" Please Ivor. Obviously without seeing the record, its difficult for the rest of us to pick up on possible clues.
Cheers
Hi.
as Requested.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/node/358
ivor
Thanks Ivor,
I think the "8th" on our Frank Williams service record refers to 8RWF. I don't see anything on the record that suggests he was a commando. Unless I've missed something. What I do think is maybe possible, that he was one of Stockwells men who deployed to Norway in May 1940. But that is only because of his family conversations. Gen Jon Riley is not aware of the name(he wrote Stockwells biog), but it was such an ad hoc group of men, quickly formed, from unlikely sources...effectively part time soldiers, doing the job of special forces, that anything in those dangerous times was possible. We will probably never know. Our final option is Swipers check of the war diary for that period.
Hi Al.
Like you i have been going on info given not looking at the record too closely. but this AM i have and have to admit i can not find any indications of Commando. but i do not think that, in view of the situation at the time, we should ignore the possibility.
I think you said that the Commando units only got to Norway in time to fight a withdrawal action so i would think it quite possible that Stockwell was not aware of who was there.
You may well be right about it being the 8 RWF but i am puzzled as to why he would not have been posted to I.T.C, if that is Initial Training Course until 22/6/40. and on the same date posted to the 50th. Looking on the record posted by Anniek. the one with his Embodied Stamp. There are 4 entries in the 1st column with 2 authority entries:-
149/40 and 103/40. posted to I.T.C. 22/6/40
13/40 and 150/40. Posted to 50th. 22/6/40 Taken on Strength at Denbigh. 23/6/40
153/40 and 68/40. Granted war substantive rank. 27/8/40
153/40 and 90/40. Posted to 4th 22/9/40.
Might this not indicate that the original authority came from a different unit.
It might appear that Frank never went to I.T.C. It might be interesting to know if he was T.A. before 39, as he would have done Basic then so he could have been available immediately. and would that have made him eligible to Volunteer for Commando. If so then 8th may still have been the Independent unit.
There is another odd thing here the 50th. quote..
''On the 10th January 1940 the 7th Holding Battalion was formed at Denbigh in North Wales containing a King's Own company. The 7th Holding Battalion divided on 2nd June and it's King's Own company moved to Heysham Towers in Lancaster, to form the 50th Holding Battalion. The first operation of the 50th was to receive men just back from the British Expeditionary Force in France. In the autumn of 1940 the 50th Holding Battalion was converted to the 10th Battalion of the King's Own and joined the Northumberland Division, Brigaded in 225th Infantry Brigade - along with battalions from the King's and Border Regiments. The 10th Battalion was responsible for coastal defence in Northumberland. In September 1940 the battalion did its first formation training as part of the 59th Division. After this training they returned to the beaches. In November 1941 the 10th Battalion learned that the Northumberland Division was to break up. 10th King's Own were to be converted to a heavy tank regiment of the Royal Armoured Corps - becoming the 151st Regiment Royal Armoured Corps in January 1942, receiving Churchill tanks shortly afterwards.''
If the 50th was in Heysham from 2/6 would he have been taken on their strength in Denbigh when they were a Kings Own unit and not RWF. the 7th HB would have made more sense.
ivor
its almost impossible to unravel. Perhaps the war diary for the 8th Bn, may provide a clue, especially if it mentions volunteers for Norway.
During his period with 31 RWF at Litchfield, I do wonder if he was involved in Coastal Defence, in North Wales.
hi.
Anniek.
did you say you had some records from earlier than the ones you scanned. If so was he TA before he Joined Up.
ivor
Hello - thanks everyone for all of that work.
Yes he was TA. He joined the TA on June 6th 1939 (as he turned 20) in Llay and it says he was for the RWF and the 4th Battalion. He was called to colours on 2nd September 1939.
The medical section of his service and casualty form is covered up with what looks like a white sticky label just saying C2(HS) 2/10/45 MD 1/c Troops Donnington. There is something written under that but impossible to see if it is anything useful. Can see a date of 1940 sticking outon the right hand side of the label and next line ARD then XASC underneath on the 3rd line so no help there.
Mum looked at her parents wedding certificate and whilst her mother gave 2 addresses, her home one in Tyneside and her ATS posting one at High Legh, he only gave his home address in Llay, they married in uniform in Bucklow. So I am not sure if that indicates he was moving around a bit.
He only ever mentioned training in the mountains and killing the sheep, training in Benbecula which he was none too complimentary about as place to visit and one trip to Norway. He certainly never mentioned going anywhere else and it did sound like he missed most of the action with missing India through illness.
I think you are right, we will never work it out but it is proving to me all the confusion surrounding everything in the war. Thank you to everyone, hopefully it is at least proving interesting for you too.
its almost impossible to unravel. Perhaps the war diary for the 8th Bn, may provide a clue, especially if it mentions volunteers for Norway.
During his period with 31 RWF at Litchfield, I do wonder if he was involved in Coastal Defence, in North Wales.
Coastal defence would make an awful lot of sense, it could also explain why he turned up in different coastal hospitals, plus a knowledge of the area of North Wales would presumably have been helpful as would any training he had done in the mountains (presumably in Ireland seeing as we know he was there) and Benbecula if what he said was right.
Anniek.
Believe me i am finding this fascinating.
However. You say when he joined the TA on 6/6/39 he was destined for the 4th RWF. Yet when he joined in Sept he went to the 8th something, he did not get to the 4th until 22/9/40, a Year later.interesting. I do not know if the RWF were ever in Benbecula or if they were involved in Mountain training in 39/40. Any ideas anyone.
But this raises an interesting point. he does not seem to have been on Basic Training. unless he did it between 6/6/39 and 2/9/39. as TA ????.
ivor
nope there is no training listed ANYWHERE. that is why I didn't copy the TA stuff because it doesn't say anything really.
standard who he is, medical stuff etc on pages 1 and 2 then on the 3rd page it says literally
6/6/39 RWF Attested, rank Fus from 6/6/39
4th posted 6/6/39 and stamped 4th Bn RWF
nothing else on that whole sheet
4th page is the military history sheet
just says place - home, from 6/6/39
the instruction/wounded/special instances/medals/injuries and so on all blank and then just his father filled in as next of kin.
absolutely nothing else whatsoever.
so no it looks like he did no training of any sort at any time for anything.
I am starting to wonder if he actually did anything at all.
my other grandad has courses, qualifications, training etc all neatly logged on his (he was also TA from 1939 but was highly skilled in setting charges in mines so was rapidly taken off to train people in mine disposal) but Frank seems to have done nothing at all.
I am pleased you are finding it fascinating
hi
odd as on the page you copied it says Embodied 2/9/39 8th.
further down Posted 4th 22/9/40.
ahhh good. another puzzle.
ivor
oh I hadn't noticed that. well you couldn't expect anything to match up could you? nothing else on his records seems to! All so odd. He must have done SOME training surely. It is quite sad in a way, he was a lovely man and very intelligent from all accounts, went on to employ hundreds of people, fitted in with everyone whatever their background, experienced miner before the war and so on (is listed as being a steel erector on his forms) so he would presumably have been a useful soldier and he signed up early as well rather than wait until he was forced.
mind I have learned something else, his religion is listed as a Culmonistic Methodist! I presume they mean a Calvinistic Methodist although I had never heard Calvinistic before so had to look that up.
hi guy's
another thing which seems odd is. within 3 months he was a Lance Corporal and 4 months later is acting Corporal. was this normal. as it seems a bit quick to me. he was only 20.
ivor
well I wondered if that was something to do with Norway.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/einnaf/12075122585/
on this page which seems to be the most 'confused' of the pages (mind I haven't really read the driver ones yet but they look straight forward) it says about him being Corporal right at the top, date given May 27th 1940. It presumably COULD be possible that the change to Acting Corporal occurred in Norway if the dates suggested earlier of 25-29th May 1940 might apply - he did say they were very heavily bombed and not on land for that long, Bodo would seem the one likely for bombing although he said he went to Narvik at some point and I can't see why he would even know much about Narvik if he hadn't been somewhere vaguely near for some reason. I notice that entries 2 and 3 on this sheet are in the wrong order. August before June so obviously written up some time after the event. Can anyone make out what the location was on the 3rd entry here it says posted to the 50th HB? I can't work it out. It looks like it starts with a B..lub..gh? Doesn't even hint at anywhere I have heard of.
And my mum says thank you very much for all your efforts and thoughts. She has been quite sad looking through all his records and them not making much sense so she really appreciates people spending time investigating.
I did ask her again about the bizarre story from bumping into this chap in a stately home last year. She is going to look up where it was they had been on a day trip but the chap was the owner of the House and his father had been a medic in the RWF and then went to Norway with 1 Commando. The man who became his (the house owner's) uncle was sent to India with one of the units where it was supposed to be the other half who went but they were all ill with pneumonia or some other such serious illness so his half went instead. She came back from the day trip quite unsettled because she said it all matched too closely what her dad had said about the India thing but she didn't think to ask the man if he knew any more. If she tells me where they were I will try to contact him to ask.
anniek.
the word is Denbigh. the 50th was formed there from the 7th HB.then moved to Lancaster.
ivor
gosh some of these people had awful handwriting! I did wonder about Denbigh after it was mentioned earlier but I just couldn't make the scrawl fit the letters. Mind to be fair Cpl next to it doesn't actually look like Cpl either.
I like the person a few lines later who wrote in capitals.
thanks
Good Morning.
A Question, if i may. I am not sure about procedure. If a man is Attested on 6/6/39, 4th Posted 6/6/39. Then Embodied on 2/9/39 8th where would he be between these dates, basic training or ?????
It seems to me that the period between 2/9/39 and his posting back to 4th on 22/9/40. is interesting,
ivor
I think I am going to owe some of you a coffee or a pint soon.
Hi All.
Chow linked this on to Facebook. While it does not mention Frank. it does go to prove that RWF personnel were involved with the independent Co's in Norway and were in Northern Island. interesting reading
ivor
A very interesting story.
I recently met a gentleman at the museum whose father, an officer in the Royal Welch Fusiliers during the Second World, hailed from Llandudno. He very kindly lent me a copy of his father’s personal war diary and it is apt as May 26th is th... See more
Photo: I recently met a gentleman at the museum whose father, an officer in the Royal Welch Fusiliers during the Second World, hailed from Llandudno. He very kindly lent me a copy of his father’s personal war diary and it is apt as May 26th is the anniversary of Lieutenant John Fitton’s capture by the German Army - after he and his section of men were ambushed in Norway in 1940. Lieutenant Fitton was a territorial in the 9th battalion RWF and, like so many others, received a telegram on the 1st of September 1939 instructing him to “Report immediately!” After a week in Caernarfon, Fitton was transferred to the 6th battalion and moved to Old Colwyn. The battalion left for Northern Ireland in October that year where they remained until May 1940. On May 10th 1940, Fitton and No. 2 Company departed Edinburgh aboard the SS Ulsterman, with HMS Cossack as their escort, and landed at Bodo, Norway three days later - where they were billeted in a fish factory. For the next fortnight the RWF carried out patrols, manned road blocks and gathered intelligence while constantly being watched by German reconnaissance aircraft. After coming under fire from the air and spending many nights in the freezing cold Fitton was ordered to report to company headquarters in Bodo. Cold and tired the men were running out of rations; their Norwegian interpreter had deserted them and shortly after 2pm they came under enemy fire. In the ensuing fire-fight a number of Lieutenant Fitton’s section was killed, Fitton himself was shot in the hand and briefly knocked unconscious when a round struck his helmet. Deciding that the only option was to surrender, the young officer ordered his men not to move but as he was getting to his knees, so did one of his soldiers, resulting in the death of Corporal Godsell. They remained in that position “cramped and nearly frozen to death” until the Germans took them prisoner at 4 o clock the following morning – more than 14 hours after the initial engagement. Second Lieutenant Tom Davies of Swansea, Corporal Ernest Godsell and Fusilier Richard Allen both of Welshpool, Fusilier George Black of Caernarfon and Fusilier Edward Roberts of Penycae were all killed. In addition, Lieutenant Fitton mentions that Fusilier Walher (possibly Walker?) was also killed that day but I am unable to find his name on the Commonwealth War Graves database. The following day Lieutenant Fitton and his few uninjured men buried their comrades in a grave close to where they fell; they made wooden crosses and simple pine wreaths and put the men’s steel helmets on the grave before holding a simple service led by the young Llandudno officer. After the war the men’s bodies were laid to rest in the churchyard at Saltdal. Photograph courtesy of the Fitton family.
I've been in close contact with another guy Ted Jones MM. Initially 1st Bn, He was in an independent company in early 1940, and conducted raids on the French Coast during Dunkirk. Before transferring to the 2nd Bn.
thank you chaps - I do appreciate the extra information and stories, it is all so interesting and so important these stories of people's experiences don't get lost over time.
out of curiosity has anyone come across cases of people being 'in hospital' or 'transferred' when they actually were off doing something else?
I was just reading this http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Spy-Worker-John-Makie/dp/1441518355
now I am not saying for one minute my grandfather did anything like this but it does make you wonder if there were some 'outings' that weren't officially recorded anywhere which could explain some rather blank areas and lack of training or anything recorded. My mum keeps saying she can't understand why he was in hospital other than the scabies because he was never ill after the war, the Dr didn't even know who he was when he had to have a medical before working overseas in the 1970s, never had any physical problems at all other than him saying he had flat feet and that was why he became a driver in the end.
hi all
A bit more info re the Independent Co's. Interestingly No2 Co was formed from the 53rd Welsh Dvn.
http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/Independent+Companies/
I suppose the problem may well be that initially the Origins of the Commando Co's was questionable, as i believe that their actions were, by some, seen as amounting to Terror Tactics, which resulted on many being executed.
This may have been a reason why the men of the early units retained their Regimental insignia. But this also may be a reason why they were not ''Taken off Strength'', but some explanation for their absence would have to be entered, so ''Hospital'', No explanation necessary.
An interesting Puzzle.
ivor
Ted Jones RWF MM one of our Branch members was a member of an Independent Commando for a period at the start of the war. He was detached from the 1st Battalion and sent with 12 other guys to the Southampton area for demolitions training. He conducted raids against german installations along the french coast in June 1940. Using RN Fast boats to make the journey. He basically described the operations as suicide missions!
No 2 Ind Company conducted the attempted reinforcement of Norway in April/May 1940. Eventually under the command of Hughie Stockwell RWF.
Hi again.
Have been looking into the background of the 'Norway Campaign' - Operation Avonmouth - with it's associated 'Sickle Force, and 'Maurice Force' both landing on 17th April. What is interesting is that their destination was originally supposed to be Finland to assist them with their war with the Soviet Union.
http://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/webeasycms/hold/uploads/bmh_document_pdf/Campaign-in-Norway-Overview.pdf
this is quite lengthy but very informative.
http://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/documents.php?aid=30&nid=4&start=5
It is interesting that the Independent Co's 'Scissor force' was actually made up of small highly maneuverable units. the forerunners of the Commando units.
ivor
dcdl12976
16-06-2014, 20:29
"out of curiosity has anyone come across cases of people being 'in hospital' or 'transferred' when they actually were off doing something else?"
Yes my father was oficialy in hospital etc when in actual fact he was making trips to occupied northern France (special ops was the official name)
Drew5233
17-06-2014, 08:54
and conducted raids on the French Coast during Dunkirk.
During May/June 1940? Any idea on the unit he was with at the time?
He just calls it an "Independent Company"…He couldn't remember if it had a number. He did show me a book, a month or so ago, that had an account of one of the raids. Which went badly wrong, out of ten boats, only one made it to the coastline, I think the others had mechanical failure etc. On landing the germans shot them up, the boat that dropped them off, beat a hasty retreat. The guys had a ding dong with the enemy, then managed to move along the beach and hide in some bull rushes…Later their boat picked them up and took them back to Folkstone, there was rum in the boats, the guys were stripped down to their underpants, so they drank the rum….By the time the boat landed they were hammered. They staggered through Folkstone like that, wolf whistling the women, eventually about 20 MP's arrived to escort them to the barracks….I've actually seen that account in a book. I'm wondering if its a special service company or similar.
In fact Drew, just managed to locate a newspaper article from ten yrs ago. I'm trying to work out which RWF Bn he came from:
3448
Right, it appears that 4th, 6th and 7th Bn's between them raised a platoon for No 2 Independent Company. They deployed to Norway.
Meanwhile, the 8th, 9th and 10th Bn's provided a platoon between them for No 9 Independent Company. These 3 x second line TA battalions were invoked in Coastal Duties in Sussex etc, which partially fits with Ted's story of being based on the south coast.
I think Ted took part in this raid : Operation Collar. The first ever commando raid!!!!…Bloody Hell, that is living history. Although it was conducted by 11 Independent Company, there is one crucial clue:
3451
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Collar_(commando_raid)
http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
I suspect Ted was with the group that landed at Stella Plage.
Drew5233
17-06-2014, 16:36
I have a shed load of (I think I have all of them) Independent Coy war diaries. Do you have a date?
I've just checked and there isn't a 9 Independent Coy war diary at Kew but there is a 9 Commando covering July to November 1940
Drew5233
17-06-2014, 16:37
I have 11 Company war diary - Will have a look later for you :)
This file looks interesting
WO 106/1740 Report on operation "COLLAR"; report on a small raid near Boulogne June 1940
Ps Do you have a copy of his MM citation?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D7365967
Hi Drew,
I've spoken to Ted today, he didn't really understand the significance of the raid of June 24 1940. His account pretty much matches the scenario of the guys who landed at Stella Plage. I've also located a guy on the Commando Forum, whose father was also RWF/9 Ind Coy and like Ted was sent to 11 Ind Coy for this raid.
Drew5233
17-06-2014, 16:45
Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming you know this chap and he is still alive and well. Have you approached him regarding applying for his service records? He can apply for a full copy for free and they will tell him who he was with and when he was with them.
I do have his Citation thanks Drew. The citation is actually different from what happened. In the citation it states the Japs opened fire on Ted. The reality was that Ted spotted the Jap barrels, poking out from the undergrowth, which his 2 x scouts had missed. He had the presence of mind to keep walking past the barrels, then stepped smartly into the undergrowth, so he was behind them and gave them a burst from his Thompson, with a 50rd drum mag, followed by a few grenades, he was injured in the leg. He then bugged out with his section….When he reported what happened, his Coy Comd ordered him to go back and occupy the position….as he returned, he caught the Japanese removing the bodies of their dead, so he repeated the exercise!!!
Drew5233
17-06-2014, 16:50
Here's the entry from the war diary. Obviously all the detail is in the file I mentioned above by the look of it. Ask him if his boss was Major Tod? It may ring a bell.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/843/sbb0k.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/nfsbb0kj)
I know him quite well, but I won't ask him for permission to do that.
Thanks for the diary. He remembered the name and actually said, I think he was the boss???…I then explained that he was probably in Teds boat. As was Lt Col Clarke, who dreamt up the idea and went along as an observer. Clarke was slightly wounded. He also remembered that the RAF supplied the 4 x speed boats. He didn't know what the other 3 objectives were…However that might have been good minimising of information spread in the even of capture at an early stage of the operation.
Drew5233
17-06-2014, 17:33
Found him....He was in 11 Independent Company
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/849/49b4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/nl49b4j)
Excellent Drew,
I'll pass that to the Regiments archivists.
Drew, do you have the nominal roll for 2 Ind Coy, we are still looking to see if Frank Williams features?
Correction Drew, 9 Ind Coy. As Frank was an 8th Bn man.
Hi Folks.
I am not sure about Frank being in the 8th,he was originally posted to the 4th, as that would bring into question his being in Norway as, according to the list i linked earlier,from the Commando Veterans Association. No 2 Ind Co, having been formed from the 53rd Welsh Divn,i do not think that the 8thbtn was part of the53rd, together with No's 1,3,4 and5 Co's formed 'Scissorforce' which Joined ''Op Avonmouth'' in Norway
But the Commando link also says that an 11th co was formed for one specific operation, could that have been ''Operation Collar''
ivor
Drew5233
17-06-2014, 23:38
There isn't a 9 Independent Coy war diary for that period but there is a 9 Commando one which I'm assuming is one and the same and more than likely incorrectly names by Kew. Whilst I have a lot of these files I don't have a copy of the 9 Commando one.
Any others you want me to check?
Hi.
From this attached list it would seem that the Commando units 9 and 11 were formed sometime prior to 11th Oct 1940.
http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/Independent+Companies/
ivor
Drew5233
18-06-2014, 00:13
Scrub my last - I have found the 9 Independent Coy war diary for May and June in another series (WO 168 Norway). It's only two pages, not much detail, I'm sacking it for the night now so I'll post the pages tomorrow.
Cheers
Andy
"out of curiosity has anyone come across cases of people being 'in hospital' or 'transferred' when they actually were off doing something else?"
Yes my father was oficialy in hospital etc when in actual fact he was making trips to occupied northern France (special ops was the official name)
thank you - that would make so much more sense than what his records are saying.
Hi Folks.
I am not sure about Frank being in the 8th,he was originally posted to the 4th, as that would bring into question his being in Norway as, according to the list i linked earlier,from the Commando Veterans Association. No 2 Ind Co, having been formed from the 53rd Welsh Divn,i do not think that the 8thbtn was part of the53rd, together with No's 1,3,4 and5 Co's formed 'Scissorforce' which Joined ''Op Avonmouth'' in Norway
But the Commando link also says that an 11th co was formed for one specific operation, could that have been ''Operation Collar''
ivor
I think Frank was 8th Bn originally = 8th Unit. The crucial bit is between Jan and May 1940.
3455http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
thank you everyone - some very interesting stuff there.
My mum says that he always claimed to have been one of the very first trained up (although obviously according to his records never even did basic training!) and the fact he says he did his training in Benbecula would back this up I think because from what I have read the earlier commando groups trained in much more random locations.
Mum commented yesterday just how many people he knew after the war and she said she was always amazed by this. An uneducated lad from North Wales suddenly ended up being invited to important events as a guest in London, mixing with a much wider range of people than he normally would have done, he said his war work had enabled him to get his jobs after the war and now it makes her wonder who he served with, he obviously met a lot of people.
Anyone know if there are any records from any battalions about boxing? He said he boxed for the army and he was asked to turn professional at the end of the war. He knew James Lowther, Earl of Lonsdale but we are not sure if he met him during the war somehow (possibly to do with boxing given the Lonsdale family history with boxing) or if it was just he happened to go and work for him after the war (which we believe he did as he had a Steel Erecting company in the North East and we know my Grandfather worked in that industry) but it is also possible it is a combination and that was why they moved to the North East and he got the job.
I think Frank was 8th Bn originally = 8th Unit. The crucial bit is between Jan and May 1940.
3455http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
I am glad you are managing to keep more track of this than I am - I have to keep rereading everything
will check my notes but I am pretty certain Narvik was the only place name he ever mentioned. He had an in depth knowledge of very remote parts of Scotland and the islands which he couldn't have got any other way than training or being there for some reason in the war.
out of curiosity on his service and casualty form in the miscellaneous entries (f) it says ASG 26. what does that mean? (it definitely looks like a G not a C) I can work out most of the other things
https://www.flickr.com/photos/einnaf/ the first photo.
It is very hard to read some bits sadly as they are incredibly pale.
So I have gone through the hospital dates (his records are all on the flickr link above except his driving records as they were completely logical and very simple to follow) and some other key bits of info.
6/6/39 4th btn RWF
2/9/39 8th btn
6/1/40 Lance Corporal
27/5/40 Acting Corporal
23/6/40 50th Holding Battalion
27/8/40 Corporal
21/9/40 4th RWF Down Patrick
24/5/41 reduced to ranks - reason being allowing his men to be improperly dressed,failing to post a sentry at the right time and failing to inspect arms of his guard before dismounting (although dismounting what we have no idea)
1-3/10//41 hospital - scabies
14/3/42 31st btn RWF Lichfield
20-22/4/42 hospital - Bangor
1/3/42 special payment
16-24/4/43 hospital - Abergele
3-12/5/43 hospital - Portmadoc
12-23/6/43 hospital - Portmadoc
17/12/43 - RASC
so if he did go to Norway it could have tied in with the May 1940 promotion to acting Corporal? hospital visits that are unaccounted for are summer 1942 and summer 1943.
dcdl12976
18-06-2014, 16:25
(although obviously according to his records never even did basic training!)
This doesn't surprise me at all my dad did parachute training at RAF Cardington from Balloons however his record does not show this and according to official records the only Para training was done at Ringway Manchester.
Cheers
Dave
(although obviously according to his records never even did basic training!)
This doesn't surprise me at all my dad did parachute training at RAF Cardington from Balloons however his record does not show this and according to official records the only Para training was done at Ringway Manchester.
Cheers
Dave
oh thats good to know Dave. I feel much happier knowing that the fact his records are fairly lacking in some information doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Does anyone know what Med Cat C2 and Med Cat C2 (HS) means?
Baconwallah
18-06-2014, 21:28
C2 men were only fit for Home Service.
John
Thanks John. Wonder why he was only fit for home service then - especially given he hadn't gone anywhere anyway apparently. mind he had 4 unexplained trips to hospital so if they genuinely were illness related that would explain it but interesting that my Grandma never mentioned him having been in hospital (and they were married by then) or ever being ill.
Drew5233
18-06-2014, 23:33
Scrub my last - I have found the 9 Independent Coy war diary for May and June in another series (WO 168 Norway). It's only two pages, not much detail, I'm sacking it for the night now so I'll post the pages tomorrow.
Cheers
Andy
9 Ind Coy War Diary for May and June - Not much really. I suspect looking for post action reports at Kew may hold more info.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/841/o0xcj.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ndo0xcjj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/856/8mro.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ns8mroj)
[QUOTE=Drew5233;78396]9 Ind Coy War Diary for May and June - Not much really. I suspect looking for post action reports at Kew may hold more info.
/QUOTE]
Thank you for finding this
Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit, it would seem to me a good place to 'hide' men who would be immediately available for Special Duties, and would be a way of ''keeping them on strength'' with No Problem with them being sent for Special Training.
I wonder if the 'Hospital' entries were actually Debriefs, Medicals and some R&R after raids.
ivor
Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit,
ivor
The 8th, 9th and 10th Bn's were second line units, responsible for supplying the frontline units with replacements. At the onset of war, they were also required to supply a number of "volunteers" to form 9 Ind Company….Likewise the 4th, 6th and 7th Bn supplied the men for 2 Ind Company. It's important to remember, a large number of the frontline infantry units, which would have the best trained men were already in France with the BEF, so the supply of men had to come from units elsewhere.
I don't think the secrecy was available at that stage. These units were very much at the "Boys Own" stage of development. Very little funding, just enthusiastic officers, throwing up ideas, and putting together small missions, on a shoestring budget….Such as Op Collar…..Later that may have changed, as they began to produce results. Finally attached is a portion of the service record of Hugh Maines. A Royal Welchman from the 9th RWF, who served with Ted Jones MM, in 11 Ind Company in 1940 and took part in Op Collar. The units are clearly shown.
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Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit, it would seem to me a good place to 'hide' men who would be immediately available for Special Duties, and would be a way of ''keeping them on strength'' with No Problem with them being sent for Special Training.
I wonder if the 'Hospital' entries were actually Debriefs, Medicals and some R&R after raids.
ivor
this is what I have been starting to wonder. Interestingly he didn't even have leave recorded for his honeymoon which he definitely went on - only 72hrs but I am sure it would be recorded because it is on my Grandma's records (they came yesterday and whilst I haven't seen them my mum says if he was where he officially was then she can't see how they managed to meet where they always said they did and how they managed to see each other)
Still puzzled how/why he was compulsory transfer to being a driver at the end of 1943, why was he so unfit suddenly having been a very good boxer, worked down the mines before the war, being a labourer etc, hadn't been wounded because he hadn't been anywhere to be wounded, was never ill after the war and didn't have any injuries. none of it makes sense.
The 8th, 9th and 10th Bn's were second line units, responsible for supplying the frontline units with replacements. At the onset of war, they were also required to supply a number of "volunteers" to form 9 Ind Company….Likewise the 4th, 6th and 7th Bn supplied the men for 2 Ind Company. It's important to remember, a large number of the frontline infantry units, which would have the best trained men were already in France with the BEF, so the supply of men had to come from units elsewhere.
I don't think the secrecy was available at that stage. These units were very much at the "Boys Own" stage of development. Very little funding, just enthusiastic officers, throwing up ideas, and putting together small missions, on a shoestring budget….Such as Op Collar…..Later that may have changed, as they began to produce results. Finally attached is a portion of the service record of Hugh Maines. A Royal Welchman from the 9th RWF, who served with Ted Jones MM, in 11 Ind Company in 1940 and took part in Op Collar. The units are clearly shown.
3458http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
but this is the thing though isn't it -if any of what he said was true then it should be on his record like this where it shows what companies they were in. as it doesn't show any of this the only thing we can assume then is that he never did commando training in Scotland, never went to Norway and saw his friends killed, never saw any active service and was obviously very sickly randomly in the middle of the war for the only time in his life. unless there is a page of information missing or information recorded against another Frank Williams which I shouldn't think is possible because I would presume they used their numbers not names alone or he was doing something odd that for some reason they didn't record.
but this is the thing though isn't it -if any of what he said was true then it should be on his record like this where it shows what companies they were in. as it doesn't show any of this the only thing we can assume then is that he never did commando training in Scotland.
I still think its possible, a lot would depend on the quality of administration at a particular unit. Ted Jones MM, only spent a few months with the Ind Company, before moving to 2RWF….Some of the men probably only did weeks! Hugh above, stayed with the Commando fraternity. We do know that the volunteers for the Ind Company's trained in Scotland. We need an example of another 8th Bn man's records, who went to an Ind company to make a final assertion.
dcdl12976
19-06-2014, 20:59
Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit, it would seem to me a good place to 'hide' men who would be immediately available for Special Duties, and would be a way of ''keeping them on strength'' with No Problem with them being sent for Special Training.
I wonder if the 'Hospital' entries were actually Debriefs, Medicals and some R&R after raids.
I tend to agree Ivor my dad was in hospital when he was told he was going to the Parachute regiment, a week or so after he came out he and a couple of others were told they were not going to the Para regiment but would be going to an undisclosed location for training for "special Ops" this proved to be RAF Cardington (though the official records say no parachute training was undertaken there), he is adamant he did the training there and remembers the two large hangers that used to hold the airships in WW1. Also although he was still shown on Royal Berks strength he was not with them for the rest of the war being on special ops making several jumps and or landings in occupied Northern France. None of this is in his record so proving anything is very hard, I only have his word for it as does Anniek only have the word of the person involved.
Cheers
Dave
ivor
Dave - did your Dad get any random SPP at any point? I remember it being suggested pages ago that this could have been for something like parachute training.
dcdl12976
20-06-2014, 04:54
No I don't think so Dads Parachute pay was he says an Extra tanner a month, Parachute pay was and is I believe still paid as a monthly extra for the qualification.
Cheers
Dave
ah ok - that makes more sense. wonder what the payment would have been then.
Drew5233
21-06-2014, 12:56
No I don't think so Dads Parachute pay was he says an Extra tanner a month, Parachute pay was and is I believe still paid as a monthly extra for the qualification.
Cheers
Dave
You still get Parachute pay in the British Army today. Its around a fiver a day if you are serving with a airborne unit. You loose it if you get posted out.
what was at Beddgelert during WW2? I have found references to target practice ranges on the railway and RAF base about 20 miles away. And one reference from a commando in a book who comments on being in billets there. Just found something else commenting on Cwm Llan being used for commando training too.
Just curious because Mum said her parents went on their honeymoon there and stayed with a landlady in a B&B he knew well. It was commented that he was one of her favourites (he was always polite and a gentleman I believe). He knew the area very well when my mum was a child despite not having lived there as far as she knew (he was from Brymbo) or had a car until after the war when he borrowed one to take them there for a short holiday. Apparently he learned to climb there in the war.
ok so I think I am getting caught up in my own 'what if' theories but I was looking to see if any of the dates on his record could be significant so just humour me for a moment please.
so we have the date in May 1940 when he was made acting corporal which could have tied in with Norway in some way.
Looking at 1942 which is the one with the random hospital visits.
Is it possibly a bit too coincidental he changed battalion on March 14th when the St Nazaire raids were just being grouped together and then he had leave for 8 days from 1st April (his first leave recorded in the records and one of only 2 leave periods in the whole war that are noted, the other being 1-7 August 1942) and then hospital 20-22 April
Hi All.
Beddgelert is on the River Madoc a few miles inland from Porthmadoc. The River may well have been used for canoe training. with regard to a railway. The Welsh Highland Railway runs through the town,This is a Narrow Gauge system that has been in existence, in varying degrees since 1870 and is very Spectacular. The countryside in the area is Very Rugged so its use as a training area would not surprise me. It is a Major Climbing area Today.
With regard to Airfields.
RAF Llabeder is about 12 Km South of Portmadoc and RAF Llandwrog, Caernarvon is about 20 miles North.
Cwm Llan
http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/55495/cwm-llan-snowdonia/
Very Tough Country. Especially if the weather is not good.
I will keep looking for anything more at Beddgelert.
ivor
Thanks Ivor. I have been to Wales quite a few times but mostly on field trips (geology degree) to random remote places. My only memory of a fieldtrip to Snowdon area was it being February and it had snowed so when we were asked to draw the rock formations I stupidly (it was our first year) commented that they were covered in snow to which the lecturer replied 'then move it, you have hands!'
Interestingly there was an overnight raid to France I believe with just a few hours on land on the 21/22 April 1942. coincidentally Grandad was in hospital 20-22nd April. Perhaps he had transferred battalions in preparation for doing that rather than St Nazaire as I wondered last night.
EDITED - I got the dates wrong - he was in hospital on 18-20th April (it was logged on 20 and 22) so I can forget that possible explanation.
Hi All
A bit more info re Commando units and St Nazaire
http://stnazairesociety.org/Sections/armyforces.html
ivor
just found this re the Mountain Training. interesting
http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/british-commandos-mountain-training.html
ivor
both are very interesting - thank you.
The mountain training ties in with so many bits that he did say.
Hi.
Well. with what we seem to know about this puzzle, could he not have been in ''Hospital'' for medical checks, tests, etc before the raid.
ivor
yes that's true, hadn't thought of that. I suppose as well that it was really just to provide some sort of cover story that they came up with these things.
Interestingly that raid on the night of the 21st was originally on the night of the 19th.... perfectly possible the paperwork was completed for the original date and then when they had to redo it a couple of days later it would have been more confusing to add to the original cover?
I am starting to think I should write some sort of mystery book, I am quite enjoying exploring random far fetched possible theories :biggrinicon: (plus it is a distraction from the Disney princess dress I have had to make for one of my daughters and now the other one wants a dress too)
Hi all.
A few more bits of info.
My ref to the Welsh Highland Railway as not strictly correct. By 1939 the Railway was no longer in use, But the Track Bed as still in place. But the Festiniog Railway, another Narrow gauge system, was operating,until 1939, from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Portmadoc.
But something has appeared in my digging which may not be widely known.
Although this area may appear wild and remote, it was far from inaccessible.
Porthmadoc was served from the South By the G.W.R. from Birmingham via Shrewsbury, and Mid Wales along the Cambrian Coast where their were a number of airfields and Commando Training camps.
There was also the L.M.S west Coast Main Line London to Holyhead. With it's Branch Line from Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog along the Conway Valley.
There was also a Line from Ruabon on the Shrewsbury to Birkenhead Line Through Llangollen,Corwen ,Bala then on to Trawsfynned.where there was a camp with it's own Station and also a firing range, and Blaeneu Ffestiniog.
So not quite that remote.
ivor
sounds like it was a very busy place during the war then, funny because it sounded small and quiet. the locals must have had quite a shock.
Hi.
probably a shock. yes.
But may be not quite as much a shock as the following.
""On April 2 1942 they arrived by train in Porthmadog (with all their mules and horses in cattle trucks which were not very suitable for their animals) and set up camp...
They had white officers but there was an Indian doctor and an Indian vet. The mules and horses were taken out each day for exercise, three abreast, and used to take over an hour to pass, with the vet at the head of the troop on a white horse. His name was Malik Mohammed Khan. I think altogether there must have been about 1,000 men and 1,000 animals between Croesor and Nantmor.
The Indians were only here for just over three months in the spring/summer of 1942 but they made a big impression, partly because local people at that time had never before seen faces of a different colour. People remember the Indians as being very polite and well behaved. The area seemed very quiet when they left.
There is even a spot on the Roman Road from Croesor to Nantmor that is called Pont Traed y Mul to this day by the locals (The Bridge of The Mule's Leg). It was named after the occasion when one of the mules got its leg stuck in the gap between two large, flat slates over a drain, could not be extricated and had to be destroyed, leaving the leg stuck between the slates.
The men took the mules to the Dwyryd river at Penrhyndeudraeth to practise swimming a river - which later in Burma they had to do very often. At the beginning of the war the Indians were not armed, but this must have changed as they used to go to the firing range at Trawsfynydd army camp to practise firing.
The round, white tents of the camp would be in rows and the animals were tethered in rows on 'standings'. A bugle would be blown when it was time for feeding and watering the animals at the river.
One local I spoke to could remember the Indians kneeling, praying in rows and the murmuring sound of their praying." "
(an account of their time in Porthmadog courtesy of Giovanna Bloor from Llanfrothen)
This is an account of the Men of the Royal Indian Service Corps Mule Company with their 1,000 Mules. they came out at Dunkirk their story is the following.
http://www.cwgc.org/foreverindia/stories/men-of-royal-indian-army.php
Ivor
gosh it really was busy then! fascinating.
hello again, well I have now picked up my Grandma's ATS records from my mum - a nightmare of abbreviations so that will be fun but I can now see what my mum means, nothing matches up for them having met at all when they said they did. They said they met in January 1942. So in January 1942 Frank was in Killyleagh and she was in Lichfield. She ceased to be attached to NCOs in Lichfield at the end of January but he was then posted to 31st battalion RWF at Lichfield in February. I think she was in Chester by then although she does seem to have been back at Lichfield by their wedding going by the entries and it doesn't actually say she moved in any of that time just that she was no longer attached to those barracks. But if she was there then she would have known he was in hospital in Bangor that summer and that he had two week long periods of leave without her and she had one without him and he wasn't recorded as having the 72hrs leave she was for their wedding and they went to Wales to Beddgelert for a couple of days of honeymoon I believe. Unless they didn't and just said they had? Oh I am now even more confused.
Mum is starting to think she is a figment of her own imagination.
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