111 rwf

[Taff Wrexham]

On a marriage cert. I have a 'Private 111 RWF'? what exactly does 111 mean?

Tony

[Baconwallah]

Never seen that before, Tony. Could you perhaps post a scan?+

John

[ivor43]

hi.
looking at stuff.could it be
1 St Division, 1 St Infantry Brigade, 1 St RWF. A long shot but who knows.

ivor

[John Turner]

Maybe it's Roman numerals - (III and not 111) - 3 RWF?

[Baconwallah]

Ivor and John:

I have never seen any official document (birth, marriage or death certificates) giving anything other than the Regiment. The Regt would always be the same for a regular soldier, while brigade and division could change at any time. Besides, infantry battalion were at home were often not brigaded. Roman numerals were never used for regiments, only for corps.

John

[John Turner]

Not saying it should be which battalion etc - assuming this is under "Occupation" it could simply be ignorance on the part of the registrar. I've seen worse! It could even mean 'private class 3' and maybe all that was required was "HM Forces" no need for rank or regiment? Just a case of working out what they intended it to mean.

[Baconwallah]

And so have I, John, true enough. But I've seen hundreds of official (civvy official, I mean) docs and never a Roman numeral. That's why I'd like to see this certificate.

John

[ivor43]

morning all.

could it be 1/11 or 11/1.
or is there a possible chance it could be his service no. it is certainly odd.

ivor

[ivor43]

hi again.
Digging further the following may be of interest.???

https://ia600408.us.archive.org/24/items/manualofmilitary00greauoft/manualofmilitary00greauoft.pdf

This is the Manual of Military Law, and Part 111 refers to Reserves, Militia, Volunteers, Yeomanry and Territorial. Is there a possibility that 111 was used to indicate that he was one of these.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Very improbable, Ivor. If the marriage certificate says "Private RWF", it means that he was a Regular. Militia and Territorial soldiers would have given their civvy occupation.

John

[ivor43]

John.
I keep finding a vague ref to 111th of foot ( Loyal Birmingham Volunteers).Which may have a link to rwf. but can not find much about them, except that they may have been much to early to be relevant in this. any ideas.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

There were two, ivor, both in existence for short periods in the 18th century. We do not know how old Terry's certificate is, but it is unlikely that it is that old. Moreover, to the best of my knowledge neither had anything at all to do with the RWF.

Nice find, though.

John

[dcdl12976]

With poor writing and bad ink and pen it could be IN (ie the middle of the N is not there

[Baconwallah]

The most likely explanation, Dave. But we'll have to see a scan first.

John

[Taff Wrexham]

Bit of a hangover this morning; that + watching a lot of sport means I haven't looked at anything today, till now when I'm off to bed.

It is definitely 111. He was in 1st Bat RWF and married just before he went to France; killed in 1915.

[ivor43]

Morning all.
Found a ref to an:-
11th (Service) Btn formed in Wrexham on 18th Oct 1914. which went out to France early Sept 1915 but was at Salonika by 5th Nov 15.
Not sure how this stuff works, but could there have been a 1/11 (service)Btn. Or would the 11th (service) Btn be attached to the 1St Btn ?

[ivor43]

hi again.
Just found this. makes interesting reading especially the account of the Welsh assault on Grand Couronne.

http://www.1914-1918.net/salonika.htm

Total Respect for some Very Brave Men.

ivor.

[Baconwallah]

... but could there have been a 1/11 (service)Btn. Or would the 11th (service) Btn be attached to the 1St Btn ?

Sorry, Ivor, no to both. The '1/' prefix was only used by the TF as they formed 2nd and 3rd Line bns from the existing bns. And Service bns were not attached to Regular bns. The 11th was forming in Wales. the 1st was fighting for its life in Belgium.

John

[ivor43]

john.
thanks for the above. This link, which i am sure you know about is quite informative.

http://www.1914-1918.net/rwf.htm

as i am finding ref's to Co's eg 112/13/14. is it possible that this no refers to the Co that he was with.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

I've seen that page, Ivor, yes. I's informative and even gives more info than Brig James does in his British Regiments.

Coy: very unlikely. In the Great War the RWF used letters. There were coys with three digit numbers, but they were Labour Corps, Royal Defence Corps and such.

Anyway, without a copy of the certificate this is all conjecture.

John

[ivor43]

thanks John.
I agree it is conjecture.
But sitting here watching lots of small yachts on a calm blue sea with not a cloud in site. with 24 Deg i really don't mind.
but, we have examined and removed a lot of possibilities.


ivor.

[Baconwallah]

Sitting here with 13 deg watching the rain and the falling leaves in my garden I don't mind either, Ivor.

John

[Taff Wrexham]

Here's a snapshot.
3075

[ivor43]

thanks Taff.
but to be truthful that looks more like a 7 to me.


ivor

[dcdl12976]

Me as well Ivor thats the continental 7 to my eyes, certainly 111 though, so to my mind what we have is 111 RW 7 though the 111 may just be three L,s or three strokes and not mean anything at all for some reason.
Taff the date of the marriage is what.
Having seen many certificates i have never seen an entry like that

[Taff Wrexham]

I think that the '7' was the old 'joined up handwriting' style for a capital F (script capital F)

Marriage was in Caernarfon Oct 6 1914. William's Residence at time of marriage was: The Camp Wrexham. I think his wife was most likely in the Workhouse, she'd just had his baby in July.
William's army no. was 5804 and he was missing/killed 16 May 1915.

More info and separate questions to follow...

[Taff Wrexham]

William Clarke had previously enlisted in 4th???? SW Borderers 31 Mar 1903.
AND again to Special Reserve SW Borderers 11 Apr 1908.
Prior to joining 1st Bat RWF - 1st Sep 1914 in Wrexham.
He's commemorated on Le Touret Memorial.

Can anyone tell me about the fighting on the day he went missing/died?
In his previous two enlistments in the SW Borderers would he have been a regular soldier or Militiaman?

[ivor43]

hi
5804 William Davis 1 royal welsh. there is a MIC card but i don't have access

[dcdl12976]

Probobly this battle Tony

The Battle of Festubert 15 - 25 May 1915
The Battle of Festubert

Inception
The battle of Festubert was in effect a second phase of the recently failed attack on Aubers Ridge (http://www.1914-1918.net/bat11.htm). The strategic context and why this battle took place are explained on that page. Once again, the attack would take the form of a pincer attack with two assault frontages: a northern one along the Rue du Bois near Port Arthur and Richebourg 'Avoue, and a southern one at Festubert.
The tactical objectives are set
"The general plan of the main attack will be as follows:- To continue pressing forward towards Violaines and Beau Puits, establish a defensive flank along the La Bassée road on the left and maintaining the right at Givenchy. The line to be established in the first instance if possible on the general line of the road Festubert - La Quinque Rue - La Tourelle crossroads - Port Arthur. The position to be consolidated and the troops reformed and communication established. While this line is being established, a general bombardment on the whole front will continue with a special bombardment of the next objectives, viz: Rue d'Ouvert - Rue du Marais. When ready a fresh advance will be ordered on these objectives"
First Army Operation Order, 13 May 1915 .
British Order of Battle
First Army (Haig)
I Corps (Monro): 2nd, 7th, 47th (2nd London), 51st (Highland) and 1st Canadian Divisions
Indian Corps (Willcocks) : 3rd (Lahore) and 7th (Meerut) Divisions.
51st (Highland) Division switched from I Corps to the Indian Corps on 22 May.
The battle unfolds
13 May
The British bombardment opens with a total of 433 guns and howitzers firing on a 5000 yard front. The 36 six-inch howitzers would fire on the enemy breastwork parapet, to blow gaps through which the infantry could pour; the 54 4.5-inch would hit the German support lines, as would a portion of the field guns. The majority of the 210 eighteen-pounder field guns aimed at the German wire, firing shrapnel which was known to be an ineffective weapon for this task - but there was no High Explosive available. The bombardment was observed in detail: even early on there were reports of a high proportion of dud shells failing to explode - especially the howitzers. Firing day and night, more than 101,000 shells were fired.
15 May
10.00pm: all units of the attacking battalions are reported to be in position. On the left, the 2nd Division has 6th Brigade (attacking with 1/7th King's, 1/Royal Berkshire and 1/KRRC) and 5th Brigades (attacking with 2/Inniskillings and 2/Worcestershire) in front, with 4th (Guards) in reserve.
11.30pm: the first-line platoons of infantry leave their trenches and move out into No Man's Land, as the artillery lifts beyond the German support trenches. The advance of the 6th Brigade, West of the cinder track running from Rue du Bois to Ferme du Bois, is completed with few casualties. They occupy the German front and support trenches and begin to consolidate. On the left, between the track and almost as far as Port Arthur, the 5th Brigade runs into a more alert enemy and is hit by heavy machine-gun fire. Some men of the Inniskillings reach the German front line, and Brigade despatches the 2/Ox&Bucks in support. The same thing happens to the Gharwal Brigade of the Meerut Division (attacking with 2/Leicestershire and 39th Gharwal Rifles), which is advancing to conform with the 5th Brigade; they were to form the defensive flank, but they were also cut down in No Man's Land.
16 May
12.45am: 2nd Division orders a further bombardment as planned, to coincide with the attack to be made by 7th Division. The support battalions of 6th Brigade (2/South Staffordshire and 1/King's) are unable to leave the British front trench to move up to the captured position due to heavy cross-fire from the area between the two Divisional attacks, which had not been suppressed by the bombardment. German resistance in the area to the front of the captured trenches is stiffening. The support battalions of the Gharwal Brigade also attempt to move forward, but are immediately cut down and the movement ceases (1/3 London and 2/3 Ghurkas).
2.45am: The bombardment intensifies on the 7th Division front, including six field guns firing from the front line, opening gaps in the German breastwork (a tactic tried with some success by the Division at Aubers), although in places the lines are only 80 yards apart and great care is taken to avoid shelling the British troops forming up. 3.10am: first platoons of the 20th Brigade (led by 2/Scots Guards and 2/Border) leave their front line, to close up with the German before the barrage lifts. Considerable casualties are incurred as they advance too far, into the British shells.
3.15am: although the 2nd Division has failed to reorganise ready for a supporting advance, the 850-yard frontal attack of the 7th Division goes in. 22nd Brigade on the right, attacking across Duke's Road towards the School House and the Northern Breastwork (a sandbag-parapet German communication trench), with 2/Queens and 1/Royal Welsh Fusiliers in the first wave, is hit by heavy machine-gun fire. The advance is halted for an extra 15 minutes shelling. On their left, 20th Brigade are slowed by a deep ditch, and crossfire from the Quadrilateral position on their left front, untouched by the bombardment as it lay in the area between the two Divisional attacks.
3.45am approx.: 22nd Brigade moves forward, now supported by 1/South Staffordshire on the right. Despite suffering more casualties, they reach the German front and work along the trench system using bombs (grenades). 5.40am: Haig redraws the boundary of the area to be attacked, and halts any fresh attacks by the Meerut Division, directing the Sirhind Brigade to move to the support of 2nd Division.
6.00am: the Queens and Staffords of 22nd Brigade reach the Northern Breastwork, and the bombers of the latter battalion continue to move through the system of communication and support trenches facing Festubert. They secure the position from Stafford Corner to the old German front, and also La Quinque Rue in the area: the objective of the attack had thus been achieved. By 6.30am, the Royal Welsh Fusiliers have advanced too - now joined by some 2/Royal Warwickshire and 2/Scots Guards of 20th Brigade - and meet up with the Queens near the Orchard. The Scots Guards are forced to withdraw a little, after being hit by British artillery (firing by the map and timetable, unaware of the precise position of their infantry) and by German fire from Adalbert Alley. They also repulse a German counter-attack. Further attempts proved fruitless and costly, and by 9.00am the attack has come to a halt. The men in the most advanced positions near the Orchard and along the Northern Breastwork were by now under intensive German shellfire. Monro.
10.00am General Monro (I Corps) directs attacks to close the gap between the Divisions, by converging advances towards Ferme Cour d'Avoué. The 1/Grenadier Guards of 20th Brigade, having moved across No Man's Land by a new trench being dug by the 1/6th Gordon Highlanders, bomb their way along 300 yards of enemy trench, but can not advance over open ground, being assailed by fire as they make the attempt. No units of the 2nd Division are yet in position to make an attack. Meanwhile the bombers of 1/South Staffordshire (joined now by some bombing specialists from Brigade) continue to take more of the German trench system, 800 yards as far as Willow Corner (facing the front of the 47th Division) being captured in yard by yard fighting: they capture more than 190 Germans in doing so. 7.30pm The 1/Royal Welsh Fusiliers near the Orchard end of the Northern Breastwork withdraw to La Quinque Rue, forced out by lack of support from 20th Brigade on their left, and heavy German shelling.
During the night, the remnants of the Queens, RWF and Border were withdrawn; the position of the British front being: 1/7 Londons (temporarily attached to 22nd Brigade) holding the line from Willow Corner, meeting the 1/South Staffords holding the Northern Breastwork as far as Stafford Corner, where they joined with the 2/Scots Guards, who continued to the junction of Prince's Road (coming down from Chocolat Menier Corner) and Rue des Cailloux. 11.45pm Having assessed the situation reports coming in from the Divisions and Corps, First Army decides to continue the offensive of I Corps and place all other actions on hold. Orders were given for the gap between the two Divisions to be closed, with a view to continuing an advance towards Chapelle St Roch and Rue d'Ouvert.

[dcdl12976]

16 May
12.45am: 2nd Division orders a further bombardment as planned, to coincide with the attack to be made by 7th Division. The support battalions of 6th Brigade (2/South Staffordshire and 1/King's) are unable to leave the British front trench to move up to the captured position due to heavy cross-fire from the area between the two Divisional attacks, which had not been suppressed by the bombardment. German resistance in the area to the front of the captured trenches is stiffening. The support battalions of the Gharwal Brigade also attempt to move forward, but are immediately cut down and the movement ceases (1/3 London and 2/3 Ghurkas).
2.45am: The bombardment intensifies on the 7th Division front, including six field guns firing from the front line, opening gaps in the German breastwork (a tactic tried with some success by the Division at Aubers), although in places the lines are only 80 yards apart and great care is taken to avoid shelling the British troops forming up. 3.10am: first platoons of the 20th Brigade (led by 2/Scots Guards and 2/Border) leave their front line, to close up with the German before the barrage lifts. Considerable casualties are incurred as they advance too far, into the British shells.
3.15am: although the 2nd Division has failed to reorganise ready for a supporting advance, the 850-yard frontal attack of the 7th Division goes in. 22nd Brigade on the right, attacking across Duke's Road towards the School House and the Northern Breastwork (a sandbag-parapet German communication trench), with 2/Queens and 1/Royal Welsh Fusiliers in the first wave, is hit by heavy machine-gun fire. The advance is halted for an extra 15 minutes shelling. On their left, 20th Brigade are slowed by a deep ditch, and crossfire from the Quadrilateral position on their left front, untouched by the bombardment as it lay in the area between the two Divisional attacks.
3.45am approx.: 22nd Brigade moves forward, now supported by 1/South Staffordshire on the right. Despite suffering more casualties, they reach the German front and work along the trench system using bombs (grenades). 5.40am: Haig redraws the boundary of the area to be attacked, and halts any fresh attacks by the Meerut Division, directing the Sirhind Brigade to move to the support of 2nd Division.
6.00am: the Queens and Staffords of 22nd Brigade reach the Northern Breastwork, and the bombers of the latter battalion continue to move through the system of communication and support trenches facing Festubert. They secure the position from Stafford Corner to the old German front, and also La Quinque Rue in the area: the objective of the attack had thus been achieved. By 6.30am, the Royal Welsh Fusiliers have advanced too - now joined by some 2/Royal Warwickshire and 2/Scots Guards of 20th Brigade - and meet up with the Queens near the Orchard. The Scots Guards are forced to withdraw a little, after being hit by British artillery (firing by the map and timetable, unaware of the precise position of their infantry) and by German fire from Adalbert Alley. They also repulse a German counter-attack. Further attempts proved fruitless and costly, and by 9.00am the attack has come to a halt. The men in the most advanced positions near the Orchard and along the Northern Breastwork were by now under intensive German shellfire. Monro.
10.00am General Monro (I Corps) directs attacks to close the gap between the Divisions, by converging advances towards Ferme Cour d'Avoué. The 1/Grenadier Guards of 20th Brigade, having moved across No Man's Land by a new trench being dug by the 1/6th Gordon Highlanders, bomb their way along 300 yards of enemy trench, but can not advance over open ground, being assailed by fire as they make the attempt. No units of the 2nd Division are yet in position to make an attack. Meanwhile the bombers of 1/South Staffordshire (joined now by some bombing specialists from Brigade) continue to take more of the German trench system, 800 yards as far as Willow Corner (facing the front of the 47th Division) being captured in yard by yard fighting: they capture more than 190 Germans in doing so. 7.30pm The 1/Royal Welsh Fusiliers near the Orchard end of the Northern Breastwork withdraw to La Quinque Rue, forced out by lack of support from 20th Brigade on their left, and heavy German shelling.
During the night, the remnants of the Queens, RWF and Border were withdrawn; the position of the British front being: 1/7 Londons (temporarily attached to 22nd Brigade) holding the line from Willow Corner, meeting the 1/South Staffords holding the Northern Breastwork as far as Stafford Corner, where they joined with the 2/Scots Guards, who continued to the junction of Prince's Road (coming down from Chocolat Menier Corner) and Rue des Cailloux. 11.45pm Having assessed the situation reports coming in from the Divisions and Corps, First Army decides to continue the offensive of I Corps and place all other actions on hold. Orders were given for the gap between the two Divisions to be closed, with a view to continuing an advance towards Chapelle St Roch and Rue d'Ouvert.

There is a full account here http://www.1914-1918.net/bat11A.html

[ivor43]

ok guys.
ancestory has the following.
Ref WO 372/5/199095. William Davis 1 RWF Private 5804.
Also
Ref Wo 372/4/149762 William Clark 1 RWF Private 5804

Errr HMMM ok. ideas would be handy?

sorry that should be the National Archives.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

William Clarke had previously enlisted in 4th???? SW Borderers 31 Mar 1903.
AND again to Special Reserve SW Borderers 11 Apr 1908.
Prior to joining 1st Bat RWF - 1st Sep 1914 in Wrexham.
He's commemorated on Le Touret Memorial.

Can anyone tell me about the fighting on the day he went missing/died?
In his previous two enlistments in the SW Borderers would he have been a regular soldier or Militiaman?

Looks like he enlisted in the 4th (TF) Bn SWB first, for a 5 year period, thenenlisted in the SWB Special Reserve. In other words, first a Territorial, then a Special Reservist. As the Militia was reformed as the Special Reserve in 1908, just before he enlisted, he was never a militiaman (nor a regular).

The RWF number points to enlistment in the first few days of September 1914. No doubt it was because of his previous experience that he was almost immediately posted to a fighting battalion, 1 RWF.

And you're right, it is a capital F.

John

[Baconwallah]

ok guys.
ancestory has the following.
Ref WO 372/5/199095. William Davis 1 RWF Private 5804.
Also
Ref Wo 372/4/149762 William Clark 1 RWF Private 5804

Errr HMMM ok. ideas would be handy?

sorry that should be the National Archives.


ivor

5804 Davies was a Regular.
5804 Clarke (landed 11/12/1914) was a Special Reservist.

The RWF, as all other regiments, operated several numbering series concurrently. There was a Regular series for the 1st and 2nd Bns, a Special Reserve series for the 3rd Bn and five separate series for the four Territorial Force Bns - the Merioneth and Montgomery Bn had s separate series for each county. So in theory seven men could all have the same number.

John

[ap1]

Can anyone tell me about the fighting on the day he went missing/died?


As DCDL quotes, the Battle Of Festubert, two separate attacks against the German positions. The battle is extensively covered in Regimental Records Vol 3, largely drawn from the diary of Capt Stockwell OC A Company(Buffalo Bil in Sassoon's book). Some stats from the above records:

The battle resulted in an average advance of approx 600yds, although A Coy under Stockwell advanced 1200yds.

After going over the top, in the advance across the 120yds of no mans land, A Coy got hit by German MG fire, his men who survived that fire, got straight into the enemy trenches. At that point they were safe from the MG fire, this however caught the subsequent rifle companies that followed Stockwell's men over their trench parapet. The dead included The Commanding Officer Lt Col Gabbett. Indeed from the last two companies to climb out of their trench, only two of their officers survived, which would suggest massive casualties amongst the Other Ranks. It reads a little like the final scene from Black Adder. That comment is not meant as humour, but if you've seen it, you will understand the picture the records conjure up.

Stockwells CSM; Frederick Barter on reaching the German first line, managed with 8 men, by grenading as he moved along the german trench, to secure 500yds of it. He also forced 3 German Officers and 100 men to surrender and disconnected 11 underground mine leads. For these actions he was awarded the VC.

Stockwell commented on a "Half hour of strenuous hand to hand fighting" on reaching the German trenches. All Stockwells company officers died during the rush to that initial enemy trench or elsewhere within the enemy line.

Finally, the small statistic tells it all.

1st Bn RWF - Manning Levels 16 May:

Before the assault = 25 Officers and 806 Other Ranks

After the assault = 6 Officers and 247 Other Ranks.

The above is based on the 1928 volume of Regimental Records. Some of our experts may have more recent revised details.

[ivor43]

thanks John.
it just seems odd that the NA does not make any distinction between them. both are shown as 1RWF no TF or SR or anything.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

it just seems odd that the NA does not make any distinction between them. both are shown as 1RWF no TF or SR or anything.

The original documents make no distinction, so how could the NA know?

Some regiments did in fact add battalion numbers to their TF and Service numbers, useful in the case of the TF but not in the case of the Service battalions of the New Armies as their enlistments were numbered in the Regular series and therefore consecutive. You'll find that practice reflected in the NA database. But the RWF always used just the service number.

John

[Taff Wrexham]

This guy is driving me nuts.
I can't find him in the census.
I find his nok PARENTS - correct Christian names and address but wrong surname; although the mother's Maiden name was Clarke; she can't be his mother unless she was havin' a bit on the side.

To help me a bit further...

As a Territorial or as a Special Reservist would he have HAD to have been living in the area that he enlisted in. In other words could he have enlisted in Welshpool in 1903 then moved away and perhaps turned up once a year to be marked present?

Tony



Looks like he enlisted in the 4th (TF) Bn SWB first, for a 5 year period, thenenlisted in the SWB Special Reserve. In other words, first a Territorial, then a Special Reservist. As the Militia was reformed as the Special Reserve in 1908, just before he enlisted, he was never a militiaman (nor a regular).

[Taff Wrexham]

Here's another one of interest. In William's records, there is a suggestion that he was found dead and buried in the trenches by his comrades, one of whom was Private P Regan. His no. looks like 1159 or 4459 or 1459 or 4159. IS there such a person?

[ivor43]

hi guys.
despite Johns explanation re the No sequence. Have a look at Davis. just a hunch.
and just out of interest, what name was he married under.

ivor

[ivor43]

hi.
i read this earlier and did not think it relevant, and i am still not sure if it works.
There is another (111) and that is in para 392 of Kings Regulations 1912

http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/para-3.html

Not likely to become an efficient soldier.

this has got me wondering if he wasn't suitable as Clark prior to hostilities. could he have joined up for war service as Davis.


ivor

[ap1]

John T mentioned this earlier. Might it not be just 3 RWF….with the registrar choosing to write the Bn number that way.

[Baconwallah]

As a Territorial or as a Special Reservist would he have HAD to have been living in the area that he enlisted in. In other words could he have enlisted in Welshpool in 1903 then moved away and perhaps turned up once a year to be marked present?

A Special Reservist received four to six months training upon enlistment, and then another two weeks or so each year. As long as he was able to present himself at the Depot in Wrexham when required, and for the required period, the Army couldn't care less where he choose to live. As an example, the 1st Bn in October 1914 had one Special Reservist who lived in Macclesfield. Not exactly next door.

For the Territorials it was a bit more difficult as they were required to attend training once a week (hence the nickname 'Saturday Night Soldiers') and living close to the drill hall was a definite advantage. A TF Company was a very local affair, each with its own drill hall. Again as an example, 4th RWF (Denbighshire) had Companies (and drill halls) in Wrexham, Gresford, Ruabon, Denbigh, Coedpoeth, Gwersyllt, Rhosllanerchrugog and Llangollen.

John

[Baconwallah]

Here's another one of interest. In William's records, there is a suggestion that he was found dead and buried in the trenches by his comrades, one of whom was Private P Regan. His no. looks like 1159 or 4459 or 1459 or 4159. IS there such a person?

Regan, Patrick, 4459 Pte

Born Cardiff c.02/1893. Dock labourer. Enlisted 3 RWF 16/11/1911. Posted 1 RWF 11/11/1914. Landed 23/11/1914. Shrapnel wound right thigh 25/09/1915. To UK 30/09/1915. Posted 3 RWF 12/12/1915. Returned to France 11/01/1916 to 24/08/1916, bn unknown. Posted 3 RWF 11/11/1916. Posted Training Reserve (Cpl) 01/09/1917. Demobilised (Cpl) 17/04/1919.
MM (LG 23/08/1916).

John

[Baconwallah]

John T mentioned this earlier. Might it not be just 3 RWF….with the registrar choosing to write the Bn number that way.

As William was a 3rd Bn man, this is certainly a logical explanation. But it's the first time I have seen a battalion number written in Roman numerals. The Registrar must have had a bad hair day.

John

[John Turner]

High V then :biglaugh:

[Taff Wrexham]

High V then :biglaugh:

Nooooo William was 1st Batallion.

[John Turner]

Aw nuts! Back to the drawing board.

[Hywyn]

Still high five I reckon. Although he was killed with 1st Battalion he was a 3rd Battalion man (Special Reserves). The 3rd Battalion did not fight as an unit (it was UK based) but sent men to the various Battalions that needed them.

Ivor (post 39). William Davies and William Clarke were two different men each entitled to the relevant medals and each with a set of extant papers. Even if their papers had not survived the existence of the medal authorisation would surely give rise to the application of the Occam's Razor rule i.e
""simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones"

[Taff Wrexham]

His records say 1st Battalion, as does the CWGC memorial. However what your saying makes sense. Does anyone agree disagree with Gwilwil? Can Baconwallah dig up the same record as he did for Pvt Regan?

[ap1]

His records say 1st Battalion, as does the CWGC memorial. However what your saying makes sense. Does anyone agree disagree with Gwilwil? Can Baconwallah dig up the same record as he did for Pvt Regan?

Gwilwil and Baconwallah are two of the most accomplished experts on the RWF of the Great War period….worldwide…indeed at least one of them is a published author on the subject. So I would accept what they're saying is almost certainly correct. Their source references are often better than the RWF Museum. So top level research and free at point of source. Can't be bad.

During a lull in the battle on the night of the 17/18th, the battalion recovered the bodies of over 100 men from No Mans Land.

[Baconwallah]

A few words about the Army Reserve as it was in 1914.

A man could enlist for "7 and 5", seven years with the Colours and five years with the Reserve (the latter could be extended another four years, the so called "Section D' reserve). Men who were interested in a bit of army life - and more importantly the additional source of income which I believe was 6d daily - but did not want to become full time soldiers could join the 'Special Reserve', which meant four to six months initial training and then a week or so of training annually until the end of their contract. The function of the Special Reserve was to provide more trained men in an emergency in which the Regular Reserve might well prove insufficient. The Special Reserve was organised as an infantry battalion, numbered immediately following the Regular battalions. Hence the Regular battalions of the RWF were the 1st and 2nd Bns, the Special Reserve was the 3rd Bn.

In 1914 all Regular battalions needed reservists and special reservists to make up their numbers, sometimes only a few, sometimes more than 60% of the original strength.

A man posted to one of the Regular battalions from the 3rd (SR) Bn would thus be a 3rd Bn man but serving with the 1st or 2nd Bn. Administratively he would be taken over by the 1st (or 2nd) Bn, but he would still be 3rd (SR) Bn. The CWGC would not have made the distinction - Clarke was with the 1st Bn when he died, and that is what the CWGC records.

Hywyn, I seem to be unable to find Clarke's service record which you say is still extant. Could you PM me a link, please? I can then summarise his career as I did for Regan. Also a useful addition to my book.

John

[Taff Wrexham]

OK. I'm happy with that. It all makes sense; fog of war and all that. I'll wait to see if Baconwallah can post a summary of William Clarke's service career and then close off the thread. In the meantime I'll open a new one. :winkicon:

[Taff Wrexham]

Bloody hell I'm a Lance Jack!

[Aled Roberts]

For what it is worth, I agree with the thoughts so far, III = 3/RWF