Help - 6th bn royal welch fusilier

[annemarie]

Hi to anyone that can help.

I have been researching my family tree and my great uncle was in the 6th bn Royal Welch Fusiliers. and died on 16th April 1945. His name is William george Holbrook born on 27 July 1926 and his fusilier number is 14838527. I have got his details from the cwgc website and know he is buried in Becklingen war cemetery. I have been trying to research what happened on the day he died as i am curious to where the 6th bn were? I have several names for books to read up on from your website.

Also when i research the 6th bn RWF on google alot of others ome up i.e 53rd division and 158 brigade. Are these linked?

I was wondering if anyone could help me curb my curiosity in this as the more i read the more i want to know.

Thankyou so much in advanced for any information

[Baconwallah]

They were linked, Annemarie. The 6th Battalion was part of the 158th Brigade which in turn was part of the 53rd (Welsh) Division.

Swiper is our resident expert on the 53rd Div. I'll ask him to have a look at this thread. May take few days.

John

[annemarie]

Thankyou very much for getting back to me so quickly John! I really appreciate it! thanks for confirming thought i was going off the beaten track! ;)

[Baconwallah]

I just spoke to Swiper. He'll have a look at this thread tomorrow morning to see what he can do for you.

John

[annemarie]

ok thats fab looking forward to it ;)

[Baconwallah]

Some additional info: 6th RWF was transferred from 158th Bde to 160th Bde (also 53rd Div) on 26th Aug 1644.

John

[ap1]

Some additional info: 6th RWF was transferred from 158th Bde to 160th Bde (also 53rd Div) on 26th Aug 1644.

John I believe the changes to the RWF brigade(158) was partly an effort to reduce the effect on morale at home in Wales, caused by so many casualties from the same regiment, many from the same towns and villages. Additionally below:

Here's a quote from a living history website: http://53rdwelshdiv.webs.com/158brigade.htm


"The 158 (Royal Welch) Brigade consisted solely of Battalions of the Royal Welch Fusiliers until 3rd August 1944 - where after the casualties suffered during Operation Greenline the RWF Battalions were spread across the Division to minimise casualties - due to problems with reinforcing understrength Brigades full of members of one Regiment."

[Bob Lake]

The history of the Royal Welch Fusiliers during World War ll is told in a book called the Red Dragon, Copies do turn up form time to time on the internet but can be pricey. The Regimental Museum can help with providing copies of relevant passages. Although stalled at the moment the Regimental Records of the Royal Welch Fusiliers Volume 5, covering WWll, is also being rewritten. - Bob

[Aled Roberts]

His number is not a direct RWF enlistment. It is in the block assigned to the General Service Corps. So he was transfered in at some stage.

"The General Service Corps' main function was to act as a holding unit for Officers and specialists who have not been assigned to other units or corps; these are primarily reservists. The GSC is usually only active in wartime."

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
Re Al Poole's thread the 4th 6th and 7th battalions were re-formed from a single Brigade to minimise losses to the RWF. The new set up was as follow:
158 brigade was re- formed by the 7th R W F the 1st East Lancs and the 1/5th Welch regiment. this was done on the orders of Gen Montgomery.

The 71st Brigade formed by the 4th R W F 1st High Land Infantry 1st Ox & Bucks.The 71st Brigade was commanded by Brigadier V Blomfeld.


The 160th Brigade was re-formed by 6th R W F the 2nd Mons and the 4th Welch Regiment. The 160th Brigades was commanded by Brigadier C.F.C.Coleman.

I append the following info from the "Red Dragon" By Lt Commander Kemp and John Greaves.

In early 1944 the C I C of the 21st Army Group was General Paget.

General Montgomery took command after Gen Paget.

It was decided that the "Flash" was to be worn only by officer's and W.O's. Other ranks were only allowed to wear the "Flash" whilst in England (U K ) with their best B.D.

At the end of May 1944 all the C.O's were briefed for "D Day " but the landing place was a secret.

Early on the Morning of the 6th of June, the Brigade were awoken by the sound of Aircraft and Gliders over head.

On the 15th of June orders were received by for 158 Brigade to move to the marshalling areas on the 17th.


The Brigade was split into 2 groups on the 15th of June.One consisting of all the transport and C O's and all who normally travel in vehicles left Maidstone.

All through the following day the convoy lay of "Juno" beach, on the 27th how ever unloading began.

The second group consisting of the remainder of 158 Brigade left their line in Maidstone about 13-00 hrs. On the 19th in preparation for an early start the Battalions were divided up into L.C I's of 202 men each.But at 22-00 hrs news came that the embarkation was postponed because of high winds and rough seas. by the 23rd June the wind dropped and the troops drove off to embark for Normandy.

I was unable to fit the chronology of the demise of Fus Hollbrook firmly down to the 16/4/1945 because the book only has about two and a quarter pages on the 6th Battalion and the chapter is mainly comprised of the actions of the 4th, 6th and 7th R.W.F. and is a bit disjointed. The Thread By Richard Ward is interesting in as much as was Fus Hollbrook R.T.U'd or even E.R.E.

It may well be that more informed members may have a defining reason for my inability to go forward until the 16/4/1945 the Brigade may well have reached the Reichswald by then but this is a guess I will dig deeper.
Regards RBD aka jungle 1810.




.

[annemarie]

wow so much information, not sure where to start! thankyou for all the information its very interesting

[annemarie]

Also wasnt sure what this sentence meant, 'The Thread By Richard Ward is interesting in as much as was Fus Hollbrook R.T.U'd or even E.R.E.'

Sorry not very good with these abbreviations as new to this ;)

[ap1]

Also wasnt sure what this sentence meant, 'The Thread By Richard Ward is interesting in as much as was Fus Hollbrook R.T.U'd or even E.R.E.'

Sorry not very good with these abbreviations as new to this ;)

E R E (Extra Regimental Employment). Possibly he's been attached to another unit for a specific task. RTU'd (Returned to Unit). In what context are these details provided Annemarie?

[jungle1810]

Hello annemarie & Al Poole,
I must apologise for using abbreviations in my thread, sorry annemarie. My thanks to Al Poole for explaining them to annemarie. Al has come to my rescue many times before. I will post another more detailed thread in my next thread. I hope this will help all concerned in this thread.
Regards RBD

[annemarie]

ah thats ok Jungle1810 i appreciate all the information im getting.

Ap1 this is the context it was written in... 'I was unable to fit the chronology of the demise of Fus Hollbrook firmly down to the 16/4/1945 because the book only has about two and a quarter pages on the 6th Battalion and the chapter is mainly comprised of the actions of the 4th, 6th and 7th R.W.F. and is a bit disjointed. The Thread By Richard Ward is interesting in as much as was Fus Hollbrook R.T.U'd or even E.R.E'


In my research i have found out that others had cards throughout the war which was stamped when they were drafted somewhere or have specific duties they were called for. Is there a way to find these to an individual?

Thanks again

[jungle1810]

Hello annemarie,
A SHORT HISTORY OF THE (CAERNARVON & ANGLESEY ) BATTALION THE ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS NORTH WEST EUROPE JUNE 1944 TO MAY 1945.
EXTRACT FROM PAGES 118 TO 120 - 16 APRIL 1945.

The remainder of the night (15/16 April 1945) was spent undisturbed by the enemy. In the Vethem battle together with the Greys we knocked out five 105 millimetre and two 75 millimetre guns. Again the men had been very impressed by the way that the tanks went right into the enemy regardless of anti tank gun fire.

IDSINGEN
At dawn (19 April ) we set off again across a scrubby and wooded country. rather like the Aldershot training areas. A few small parties of the enemy got out of their slit trenches surrendered as we passed through their posts, a force of sixty or more tanks rolling across the other wise peaceful country side, was probably more than these very tired Germans could stomach. The tanks had a drill whereby they fired a few rounds from their 75 millimetre guns, followed by a burst of machine gun fire, when ever they approached a village. It had a demoralising effect on the enemy, and cheered us up a lot. It was now 24 hours since-we had a meal and the tanks needed more ammunition and petrol, but an armoured patrol was sent off by the Greys to see if the bridge two miles north was still open. As they approached they saw the bridge blow up, and they were fired at by small arms from the far side of the stream.

BENDINGBOSTEL.
The group then moved off on a new axis (Towards ? ) Bendingbostel, and attempted to find an alternative crossing over the stream, but the ground was wet and quite impossible for for tracks. \by the use of local timber conveniently placed in a road block at the bridge, we laid a wooden road way to the stream, and a little later a scissors bridge was thrown across. The advance continued again along a sandy tracks between thick fir woods. there were a few minor engagements, but in general we met no resolute opposition until we approached the main road running across our axis just short of BENDINGBOSTEL. It waas here that an escaped French prisoner gave us some very important information including pin pointing the of an 88 millimetre gun covering our approach. BENDINGBOSTEL itself lay in a hollow at the far side of the ridge. into the village, and was flanked on each side by a wood some 300 yards square, otherwise the immediate approaches were were absolutely bare with out any cover. It was soon evident that the enemy were holding the two woods in strength. A squadron/ company group was detailed to deal with with each wood after a preliminary bombardment. The tanks went in and were successful although one platoon was reported by the Greys to have leapt out of of it's Kangaroo and to have charged valiantly in the wrong direction, before realising their mistake. listening on the Greys C O's set one heard a tank subaltern calling "88 just opened up 400 yards to my left what action should I take. Prompt and incisive came his C o's reply "knock the B*****D out. the subaltern's reply came "Wilco out" A few seconds later we heard sharp bursts of fire from the tank's gun s and then came the report "The 88's had it.
BENDINGBOSTEL was stubbornly defended, and it was not until last light that the bridge on the far side of the village, was reported intact, and even then there was still some small arms fire going on in the village, and shells were falling regularly from the north east. One 88 millimetre and three 105 millimetre and about ten 20 millimetre guns were taken. The attacking companies reported that there were about 50 enemy dead in in the two woods , where they had been trapped by our artillery and mortar fire. the battalion then occupied the village, or at least that part of it which was not in flames until early next morning (17th April So annemarie this is where Holbrook was, on he day he was
killed in action. the RWF lost 3 men killed on the 16th of April 1945. But the war diary does not name them. How ever I have dug deeper and found the following Fus Woolf 14826192, Fus Payne 14733447 and Fus Holbrook 14838527 were the names of the three men killed according to my records. hope this info is of use to you. Regads R B D aka jungle18190

[jungle1810]

Hello annemarie,
Re your thread number 15 I had quite some trouble trying to pinpoint what happened on the 16 of April in the Red Dragon. So I tried a short cut and contacted Colonel Richard Sinnett who was the adjutant of the first battalion R W F when we were posted to Jamaica in 1951. Richard is working on Volume 5 of the Regimental history which covers the second world war. Richard provided me with the info from the war diaries for the 16th of April 1945 and when I phoned him with your query he e mailed me P D Q and I posted all the info he supplied me with The names of the 3 men who were K I A on the 16th of April 1945 was gleaned from my book of casualties from the R W F in the second
world war. I will pass them onto Col R Sinnett for his perusal. In pint of fact the 6th lost some 23 men K I A in April 1945 from the 10th of April through to the 30th of April.
P D Q means pretty darned quick K I A means killed in action. aka means Also known as,
Regards R B D aka jungle 1810

[jungle1810]

Hello annemarie,
A bit more info from the e mail sent to me by Col Sinnett. The extract I posted is from the 6th R W F history and it tells what happened on that day, which was one of the great successes for the battalion, advancing with an armoured regiment and mounted in Kangaroo tracked armoured personnel carriers.It also gives a link to the Becklingen
war cemetery but I believe you are aware of this link.
Regards RBD

[annemarie]

Yes i have the link on Becklingen war cemetery, thats where all of this started! ;) Thankyou for all the information it has been very interesting wasnt expecting so much was nice to know what happened and im glad it was one of their great successes.

your a star! :spinny:

[ap1]

At home I have a book on the 6th Bn in WW2. Written by the Bn at the end of the war. Im away at the moment, but will check it when I return, late Nov. Hopefully The forums expert "Swiper" may provide you will an update at some point.