very confused of west wales or malta

[ivor43]

hi all.
can anyone out there help a very confused old (ish )pensioner.
having grown up in the wrexham area i was always under the impression that the RWF was involved in the Zulu War at Rorkes Drift
as we are going on a guided holiday to S.A. in August which involves a trip to Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift, i thought i would 'gen up ' on the RWF role in the conflict. with the intention of doing a photo shoot and putting them on the forum.
Now here comes the interesting bit. and i have literally just spoken to 'chow 'to confirm that he was of the same opinion. i am sorry to tell you guys there is NO record anywhere, that i can find, that the RWF was involved in the Zulu Wars. and no RWF mentioned in the list of V.C's awarded.
Chow tells me that the film Zulu was required watching during 'basic training' and they were told that the RWF were awarded 3 V.C's.
i am confused and so is chow. but it gets better.
i have been looking on several web sites but mainly Wikipedia.one site tells me that the 23 was raised on 16th .mar 1689 by Lord Chirbury. at Ludlow.another that in1702 it became ''the Welsh Regiment of Fusiliers '' and the Royal was added in 1713.
However under the wikipedia entry for the 24th reg the South Wales Borders it states that they were at Rorkes Drift (1879) but they did not become the SWB until 1881.
are we confused. good.
so what was the 24/SWB prior to 1881.from 1751 -1881 it was the 24 ( 2nd Warwickshire) rof.
O.K. now I GIVE IN.
so what have i found.. Not only that the RWF was'nt there so did'nt get any V.Cs. but the SWB was'nt there so did'nt get any V.Cs. there was'nt even a Welsh regiment there it was the 2nd Warwickshires.

right.i now have a headache and am going to take some pills and lie down. but if anyone out there can explain WHAT THE HELL is going on i would be very grateful.

ivor.

[jungle1810]

Hello Vori,
Re your thread on Rorkes Drift. To simplify matters I append the following info. Check up on the history of Mr Haldane (Later Lord Haldane)
also Mr Childers & Mr Caldwell in respect of the Army reforms and Regimental numbering system used circa 1860 until 1881 when Colonel Dering Born in Kent and who raised the 6th regiment of foot (The Warwickshire Regiment)also at the time was known as the "24th " you can gain much further info by completely ignoring Stanley Bakers film. I suggest the following books for you to read. Zulu Hart by Saul David, Rorkes Drift by Adrian Greaves, Zulu by Saul David, A Solemn Mockery By Doctor Jonathan Hicks, plus Volume 1 of Who's who in the Zulu War of 1879 The British, then Volume 2 of Who's Who in the Zulu War of 1879 the Colonials and Zulus, both written by Adrian Greaves and Ian Knight. There are some thing like another 10 authors who have written books on this subject. To generalise only about 11 % of the defenders at Rorkes Drift were Welsh and some of these were of doubtful Welsh origin. In fact the breakdown reads as follow 49 English, 18 Monmouth English because Monmouth was part of England in 1879,16 Irish, 1 Scot,14 Welsh. It was also very highly unlikely that the defenders at the Drift ever saw the skies over Brecon. As Regiments go none of the following Welsh Regiments ( the RWF the South Wales Borderer's, The Welsh Regiment. were any where near to either Isandlawana or the Drift. Another point is that Chard was senior to Bromhead by 3 years rather than the 3 months as stated in the film. Bromhead was born in Versailles FRANCE and was one of 3 so called "Foreigners" who won a V C at the Drift the others being Cpl Schiess and Surgeon Reynolds born in Dublin. And Sgt Dalton who laid down the defence system in the Drift was gazetted on the 17/11/ 1879. Dalton organised the defence of the Drift because Chard and Bromhead were convinced they could pack up and out run the Zulu's Dalton assured them that this was impossible and so they remained at the Drift. The Myth mainly stems from the work of Childers & Caldwell by the movement of "B" Company of the 6th Regiment of foot (The Warwicks)to the South African War.to join the 1st Battalion the Warwick's who were slaughtered at Isandalwana There was one former RWF man in the film Jack Hawkins but that is purely co-incidental.
REGARDS RBD

[ivor43]

O.K. thanks for the info.however if you look at the list (attached link ) it shows the 6th and 24th as totally different units
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Regiments_of_Foot#1st.E2.80.9310th_Foot
although this clears up part of the problem it does not explain where the myth of any welsh involvement has come from. i have thought from childhood that the RWF were there.chow has believed since basic training that 3 V.Cs were awarded to RWF.
this is very odd. i will continue digging, but i found this very interesting
http://www.rorkesdriftlegacy.com/the_battle_13.html
finally i find it remarkable that the SWB can claim all the Honors etc for the defence when they did not come into existence for another 2 years.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

It was also very highly unlikely that the defenders at the Drift ever saw the skies over Brecon.

You might be a bit hasty there, Don. The 24th Foot was renamed the SWB in 1881 because the relocation of its Depot in 1873 had given it close links with South Wales. The new Depot was, er, in Brecon.

John

[ivor43]

ah, thank you john. illumination. i had'nt seen that, it is'nt on any of the 24th's web pages i looked at.
So in 1879 although still the 2nd Warwickshire they were based in Brecon. so i have the Welsh connection. so i have to accept that i have been wrong. no big deal i have been wrong before, a couple of times... :) .
When i was speaking to chow yesterday he said something which i have just thought may be significant.
you will have to correct me if i am wrong. when you join up do you sign to a specific unit or do you chose a unit after basic training. if so then i can understand the use of '' Zulu '' and its associated V.Cs. as an illustration of the heroism, courage, etc , of the Welsh, as is the March 'Men of Harlech '.
if basic is not specific to a particular Welsh unit then i can begin to see how this confusion may have come about.

thanks

ivor

[Vic Hughes 53]

Ivor,

Individuals can ask to join the Royal Welsh, then once in training will be assigned to one of the two Royal Welsh battalions, that assignment is dictated by the manning requirements and needs of the battalions.

The 2nd Battalion celebrate Rorkes Drift with an array of regimental activities, these range from a regimental dinner for the Sgts Mess, where the guest is an RSM from a local engineer regt (22 Engr Regt), young soldiers will be taken to the Officers Mess to be shown the colours and receive a presentaion on the battle from a young Subletarn.

The 1st Bn do not in general celebrate Rorkes Drift as until the merger in 2006, Rorkes Drift had absolutely no link with the RWF's history

The regimental quick march for the Royal Welsh is the Men of Harlech.

Vic

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, I can only describe the situation as it was in the period I know about, the years before the Great War. In those days a man chose his preferred Regiment when signing up. Frank Richards describes this in Old Soldiers Never Die: he joined the RWF because of the Flash and was then sent to the Regimental Depot for basic training. It was the same in the 1960s and I suspect it's still the same.

I myself never heard any rumour about the RWF being at Rorke's Drift. No idea where that might have come from.

Anyway, I'm not surprised you are confused. The lineage of British infantry regiments is a very confused and confusing subject at the best of times.

John

[chow]

This is very interesting as for years i have thought that our regiment (the rwf) was instrumental in the battles.

when i joined i signed for the RWF.

and all through training was given the impression that the RWF had been there...

What with zulu day...

Totally confused now....

[jungle1810]

Hello,
In the 1760 Army list it shows the 23rd as the 23rd Regiment of Foot (The Royal Welch Fusiliers) in this 1760 list it shows 105 Foot regiments on this list but there are 77 not named as specific regiments
In the 1800 Army list the first time it shows the WARWICKS and they were granted the ROYAL prefix in 1832, and in this list the Warwick's are numbered as the 6th Regiment of Foot, and the 24th are listed as the 2nd Warwickshire's in this list only 93 Regiments are named.
in the 1881 Army list the 24th are then shown as the the South Wales Borderer's.
So the search centres around MR Haldane (Later Lord Haldane) who broke the golden rule that decreed all 1st Battalions serve abroad and the 2nd Battalion were used as a cadre and for supplying reinforcements for all time ex and wounded to be returned to England and make up any losses for men K I A. But Haldane altered this in his Army reforms and numbering system. Because he with drew the 2nd Battalion of the 24th (The Warwickshire Regiment and seconded them to fight in the South African War under general Wolsey. The rest is history and both Childers and Caldwell between them cancelled the 2 battalions and renamed the 24th who were known as the 2nd Warwicks to the S.W.B Baconwallah My mention Of Brecon not being used by the men of the south African war was used in context of prior to 1881. The rumour about Brecon attracting a
large number of recruits is probably exaggerated as my mention was of Brecon prior to 1881 when Childers and Caldwells diktats took effect
Regards RBD aka jungle 1810.

[ivor43]

hi all.
thank you all for the info. it has answered my initial queries,not in the way i expected.but i will still do a photo shoot and link it to the forum for anyone who may be interested.
however this has taken me into areas both interesting and confusing eg i was not aware that traditions could be handed on in the case or units amalgamating.so via the 24th/2nd warwics/SWB/RRW/RW the RWF now have the honors of the Zulu War.
as you said john it is very confusing. but the list i linked to jungle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Regiments_of_Foot#1st.E2.80.9310th_Foot
seems to be quite good.
the reason, as pointed out by jungle, that 77 of the units were not named in the 1760 list is that.
''On 21 August 1782, the Commander-in-Chief of the Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander-in-Chief_of_the_Forces), Henry Seymour Conway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Seymour_Conway), issued a regulation giving an English county designation to each regiment of foot other than those with a royal title or highland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands) regiments ''
this thread seems to be moving in a different direction. but this is ok as there seems to still be some confusion, chows basic training etc, that could be sorted.i wonder how many others on here have had a similar belief.
i wonder,if military basic was similar to civy police. i, with others, joined Denbighshire force in dec 1966 but we were sent to Bridgend for our basic. there was no instruction with regard to our county S.Os. or procedures. the Sgt instructors were from different Welsh Forces. where chow was expected to watch Zulu we were expected to watch The Blue Lamp.not quite as entertaining.
if recruits from the different Welsh units trained together then i can easily imagine traditions of the units getting confused.
basic training is a very confusing time.so much beer to consume,so many local birds to chat up (at Least ). not to mention drill, weapons. coping with those very friendly NCO's and the charming well mannered and quiet spoken RSM. as well as officers who'se inteligence level often seems open to question. very confusing. :))

ivor

oh i found the info re the move to Brecon... on the wiki page about the film under a section Historical Inaccuracies.never bothered to look there.

[Baconwallah]

I didn't know about the movie webpage, Ivor, thanks. Will have a shufti one of these days. I found the Brecon move in one of my books.

John

[ivor43]

just found this. dont know if you know about it or if it is of interest.
http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=6242


ivor

[Bob Lake]

The film Zulu is a classic which I never tire of watching.

Yet the film created a myth that these were Welshmen shaking in fear behind the melie-bag walls, this is thanks to its producer Stanley Baker creating the scene of Ivor Immanuel singing 'Men of Harlech' in the face of the advancing Zulu impees; a scene of great drama but one which has no historical basis or precedent at all.

The fact is that those terrified soldiers were principally Englishmen of B Coy the 2nd Battalion of the Warwickshire Regiment (24th of foot). A Battalion that was renamed The South Wales Borderers some nine years later. But it is also a fact that the home barracks of the 2nd Warwicks (24th) at this time, were those we all know and love at Brecon. It is therefore not at all surprising that three Welshmen were amongst the eleven VC winners at Rourke's Drift.

I attach a photo taken after the battle, and if anyone can spot a grenade cap badge apart from the Royal Engineer, you have better imagination than eyesight.


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/58382000/jpg/_58382011_58382006.jpg

B (Roukes Drift) Company of 2nd Battalion The Royal Welsh are undoubtedly the successors of these gallant men and it is right and proper that they honour their principally English forbears.

Recruits at the Depot were taught Regimental History as part of their syllabus and anyone who has subsequent thoughts that the RWF has anything to do with Roukes Drift has joined me amongst the ranks of the permanently confused. My argument is that age has given me too much to remember.

Bob

[steve carey]

If the R.W.F was not at the drift where did the spears and sheilds come from that were in the little museum at the welch depot, I was told thy come from the Battle at the Drift.

[jcj]

If the R.W.F was not at the drift where did the spears and sheilds come from that were in the little museum at the welch depot, I was told thy come from the Battle at the Drift.

Steve
When I did my recruit training in 1967 the Depot trained recruits for the RWF, SWB and Welch Regt. There were exhibits from all the Regiments and the Zulu display probably came from the 24th the South Wales Borderers.

[ivor43]

hi all.
i may have solved the mystery, thanks partly to steve mentioning , the Welch Depot.
having got out the digging equipment again i came up with this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Brigade
this confirms what i have been thinking.
You guys were trained at Brecon which is the Welch Brigade's Depot. not specifically the RWF Depot. so i wonder if, as with the amalgamation of individual units, the Brigade, when the Depot's amalgamated, has assumed the honors and traditions of the three units ( SWB/The Welch Regiment/RWF), and teach them as Brigade History not unit history.
This might explain the confusion,why steve remembers the shields and spears,why chow the 3 V.C's. this was history assumed by The Brigade and taught as tradition of the Welsh units.NOT specific unit history.
I hope this may have been helpful and would like to know your opinions.


ivor

[Rob12]

Whilst at Crickhowell during training back in 68 was taught about Regimental History from a Royal Welch Fusilier perspectus often touching on elements of other regiments history within the Welsh Brigade,this was before the amalgamation to The Prince of Wales's Divisional Depot.

[ivor43]

hi all

just when you think you got something sorted, someone chucks a spanner in the works. in this case a big one. during the course of this thread i have searched a lot of stuff relating to the 3 units.and nowhere have i found any reference to Crickhowell or Cwrt Y Gollen. so more digging.

i have established it was in use in WW1. WW11 it was used mainly a U.S Army Base (see link)

http://www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/showthread.php?6860-Army-Camps-Barracks-Wales

I have found evidence of the official opening on 10th May1963. with a link that brought me back here

http://www.rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/showthread.php?13270-Welsh-Bde-Depot-Crickhowell-10-May-63

obviously rob 12 was there in 1968.
the following link to hansard re a question raised by the local MP.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1987/jan/29/cwrt-y-gollen-camp-crickhowell

also a video of the Last junior soldier Passing Out Parade and a ref to the last passing out parade in October 1986.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d5LoYF8Kwo

but the only reference to any unit having their Depot there, is in the Hansard question where the MP says it was the SWB/The Welsh Regiment.

i am now puzzled again by this apparent lack of info. any ideas anyone ???

[jungle1810]

Hello Vori 101
I have sent a detailed account of who was trained in Brecon from the time it was built and who trained there.I have posted this info to two of the forum members one of whom has answered my e mail and one who has not answered me. If you care to send me your private e mail address through the forum (A P M) I can send you the full details as an attachment.
Regards jungle 1810