Jeff Otten RWF - (British Honduras) Belize 1953

[mlsander]

My name is Mike Sander from Luling, LA. USA and I’m doingfamily research. I found a website with photos of Welsh Fusiliers inBelize in 1953 (http://www.rwfphotos.co.uk/ (http://www.rwfphotos.co.uk/)) and sent the contact person the note below. He suggested that I post an inquiry on this forum.

My wife is from Belize and her dad was in the Britishforces stationed there in the 1950’s (she was born in 1954). I’veattached a photo of him – his name is Jeff Otten. If you know of any waythat I might be able find any information on him or his family, I’d appreciateyour help. He left Belize shortly after my wife was born and she and hermom completely lost touch with him.

We don't know much more about him or his unit but I'm fairly certain he was a member of the troops shown in the photos on the website mentioned above.

Best Regards,
Mike Sander

[ap1]

Hi Mike, A warm welcome to you.

We have assisted with similar projects in the past. Quite often its a case of just pointing you in the right direction and filling in some background info. I would emphasise that we would always wish to protect the privacy of the UK part of the family. I'm sure you understand.

Looking at the history, it appears that the D Company 1st Battalion RWF arrived in what was British Honduras(Belize) by ship between the 19-27 March 1951. The remainder of the Battalion were based on Jamaica and other islands of the West Indies. By Sept 1951 D Company had been relieved by B Company, they returned to Belize in Sept 1953. In Oct 1953 the whole battalion was urgently deployed to British Guiana. D Company also joined this group, leaving 35 men behind in Belize. Once this was dealt with local garrison life continued. Regimental Records notes that D Company departed Belize for the final time on the 8th March 1954, rejoining the battalion for the trip home. They left behind several members of D Company who had married local girls on Belize.

We do have some members on the Forum from that era, who may recall. Lets see what transpires. Do you have any other information about the family?

[jungle1810]

Hello Misander,
In about December 1951, I was posted back to "B" Company after carrying out relief work after the hurricane (Charlie) that struck Jamaica. I left Jamaica in the Copinsay a small ship and the Captains name was Peter Brady,we stopped in Grand Cayman on our way over to Belize. On my arrival in Belize I was met by C.S.M. Mac Donald M.M. our Company commander was major Tolhurst, by this time Major the Lord Wynnford had left to become an A.D.C to General Sir Gerald Templer."Oscar Slater remained in Jamaica.I was immediately asked by "Mac" to carry out the duties of Provost Corporal. I had L/Cpl Davies 13 and L/Cpl Wheeler as my subordinates. I know that an ex RWF man Len Watts who lives near me married a local Girl her Christian name is Norma. I remember going to Xmas Mass in Belize with the Batty family I think they ran a taxi business in Belize, as well as the local watering hole I distinctly remember a local girl who worked in the "Frozen Bucket as Juanita, she was very good to me and my mate and let us have cigarettes and booze and we squared her up on pay day. I also remember a Sgt Mercer who married a local girl. In my opinion I may well be wrong but the man in the photo looks like he was also on the provost staff. But the difference is that in "B" Company in December 1951 I did not wear any white blanco equipment, that is to say my webbing belt was just scrubbed and the brasses were polished, and we did not wear the type of gaiters shown in the photo in your first thread. In fact we wore a scrubbed webbing belt and we had ammunition boots with blue hose tops and a form of small loose khaki puttees in place of the normal gaiters
. The reason for this was any form of blanco could cause a rash and the medics stopped all companies that served in Belize from using any colour blanco. But in fairness the British army has sent infantry men to Belize for many years later. I will phone Len watts for more details of many of the local girls and the name of the man in the photo, and I cannot say I remember him by name.
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

[ap1]

Good spot Don.

Zooming in on the picture, he is wearing a brasard on the right upper arm, of the type worn by the Regimental Police.

[mlsander]

Thanks very much for the replies. I understand the privacy concerns and don't wish to jeopardize anyone's. Belize is quite a place and we try to visit every other year or so but spend most of our time now on the Cayes. Most of the old families that my wife remembers and grew up with are no longer in Belize City. Occasionally, she still runs across some folks that remember her mother and grandmother. By the way, the Batty family ran the bus service --- "Batty bus" and as far as I know it is still in operation.

Regards,
Mike Sander

[mlsander]

Here's a little additional info that may be useful. Jeff's full name was Fredrich Jeff Otten but everyone called him Jeff (not sure about the spelling of Fredrich). He was also supposed to be a very good amateur boxer -- my wife says she was told he was a "Golden Gloves" champion.

My wife's mom's name was Victoria (Vicky) Forman. Vicky's dad was William Hector but he may have already dead at the time. He was a lumber merchant in Belize City. Vicky's mom was Estelle Jane Fuller.

Hope this helps.

Mike Sander

[Aled Roberts]

On the Cyprus medal roll there is this chap :

22793371 Cpl F L Otten 1/RWF


I have no trace of anyone else by this surname. My guess that the number and rank would be about right? I never rely on people’s initials on Medal Rolls, they are wrong an awful lot of the time. There could of course be another Otten who didn't qualify for any gongs.

[ap1]

Here's a little additional info that may be useful. Jeff's full name was Fredrich Jeff Otten but everyone called him Jeff (not sure about the spelling of Fredrich). He was also supposed to be a very good amateur boxer -- my wife says she was told he was a "Golden Gloves" champion.

Hope this helps.

Mike Sander

Hi Mike,

I would estimate that Frederick would have been born a maximum of 5yrs either side of 1930. Does the family have any idea where in the UK he came from? Regarding Richards detail about the medal, that will definitely be your man. The extra piece of the info regarding his first name pretty much confirms that.

[mlsander]

My wife has always been told that Jeff was from Wales but no other details. I have searched birth records and census data that are available on-line but haven't yet come close to locating any families that might be these same Otten's. Can you tell me what the number sequence for Cpl. Otten means and what year that medal was awarded?

Regards,
Mike

[ap1]

The significance of the number is mainly that it will allow you to apply for his military service record if he's died and you can manage to locate the death certificate. It does tell you when roughly the number was issued, but this is of little interest as we know he was in Belize in the early 1950's and that he served with the 1st Bn in Cyprus during the EOKA Emergency between the dates 31st March 1958 − 6th Dec 1959.

I can also confirm that LCPL(Lance Corporal) Otten is mentioned in Regimental Records. He was part of a group that met HM The Queen on the evening of the 26th Nov 1953 at the Kings House, Kingston, Jamaica during her Commonwealth tour.

I don't know the views of the other researchers, but I think you have a really good chance in making some headway in this project. Its an unusual surname but you will need to persevere and be prepared for a small financial outlay. I would recommend two fee paying sites that you will need to join.

1. www.ancestry.co.uk (http://www.ancestery.com(This) This will allow you to search for UK births/deaths/marriages)

2. www.192.com (http://www.192.com(This) This gives you access to electoral(voting) registers in the UK). As an example I have done a cursory search and found a Freddy J Otten living in a property in South West London in 2002(you need to purchase credits to view the info). This site also tells you who the person is co-habiting with.

We'll be quite happy to guide you as you follow the trail.

[Aled Roberts]

I think Al has supplied you with everything you need for your quest.

The servcie number quoted would have been issued in the early 1950's - so everything is fitting in.

Richard

[ap1]

I've had a good look through Ancestry back to the 1960's. No deaths that standout. Its possible he may still be alive. Of course his name may not be registered as "Otten", perhaps an alternative spelling such as "Oaten" has been used. Regarding the welsh connection, there is currently a large clump of Otten's living in the Swansea area, listed on the 192 site. It may be worth a cold call to one of the older persons listed to see if they recall him.

[mlsander]

Thanks Gentlemen for all your help. I am a member of Ancestry and you've given me additional info to help with my search. I will also checkout the other site you mentioned. If I find anything interesting, I'll let you know.

Regards,
Mike

[chow]

Sorry if this is not appropriate to the thread.

I am sure that when we were in Belize in 74 some one came to the gates at air port camp,
making inquires about some one who was in Belize in the 50s,but this was a lad of about 20/22.
a strange coincident i think.

[jungle1810]

Hello,
I phoned Len Watts last night, he informed that his wife's maiden name was Norma Weston. Len also told me that Cpl Williams 22 (Donkey Jaws) married a local Honduran lady her Christian name was Rosa Cpl Roberts also married a local girl,she was Maria Espat, her family owned a cafe in Belize. Now for some more info not entirely comprehensive Jeff Otten came from N Wales, Len knows Jeff very well He was indeed an amateur boxer.and Len knows him from support company. I have not found any evidence to suggest he was a golden gloves champion. He did how ever box against an Honduran Police team in Belize versus an RWF company boxing team, in the RWF team was Ianto 07, Mark Berry, Jeff Otten, I am still unable to come to terms with the picture shown in the first thread. The battalion dress code in our tour of the Caribbean was from 06-00 hrs to 18-00 hrs was Blue/Black beret, Badge (The hackle was optional in barracks) we wore short K.D. (Khaki Drill)trousers ammunition boots, blue hose tops and a light khaki type of puttees. From 1800 hrs to reveille one could wear mufti with suitable shoes, or if going out in uniform the code was KD long trousers and KD jacket with the sleeves rolled down and and the beret badge and hackle, the flash was held in position with press studs to facilitate easy removal for the dhobi wallahs and every one had a scrubbed belt, suitable shoes. The terrain in the camp was pretty flat. I cannot remember the "Sand bag bunker" that Jeff was photographed in front of and am still unable to come to terms with the white belt and gaiters. For example my number was 22541801 and I joined in September 1950. But this info might be of use to the forum readers.
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

[ap1]

Thanks Don, very useful. Could you possibly ask Len if Jeff was a Caernarfon lad? If he can remember his home location that would be a big step. This will assist the family when looking for birth certificates etc.

Many Thanks

Al

[jungle1810]

Hello Al,
Will do I phoned a bit late last night. But I will have another go.
Regards Don

[mlsander]

I should mention that I don't know when or where the photo was taken. Jeff wrote a quick note and signed the back but there is no date. My suspicion is that the photo was after he left Belize and sent in the mail - probably 1954 - 1956 timeframe. My wife has another photo with a note to her but we have not been able to find it. She's sure it was the same picture but I've torn the house apart trying to find it without any luck. She found the posted photo in a box with her old papers.

mls

[Bricoates]

Thanks Don, very useful. Could you possibly ask Len if Jeff was a Caernarfon lad? If he can remember his home location that would be a big step. This will assist the family when looking for birth certificates etc.

Many Thanks

Al

I remember the name Otten in Caernarfon, I will enquire and post any info.
Brian

[ap1]

Cheers Brian, We've noticed a large cluster in Caernarfon and Swansea.

[jungle1810]

Hello All,
It is now time to correct some of my previous information, albeit done in all honesty at the time of writing. Firstly when HMT Dilwara arrived in Jamaica "B" company of the RWF dis embarked and were deposited in Up Park camp, then "B" company of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers boarded her, The Dilwara then went to Belize and picked up "D" company of the "Skins"and "D" company of the RWF took over from "D" company of the "Skins". The reason for this is two fold firstly Up Park camp was unable to cope with 2 battalion or even part of two battalions. The Dilwara returned to Kingston and the remainder of the "Skins" boarded her, and the remainder of the RWF dis embarked by the same token the Dilwara was unable to cater for two battalions or even two part battalions aboard her. Now to clarify the white blanco on the Regimental police belts and gaiters. In truth I was in Jamaica for a very short time, because the battalion was split and at any given time we had at least two rifle companies on detachment.Hence my possible over sight after 62 years. I phoned Len Watts this A M, he informed me that to the best of his knowledge Jeff came from N Wales, he cannot be more specific than that.In relation to the Regimental police and their dress. I only saw "Kong" Frimstone once and that was when I intended to go on the town, "Kong" stopped us at the guard room and ordered us back to "B" company lines.This was because trouble had flared up in the Island of Grenada, we were weighed and took our ordinance with us ready to fly to Grenada, I was number 1 on the Bren at this time, and as "Kong" was in mufti I did not pay much attention to his dress. But in truth the Regimental police did wear white belts and gaiters in Jamaica. So when I came back from Grenada we were hit by hurricane "Charlie" and I done work on hurricane relief.It was after I finished hurricane relief I was posted to re-join "B" company. So putting things into perspective I was provost Corporal in a rifle company on detachment and as such ,
I wore the clothing described in my previous threads plus of course I did not wear a regimental arm band either. How ever when Jeff was in Belize he was in either Support company or on detachment from HQ company. So he would have been wearing the "Uniform of the Regimental Police" ie White belt and gaiters.I also found out that the site where he had his photo taken was in all probability in the rear of the camp where the M.M.G's were lined up on fixed lines to deter the "United Fruit Company" ( an illegal organisation of renegades who's ambition was to over run the British detachment ) and at the far reaches of the camp facing Stanley Airport,where a building was erected to contain the ammunition and other accoutrements needed by the company on detachment in Belize. To the best of my knowledge this building was not on site when a rifle company occupied Belize.Sorry but the above thread may clear the issue rather than muddy the waters.
Mea Culpa, RBD

[ap1]

UPDATE:

This query is progressing well. Brian Coates has taken a lead and has established the location of Jeff's family and met some members. Obviously Brian will be updating Mike privately as he gathers more information. Sadly Jeff has passed on, but hopefully with Brians good work we will be able to fill in the gaps for Jeff's daughter.

[Bricoates]

UPDATE:

This query is progressing well. Brian Coates has taken a lead and has established the location of Jeff's family and met some members. Obviously Brian will be updating Mike privately as he gathers more information. Sadly Jeff has passed on, but hopefully with Brians good work we will be able to fill in the gaps for Jeff's daughter.

I have just received a PM from Mike, his Wife remembers that Jeff mentioned two sisters, this information and a member of the Caernarfon Otten family having Jack (Jacob) Sid and Joe in the Family and no mention of Jeff leads me to think that this is not the right Family, I will be phoning Sid's Son tomorrow he will be able to confirm this, I hope.
Brian

[ap1]

Looking through Ancestry there is a lot of Otten's in the Caernarfon area. There is also quite a few in the Liverpool area. Swansea and Whitechapel in London seem to have the biggest concentration during the 1920's/30's/40's

[Seboni121]

My name is Mike Sander from Luling, LA. USA and I’m doingfamily research. I found a website with photos of Welsh Fusiliers inBelize in 1953 (http://www.rwfphotos.co.uk/ (http://www.rwfphotos.co.uk/)) and sent the contact person the note below. He suggested that I post an inquiry on this forum.

My wife is from Belize and her dad was in the Britishforces stationed there in the 1950’s (she was born in 1954). I’veattached a photo of him – his name is Jeff Otten. If you know of any waythat I might be able find any information on him or his family, I’d appreciateyour help. He left Belize shortly after my wife was born and she and hermom completely lost touch with him.

We don't know much more about him or his unit but I'm fairly certain he was a member of the troops shown in the photos on the website mentioned above.

Best Regards,
Mike Sander




Hi I have confirmed that's he is my uncle "jack' not "jeff" please contact me if you require any further information

[Bricoates]

I have been in touch with Kevin Otten the nephew of "Jeff",( real name Jack) he can confirm that the photo is of his uncle Jack, he has also registered with the Forum,"seboni121" and will keep in touch with Mike and update the Forum if he has any further news, I shall pass on his details to mike by PM

Brian

[ap1]

Brilliant. Excellent news Brian. Job well done.

[Seboni121]

I have already had contact from the OP and things are moving along, thank you for the initial contact from Brian

[ap1]

Hi Mike,

The next stage will be to obtain Jacks service records. You require two main pieces of the jigsaw to obtain this. Firstly Jack's Service Number. Thanks to Richard Ward you already have this detail. Secondly the Death Certificate. To obtain a copy of his death certificate, if you have found the relevant details of Jack's death on Ancestry, using the information provided apply through the General Records Office(GRO), link shown below:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ (http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/)

The order can be made online, the certificate will then be posted to you. Later on you will need to include a photo copy of Jacks death certificate when you move onto the next stage and request his service record from the UK Ministry of Defence.


Obtaining The Service Records:

Follow the below link.

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html

This will take you to the Veterans Website and explains the procedures. Your wife will need to complete the Certificate of Kinship. Then post the completed form including the Death Cert to:

Army Personnel Centre,
Historical Disclosures,
Mail Point 555,
Kentigern House,
65 Brown Street,
Glasgow,
G2 8EX

The cost is £30 and it could take several months.

In terms of documentary evidence. We already know that Jack was in Jamaica on the 23rd Nov 1953. As it is documented in regimental records that LCpl Otten met The Queen on that day at Kings House, Jamaica.

Keep us posted

Al

[Baconwallah]

Well done, gentlemen!

John

[Gwyn Nicholas]

This has been a great thread to follow. Well done lads.

[mlsander]

On the Cyprus medal roll there is this chap :

22793371 Cpl F L Otten 1/RWF


I have no trace of anyone else by this surname. My guess that the number and rank would be about right? I never rely on people’s initials on Medal Rolls, they are wrong an awful lot of the time. There could of course be another Otten who didn't qualify for any gongs.




I was reviewing all the posts in the thread and wanted to follow-up on this. Would this have been in 1958/59?

mls

[richie264]

You took the words out of my mouth Nik.

[ap1]

I was reviewing all the posts in the thread and wanted to follow-up on this. Would this have been in 1958/59?

mls

Thats correct Mike. He would have served with the 1st Bn in Cyprus during the EOKA Emergency sometime between the dates 31st March 1958 − 6th Dec 1959.

[jungle1810]

Hello,
Len Watts phoned me this AM. he has a photo of Jeff/Geoff Otten from his time in Belize. Len is going to make a copy and I will pick it up from Len and put it on the forum. This will also help in regards to narrow down the various dates referred to from the mid fifties etcetera.
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

[mlsander]

Gentlemen,

It's been quite a while so I thought I would post a final update for your information. With all of the help I received from the Royal Welsh Forum was able to make contact with an Otten family in Caernarvon and it seemed like we were both convinced (Wales and USA) that our "Jeff" Otten was in fact "Jack" Otten. However, for some reason the communications from the Otten's in Wales stopped and I haven't heard a word from them since our first round of e-mail and photo exchanges. I have gotten a copy of his death certificate but access to any detailed military records is restricted to the official next-of-kin. As a result, we have reached an impasse.

In any event, I thank all of you for your help and still plan to check in to the Forum periodically.

Best Regards,
Mike Sander - Luling, LA, USA

[ap1]

Thanks for the update Mike, thats very thoughtful of you. I'm sorry you haven't been able to move forward. However i'm sure someone in the future on the Welsh side will be curious and re-establish communication with you. Its the nature of families.

Best Wishes

Al

[Keith Jones 989]

I wish to place on record that mlsander (OP) made a donation to the Forum Fund, for which we are extremely grateful.