John Robert Simon, 5th Btn

[Old Barrian]

As a newcomer, please forgive my ignorance but my wife has recently inherited her grandfather's war medals and this has set me off.

I know that Pte Simon's number was 679 and, later, 240118 and I have obtained his Medal Card. In addition to his 'normal' medals, he received the Territiorail Force Efficiency Medal in 1920 so I think this means that he must have enlisted in 1908. He served in Gallipoli where I believe he was injured but presumably he continued to serve. His Medal Card is endorsed 'Disemb 5-4-19' - could this be related to his discharge date or his return from overseas?

If anyone can lighten my darkness or suggest where I look next, I would be most appreciative.

[Baconwallah]

Disemb(odied) means the date he was demobilised in the UK.

No service record or pension record to be found, unfortunately. I'll do a search for other members of 5/RWF later, to get some idea of the enlistment dates.

John

[Old Barrian]

Thanks for that. I did wonder about the possible meaning of 'Disemb' but I'm not very au fait with military terms. If he was demobbed in 1919, that presumably means an earlier enlistment date (1899 or earlier) for him to receive the TFEM.

[Baconwallah]

Not necessarily. Demobbed is not the same as discharged. The MICs sometimes give the demob date, sometimes the discharge date, often neither.

Enlistment dates for the TF are confusing. It appears to have been common for men to re-enlist (with the old number) in 1908, when the Volunteer Bns became TF Bns. That means the the older members all had a (new) enlistment date in the spring of 1908, irrespective of how many years service they had already. This is certainly true for 4/RWF. Other bns may have started a completely new number series. It's still largely unexplored territory.

John

[quail]

No. The TFEM was awarded for 12 years service [with conditions], and indeed War service counted double. This will give a potentially much earlier enlistment date than you infer, perhaps about 1910. I have not studied 5th battalion numbering in much detail but they [unlike many others] started from number 1 in April 1908. Numbers in the 6XX range were issued in 1909. Number 1615 was issued on the outbreak of war, recruiting into the TF was acknowledged to be very slow. Without service papers the subject is a minefield but there is a good chance that my two pieces of evidence give a firm year of 1909 to work on. I am indebted to colleague Paul Nixon for the numbering information on the battalion.


"Disembodied" is a strange word and concept, and springs from the reserve forces becoming "embodied" when a "proclamation calling them out on permanent service is issued in times of national danger" [precis from Manual of Military Law 1914]. Strictly speaking the words refer to the unit and not the man.

[LarsA]

It might be of interest to consult the "flintshire roll of honour" at the archives in Hawarden. They would give details on the service of the 1/5th men, like this man (original number 931, disembodied july 1919) whose brothers trio is in my collection:


Number: L 290
DISTRICT or PARISH: FLINT
Name (Surname first): Hough, Edwin
Address: 8 Johnson St Flint
Regimental No: 240175
Unit of HM. Forces: 1/5th RWF
Period of Service: 7 years 4 months
Rank on Demobilization: Sergt
Distinctions awarded (if any): None
Special Remarks re Service (if any): ----
If Deceased or Missing (give particulars): ----
Date: 17/10/19
Signed Edwin Hough


ATB,
Lars

[eightyseven]

My great uncle, Pte 1208 Robert Ellis Johnson was in the same battalion.
He was killed by a shell in Suvla Bay, Gallipoli in September 1915, along with two comrades.
He is buried at Hill 10 Cemetery, Suvla Bay.
I have the newspaper write up of what happened, if this interests you, from the County Herald 1915.
His two other brothers Henry Owen Johnson & my Great Grandfather William Johnson were in the the same regiment.
My great grandfather was in 1/5 Bn & Henry in the 1/6 Bn.
The 1/5 Bn RWF was formed on Flint Castle & recruited around that area.
With regards to Pte Simon, he may well be the man who married the sister of my relatives who I've mentioned, her name being Elizabeth Simon nee Johnson.
Any more info please feel free to ask, I have a picture of my great uncle Bob & his medals.

[quail]

are you able to confirm attestation in 1909 please?

[Hywyn]

Pte 679 Simon was wounded at Gallipoli. He is on a newspaper casualty (wounded) list dated Oct 8th. These list were usually some weeks after the event. E.G 1208 Johnson referred to by eightyseven was on a list dated 5th Nov (killed 22nd Sept). No set pattern seen yet in terms of event to list so as to work out an event though. He does have a card on the data Lars refers if he is the one at Penllongle Cottage, Brynford. One for his brother(?) Francis Simon of same address as well.Insofar as enlistment date is concerned. In the 5th Bn 656 was 25th April 1909. 753 was 16th August 1909. May 1909 looking good?(1208 Johnson would be March/April 1913)

[Hywyn]

The John Robert Simon from Brynford is another one, his number being 1135. Who'd have thought there were so many by the surname Simon in Flintshire. Nearly as many as the Jones! :-) Maybe there is some truth in the story that Joseph of Aremathea landed on that part of the Dee with some of the disciples. (see book Keys to Avalon)Maybe he is the John Robert Simon at Green Park, Bagillt on the 1911 census.

[quail]

from research done by colleague Paul Nixon [I believe sources and praise should always be given]:

322 joined on April 10th 1908
623 joined on April 20th 1909
810 joined on 22nd September 1910
842 joined on 2nd March 1911
978 joined on 23rd March 1912
1174 joined on 4th March 1913
1442 joined on 26th March 1914
1546 joined on 4th August 1914
2208 joined on 15th September 1914
2290 joined on 2nd October 1914
2442 joined on 10th November 1914
2561 joined on 30th November 1914
2627 joined on 4th January 1915

[LarsA]

As information, I also have the trio & TEM to number 401 / 240054 CSM Bertram Davies, disembodied in march 1919.

ATB,
Lars

[Hywyn]

[QUOTE=quail;61511][I believe sources and praise should always be given]:I wasn't aware that Paul used a source other than that which many, many others have access i.e SWB Rolls and extant service/pension papers. I'll email him and ask. Thanks for the heads up.

[Old Barrian]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original query. The information was all most useful and I now know that Pte. Simon was wounded at Gallipoli in, probably, September 1915. I have now ascertained that he was married in November 1915 so was presumably repatriated to the UK after being wounded.

Does anyone know what would be the usual procedure after his recovery - would he be returned to his Battalion overseas or is it more likely that he would be posted to another Battalion in the UK?

Any facts or conjecture most gratefully received.

[Baconwallah]

I don't know how many wounded and evacuated men eventually returned to Gallipoli. But I have a fair number of men in my database who, instead of going back to Gallipoli, ended up with the 1st Bn in France. Fifty so far, and I have checked about 60% of the 1st Bn postings. So perhaps 75 all told. It may have been the norm rather than the exception.

John

[Clive Hughes]

Old Barrian,
If you are able to access the RWF British War Medal and Victory Medal Rolls at Kew (not online), using the code numbers on the MIC card, his entry should tell you with which other RWF battalions he served overseas - if at all.

Clive

[Old Barrian]

Thanks for that suggestion about Kew. Unfortunately, I'm not in that area so it might be some time before I can follow it up.

However, I've now got some documentation about his award of the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal apparently in April 1920 which shows him as still attached to 5th Battalion so perhaps he wasn't posted to another unit after all.