Lt Young MC

[jggeoff.y]

Seeking my fathers military records 2nd Lieut William Young RWF 1918 MC & Bar I understand a citation by King George v 22 July 1918 he was also serving in 2nd world War DOB 1898 Died 1970 Please advise where I can obtain info & records. I'm afraid I dont have his Army number.
GY

[Hywyn]

I would normally say that his file is at the National Archives but given the WW2 service I’ll let others advise on that score. It may depend on what sort of WW2 Service?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Anyway, regarding WW1. One brave man your father.<o:p></o:p>
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With a caveat that I can only find one William Young serving as a 2nd Lt/Lt in the RWF he has to be Cpl22383 William Young of the Royal Inniskillen Fusiliers later 2nd Lt, Lt RWF. Entered Balkans <st1:date Month="11" Day="5" Year="1915">5/11/1915</st1:date>. Usually this means Gallipoli. Date of Commission not yet known to me. Address when applying for his medals = <st1:Street><st1:address>50 Plantation St</st1:address></st1:Street>, <st1:place>Accrington</st1:place>.<o:p></o:p>
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His Military Cross citation (LG 13/9/1918)<o:p></o:p>
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T./2nd Lt. William Young, R. Welsh Fus.<o:p></o:p>
For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to<o:p></o:p>
duty. This officer was in command of a company<o:p></o:p>
in an attack on the enemy's .position.<o:p></o:p>
Although it came under intense machine-gun<o:p></o:p>
fire he rallied all ranks by his courage and<o:p></o:p>
coolness, and pressed the advance, being also<o:p></o:p>
responsible for the rapidity with which the<o:p></o:p>
consolidation progressed.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30901/supplements/11039 (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30901/supplements/11039)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
and the Bar (LG 10/1/1919)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
T./2nd Lt. William Young, M.C., 16th Bn.,<o:p></o:p>
E. Welsh Fus.<o:p></o:p>
For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to<o:p></o:p>
duty. During an attack, when the battalion<o:p></o:p>
was held up under heavy fire, he discovered<o:p></o:p>
that he was the only unwounded officer left.<o:p></o:p>
He at once collected the scattered remnants<o:p></o:p>
of the battalion and organised the line,<o:p></o:p>
spending the whole day exposed to intense<o:p></o:p>
machine-gun fire, visiting the posts, and<o:p></o:p>
•searching for men in front and behind the<o:p></o:p>
trench. It was due to his efforts that the line<o:p></o:p>
was held and the battalion was kept well<o:p></o:p>
together until relieved. His work was of a<o:p></o:p>
very high order.<o:p></o:p>
(M.C. gazetted <st1:date Month="9" Day="16" Year="1918">16th September, 1918</st1:date>.)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31119/supplements/599 (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31119/supplements/599)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Luckily, the Bar show he was a 16th Battalion man and even luckier their War Diary is available for download for a mere £3.50 from the National Archives. It’s in pdf form and there will be other Battalions so download the whole lot and then look for the 16th<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8199426&queryType=1&resultcount=9 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8199426&queryType=1&resultcount=9)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Being an Officer his movements/involvements will be mentioned so it should be easy to spot when he joined the Battalion.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I have had a quick look and can tell you that<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
1. He joined the Battalion <st1:date Month="9" Day="28" Year="1917">28th September 1917</st1:date><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
2. The MC award is declared on the 17th May. Looking back from that date may show action which matches the citation. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
3. He was wounded on the 20th October in an action where the Brigade crosses the Selle.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
4. At the end of October there is a list of awards granted for that month. His Bar to the MC is shown. Again a closer look at the diary may match the action to the citation.<o:p></o:p>
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<o:p> </o:p>
I should imagine though that his actual file would contain further details re his time at Gallipoli and elsewhere with the Royal Inniskillen Fusiliers and also the actual dates of the actions leading to these awards and also about the wounding i.e was it a ‘blighty’ etc. (He may even be shown in the Diary as rejoining the Battalion after Oct…I haven’t looked. In the event that you may be wanting a National Archives Researcher to locate and obtain a copy of his file then let me know and I’ll send you a recommendation by personal message.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Hywyn
(Hope it's the right man!!!)

[Baconwallah]

Most of this has already been said, but I can add some details.

Young W. Lt
William Young enlisted with the Royal Inniskilling Fus and as Cpl was commissioned Temp 2/Lt (27/6/17) to the RWF and posted to 16th Bn. He joined the battalion in France 27th Sep 1917, and was awarded the MC 17/5/18 for the action near Bouzincourt during Apr 1918, then was wounded in a later action, near Montay 20th Oct 1918. He was awarded a Bar to his MC 31/10/18 for the action at Delville Wood Sep 1918. Promoted Temp Lt (27/12/18) and continued to serve with the regiment.

Hope this helps.

John

[jggeoff.y]

John
Thank you very much for the info Re: Young W. LT I was not aware of his war history, just some basic details. Is it possible to trace more history regarding his background prior to joining Royal Inniskilling FUS and 2nd wourld war service. I can't even locate a birth certificate. are there any records/history about action at Bouzincourt,Montay and Delville Wood and if so where will I find this kind of information.
Many thanks
Geoff

[jggeoff.y]

Hi Gwilwil
What a star you are, thank you so much for all the info, I do appreciate your sincear effort and time spent in researching this information. He is the right man, everything seams to stack up, I agree, a very breave and modist man, he never ever told his children of his war or military actions. Our family knowkedge of his background is little, I can't even trace his birth certificate.
Many thanks
Geoff

[jggeoff.y]

Hywyn
How do I go about obtaining a copy of my Father's file 2nd LT Young please advise
Many thanks
Geoff

[Hywyn]

Geoff

The year of birth that you given (1898) was causing me to have some doubts as this would mean that he was only 17 going into Gallipoli. And then as a Corporal! Not unknown for underage men of course. He is then commissioned at 18-19 yrs old. Again, not unknown I suppose. Can you tell us how you arrived at this year of birth? I've had a look at the Death Registers for 1970 and I'm not seeing one that gives 1898 as birth year. Maybe if you can share with us where you think he was born and which area/month/year he died we could help you in locating the Birth Cert.

However, if you are happy that the Accrington address and other matters fit your father then you will need to access his file which will be at the National Archives at Kew either in person or through a Researcher. That file will answer your queries regarding his pre-RWF service etc. A quick look round that number in the Inniskillens show enlistment early 1915. This is subject to amore in depth look though. My only misgiving about the file being at Kew is the WW2 Service you quote. It may be then that the file would be at MoD etc but WW1 is my 'thing' and one of the WW2 experts would have to comment on that. What WW2 service did he have? I.E Regular Army or a UK based unit?

Hywyn

[Baconwallah]

Geoff,

Two possibilities for the service record:
1 - Check the National Archives, as already described by Hywyn. You'll have to go to Kew yourself or hire a researcher.
2 - Check the Army Personnel Centre at www.vererans-uk.info (http://www.vererans-uk.info). This is where the records of men who served post-1920 are held, and I think it is the most likely place for your father's records. You can download a request form. No need for a personal visit.

The actions mentioned can be found in the Regimental Records of the Royal Welch Fusiliers, vol. 3. The book is available through the Museum (http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/pu.html) or more easily through your local library.

Have you tried tracing your father on Ancestry.co.uk?

John

[jggeoff.y]

Hi Hywyn
Thanks again for your assistance. The year of birth 15 January 1898 has been provided by my elder Sister, (sadly now suffering from dementure) I understand he was born in Warterford Ireland, the story goes, he ran away from school to join the Inniskilling Dragoon Guards, as I remember, which I assume is Royal Inniskilling Fus ? He was, I think under age so he may have said he was older to join up, as you have noted not unknown in those days. I have no birth cirtificate, I dont even know his Mother or Fathers name I have tried to search birth records for ireland and failed so far. He died 25 September 1970 in Stockport Cheshire. The Acrington addresses are correct as far as I know he was married in Acrington Lancs 8 September 1923 I also understand his service with RWF spanned 1916 to 1944 there could have been gaps between this period prioe to call up for WW2 wher I understand he was demobbed as a captian? one thing I do remember when he came home, It was around 1944 he brought me a present all wrapped up, I had to guss!! It was round, a football! W'how. How do I go about obtaining his file either in person or via a researcher.

Geoff

[Baconwallah]

Hi Hywyn
How do I go about obtaining his file either in person or via a researcher.
Geoff

The National Archives you'll have to visit yourself, or send a (paid) researcher. Hywyn can put you in touch with one if you ask him. If you want to visit, see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/visit\default.htm for further directions and advice. Just to be sure, bear in mind that the Officers personal files are not on the Internet.

The Army Personnel Dept records can be accessed by filling in the required form(s) available on the internet, see http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html. There is a fee of (I think) 30 pounds, whether they find anything for you or not.

As I said in a previous post, I would assume the Army Personnel Dept to be the most logical place to go and look for a paper trail.

Good hunting!

John

PS The Inniskilling Dragoons were a cavalry regiment, the Inniskilling Fusiliers an infantry regiment. Two different entities. But it was not unusual for men to be transferred from cavalry to infantry (or the other way around).

[ap1]

Hi Geoff,

Just out of interest, do you still have your Fathers medals.?If you do, we would be very grateful for a picture for the gallery if that was possible. A very brave young man.

Regarding his WW2 service, did he ever mention any locations he was based at either in the UK or abroad?

Thanks

Al

[risca_boy]

Geoff
Do you have his marriage certificate? His age as well as father's name should be on there. With these details, it might make it a bit easier to trace him back.

Steve

[jggeoff.y]

Hi Steve
I'm trying to trace his marrage certificate, I'll let you know when I find out more info.
Geoff

[Hywyn]

Geoff
As regards his file then John in post 10 outlines the course of action for you to take and given the post WW1 service I agree that the MoD option should be your priority.

With regards to the Death and Marriage Certificates lets see if any of this makes sense to you.

Looking for William Young died 1970 bring a return of 71, many with other Christian names. Around 40 can be discounted as they are shown as born after 1900. Of the remainder the only one shown registered in Stockport District is in Q3 (July, Aug, Sept)and that is John William Young who is shown as born 1896 (this info of age will be as good as that given to the registrar by those registering)

Turning to the Marriage Register of 1923 and there is no sign of a John William Young registerd. However there are 5 John W Young who married and one was to a Mary J Shaw at Haslingden District in Q3 (Jul, Aug, Sept) (Ref 8e, Page 310)

Looking at the map I see that Haslingden is virtually in Accrington. Given that you are drawing blanks then that certificate may well be worth forking out for? See what address is on it etc

Hywyn

[jggeoff.y]

Hywyn
Can you please put me in touch with a researcher with a view to obtaining 2nd LT William Young personal files, any idea how much it will cost?
Regarding Death & Marriage certificates the information you have provided Re John William Young died September 25th 1970 Stockport is correct and the marriage in Haslingdon is also correct. The information on the war records we have looked up relate to him as William, perhaps they only used one name in thoes days? It seams that in later life he used the full name of John William Young, confusing!! not helping in my search for his Birth certificate. I will see if I can get a copy marriage cettificate.
Geoff

[jggeoff.y]

Al
I,ve just found out that William Young's medals were sold at Sotheby's 27 June 1973 Lot no 212 for £56 how sad is that
Geoff

[Baconwallah]

Geoff, you do not need a researcher for the MoD.

Go to http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_...e_records.html (http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html). Scroll down to the bottom line [To receive copies of Service records relating to a deceased Service person] and click where they want you to click.

The next page provides extensive instructions. Read them carefully, then in the blue square at right select the forms you need and download them. The completed forms should be sent to the MoD as instructed, together with the administration fee of £30. Then you just wait.

Can't make it any clearer than this. Good luck!

John