Alfred Davies 2nd Battalion 1900 [Archive]

ap1

02-07-2011, 13:58

Hi Norman welcome:

Obviously I don't know what you have already located. The details of the marriage in China in 1902 can be found here:

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/

Search in the military records(Armed Forces Marriages) using the surnames only Rollo/Davies

To view the record you will need to pay a small charge, once you have the detail, you can apply online for the Marriage Cert. Its possible his army service number will be included.

If he was 2nd Bn and indeed ended up in India with the 2nd Bn, you are in luck. He would served with Frank Richards RWF. Who wrote of his experiences with the 2nd Battalion in India during this time in a book called "Old Soldier Sahib" Its an excellent book, especially if you have family serving at the same time. Link below:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Old-Soldier-Sahib-Frank-Richards/dp/1843425580

Hope this helps

Norman

02-07-2011, 19:34

Hi All
Thanks very much for the info. I'll give them both a try. I'll let you know how I get on.
All I know is that he had joined "Assam Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles". But I don't know at what time. I have a picture of him and all the officers dated 1910. He was a sergt major then.
Regards Norman

Norman

06-07-2011, 18:08

Hi AP1
I have got the book to read. Have looked on findmy past, but can only look at the index of the returns, this as you say lists A Davies marrying E Rollo 1902, record is on page 216.
How do I get to page 216?
Regards Norman

ap1

07-07-2011, 08:01

Can you copy n paste the entire entry onto here please Norman? With the detail that Findmypast provide, you should be able to apply online via the General Records Office for their marriage certificate.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Norman

07-07-2011, 18:34

2467

Norman

07-07-2011, 22:09

2468

ap1

08-07-2011, 07:09

Hi Norman,

Using the detail alongside the entry for Alfred Davies's Marriage in Pekin. You can go to the General Records Office website and order the marriage certificate online. It costs about £10 I think. It should be delivered within 7-10 days. You will need to register on the site before you order. The website address is: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Before you order, please read the information below provided in the "Help" area of the findmypast website: Good luck Norman, please give us an update as you progress.

Ordering overseas certificates:

Once you have correctly identified the person you are looking for using the Overseas Records index, you can order the certificate.

Make a record of all the details that you find in the index, including

the district,(PEKIN)
volume (Army Returns - Marriages 1901-1905)
page number (216)
the year if the data is available (1902)
As the original documents are not available to the public, the copy of the certificate is your primary link back to your ancestors.
But be warned, each new copy is largely freshly made and while every effort will be taken by the General Register Office to ensure the information is correct, an error in the transcription may creep in. If the original data is too difficult to read, GRO staff will hand write the certificate. If you receive a handwritten certificate, but want to see an original signature too, then in some cases (depending on the document) you may be able to have a photocopy as well.

Simply use this site to search for index numbers for certificates and apply online (registered users only).

Once you have signed-in, found the records you are looking for and recorded the index data, go to the "order a certificate" page to order online. Please note that applications for certificates of overseas birth, death or marriage certificates can be made by post, by fax, by telephone or online using a secure ordering service.

Delivery: Overseas certificates are usually produced within five working days. For copies of certification for marriages that have taken place in countries overseas, please allow 7 to 10 working days.

Norman

08-07-2011, 17:12

Thank you very much. I give it a try. Will let you know how I get on
Norman

Brenda Kinghorn

26-08-2011, 21:59

Hi, I'm Norman's cousin who has joined in on the search for Alfred. I've attached a copy of the marriage certificate, but unfortunately it does not seem to contain his service number. How would we go about finding out any information on him that may be held in military records?
Regards,
Brenda
2499

Baconwallah

27-08-2011, 00:18

As I said in an earlier post, all I can find is a Pte A Davies 4718 on the 1900 China Medal Roll. That may be your Alfred Davies, but as only half the 2nd Bn received the China Medal he may well have belonged to the other half - which would explain the wrong rank of 4718 Davies. But then again, the number would be about right for a man born in 1876 and joining up when aged 18 or 19.

On the other hand, for a man with seven years service to reach the rank of Sergeant is unusual, although it is not impossible - Sgt Boreham did it in six years. Alfred Davies may have been, like Boreham, a very capable man.

I have checked the Great War Medal Index Cards and the surviving service and pension records on Ancestry, but found no trace of him. He may have served with another regiment, in which case it will be very difficult to find him on Ancestry. He may even have remained in India, at least for the Great War period.

Since many service and pension records were destroyed n the Blitz, the chances of finding him are almost nil. You could give the RWF Museum a try. Brian Owen, the Curator, will do what he can, but I don't think he will come up with any more than this.

John

ap1

27-08-2011, 07:58

Welcome Brenda.

This is an unusual thread. Normally John(BaconW) is having to search for a service number in order to track someones service. In this case however we have first class documentation to show that he was with the 2nd Bn at the in Pekin in Oct 1902, but not his service number. Lots of historical information is available about the Boxer Rebellion which ended in 1901, which helps build up a picture of his service. The Marriage Cert also names the SNCO's who acted as the witnesses, another line worth following, just to see what happened to them as their service progressed. I assume they were Alfred's friends.

John, would I be correct in saying that his lack of a China Medal means he may have arrived after the Boxer Rebellion ended in 1901 or is there errors on the medal roll? Could he have possibly been with the 1st Bn in South Africa?

Then he moves to India with the 2nd Bn. Again, because of Frank Richards and his book "Soldier Sahib" you have a first class account of life for Alfred, in the very battalion that he was serving with, whilst he was there. If you can get a copy of the updated version of the book(somebody have a link?) that would be useful as many more names are mentioned in the book, plus loads of interesting research is included on the characters mentioned by Richards.

Finally you have his time with the Assam Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles. That is another route of interest. I'm not really sure what happened to Indian Army Records, but an exciting route for you to follow and research.

I think it would be well worth contacting the RWF museum to see if they can assist. I would also suggest a visit to the RWF museum which is located within the grounds of Caernarfon Castle. I'm pretty sure they have an audio recording made in the 1950's of an old soldier from the 2nd Bn recounting his experiences of the rebellion, which was an extremely bloody affair. Besides that, a visit will give you a clearer picture of service in those times with the regiment.

Lots to look at and who know's, his number may yet still appear.

Keep us posted on this please.

Thanks

Baconwallah

27-08-2011, 10:34

John, would I be correct in saying that his lack of a China Medal means he may have arrived after the Boxer Rebellion ended in 1901 or is there errors on the medal roll? Could he have possibly been with the 1st Bn in South Africa?

Quite correct, Al. Only four companies of 2nd RWF took part in the campaign to relieve the Pekin legation. The other four arrived later and only served with the Army of Occupation (as we would now call it) - no gongs for them!

Good idea to check the South Africa Medal Roll. I did, and it doesn't help much. Eight men named A Davies, ten if we add AG and AP Davies. Only one is not a Pte, L/Sgt AG Davies 2451, but his number is far too low and indicates attestation in 1890-91. And again we can't be sure that it is the wrong man either: what if he joined as a drummer boy? Lowest age allowed was 14 years, which reasoning from the number might indicate birth year 1876, which would be about correct....

Of the other SA candidates, only Ptes A Davies 4223 and 4555 and Pte AP Davies 2527 (if enlisted as a boy) might qualify. The numbers of the others are too high for Sergeant's rank in 1902.

The only argument against a 1st Bn transfer is that as far as I know the first men transferred from the 1st to the 2nd Bn did not arrive until the 2nd Bn was in India.

In short, as I sometimes helpfully remark at the end of a post, 'Take your pick'.

Of the witnesses, C/Sgt Harry Yates 1880 (Ashton-under-Lyne, 3 May 1868) was the 2nd Bn Quartermaster in the Great War. He enlisted May 1878 and was promoted L/Cpl Jan 1889. In Jan 1912 he became Hon Lt and QM and was promoted Hon Capt in June 1917. He retired in 1920. And he did not qualify for the China Medal. C/Sgt E Jones was probably the Sgt Jones 3866 whose name is on the China MR.

As for the Assam Bengal Railway, it was not unusual for Time Expired men to remain in India and take a job with the railways. See Old Soldier Sahib. And by the way, the annotated edition of Old Soldier Sahib is completely sold out. I do have the text available as a pdf file, without the photos.

John

ap1

27-08-2011, 11:32

Wow! Harry Yates!!! I certainly know that name from "The War The Infantry Knew". My guess is that Sgt Davies name will appear in the Wrexham archives, but thats unlikely to happen until after digitisation.

Here's my daily "Wild stab in the dark".........Norman mentioned he has a picture of Alfred has a Sgt Maj. I wonder if its best dress, with ribbons showing? That may help to date his service better. I know its clutching at straws, but you never know?

Baconwallah

27-08-2011, 12:13

Yes, Harry Yates was quite a character. At one time he ran the soda water factory at Agra. Freemason too, I believe.

The photo is a good idea, although I do not expect much of it. At best it will show the ribbon of the China medal (yellow-red-yellow).

I have a copy of Nick Lock's article on the China campaign somewhere, will look for it. Would be good for the Vault.

John

Brenda Kinghorn

28-08-2011, 21:50

Lots to think about there! As always there are about thirty avenues to try. I've attached a copy of the photo of Alfred in the Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles, taken in 1910. The names didn't scan, but Alfred is second from the left on the back row. I would appreciate your comments on it.
I have bought a copy of Old Soldier Sahib, it's a bit of an eye-opener! The copy I have contains no photos though, would this be an older edition?

Brenda
2503

Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.

Baconwallah

28-08-2011, 23:28

Your copy of OSS (Old Soldier Sahib) is the standard edition, Brenda. There is also an annotated and illustrated edition, published by D.E. Langley and myself in 2005. It has been out of print for some time, sorry. I had a look at the internet and just now noticed that a copy is for sale at Abebooks for $109.57, which is considerably more than the original price! CQ, however, seems to have a copy left at the more reasonable price of 20 pounds, see http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=4642296. If that doesn't work out, your local library should be able to find and lend you a copy.

Thanks for the photo. Alfred has obviously made officer rank, judging by his Sam Browne. The photo is not big enough to say more; the medal looks like the China Medal, but it's hard to make out.

On further reflection, I more and more like L/Sgt AG Davies 2451. Is there any family tradition of Alfred joining the Regt as a boy soldier?

John

ap1

29-08-2011, 07:11

Great picture Brenda.

Look more closely at Alfred's lower right arm John. You can see inverted stripes, with possibly a crown or similar above. The guy to his right is also wearing a Sam Browne with Sgt Stripes. I think he is still a ranker. I might ask Richard Ward if he has any info, he doesn't visit much these days, but has an amazing amount of stuff on RWF medal rolls and associated info.

Brenda Kinghorn

29-08-2011, 08:19

Have had another look at the photo.
Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.

Baconwallah

29-08-2011, 09:19

I think I need new specs, Al. I thought it was a fold in the cloth - should have downloaded and enlarged. Still, if you read "warrant officer" instead of officer, I was reasonably close...

Good idea to contact Richard. Pity he only rarely visits the Forum these days.

John

Norman

30-08-2011, 18:35

Hi All.
I've been searching Census records and have found that Alfred was a 'Tailors Apprentice' aged 15 in 1891. Does this spoil the drummer boy theory? I've just read the book Old Soldier, very good insight into life of that time.
Norman

Baconwallah

30-08-2011, 20:17

It does rather, Norman. Another theory gone.

So. Assuming that he joined as an 18 year old, his number should be between say 4200 and 4500, which is close to the 4718 Davies on the China MR. Of course Alfred may have joined a bit later. But what I find hard to believe is that Davies 4718 was a Pte in 1900 and a Sgt in 1902. This leads me to the inevitable conclusion that he (Alfred) served with one of the companies not involved in the Relief of Pekin[g].

A, C, E and later H Coys did the fighting. Of the other coys, which arrived later, F Coy providing the actual Legation Guard from March 1901. That would probably put Alfred in F Coy, where he would have the opportunity to meet an eligible girl and organise a wedding too. Unfortunately I do not have an F Coy muster roll so cannot prove the presence of an A Davies with a number in the expected range and a rank high enough (Cpl or better L/Sgt) to make his presence as a Sgt in 1902 believable.

John

Brenda Kinghorn

01-09-2011, 11:06

I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but our uncle has a sword which belonged to Alfred and which came, I believe, from the Boer War. I don't think it carries any inscription, but I'll try to get a photo posted so that you can have a look.

I have also instructed the GRO to conduct a search for Alfred's birth certificate, so then we can confirm whether the Alfred you found in the census, Norman is actually our Alfred.
The GRO indexes are quite tricky because you can't tell from them what the father's name was, they only list the births in alphabetical order for each quarter of the year. Since the marriage cert showed his age as 26y 4m on the 7th Oct 1902, I have asked them to search for an Alfred Davies, whose father was Charles, with a birth date in the second and third quarters of 1876. It would have been so much easier if we'd had an exact birth date.

Brenda

Brenda Kinghorn

03-09-2011, 13:20

Here's the sword! It has what appears to be a snakeskin handle, and a brass rivet at the top of the blade, which could have the maker's stamp on it, but it is indecipherable.
I would value the comments of all you military historians.

Brenda

ap1

03-09-2011, 13:29

No dates on the other side of the sword Brenda or markings?

These guys should be able to date it for you.

http://www.swordforum.com

Looking at other pics, it clearly british. I found an officers one from 1892 with a similar hilt, but the basket was different. Let us now how you get on.

Thanks

Brenda Kinghorn

03-09-2011, 13:39

No other markings of any kind I'm afraid.

Brenda Kinghorn

05-09-2011, 22:41

Hi, one of the guys from the sword forum reckons that the sword is an 1821 pattern sword that would have been most likely issued to an NCO in the artillery. I'm not really sure where to go with that information :-)
Another thing that I have heard from a few relatives is that Alfred changed the spelling of his surname from Davis to Davies. I don't know how much truth there is to that rumour, but the marriage certificate showed the surname of Alfred and his father Charles both being Davies.
I'll keep you informed of anything else I come up with.

Regards,
Brenda

ap1

06-09-2011, 04:32

I think the sword may be a red herring. It's very possibly something Alfred has picked up during his service, soldiers are notorious hoarders of bits of kit that are "shiny shiny". If you can kill someone with it, even better :-) Or....He was a Warrant Officer during his India service, its possible the sword was used in conjunction with that.

Brenda Kinghorn

06-09-2011, 06:41

Yes, I did wonder if he had "liberated" it from somewhere. Think. I'll have to concentrate on the stuff I know for sure.
I still have a couple of elderly relatives to try, so I'll continue the search for photos, silverware, or ideally some confirmation of his service number.
I'll keep you informed of my progress.
Many thanks for your help and advice so far.
B

Rivers52

31-10-2011, 21:12

Hi
I am also searching for information on Alfred Davies - and his wife, Elizabeth ROLLO, on behalf of myself and my cousin in Canada, Walter G.
Elizabeth was my great aunt.
I have been in contact with Brian Owens at the museum.
I had actually ordered a copy of their marriage certificate when I came across this thread.
I had also applied to the Army Personnel Centre in Glasgow with the 4718 service number - on spec - but with little luck. I had used the wrong form! And they didn't recognize the service number.
I will try to attach the one photo I have of Alfred and Beth. Brian Owens has identified the uniform as a NCO's uniform of the RWF as the sash is over the right shoulder.
I have located birth details of 2 of Alfred and Elizabeth's children - both born in India.
My cousin thought Elizabeth was a missionary in China when they met. Given she was Scottish, this may be correct given the era. Strange that neither occupation is listed on the marriage certificate.
Hope to hear more.

cheers

Bob

Baconwallah

01-11-2011, 10:11

I'm not surprised the Army Personnel Centre could not find him, Bob. They deal with post-1920 records exclusively. The National Archives in Kew would be the place to look, in fact I did so online just now, and there is no trace of Alfred Davies 4718 (if he is indeed the Alfred Davies you are looking for) in either the service records or the pension records. No Medal Index Card either.

John

Brenda Kinghorn

01-11-2011, 11:04

Great photo Bob.
Alfred and Elizabeth had three children, as far as I'm aware they were all born in India. Their second son, Ian Llewellyn was my grandfather and their daughter Muriel Jean was Walter's mother.

The GRO has no record of an Alfred Davies, born between 1 April - 30 Sept 1876, whose father was Charles, so I have now instructed a search for the name Davis instead. Will let you know how I get on.

Brenda

Rivers52

01-11-2011, 11:37

Hi John
The APC was a long shot based on the only service number I knew - would have only worked if Alfred had continued to serve after 1920. 4718 was from the Peking medal roll. Based on this forum he was out of the RWF by 1910. So would Kew have his records with discharge from RWF? Who would have records of service in Assam..Rifles?
cheers
Bob

Baconwallah

01-11-2011, 14:54

Brenda, looking for Davis might be an idea. But there is no Davis on either the China or South Africa Medal Roll, and the photo you posted says "Davies", so I would not hold my breath.

Bob, the pre-1920 service and pension records are held at the National Archives, Kew. They can be consulted online through Ancestry.co.uk. But I looked, and there is no trace of a 4718 Davies. Many records were destroyed in the Blitz, either by the Luftwaffe or the London Fire Brigade, so it's not really surprising.

As for the Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles records, I really have no idea. Sorry. You could perhaps try the Indian Army (http://www.armedforces.nic.in/ or http://www.indian-military.org/). They might be able to point you in the right direction, but once again I wouldn't hold my breath.

John

Brenda Kinghorn

01-11-2011, 16:01

It is possible (I hope) that his birth was registered as Davis, but that he enlisted as Davies. We'll see if GRO comes back with anything in the next couple of weeks.

He won 2 cups that I know of during his time with the Volunteer Rifles: Norman has one, the Kellner Cup, I have Googled it but didn't get any results; I am in the process of tracking down the other cup, I know it does (or did) exist, but I haven't seen it yet.
Alfred fathered another child, Hugh Alexander Davies, in 1918ish. I don't know where Hugh was born, but he lived in Coventry latterly. I should search for Hugh's birth certificate, but I'm doubtful that Alfred's name would be on it.

I'll keep you posted.
Regards,

Brenda

Norman

15-11-2011, 19:30

Hi All, I have written to Kellner wine merchants in India regarding the cup. Still waiting for a reply. I'm in the the process of planning a trip to Kew, but reading John's comment, it may be a waste of time. John would Caernarfon Castle be a better bet? Brenda I'll also try and find Hugh Alexander. Great photo Bob. We'll have to get in touch.
Norman

Baconwallah

15-11-2011, 20:14

Best to begin with the Museum, Norman. If you send a request for information to the Curator (rwfusiliers@callnetuk.com) he'll pass it on to the three volunteer researchers who work in the archives at Kings Mill, Wrexham. They are very experienced (I know them) and will also be able to access the National Archives information to give you a very good idea of the success to be expected from an expedition to Kew.

As far as I know, Bob (Rivers52) has already been in touch with the Museum, so do not expect sudden new floods of information. If it ain't there, it ain't there. And do bear in mind that the 4718 identification is by no means certain. The only thing we can be sure of is that 4718's name was A Davies. There was probably at least one other A Davies in the 2nd Bn who arrived too late in China to qualify for the gong and get his name on the Medal Roll.

Good hunting, all the same!

John

Brenda Kinghorn

18-11-2011, 13:47

Hi,
I have a post on rootschat looking for more information on the elusive Alfred. Their first suggestion was Pte 4718, then I was advised to check out service numbers 6045, 2090, and 5309 who served in South Africa. Do you think that any of those three are likely to be our Alfred?

Norman, do you think Hugh was born in Wales? There was a Hugh A Davies born in Bala, Merionethshire, registered in Sept 1817 Vol 11b Pg 532.

Brenda

Baconwallah

18-11-2011, 14:31

I do not think much of the rootschat suggestions, I'm afraid. Davies 2090 had no initial that I know of, could have been A, could have been anything . Davies 5309 was W(illiam?}. Davis 6046 was indeed A Davies but served on the Tugela (as did 5309) and could not well have been in two places at the same time.

Another reason: the drafts from South Africa, available because of the end of hostilities there, only began to join 2 RWF in India, long after the Bn had left China.

Davies 2090 could not have joined later than 1888. He is not on the SA Medal Roll but is in a list of Mentions in Despatches for the Boer War. We know nothing else about him.
W Davies 5309 would have joined c.1897.
A Davies 6046 would have joined 1899.

Service or pension records there are none.

John

Brenda Kinghorn

19-11-2011, 12:57

Thanks John,

I have drawn a blank with my searches for a birth certificate for Alfred using Davis or Davies, so have instructed a search for a birth certificate for Hugh Alexander Davies - Alfred's son. Here's hoping Alfred's name is on the certificate!

I thought you'd like to see the following photo, I take absolutely no credit for it, Norman unearthed it from somewhere.

Brenda

2564

Baconwallah

19-11-2011, 18:56

What a splendid photo, Brenda. I'd never seen it before. Thanks very much.

Please keep us informed of whatever [else] you manage to dig up.

Good hunting!

John

Norman

19-11-2011, 19:31

Hi
I found this photo on this web-site. I did ask if anyone had the names to go with it, but got no reply. My colleagues and I think the chap in the middle looks very much like Alfred when you compare photo's. But he is not in uniform! How would we find the names of 'G' company?
Norman

Baconwallah

20-11-2011, 09:10

I'm afraid the names of the men in G Coy are lost forever, Norman. And even if we could find them, it would be impossible to say who the men of the tug of war team were, out of a hundred names.

Anyway, I think Alfred was in F Coy guarding the Legation.

John

Rivers52

21-11-2011, 02:34

Hi John
Thanks for your help and responses on Alfred. Having had a look at the tug-of-war team and the wedding photo, I would agree with Norman that they are the same individual. If that is correct, then it would seem Alfred was in Peking in 1902 in G company. Do the records you have show an F and G company in Peking in 1902? Both guarding the legation? But do any of these records exist - or were they lost in WW2? ie is there anything at Kew that might show an Alfred Davies in G company?
I have also looked at National Archives under China Records to see if there are diplomatic records available for the period. Even as a civilian, I would think that Elizabeth Rollo would have registered with the Legation when she arrived in Peking. The marriage itself was at the Legation and the marriage certifcate survives from those records. However I can't imagine the Foriegn Office kept records of the army personnel. How nad why she went to Peking is a mystery to be solved!
Thanks
Bob

Baconwallah

21-11-2011, 10:55

I re-checked my sources, Bob, and found that B, D, F and G Coys returned to China for guard duties on 14/01/1901. B and D Coys were sent to Tientsin, F and G Coys to Peking as Legation Guard. So you may well be right to identify the man in the photo as Alfred Davies.

There are no records I know of that show the names of the men in each company. It is not impossible that there is some sort of muster roll in the Museum somewhere, but as the archives are largely undocumented it will be a matter of coming across it by chance rather than anything else. I understand from Brian Owen that you have already been in touch. The researchers wlll keep their eyes open, but it will be a matter of incredible luck if anything useful turns up. Muster rolls are not the sort of thing I's expect to find at Kew. but one never knows. It wouldn't hurt to ask the staff if there is a chance to find anything useful.

John

jungle1810

21-11-2011, 12:09

Hello Bacon Wallah,
Re the Pekin thread.Some one may strike lucky with photos of the RWF in Pekin by looking at my web site it contains quite a few photos of the Legation and surrounding areas. the site can be found on the following link Bridgend rwf if you do a search on google, my name should appear then click on it and all should be revealed.
Regards Brian

Baconwallah

21-11-2011, 13:50

Thanks for that, Don!

John

ap1

21-11-2011, 14:30

My main issue with the tug of war picture is that the guy appears to be wearing civilian clothes?

Looking at Dons website, there is a great picture of the 2nd Bn's Sgts Mess taken in India in 1902. I had a look thru but couldn't identify Alfred. The picture is fully zoomable:

http://mdonovan.free.fr/rwf/india_extra/india_extra_archive/RWF_TajMahal2Batt.jpg

Norman

21-11-2011, 18:35

Hi AP1
Great Picture. Is there a list of names? Alfred was in Pekin on 7th Oct 1902, as this is when he married.Two sergeants were his wittnesses. Cr Sgt H. Yates & Cr Sgt F. Jones both 2/RWF. I think image of the cert was posted on this thread.
Regards Norman

ap1

21-11-2011, 19:26

Hi AP1
Great Picture. Is there a list of names? Alfred was in Pekin on 7th Oct 1902, as this is when he married.
Regards Norman

That is correct Norman. However according to RWF Regimental Records. On the 29th Oct the Battalion left Pekin aboard the transport ship Salamis arriving at Hong Kong on the 3rd Nov. Then on the 7th Nov they set sail for Calcutta, arriving on the 24th Nov 1902.

On the 7th Dec in India, medals for South Africa and China were presented to the NCO's and men of the 2nd Battalion. I suspect this may have been when the picture of the Sgts mess members was taken(a lot of the guys are sporting medal ribbons). I would point out that according to regimental records some NCO's may have been missing, as a 100 man strong detachment had been deployed to the Delhi, for duty at the Durbar some 5 days earlier on the 2 Dec. Hope this helps.

Brenda Kinghorn

29-12-2011, 11:12

What a spectacular photo!
Like you AP1, I failed to spot Alfred in the line-up.
Is there any way to find out a list of those who had already been deployed to Dehli when the photo was taken?

I have acquired, from an elderly relative, a copy of Clarence George's birth certificate ( he was Alfred and Elizabeth's eldest son). He was born in Darjeeling in Jan 1904, by which time Alfred was a Sergeant Instructor with the Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles - so no service number, I'm afraid. However it does confirm that his service with RWF ended sometime between Oct 02 - Jan 04. I would think it highly likely that he went to India with the 2nd Btn, wouldn't you?
Best regards.

Baconwallah

29-12-2011, 12:22

I would think it highly likely that he went to India with the 2nd Btn, wouldn't you?
Best regards.

I have no doubt, Brenda.

Summing up, discharge in c.1903 would indicate enlistment in 1895 (seven years with the Colours, one year added for foreign service, "for the King" as the saying went) and a number around 4500. Staying in India and taking a job with the railways was not unusual, as described by Frank Richards in Old Soldier Sahib.

John

Norman

31-12-2011, 09:37

Hi, Happy New Year to All
Is it possible Alfred was in the first world war? On Clarence wedding cert 1924, Alfred is listed as a Sergeant Major RWF. Then on Ians wedding cert 1932, he is listed as a Sergeant Major retired.
Norman

Brenda Kinghorn

31-12-2011, 10:04

Norman,
He's listed as Sergeant Major on Elizabeth Rollo's death cert as well in 1965ish (I think - from memory).
That might explain Hugh's birth - it would have given Alfred a reason for being back in the UK in 1917/1918.

Brenda

Baconwallah

31-12-2011, 13:18

Hard to say, Norman. The Alfred Davies query in the Medal Index Cards provides 16 x Alfred, Alfred E, Alfred G, 3 x Alfred H, Alfred J, Alfred S, Alfred V. With one or two exceptions, all ended the war as Privates. The exceptions were (Acting) Corporals. I also found 3x A Davies, all transferred in from, or out to, other Regts. Not eligible, I think.

Number-wise about half were Territorials, which is incompatible with coming from India to fight in the war. If that is what he did, as you surmise, there are two possibilities. He either had his old number or he didn't. As the lowest non-TA number is a post-Aug 1914 number, he must have re-enlisted and received a new number if the return theory is correct. From there on it's anybody's guess (again).

John

Norman

31-12-2011, 13:31

Thanks
For the info John. Have a great New Year.
Norman.

Brenda Kinghorn

31-12-2011, 14:55

Just unearthed these photos this morning (hopefully they've attached).
Have requested another search for a birth cert for Alfred's son Hugh.
Many thanks to John and AP1 for all your help and advice so far.

Happy new year to you all!

Brenda

Aled Roberts

10-01-2012, 22:37

I was hoping to catch up on quite a few threads this evening after my spell of being AWOL - however, I have spent ages reading through this one!

I have a few ideas, and I am pretty sure that Cr Sgt F Jones on the marriage cert is 4943 Frank Jones. I need to dig out some papers to see if I can help id "our" Alfred Davies.

One key for me please, is trying to get a clearer image of the medal he is sporting in the first picture. Where there is a medal there is a roll :)

Brenda Kinghorn

11-01-2012, 22:26

Thanks for taking the time to read this thread Richard.
Norman has scanned the original photo high res, so the attachment below is the best we can do I'm afraid.
It would appear that Col Sergt Inst H Jones, who is standing on Alfred's left, is sporting the same medal.
I wonder if he served in China with Alfred?

Looking forward to any comments.

Best regards
Brenda

Brenda Kinghorn

11-01-2012, 22:31

I've cropped it a bit more - see if that helps!

Brenda

Baconwallah

11-01-2012, 23:03

Brenda, there is a 4542 Pte H. Jones on the China Medal Roll. Does not say much, though. Although the number would be about right, we do not know if the Colour Sgt Jones of the Assam Railway was a Royal Welch Fusilier. He may have served with a different regiment.

John

Aled Roberts

11-01-2012, 23:21

Thanks Brenda.

This is what I am seeing :

The chap on Alfred's right is sporting the Queens South Africa medal & Kings South Africa Medal.

Alfred appears to be wearing a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal

The chap on Alfred's left, Queens South Africa medal & Kings South Africa Medal & a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.

Alfred is certainly not wearing a China 1900 as the suspension is not the right shape. So I guess anyone who appears on the QSA, KSA or China roll is out of the running.

I have checked the info I have for the LSGC medals, and there is one A Davies, awarded in 1921.... As the qualifying period was 18 years this man would have enlisted in about 1902/3. His number at time of award was 4178875. Further digging reveals his earlier number was 7162 - but he was originally a 4/RWF man and his Christian name was ...... Abraham

So another one off the possibilities....

Will continue to dig.

Glyn Hughes 17

12-01-2012, 08:47

I am a little puzzled by the Photograph, did S/NCOs of RWF dress in “Sam Brown Belts” in the photo front row three Officers, back row from the left, C/Sgt, Drum Major. C/Sgt, C/Sgt. I’m not an authority of Regimental dress of this period. Is this a fun photo, Officer handing over belts for photo take.
Glyn

Baconwallah

12-01-2012, 10:25

Good question, Glyn. I had noticed the splendid appearance of the WOs and the very casual dress of the officers, but did not really think about it. Alas, like you I'm no expert on the subject.

John

ap1

12-01-2012, 14:25

This wasn't the RWF. It was the Assam Railway Volunteers or something wasn't it?

Baconwallah

12-01-2012, 15:23

Norman

12-01-2012, 18:34

That's correct, Al. The Assam & Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles.

1901 formed as Assam-Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles on 23rd January, HQ at Chittagong
1917 1st April, became the 42nd Assam Bengal Railway Battalion
1920 1st October, re designated Assam Bengal Railway Battalion

John

That's spot on John. I found some report from a paper where Lt Col R S Hawkins VD recieved an award from the King, but I can't find it just now. As for the others in the photo, I've had no info on them. I must start looking.
Norman

Baconwallah

12-01-2012, 20:17

Here's the Assam Bengal Railway Battalion badge.

2600

John

Aled Roberts

12-01-2012, 20:21

Do we know where Alfred was born?

Norman

13-01-2012, 18:53

Hi Richard
Very sorry, but no, we have no firm place of birth. We only know his Dads name from his marraige cert. Doing any search for Alfred we are just guessing. He's a real man of mystery.
regards Norman

Brenda Kinghorn

13-01-2012, 20:40

According to Alfred's marriage certificate in October 1902, he was 26 years 4 months, which would make his date of birth June 1876ish. We know he was with 2nd Btn RWF at that time.
The 2nd Btn left China for India late 1902. I had presumed he was discharged in 1903ish because by the time of his first son's birth in Darjeeling January 1904, Alfred's occupation was listed as Sergeant Instructor with Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles. (Well the certificate appears to say NBMR, but I took that to be an error in the transcription - it's certainly not RWF) I've attached the certificate so you can have a look.
The photo of him as Sergeant Major sporting a LSGC medal was taken in 1910.
If he enlisted at 16, his total length of service would amount to 18 years in 1910 if his time with both the RWF and ABVR are taken into account. Is it calculated on total length of service, regardless of with whom? Or is it a possibiliity that he was seconded to the ABVR from RWF?

Baconwallah

13-01-2012, 21:42

The certificate says N.B.M.R. and it's no transcription error. It stands for Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles (HQ at Darjeeling). Apparently Alfred believed in variety.

Enlistment at 16, in 1892, would have meant a number somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3750.

Secondment from RWF to NBMR or ABRyVR/ABRyB would have been theoretically possible, I presume, but highly unlikely.

Still a mystery.

John

Brenda Kinghorn

13-01-2012, 21:49

Aaah, the plot thickens!
I thought he went straight from RWF to ABRVR, but apparently not.
Thanks for that piece of info - another avenue to try.

Brenda

Baconwallah

13-01-2012, 22:40

And the NBMR badge:

2602

John

Norman

14-01-2012, 10:11

From the London Gazette 1920

The KING has approved the relinquishmentof their temporary commissions by the undermentioned',and the grant of rank as shownbelow: —

INDIAN DEFENCE FORCE.Lt.-Col. R. S. Hawkins, V.D., and is grantedthe rank of Lt.-Col. 19th May 1920.

Could this explain the casual dress in the staff photo?

Baconwallah

14-01-2012, 11:17

I don't quite see how, Norman.

John

Norman

12-11-2012, 19:51

Hi All.
I know it's been a while, but we are still digging. I've wandered off along the way, tracing my Mothers family. Will get back on track soon.
Norman

Aled Roberts

23-04-2013, 18:37

Hi All

These may be of interest to anyone following this thread :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/14x-SHOOTING-MEDALS-ASSAM-BENGAL-RAILWAY-VOLUNTEER-RIFLES-ALFRED-DAVIS-1906-16-/330911381789?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item4d0bdaf91d#ht_11409wt_1166

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-ANTIQUE-1910-SILVER-BENGAL-NAGPUR-RAILWAY-RIFLE-SHOOTING-MEET-WATCH-FOBS-/230967524737?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item35c6bcbd81#ht_4647wt_1166

Brenda Kinghorn

24-04-2013, 13:31

Many thanks!
I'm on the case :-)

Norman

09-05-2013, 19:29

Hi All.
We now know that Alfred Davies was in China 1900-02, not only due to his marriage cert, but also his China campaign medal has just been sold by a dealer. We think he was in G coy. Are there any records at all, names on photo's ect.
Regards Norman

Blairy

12-05-2013, 22:34

Blairy

27-05-2013, 20:47

Well Brenda ...how did you get on ?

I guess we will never know ...........

Blairy

29-05-2013, 22:42

I guess we will never know ...........

I wonder sometimes why does anyone bother..........when additional info could have been added........Beats me ..

ap1

31-05-2013, 17:11

I wonder sometimes why does anyone bother..........when additional info could have been added........Beats me ..

Disappointing, especially as we alerted the family to the fact that the family jewels were being sold off. Oh well, upwards and onwards.

Norman

02-06-2013, 08:27

dcdl12976

02-06-2013, 10:28

The more awards retreived the better in my view congratulations on what you have saved for the family.

Norman

02-06-2013, 11:39

Thank you. dcdl12976
Can anyone identify the tunic worn in the pic' Alfred 1? 2984
Norman

dcdl12976

02-06-2013, 11:52

Not like any thing issued i have ever seen could it be a shooting jacket or even something awarded for shooting (a bit like the yellow jersey in cycling) ?

Dave

Norman

02-06-2013, 13:24

Not like any thing issued i have ever seen could it be a shooting jacket or even something awarded for shooting (a bit like the yellow jersey in cycling) ?

Dave

Hi Dave
Yes it is for shooting. But we have no imformation on it at all. Is it something conected to the RWF? It has a notice on "Officers match and Marksmans ???????" We are hoping someone may know.
Norman

ap1

02-06-2013, 18:27

AP1, Blairy

Brenda has been very busy just lately. We, as a family, are very greatful to you for bringing the sale of the medals to our attention. I have managed to purchase 15, my son 3, Brenda got a couple, an Aunt a couple & my sister 1. We lost the lapel badges, 2 gold medals, 1 shooting medal and the China medal. I have a couple of photo's of Alfred with the medals. I will try to upload them later. Once again thankyou.
Norman

Hi Norman,

The feedback from enquirers is extremely important, the members give up their time and energy to assist, so learning the full end story is crucial, otherwise for them it would be a pointless exercise. Nobody likes reading a book to find the last page is missing. Your thanks and update are appreciated.

Anyway, we as a group are very pleased that at least some of Alfred's property has returned to the safekeeping of your family.

Best

Al
:radar:
http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

Brenda Kinghorn

29-06-2013, 22:05

Hi, my apologies for the late reply!
As Norman said, I've been really busy lately, and because I had overlooked the notification of Norman's comment in May, I did't receive any further notifications, so hadn't realised that there were more comments, sorry.
I can't thank you all enough for alerting us to the fact that the medals had appeared on ebay. I'm delighted that we managed to keep most of them within the family.
The medals that we have date from 1906 to 1916, with the earlier ones showing him as a Sergeant Instructor with the Bengal Nagpur Railway Volunteer Rifles (up to 1910) and on the later ones he is a Sergeant Major with the Assam Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles.
Many many thanks for all your help and encouragement so far, we'll carry on with our search and see what else crops up.
Regards,
Brenda

Norman

04-03-2019, 08:59

Hi, up date on Alfred Davies (Davis) his service number was 15772. I will try to add his enlistment, service record, medal list & discharge papers.

Baconwallah

04-03-2019, 10:32

Interesting.

Alfred Davis 15772 was A/WO Class 2 (Company Sgt Major) in 2 Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regt). He only received the British War Medal and presumably served in India throughout the Great War. One page of his pension record remains.

John

https://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7021&stc=1

Norman

06-03-2019, 09:38

Hi John
Thank you. we have other records, but I can't get my pictures to load.
Norman

Richard_H

11-03-2019, 17:48

I would point out that according to regimental records some NCO's may have been missing, as a 100 man strong detachment had been deployed to the Delhi, for duty at the Durbar some 5 days earlier on the 2 Dec.
I have just read this thread for the first time. I was interested by Al’s comment (AP1 on 21/11/11) that it looked as though your great grandfather might have been part of the detachment posted to Delhi during the 1903 Durbar. This detachment was commanded by my grandfather, GFH Dickson, and I think largely, or perhaps entirely, comprised C Company of the 2nd Bn (including Frank Richards, who described these events in OSS).
My grandfather’s career in the RWF is documented in scrapbooks in the RWF museum collection, currently in Wrexham at the Museum and Archives. (The thread under “Lt Col GFH Dickson” in WWI on this website traces my discovery of these scrapbooks: Thank You, RWF Forum!).
If he was in C Coy, I think there’s a good chance that there is a photograph of your great grandfather in my grandfather’s scrapbooks. For example, there is a group photograph of C Coy from soon after the 1902/3 Durbar on page 64 of scrapbook 15. I’ll try to add a copy of it here. Even if I can manage that it won’t match the resolution of the original.

Richard

https://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7032&stc=1