Laws that work

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Having just aquired a puppy, and sitting quietly with her at 4:30 this morning, it occured to me that one Law that appears to work is that of not allowing your dog to stray. I remember as a kid, it was commonplace to see dogs of neighbours mooching around the street and in peoples gardens and it was law to have a dog licence then. Obviously it is a good law as stray dogs can form packs and are extremely dangerous.

I wonder why it is then, that laws like using mobile phones whilst driving (and arguably potentially more dangerous) are ignored and in the main unpoliced in this country. The wearing of seat belts by children including rear facing baby seats in front passenger seats with airbags or children under 12 (or 135 cm) in the front passenger seat. Things you see all the time on the road or at any superstore.

Seems to me that laws are made in this country to satisfy some sort of "target" rather than to achieve anything by its introduction other than perhaps wishfull thinking.

[5haron]

Social policing? If your dog is straying, being a nuisance or otherwise then it makes the owner vulnerable by fact that it's happening in full view of another and they're obviously unable to hide the breach of a law. Other misdemeanors, such as the ones you mention, whereas not exactly occurring in sole privacy are for instance, inside a car and as such give a false image of privacy, making it seems less obvious and the person less approachable for censure by the gen.public?

I often wonder what goes through people's minds when I see them doing stoopid things, like putting a baby in danger for the sake of gaining a few minutes.

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Good points Sharon. As you say, a straying dog is generally socially unacceptable yet what people do in the privacy of their own vehicle and with the safety of their children in that vehicle seems to be pretty much of a "tut tut" response. Both offences are governed by Law yet people are more responsive to the one that governs straying dogs, which I find quite bizzare. I believe many councils if not all, employ wardens who round up and collect stray dogs to keep them and the general public out of harms way so you have a Law that is actually "policed" without using a Policeman/woman. Perhaps there should be "wardens" who could check static vehicle and advise owners (who afterall may be ignorant of the Law - no defence) that they are breaking the law and putting their children at risk. Using mobile phones is a simple solution, if caught, the car where the offence took place is scrapped - I doubt it would take long for people to get the message because right now it is one Law (that cost us who knows what to implement) that is flagrantly being ignored.

[Barry69]

I agree the use of mobiles whilst driving is a crime, but unless it is policed it will become an excepted breech to the law, We need to ask why is it ok for lorry Drivers to still be allowed to use there CB whilst in control of 18 wheeler ? or a one manned Police vehicle with radio responce, We need the comms but must ensure we maintain a balance of the law, as government cutbacks will only increase the use of single manned police vehicles. This could well be the reason this law is flarnted and only enforced after an accident/incident :)

[sid burns]

I suppose reading the previous I have to reply..........Police officers ignoring drivers using mobile phones what an absolute load of ****!!

Firstly I must reply to single CREWED vehicles. Barry the button to operate the vehicle radio is next to the steering wheel so no hand requires to leave the wheel at any time.

Secondly you go on about using mobile phones whilst driving, dangerous activity correct!! What about when you’re eating / drinking / smoking / changing the CD / tuning into your favourite radio station need I go on? These are all as equally as dangerous, and there’s nobody including myself who can deny doing any of those activities, and there is an offence it called not being in proper control of you vehicle whilst driving.

The sad thing is if a police officer stopped and dealt with every offence he or she see’s when leaving the station they wouldn’t get more than a half a mile away. Maybe you should speak to the politicians you voted for as they make the laws not us!!

Kids without seat belts AHHHHHH not exactly a nice thing to deal with after a collision now that’s an offence that needs more punishment, I’m sure you would agree?
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[Gwyn Nicholas]

Sid, I dont think anyone is saying that a Police Officers deliberately ignore the offence, certainly not me anyway. My point is that a specific law was made to outlaw the use of mobile phones whilst driving and as you pointed out it would have been covered by the offence of not being in control of the vehicle. As you rightly pointed out that you would not get far from the station if you stopped every for every offence because we do not have a enough police on the ground to do the job. Hence my original point, what is the point of bringing out new laws that cannot be policed because of that very fact.

When I have near misses with clowns with phones (and I have had two) it maddens me that although a specific law has been made, the punishment for the offence is not severe enough to make people think twice about committing the offence. That is not down to the boys in blue (for whom I have the utmost respect) that is down to the Law makers and Judges. If a Law is passed, it should carry severe consequences or It just adds to the workload that you lads are already struggling to cope with. It is an offence to let your dog roam free, it carries a heavy fine and even imprisonment depending on the circumstances. It is not an offence that is policed directly by the Police yet it works (as Sharon pointed out- socially unacceptable). When I was a youngster it was commonplace to see dogs wandering now it is fairly rare.

The Law (not the enforcers) in this country in my opinion is "an ass". A life sentence does not mean for life, why therefore call it that. If a criminal is sentenced to 10 years for a crime, then that is the time the Judge must think is worthy of that crime, and the time required to rehabilitate. Why then release after six years so that the guy can re-offend within two weeks of being set free. Our criminal justice system was once the envy of the world, now it is at best a joke and at worst a lottery. Biggs got a life sentence for robbing a train, rapists and child abusers get less and time off for good behaviour only to re-offend. Would Biggs have robbed another train if he had been released early, I think not.

The Law is there for the protection of society. If it is ignored because the punishment is not an effective deterant, it fails in its purpose.

[Rog Ball 01]

In my job as a mobile patrol officer, sometimes I have tyo answer the fone when driving. I admit that I have been stopped by police officers for using a fone when driving, and I will admit that I have been 'warned off' by them.

I no longer use the fone when driving, if I did and got a fine points added to my loicence, I would loose my job.

[Dai 55]

Bertie,
you dont have to answer the phone if you are driveing regardless of who is calling you,and you are breaking the law,all my vehicles have a hands free installed,and your work should think about getting the same,they should think twice before calling you when driveing,Health and safety issue,
dai 55

[Gwyn Nicholas]

This honestly happened this morning at 02:30 ish. I got up to go to the loo and I noticed a flickering torchlight flashing past my front door, I thought it must be Police (our street lights are off to save power) so I started downstairs only to realise I was commando (and I dont mean wearing a green beret) so I put some jeans on. When I go downstairs the light had moved off down the street and my wheeley bin was in the middle of the road. By the time I got into the street the phantom had gone. It was suggested to me that I should have phoned the police, I replied to what end, even if they showed up and caught the guy, what would the police do to him.

To me this creep is guilty of a. Trespass b. Removing private property from private land c.( the most serious) Endangering the lives of road users . Three serious and criminal offences. In my experience from what I have read and seen on the local news it is considered "high jinks" or more seriously "anti social behaviour". How are three individual serious crimes reduced to such petty charges. Sid, your experience would be helpful here, would your officers respond to such a call or would they wait until I caught the little sh1t, gave him a "Mooltan" talking-to and then when he then complains about being assaulted, pay me a visit. Again it is not the front line boys in blue that I'm angry with, it is the system of law in this country that makes a mockery of itself, protects the criminal and to hell with the majority who are Law abiding citizens. This experience could have be extremely frightning for older folk of which there are many around these ways.

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Just read in our local rag, that the Police carried out a raid on a property in the town. A van a car and at least four officers were used. The resident was found to be in possession of what is described as "personal use quantity" and as a result recieved a "CANABIS WARNING"
The guy must be wetting his pants.

There was also an accident in the country a week or two ago where, a pensioner hit a horse with his car and drove off leaving the rider injured and the horse needing to be put down. This happened in broad daylight. The pensioners defence "I didn't see any horse". Careless driving causing injury and leaving the scene of an accident, punishment.....£215 fine! LAW, what Law.

[Dai 55]

Gwyn,
i agree to what you are saying you might as well do a crime knowing that the punishment is going to be light,however i put this down to the CPS who are a joke,a policeman/Woman on duty can only do what they are told to do,and even they know the CPS will throw it out,i have a lot of freinds in the police who sometimes get very frustrated,and a lot of it is about the peoples rights bring back the years get them in the cell and kick the S--- out of them,why bother doing the paper work and see it thrown back at you,give the police more powers Arm them all,batton guns,stun guns,hand grenades,flame throwers shoot to kill policy,then we would see law and order,
Dai 55

[Gwyn Nicholas]

I agree totally Dai. I dont blame our boys/girls in blue either. It must be a very frustrating job to do given the backing they get from the CPS and lets not forget the Judges and even more so incompetent magistrates who's punishments vary from town town for the same crimes. As I said it is the Law that is an ass.

[Paul Hinge]

I agrre with the sentiments expressed by all so far in this thread. There are not enough police officers on the streets/in cars to police such flagarant law breaking such as using mobile phones/child car seats and Sid is absolutely right it's a horrible and a life changing experience to see how the inappropriate use of child car seats impacts on the child after an accident.
People who use mobile phones, eat, drink use CB's whilst driving are putting other road users at risk by their selfishness!

Gwyn, I don't know if this is an issue where you live but dog fouling is one of the issues I have in my surgeries week in, week out. I have two dogs (westies) everytime we go for a walk (at least once a day) those poo bags are in the pocket to pick up their mess and taken home and disposed of properly. Now I'm finding that on the most popular walks dog owners are now being so lazy as to hang these full bags off trees along the path.....does anyone else experience this?:arghh:

Hingey

[5haron]

Interesting what you say about the dog fouling, Hingey. We have always had a sporadic problem here, probably because we live opposite a park and dog-walkers pass by daily. A few months ago it escalated greatly and the neighbourhood noticed that it conincided with arrival of one of the less sociable neighbours' new dog. After a couple of months and a number of near misses with the turd piles left by my back gate, I decided to take action...but how? Said neighbour is not the easiest to approach and by doing so, we ran the risk of "vengeance poo" :) Eventually I contacted the local authority and the Community Police Officer, asked them if they'd mind if I started a flyer campaign and could I use their numbers for people to contact if they saw the culprit allowing his dog to defecate uncontrolled. Answer: a resounding Go For It.
So I wrote a very nice message to the neighbours addressing the issue, emphasized the social consequences. Mentioning the diseases caused by dog faeces and finishing with the amount of the fine the dog owner would pay when caught n the act. Kindly asking them to contact the authorities, who were aware of the issue.Printed out a wad of flyers and Pat and I posted them through the doors.
It seemed to stop, a week later Patty was having a late night cigar outside when he saw said neighbour letting his dog foul the shared entryway to our back gates. He waited and the lad went inside, so Pat came in and got his phone, he meant to note the boys house nr and call the complaint in the following day. When he went back outside, the lad was there picking up the doggy doo-doo. He'd gone in to get a plastic bag.
So, this non- confrontational approach worked wonders.
Social policing!

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Dog fouling has got better generally in my area but there are those idle owners who expect their dog to be "housetrained" but are happy with the animal leaving it's mess anywhere else. It is of course an offence that carries a fine but yet again there are not many wardens around and these people know it. We did have a lot of bags thrown into trees along the local dog walk but with the introduction of proper bins this has been reduced. (it took a while but the council came through in the end)

Generally speaking though, I think the majority of dog owners (as in all walks of civilized life) are respectful of others and clean up after their dogs, unpleasant as it is. What a world this would be if that small minority, whether it be dog owner, mobile phone user, drug abuser, thief etc etc joined the rest of the decent law abiding community. No need for Police and Sid (younger brother of Larry) could happily retire knowing his duty once again is done.

[Dai 55]

i have lots of respect for dog lovers who buy them because they love them and wont them to be part of the family,take them out exercise them train them and clean up there mess,the problem is animals are not birthday/xmas presents you should only get one if you really are going to look after it,but it is generally these people who dont wont to train/exercise the dog and let it S--- anywere and dont pick it up,am i right or wrong but this is the generall feeling i get i have seen it so many times,i believe you should have a licence to own a dog and a full vetting review should happen before a dog is sold,
Dai 55

[parrot]

Dai
I have been breeding and showing golden retrievers for 23 years and can assure you all responsible breederes do vet their potential puppy buyers. It is the puppy farmers that sell indicriminately. We have lobbied parliament and the kennel club to shut these places down but they tuirn a deaf ear and the kennel club won't do it because of the revenue it brings in ( puppy registration fees ) I for one would not sell a puppy to anyone without knowing everything i could about them and i could name hundreds of others who do the same. The problem is that people are too idle and care nothing for other people or the thousands who do clean up after their dogs

[Gwyn Nicholas]

You are so right Dai. I know a couple who bought a puppy, they both work so the puppy is left alone all day. It is not allowed upstairs or in the lounge so spends it life in the kitchen. The other day they came home to find that the puppy had chewed a number of items to within an inch of their lifespan. Their reaction was that they must have been unlucky in their selection of dog from the litter. A perfect example of people who should not be allowed to have a dog and support for the licence and vetting of which you speak. Dogs are not bad, like children they need training and boundries to be set for them. You only get out of them what you put in and they do need a lot of your time especially as puppies.

[davidrmac]

Gwynn , I too have recently bought a puppy . Both my wife and I work all day and she is left alone . We have a dogflap which she uses to access a secure outside area with shelter if she chooses to stay outside . She is almost house trained and at present , not allowed upstairs but does join us in all downstairs rooms as part of the family . We are constantly mopping and picking up mistakes but it's getting less and less on a daily basis . She is walked morning and evening and her poo is collected and placed into poo bins . My point is , that you do not have to be in the house all day to be a responsible and loving pet owner , my dog has her routine and she is very happy and loved by all the family .

[kevjames84]

Now there are some laws that will probably never work, “PUPPY FARMING” I total agree with Paul about responsible breeders, but all to often I see the so called casual or responsible breeder turn into a puppy farmer (it's an easy money thing). Daily I take in ex breading dogs from all over Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, the two worst counties in the United Kingdom for this activity. To give you and example a very well respected member of the Royal Welch and a very good friend who has sadly passed away was a prolific puppy farmer (no names). One of my own rescue dogs came into the our rescue at 7 or 8 months of age (still a puppy) with a litter of her own, after the pups had weaned I decided to keep her. With regard to breeders vetting potential owners I was never vetted to have my two springer pups now 2 years and 18 months. We in Many Tears always home vet our potential adopters and have a network of vetters country wide so no one can slip through the “unsuitable net”.
On an other of the posts I must admit to placing a poo bag at a specific point on my walks sometimes but only when I know that I can pick it back up on my way back, walking 4 mad working dogs for a few hours at a time does have it's draw backs and one of them is that there are no bins on some of the routes so if they do their business early on the walk I'll sometimes leave them and pick them up on the way back. SORRY

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Dave I agree you dont have to be indoors all day with a dog/puppy to be a good dog owner, the example I gave what that of some owners who left a puppy in a confined area for a long period of time and blame the dog for becoming bored and chewing things. Puppies chew anything as you will know ,it is a natural part of the learning process.

What I am saying is, if you are not there to correct or have enough things to keep the puppy occupied, you have to be happy with the consequences not as my examples who blame the poor little pup. I myself lost a very good pair of shoes to my first dog who was left alone during the day - my fault for leaving them where he could get at them. If you blame the pup for doing what comes natural to it, you dont understand the animal you have therefore as Dai suggests, should you really have a dog, especially one of the larger and potentially dangerous breeds. There is a young lass near me with a small child, a baby and a large staffie cross that drags her and her pushchair to the school each morning, I hope I am wrong but I forsee something potentially horrendous in the making.

[parrot]

Kev
You will find that most respected breeders will actually have waiting list of potential puppy buyers. I had a lady wait over 2 years for one off me. Was the person you bought your springers off reputable? Also i only breed a litter when i want to retain one for myself. i agree inso far as there are far too many people breeding thinking they are going to make a fast buck and know absolutely nothing of caring for a bitch in whelp or when she is lactating or indeed how to rear the puppies (weaning and worming etc) Dangerous dog breeds are a very emotive subject. A lot of the problems stem from bad breeding. people will mate a bitch to a dog because it lives a few doors down notknowing nothing about the pedigrees. If people line breed they know exactly what the puppies look like and their temprements

[kevjames84]

I totally agree Paul, and yes my springer bitch was bought from a very good reputable breeder and from a specific shoot, my springer dog was however bought from a South Wales Police officer who was a casual breeder. I was in work today when a very nice lady (on the face of it) came I to give up a lhasa apso and a Bichon, she stated that she could no longer look after them, but after a little digging it was clear that the poor dogs had run out of usefulness, she admitted to keeping a pup back from each to breed again. We obviously took in the dogs because that’s what we do “rehome the unwanted”.
I hope you continue to be one of the few conscientious breeders, as I suspect you will as you clearly have a vested interest in your dogs welfare
Kev

[parrot]

Kev
People like that totally sicken me. However i do know of people myself who do that once the bitches are pst 8yrs of age and can't be bred from anymore. i once once advised to get rid of a bitch i owned because i'd had to have her spayed at only 3 yrs old. Needless to say she stayed with till she passed away at 13.
Good luch with the rescue Kev
Parrot